I'm a collector and I'm glad investors/speculators are branched off since they're getting cards for entirely different reasons. I like my copies of Beta whatevers that are practically unplayable today and the other ones that are playable aren't even for trade/sale.
While there certainly is a class of speculators and investors that do some harm to the game, there are also a good number of collectors and investors that support the game almost more than anyone else.
What is a store owner if not an investor?
While store owners will vary a great deal on how speculative they would be in much of their investment, and how much of their inventory's value and worth are tied up in the singles market, it is a significant portion of what the average player and collector is going to expect from a store, and a well stocked store that has most of what a player needs at a reasonable price is going to be looked upon with higher esteem than the same space with almost nothing in the way of a collection of singles.
Internet Websites are investors.
Mtgotraders and all of the big bot-chains on MTGO are investors. All of these people that have invested significant sums into the game have done a great deal in increasing the access and availablity of specific cards to players. Yes, all of these things do come at a cost, but most players will happily accept it because there's a lot of added value.
Collectors are not a problem at all. They have a way that they enjoy the game, and it's just as valid as anyone else's. Any complaints to the contrary are just a bunch of sour grapes from a number of entitled whiners who are angry because someone else has a shiny toy that they want.
Investors and spectulators aren't all that problematic either... unless they provide no value. That's the area that's giving them the black eye, as well as the group that's somewhat swelling along with the growth of the playerbase.
This group of people want to "get rich quick" and do so on the backs of others. It's the same group of people who read pack to power articles and now want to ALWAYS be trading up and aggressively trading for value, while providing absolutely none.
Now, this isn't even all the players that don't fit in the aforementioned catagories... I know lots of heavily invested players that are great boons and cornerstones of their various communities, maintain HUGE collections that they're typically happy to share out among their trusted friends... while they may have the general look of providing no value, they're actually bouying a large network of players who may not have been able to play/compete if not for the loans of cards.
Fantastic post. Most of the complainers are only able to look at the game through a single lens--which is that of "I cant afford to buy these expensive cards that are getting more expensive". Which is understandable, as youre facing a mountain from the foot of it. What these people lack sight of though is the way the secondary market postively affects stores and store owners, especially Magic-centric ones, just like you say. Alot of stores, especially the busy ones, do alot of their revenue from the buying and selling of singles--both short and long term. No stores, no place to play and gather with friends--the game wont have a very long lifespan after that.
Fantastic post. Most of the complainers are only able to look at the game through a single lens--which is that of "I cant afford to buy these expensive cards that are getting more expensive"..
Did you even read what has been said so far in this discussion?
When people like you stop thinking like this - making up gross generalizations about people who express opinions you disagree with [and in complete ignorance of what has actually been said] then we can actually get somewhere, and *I dunno* HAVE A DISCUSSION.
Seriously.
IF anything, YOU [and people who think like you] are looking at it through a single lense of "my opinion is right, others are [insert generalization here] - facts be damned"... unlike your assumption, the facts - including past posts from both sides of the debate - are all there. People have make varying opinions - many have nothing to do with being able to afford it themselves - and for you to ignore that, IMO of course, makes me hard to see how your post is relevant.
While there certainly is a class of speculators and investors that do some harm to the game, there are also a good number of collectors and investors that support the game almost more than anyone else.
What is a store owner if not an investor? ...
By"Investors" i'm pretty sure he was talking about people who invest in the way he described and not people who are in some way invested in MTG. I think you actually agree with him and me that the problem isn't the people some much as it the ability for them to make investments in MTG that are bad for MTG.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Fantastic post. Most of the complainers are only able to look at the game through a single lens--which is that of "I cant afford to buy these expensive cards that are getting more expensive".
Already have a $8000ish collection that I bought most of it for significantly less, and I now have most of what I want barring some foil and collection wants which wouldn't become cheaper for me through reprints anyway. Nice try though.
@Dresden
I feel like you're not really addressing the central point of PosterX's argument, which while clumsily stated, is that there is a noted difference between a collector, and a, shall we call them investor in the game. And in my opinion there absolutely is an issue with the company catering to people who decided the best place for their retirement fund was a piece of cardboard from a children's card game, especially when older formats are dying(at least locally) as a result of it.
Fair enough. Hm, welp that's a bit of a loaded question so let's take that one piece at a time. From what I reckon, here are the separate issues you brought up:
* Difference between collectors vs serious investors, i.e. retirement fund
* Does this type of individual, either of them, result in older formats dying (at least locally)?
* Wotc caters to such individuals, either of them?
I'll give my responses to these below:
* Is wotc catering to such individuals?
I'd have to say no, it's pretty balanced at this point in time. The M.R. article poses the balance between the people who want the RL and the people who don't. I think the creation of the modern format and demonstrated intent in the form of the MM series of reprints makes it clear that for sets going forward, the intent is to reprint, i.e. cater to you guys, so long-term it's actually going against collector/investor individuals - we all know that when collecting any modern-legal sets, especially sets with big-money cards that the set is quite likely to diminish in value over time. You guys won the reprint war going forward so if anything, it's pretty biased towards your side ^^
* Does this type of individual, either of them, result in older formats dying (at least locally)?
Hm, this is a pretty serious issue that I feel the need to address. You are saying that some individual(s) can buy/trade for the legacy cards locally and just hoard them or something, resulting in some harm to the game. Speaking for myself locally, there aren't a huge number of individuals playing the legacy format and also a small number of such individuals actually have the cards I'd have wanted. Consequently from the get-go I decided to do most of my trading online and thus don't leech off the local cardpool in any form. Many of the local players I know do the same, for the same reasons and one could argue that due to our trading and buying online we are expanding the local legacy cardbase, especially on a semi-regular basis when we trade staples off for standard cards that are or may become legacy staples as well, i.e. deathrite shaman, some notable planeswalkers, etc. Also, when I attend legacy events, due to my owning several different complete legacy decks, I'm willing, able (and have done this several times already) to loan people complete legacy decks so I'd say that's resulting in older formats not dying. In fact, due to my collection alone I can guarantee the format doesn't 'die' in my area for lack of cards since I can lend out close to a dozen competitive decks, which is actually almost double the legacy attendance at my lgs.
* Difference between collectors vs serious investors, i.e. retirement fund
There might be some differences to these indeed worth discussing but I have not actually met or seen such extreme individuals. First off, let's talk about retirement-level funds since I feel we might have a disconnect here. Nobody, absolutely nobody I know does mtg investing on even a ... say, $50k scale so by no means are we talking about anything close to retirement-level unless we are seriously considering five figures as sufficient for retirement. It is due to inflated concerns of actual buying power that I posited a comparison a few pages back between buying mtg and buying a house b/c after all, if you're swinging that level of cash, you should be similarly worried about value depreciation. Anyway, I know some of the financial writers people read articles from online and they aren't swinging anywhere close to a $50k figure (pm me for details and if you know guys, any at all, who 'invest' in mtg in figures like these or above, send me a pm b/c I'm curious to know!)
So let's start with something more basic, say $5k, which is almost the roth ira contribution limit for qualified individuals and this seems reasonable as an 'investment'. Do some people 'invest' in mtg at these levels? For the primary purpose of financial appreciation? Hrm. Do they buy the cards? Sure. How many say, underground seas can you buy with 5k? 45 if you get them pretty cheap? That's really not making much of a dent in the overall numbers and it's ... a bit of a stretch to say this is killing your local game since everybody presumably has access to the internet and the lgs stock, no? Also, while we're on the subject of holding card stock, do you want to consider maybe blaming the stores of the same things you are blaming investors, collectors, etc. of, i.e killing the format(s)? After all, stores generally hold >$5k of legacy cards, they certainly try to take advantage of the customer by selling for retail prices and buying at buylist prices but I haven't really seen much discussion on the legions of new mtg stores and the stock of cards they hold as contributing to rising prices in mtg or whatnot
* Is wotc catering to such individuals?
I'd have to say no, it's pretty balanced at this point in time. The M.R. article poses the balance between the people who want the RL and the people who don't. I think the creation of the modern format and demonstrated intent in the form of the MM series of reprints makes it clear that for sets going forward, the intent is to reprint, i.e. cater to you guys, so long-term it's actually going against collector/investor individuals - we all know that when collecting any modern-legal sets, especially sets with big-money cards that the set is quite likely to diminish in value over time. You guys won the reprint war going forward so if anything, it's pretty biased towards your side ^^
I'll absolutely agree with you here, you're right with modern legal sets going forward WotC does seem to be siding with the player, but that does nothing to revive Vintage, or rejuvenate Legacy. Whats being done for those that prefer true eternal formats, over the modern ones?
* Does this type of individual, either of them, result in older formats dying (at least locally)?
Hm, this is a pretty serious issue that I feel the need to address. You are saying that some individual(s) can buy/trade for the legacy cards locally and just hoard them or something, resulting in some harm to the game. Speaking for myself locally, there aren't a huge number of individuals playing the legacy format and also a small number of such individuals actually have the cards I'd have wanted. Consequently from the get-go I decided to do most of my trading online and thus don't leech off the local cardpool in any form. Many of the local players I know do the same, for the same reasons and one could argue that due to our trading and buying online we are expanding the local legacy cardbase, especially on a semi-regular basis when we trade staples off for standard cards that are or may become legacy staples as well, i.e. deathrite shaman, some notable planeswalkers, etc. Also, when I attend legacy events, due to my owning several different complete legacy decks, I'm willing, able (and have done this several times already) to loan people complete legacy decks so I'd say that's resulting in older formats not dying. In fact, due to my collection alone I can guarantee the format doesn't 'die' in my area for lack of cards since I can lend out close to a dozen competitive decks, which is actually almost double the legacy attendance at my lgs.
Is your LGS small? By which I mean is that about average attendance for all tourneys or just legacy? If those are the only the legacy numbers do you think prices are a contributing factor, or do you believe its some other issue with legacy? And besides my point wasn't that there was some local MTG kingpin buying up all the legacy staples destroying the local cardpool, but rather since there are those (this guy), whose hoarding, along with WotC's policy against reprints, drives prices, and thus the entry barrier to Legacy(never mind Vintage) into the stratosphere.
And its awesome that you're generous enough to lend out your decks. Now just convince that guy in the video, lol.
* Difference between collectors vs serious investors, i.e. retirement fund
There might be some differences to these indeed worth discussing but I have not actually met or seen such extreme individuals. First off, let's talk about retirement-level funds since I feel we might have a disconnect here. Nobody, absolutely nobody I know does mtg investing on even a ... say, $50k scale so by no means are we talking about anything close to retirement-level unless we are seriously considering five figures as sufficient for retirement. It is due to inflated concerns of actual buying power that I posited a comparison a few pages back between buying mtg and buying a house b/c after all, if you're swinging that level of cash, you should be similarly worried about value depreciation. Anyway, I know some of the financial writers people read articles from online and they aren't swinging anywhere close to a $50k figure (pm me for details and if you know guys, any at all, who 'invest' in mtg in figures like these or above, send me a pm b/c I'm curious to know!)
By saying 'retirement fund' I was engaging in hyperbole, a rhetorical device with which you exaggerate your point, in order to make it clear. To state more plainly, the game is damaged by WotC's catering to a group of people who feel entitled to a return on investment, though rather than investing in bonds or gold, or any number of other things, with a more stable, nay almost guaranteed Roi, they chose to buy a piece of cardboard.
So let's start with something more basic, say $5k, which is almost the roth ira contribution limit for qualified individuals and this seems reasonable as an 'investment'. Do some people 'invest' in mtg at these levels? For the primary purpose of financial appreciation? Hrm. Do they buy the cards? Sure. How many say, underground seas can you buy with 5k? 45 if you get them pretty cheap? That's really not making much of a dent in the overall numbers and it's ... a bit of a stretch to say this is killing your local game since everybody presumably has access to the internet and the lgs stock, no? Also, while we're on the subject of holding card stock, do you want to consider maybe blaming the stores of the same things you are blaming investors, collectors, etc. of, i.e killing the format(s)? After all, stores generally hold >$5k of legacy cards, they certainly try to take advantage of the customer by selling for retail prices and buying at buylist prices but I haven't really seen much discussion on the legions of new mtg stores and the stock of cards they hold as contributing to rising prices in mtg or whatnot
Local game stores sell cards (generalization I'm sure there are some bad eggs out there) at a fair price given the current state of the secondary market, as do SCG and TCG and any of the other online outfits that I'm aware of. And you're right again the hoarders aren't damaging the cardpool. Legacy cards are available, just at prices that most consider unattainable. Last I've been to my local game store, they were selling Underground Sea for $200, Starcity has a playset that someone scribbled on for $600. I know that my personal Magic budget is nowhere near those prices, nor would I spend that much on ONE card. Many others seem to feel the same.
And besides my point wasn't that there was some local MTG kingpin buying up all the legacy staples destroying the local cardpool, but rather since there are those (this guy), whose hoarding, along with WotC's policy against reprints, drives prices, and thus the entry barrier to Legacy(never mind Vintage) into the stratosphere.
That guy that you linked to is the type of person I don't like, a showboating, Hoarder who probably doesn't even play the game... It hurts ANYONE trying to break into an eternal format because the staple cards are so scarce and so expensive on top of that, you're lucky if you can even FIND those cards, but good luck trying to get them for a decent price...
EDIT: I should clarify, I have nothing against collectors, but honestly, I have NEVER seen anyone collect anything besides cheap junk rares or useless pet cards, Usually, the collectors i've met only keep a playset of stuff in case they want to play, and usually get rid of everything else that they have extra, at MOST i've seen people with 2 playsets of FoW... and 5 of each dual (the extra is for EDH/Cube). I have nothing against collectors, but when your intent obviously lies in placing a stranglehold on the game for insane amounts of money hoping to retire on pieces of cardboard instead of, you know, buying stocks which are more reliable, you don't deserve my respect.
Fantastic post. Most of the complainers are only able to look at the game through a single lens--which is that of "I cant afford to buy these expensive cards that are getting more expensive". Which is understandable, as youre facing a mountain from the foot of it. What these people lack sight of though is the way the secondary market postively affects stores and store owners, especially Magic-centric ones, just like you say. Alot of stores, especially the busy ones, do alot of their revenue from the buying and selling of singles--both short and long term. No stores, no place to play and gather with friends--the game wont have a very long lifespan after that.
Did you even read what has been said so far in this discussion?
When people like you stop thinking like this - making up gross generalizations about people who express opinions you disagree with [and in complete ignorance of what has actually been said] then we can actually get somewhere, and *I dunno* HAVE A DISCUSSION.
Seriously.
IF anything, YOU [and people who think like you] are looking at it through a single lense of "my opinion is right, others are [insert generalization here] - facts be damned"... unlike your assumption, the facts - including past posts from both sides of the debate - are all there. People have make varying opinions - many have nothing to do with being able to afford it themselves - and for you to ignore that, IMO of course, makes me hard to see how your post is relevant.
By"Investors" i'm pretty sure he was talking about people who invest in the way he described and not people who are in some way invested in MTG. I think you actually agree with him and me that the problem isn't the people some much as it the ability for them to make investments in MTG that are bad for MTG.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Already have a $8000ish collection that I bought most of it for significantly less, and I now have most of what I want barring some foil and collection wants which wouldn't become cheaper for me through reprints anyway. Nice try though.
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UR Melek
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Fair enough. Hm, welp that's a bit of a loaded question so let's take that one piece at a time. From what I reckon, here are the separate issues you brought up:
* Difference between collectors vs serious investors, i.e. retirement fund
* Does this type of individual, either of them, result in older formats dying (at least locally)?
* Wotc caters to such individuals, either of them?
I'll give my responses to these below:
* Is wotc catering to such individuals?
I'd have to say no, it's pretty balanced at this point in time. The M.R. article poses the balance between the people who want the RL and the people who don't. I think the creation of the modern format and demonstrated intent in the form of the MM series of reprints makes it clear that for sets going forward, the intent is to reprint, i.e. cater to you guys, so long-term it's actually going against collector/investor individuals - we all know that when collecting any modern-legal sets, especially sets with big-money cards that the set is quite likely to diminish in value over time. You guys won the reprint war going forward so if anything, it's pretty biased towards your side ^^
* Does this type of individual, either of them, result in older formats dying (at least locally)?
Hm, this is a pretty serious issue that I feel the need to address. You are saying that some individual(s) can buy/trade for the legacy cards locally and just hoard them or something, resulting in some harm to the game. Speaking for myself locally, there aren't a huge number of individuals playing the legacy format and also a small number of such individuals actually have the cards I'd have wanted. Consequently from the get-go I decided to do most of my trading online and thus don't leech off the local cardpool in any form. Many of the local players I know do the same, for the same reasons and one could argue that due to our trading and buying online we are expanding the local legacy cardbase, especially on a semi-regular basis when we trade staples off for standard cards that are or may become legacy staples as well, i.e. deathrite shaman, some notable planeswalkers, etc. Also, when I attend legacy events, due to my owning several different complete legacy decks, I'm willing, able (and have done this several times already) to loan people complete legacy decks so I'd say that's resulting in older formats not dying. In fact, due to my collection alone I can guarantee the format doesn't 'die' in my area for lack of cards since I can lend out close to a dozen competitive decks, which is actually almost double the legacy attendance at my lgs.
* Difference between collectors vs serious investors, i.e. retirement fund
There might be some differences to these indeed worth discussing but I have not actually met or seen such extreme individuals. First off, let's talk about retirement-level funds since I feel we might have a disconnect here. Nobody, absolutely nobody I know does mtg investing on even a ... say, $50k scale so by no means are we talking about anything close to retirement-level unless we are seriously considering five figures as sufficient for retirement. It is due to inflated concerns of actual buying power that I posited a comparison a few pages back between buying mtg and buying a house b/c after all, if you're swinging that level of cash, you should be similarly worried about value depreciation. Anyway, I know some of the financial writers people read articles from online and they aren't swinging anywhere close to a $50k figure (pm me for details and if you know guys, any at all, who 'invest' in mtg in figures like these or above, send me a pm b/c I'm curious to know!)
So let's start with something more basic, say $5k, which is almost the roth ira contribution limit for qualified individuals and this seems reasonable as an 'investment'. Do some people 'invest' in mtg at these levels? For the primary purpose of financial appreciation? Hrm. Do they buy the cards? Sure. How many say, underground seas can you buy with 5k? 45 if you get them pretty cheap? That's really not making much of a dent in the overall numbers and it's ... a bit of a stretch to say this is killing your local game since everybody presumably has access to the internet and the lgs stock, no? Also, while we're on the subject of holding card stock, do you want to consider maybe blaming the stores of the same things you are blaming investors, collectors, etc. of, i.e killing the format(s)? After all, stores generally hold >$5k of legacy cards, they certainly try to take advantage of the customer by selling for retail prices and buying at buylist prices but I haven't really seen much discussion on the legions of new mtg stores and the stock of cards they hold as contributing to rising prices in mtg or whatnot
I'll absolutely agree with you here, you're right with modern legal sets going forward WotC does seem to be siding with the player, but that does nothing to revive Vintage, or rejuvenate Legacy. Whats being done for those that prefer true eternal formats, over the modern ones?
Is your LGS small? By which I mean is that about average attendance for all tourneys or just legacy? If those are the only the legacy numbers do you think prices are a contributing factor, or do you believe its some other issue with legacy? And besides my point wasn't that there was some local MTG kingpin buying up all the legacy staples destroying the local cardpool, but rather since there are those (this guy), whose hoarding, along with WotC's policy against reprints, drives prices, and thus the entry barrier to Legacy(never mind Vintage) into the stratosphere.
And its awesome that you're generous enough to lend out your decks. Now just convince that guy in the video, lol.
By saying 'retirement fund' I was engaging in hyperbole, a rhetorical device with which you exaggerate your point, in order to make it clear. To state more plainly, the game is damaged by WotC's catering to a group of people who feel entitled to a return on investment, though rather than investing in bonds or gold, or any number of other things, with a more stable, nay almost guaranteed Roi, they chose to buy a piece of cardboard.
Local game stores sell cards (generalization I'm sure there are some bad eggs out there) at a fair price given the current state of the secondary market, as do SCG and TCG and any of the other online outfits that I'm aware of. And you're right again the hoarders aren't damaging the cardpool. Legacy cards are available, just at prices that most consider unattainable. Last I've been to my local game store, they were selling Underground Sea for $200, Starcity has a playset that someone scribbled on for $600. I know that my personal Magic budget is nowhere near those prices, nor would I spend that much on ONE card. Many others seem to feel the same.
and the first time i heard retirement fund... in the context of magic cards.
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That guy that you linked to is the type of person I don't like, a showboating, Hoarder who probably doesn't even play the game... It hurts ANYONE trying to break into an eternal format because the staple cards are so scarce and so expensive on top of that, you're lucky if you can even FIND those cards, but good luck trying to get them for a decent price...
EDIT: I should clarify, I have nothing against collectors, but honestly, I have NEVER seen anyone collect anything besides cheap junk rares or useless pet cards, Usually, the collectors i've met only keep a playset of stuff in case they want to play, and usually get rid of everything else that they have extra, at MOST i've seen people with 2 playsets of FoW... and 5 of each dual (the extra is for EDH/Cube). I have nothing against collectors, but when your intent obviously lies in placing a stranglehold on the game for insane amounts of money hoping to retire on pieces of cardboard instead of, you know, buying stocks which are more reliable, you don't deserve my respect.
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