(Since there's a big long thread bashing collectors, most of which belongs in the 'reserved list discussion' thread, I feel like making a separate thread showing some pro's of the collectors that nobody ever wants to admit in public)
Call me a collector - it isn't how I started but I guess it's what it is today. You probably think I started by cracking beta P9 and holding them for decades but this is not the case for many of us. I started playing mtg back in the day when duals were $5 and I could hardly afford a single $25 shivan dragon (I traded about 3 duals for my single one - revised, btw), not to mention the $100 lotuses which everybody thought was ridiculous for a piece of cardboard and no, there wasn't an internet forum to complain on I quit within a few years, not having the money to build a single competitive deck. Not ONE and this is including the new brand-new Type 1.5 format at the time, of which tier decks were probably $100. I was not one of those lucky ones who kept/traded for/was gifted sets of beta, p9, etc. so basically not much of value.
In 2010 I made the fateful mistake of opening a storage box with my old mtg cards and it was thus I found myself joining MTGS to trade cards and get back into the game. (For everybody keeping track, the prices of cards were such that I used hard-earned money to buy them, let us be clear for the record that I have no entitlement issues - I earned everything I worked for and damned if I can't spend it how I wish :P) I bought and traded for some cards and gradually as I accumulated more and more staples, I happened to pick up a set of revised, pretty much my first mtg set and the cornerstone of my mtg experiences. And I started picking up other sets - homelands, fallen empires, etc. and before long I was a full-blown collector. I've bought, sold and traded a tremendous amount of cards in my quest to improve my collection and throughout the process, numerous people have thanked me or have been eager to trade with me, in stark contrast to the hate often expressed towards collectors on the forums.
Why? I, like most collectors, pay money for the absolute junk cards that nobody wants, the type of cards people would gladly trade off and at better-than-dealer prices (because let's face it - pretty much nobody, not in edh, probably not in cube, maaaybe in pauper? is going to pay you even a darn penny for your Seasinger. Or whatever.) You know (or are one of!) those guys who want more money to buy packs, cards or eBay? I have bought hundreds of thousands of cards, numerous collections, partial/full sets etc. to help finance people's conversion of cardboard to cash. And no, I'm not a dealer - many of us aren't; so-called mtg 'dealers' don't make hardly enough. Let's break it down for real - I've helped pay for broken cars, engagement rings, bachelor parties, wedding parties, divorces and of course college This is just me, imagine what all the other collectors have done. And yes, I collect staples too. 40 force of wills? Not going to lie, I had a good amount, and no, I'm not the YouTube guy. Now down to about four. Why? That leads me to my next point:
Trade-wise, there's probably, conservatively estimating, a 10:1 ratio of "have junk, want staples" threads on the trade forums. Guess who exactly will trade VINTAGE/LEGACY staples like force of will, duals, etc. for utter unplayables, including jank in REPRINTABLE formats like MODERN? The stuff you groan at when you open packs and wish fervently it was something else. That's right, collectors. Your fellow players may balk at this but we generally can work something out. Getting into the specifics, I've traded cards from p3k, bazaars, useas, etc. for jank, partial sets, etc. and many of them in trades in which the vast majority of cards were lower than $2 each.
Disclosure time: I've held and hold a large number of a particular card on occasion, sure, probably had a lot of FoW's, etc. Feel free of trying to accuse me of 'cornering the market', 'driving up the price of cards', etc and remember that you guys who don't have FoW's (or goyfs, or whatever) curse the high price, sure but on the other hand the guys who had it were happy selling it to me around those prices and the guys I trade numerous copies of these cards to for my collection wants are similarly satisfied, so I see it as collectors making your gaming experience better.
I firmly believe in every person's right to have a goal of collecting playsets of most sets in existence A guy can dream, right? Feel free to disagree but that's how I see it. After all, some of us really just hate having to buy missing cards for decks.
Incidentally, I am in full support of wot'c stance on reprints - please reprint all modern-legal cards ad nauseam so that more people can afford them, people can play modern and the community, as a whole, can suffer less whining. Loss in value? Sure, you betcha. It's part-and-parcel of the modern format, so deal with it as you can and remember that collectors are still willing to buy/trade for your price-declining, reprintable cards even if your fellow players aren't.
Last but not least, a few words of advice from a collector: If you can't afford it, either change your mind, save or work harder. Such is your inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness and the sooner you realize how the world works, the sooner you'll achieve your goals. On the other hand, feel free to just vent your frustrations on the internet while not improving your education, work experience or bank account - it's admittedly therapeutic, even if nothing changes
I couldn't agree more. Do what you enjoy, let them complain that you are somehow ruining their enjoyment potential.
I collect $100+ decks of limited playing cards, I don't care if that makes the price go up later. I have them because I want them... Because I bought them. They are mine, not yours. I'm never gonna sell them. I enjoy having them sit on a shelf with the others. Don't tell me "There are less in circulation now. I want to play poker with them. You made them to expensive."
Wouldn't they technically not be in circulation if you kept them to play with?
I couldn't agree more. Do what you enjoy, let them complain that you are somehow ruining their enjoyment potential.
I collect $100+ decks of limited playing cards, I don't care if that makes the price go up later. I have them because I want them... Because I bought them. They are mine, not yours. I'm never gonna sell them. I enjoy having them sit on a shelf with the others. Don't tell me "There are less in circulation now. I want to play poker with them. You made them to expensive."
Wouldn't they technically not be in circulation if you kept them to play with?
Your analogy is not very useful. A more apt comparison would be if you demanded that they stop printing decks of cards and as a result people couldn't play poker. There is no problem with collectors holding onto rare copies of something. The problem is when they demand that the ability to play a game is stifled by refusing to accept that reprints are helpful.
So your argument is you buy things off people and that is 'helping' them? And that you trade expensive staples (that are only expensive because they are in low circulation due to the reserved list and collectors) for DI $2 cards?
Ok.
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I write about cube and run cube drafts on magic online.
Here, the term 'collector' is applied to people who collect, to these who collect and speculate, and to these who solely speculate. Then, somehow, even the pure-blood speculators enjoy arguments that should be applied only to the collectorship. This creates confusion.
I agree with what you're getting at. Collectors don't hurt anything about the game - I'm a collector but a gamer first. I don't collect playsets to hoarde value - I do it so I always can build any deck I want.
It's the speculators who buy up 400 copies of a cheap card waiting for it to be broken that make it difficult on the every day player who doesn't see the immediate value in the card, then has to fork over extra cash to the speculators who did. I don't necessarily see this as bad either honestly - the player had the same opportunity to pick up the card when it was cheap and chose not to.
I feel like I should point out I disagree with the Reprint List. If your collection is truly valuable of it's own merit, then a reprint won't impact that collectability. There are plenty of oddities and one offs out in the Magic community that are far more collectible than anything ever printed in an actual set. (Check out the prices on some of the Frame test cards.... sheesh!)
I agree with what you're getting at. Collectors don't hurt anything about the game - I'm a collector but a gamer first. I don't collect playsets to hoarde value - I do it so I always can build any deck I want.
It's the speculators who buy up 400 copies of a cheap card waiting for it to be broken that make it difficult on the every day player who doesn't see the immediate value in the card, then has to fork over extra cash to the speculators who did. I don't necessarily see this as bad either honestly - the player had the same opportunity to pick up the card when it was cheap and chose not to.
I feel like I should point out I disagree with the Reprint List. If your collection is truly valuable of it's own merit, then a reprint won't impact that collectability. There are plenty of oddities and one offs out in the Magic community that are far more collectible than anything ever printed in an actual set. (Check out the prices on some of the Frame test cards.... sheesh!)
You know, there's another side to this. A collector, or really more appropriately, a speculator buys 10 playsets of X card at $25 a pop, thinking it will go up in price (happens with a lot of planeswalkers), the card tanks down to $15 and they lose a ton of money.
That's why I never buy more than what I need to make my deck because it is just as likely that a card will go down as it will go up. This way, if a card tanks, I don't care because I only bought my 4 to put in my deck and my losses are minimal.
Bottom line is this. Like it or not, we live in a free market society. If John Doe wants to buy 400 of whatever card, he can and there's nothing unethical or illegal about it.
Someday, those cards may be worth nothing and he's looking at a lot of worthless paper.
For this post, I am a player that only collects chimney imps.
Am I considered a hoarder or am I doing my part to make the game better? My guess is I am not making your game any better and I am pretty sure the answer would be the same if I only collected tarmogoyf.
it IS unethical if my moral code says its wrong. Wich, FOR ME, any kind of speculation is.
So yeah, John Doe and his 400 wastelands are unethical
The problem with this is that we can call any activity that we personally don't like unethical. Where do we draw the line?
Because by your logic, I can poke holes, as far as ethics goes, into almost everything that is done in the world from having to buy food to survive to paying rent to have a place to live so you don't freeze to death.
You may not agree, but I could make a case for the above or anything for that matter.
How is any of what you said helping me? The work of having to find those crap rares you want to be sold at crap prices isn't worth it.
You neither help nor hinder my gaming. I do not really understand this point of view...
So I appreciate the thought that we aren't hindering your gaming and even though we aren't helping 'you' specifically, collectors in general are pretty helpful to others For many many people, the 'work' you mentioned is quite worth it. We all place different values on our time but trust me when I say that when it comes to a hobby, a lot of that goes out the window. For example, trading online, you frequently find yourself engaging in trades with people who are well-off and yet are proposing $20 trades that probably take at least a half hour to find in their collection, package and ship out. Not to mention the inordinate number of people who place pretty much a negligible value on their time ^^
I have no problem with collectors. People got to be allowed to do whatever they want to, but the problem lies in the fact that the reserved list actually exists. And it shouldn't, and when collectors of old were the ones complaining about chronicles etc, wizards now couldn't or wouldn't abolish it. It's a game we play, i want to be able to play Legacy with more people. I don't care that all my duals fall in price. I just want the community to grow.
But if I have the money to buy 300 houses, and theres only 350 in your town, and I try to resell you one of those houses at triple its price, its unethical. Call it a free country (LOL), call it free echonomics, but youre being a douche. It sucks. Specially if theres a law that implies youre never gonna get those houses rebuilt again. Only worse houses.
Honestly, its easy to understand. Hoarders make this game awful.
Hoarders may make this game awful, in your opinion, but that doesn't make what they do unethical.
Define a hoarder. I have 2 playsets of almost every card from every set produced since the beginning of the game because my son and myself play the game. Are we hoarders because we have some valuable cards in the closet we are not using at the moment? I will admit I will speculate with the rest on certain cards. Some you just know will rise. Especially if you have been paying attention as of late, there is a defined cycle of prices. Why is it bad for some one with the means to capitalize on such cycles? Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.
OP, do you play the game? There was no mention of it, but then you didn't specifically say you don't either.
What's your take on reprints of valuable cards? Again you don't speak much to the value of your collection in your post. Just wondering if you mind if your collection loses value if it means more players can get in to a format because the price of those cards becomes affordable?
Define a hoarder. I have 2 playsets of almost every card from every set produced since the beginning of the game because my son and myself play the game. Are we hoarders because we have some valuable cards in the closet we are not using at the moment? I will admit I will speculate with the rest on certain cards. Some you just know will rise. Especially if you have been paying attention as of late, there is a defined cycle of prices. Why is it bad for some one with the means to capitalize on such cycles? Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.
This is my wife's and my goal...we've said that anything past nine of a card (four for each of us, in case we both want a given card in a deck, and one for a binder) we can get rid of. When our sons start playing...well, hopefully three of us don't want four of a given card at a time, cause I'm not stashing sixteen of each.
I'm curious about this defined cycle of prices...which, I respect your telling me to get lost if you don't want to be risking giving your information away, but I presume you're referring to the tendency for a Standard staple to peak when it sees high-end tournament results, and for the price to drop off a cliff as it nears rotation, or the cards that support it/it supports near rotation, unless it's going to make a transition to an eternal format, like Snapcaster? If so...I get what you mean, but I haven't spent the time figuring out how to capitalize just yet...I could see selling off Standard staples while still in the format, but that would be counter-intuitive if you WANT to play Standard...I just feel like I'm missing something obvious.
Incidentally, I am in full support of wot'c stance on reprints - please reprint all modern-legal cards ad nauseam so that more people can afford them, people can play modern and the community, as a whole, can suffer less whining. Loss in value? Sure, you betcha. It's part-and-parcel of the modern format, so deal with it as you can and remember that collectors are still willing to buy/trade for your price-declining, reprintable cards even if your fellow players aren't.
hey.
i started the other thread (the problem with collectors) and i'd just like to say a couple of things:
1) the thread was never about the reserve list. or bashing collectors. read the first post and you'll see it's WOTC's reaction to collectors that causes the problem.
2) it was a thread about modern.
3) it was in fact almost exactly about the thing that you support, which i've quoted from your original post. it was also about the problem that occurs when WOTC starts acting over cautiously about reprinting what i have come to term "outliers".... really ridiculously expensive cards, that are way more expensive than almost every other card out there. the 0.5% of cards that are four or five times the value of everything else on the second hand market, blown out of proportion by different factors beyond the usual rarity/desirability thing.
just thought i'd clear things up.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
OP, do you play the game? There was no mention of it, but then you didn't specifically say you don't either.
What's your take on reprints of valuable cards? Again you don't speak much to the value of your collection in your post. Just wondering if you mind if your collection loses value if it means more players can get in to a format because the price of those cards becomes affordable?
Yup I sure do play the game, it's part of the reason I started collecting. Let me give you a couple of examples. Decks change and when it does you all of a sudden find out that you don't want to play BUG as much as RUG and now you're accumulating different cards, frantically trading/buying them a few days before an event, often at inflated prices. Having the cards already alleviates this situation. Additionally, new archetypes pop up, second sunrise, rip/helm of obedience, etc. and instead of monitoring forums 24x7 and rushing buy these cards before they jump in price in case you want to play the deck...well, like I said, you could just have them already. This goes for any number of cards - sunrise, helm, rip, SnT, etc. etc. and sure, some cards lose a bit of value when they aren't as popular (who plays tombstalker now?) but net net, if you're holding the entire set, odds are that you're not losing out.
Additionally, as a side point, I'll throw this out there - one of the never-mentioned secrets for card value retention is holding sets. Not cards, sets. There haven't been any studies on this that I know of but from personal experience I've found this to be the case and it intuitively makes sense from a risk management perspective for a card portfolio.
In regards to the value of my collection, I'm trying to make a point and not advertise because collectors get plenty of pm's already but mmm most collectors are constantly looking for cards and have their collection cards/wants in their trade lists, usually in their sig That should answer that in detail.
About the reprints, I agree 100% on wotc's policy - don't print the reserved list and print the heck out of modern. People can rail against this all they want but it's quite simple as a matter of business - take a step back and think about what they would do to maximize $ from a company's perspective and it's clear why this is the way it is. To be 100% clear, I don't mind if the modern part of the collection loses value because anybody could see this coming a mile away the moment they announced modern as a format and it's a choice to hold these cards - I consciously buy/trade for these cards knowing full well the implied loss in value over time. Everybody should be cognizant of this and we'll have less complaining when bob gets reprinted, tarmogoyf gets reprinted twice, etc.
Regarding the reserved list cards, I think I made my stance clear - I couldn't afford 'em either and I dealt with it. Born in the wrong decade? Them's the breaks, I was too and didn't have a chance to get in on MSFT stock either, so what. Or people can just complain on the forums and while they're at it on "deserving" dirt-cheap cards, might as well mention dirt-cheap luxury cars, private jets, mansions, supermodel girlfriends, etc. etc. as well because it's the same entitlement argument, just a matter of degree
@purklefluff: Your thread is unfortunately about bashing collectors, even if you didn't purposely add to it. I understand where you're coming from after reading your posts but it's kind of hard to say you're not bashing when the title is "the problem with collectors" and I wince whenever I see it It could be more aptly titled "How wotc should reprint more often to make modern a better format" or whatnot.
Agree a ton. People don't understand the reverse nature of the collector. To simply "collect" (read: have) they will trade down, their staple + time, for your jank.
Yes, it costs money, but it costs money to them too. The disparity in equivalence is what is boggling.
If you're actually a collector, then you don't care about reprints. Reprinting the Mona Lisa doesn't change the value of it, reprinting Mickey Mantle's baseball card doesn't affect the collectors of it, and reprinting Black Lotus doesn't affect the collector of an Alpha Black Lotus. There will still be only a few thousand Alpha Black Lotus in the world, and very few of them in NM/Mint condition.
People say they hate collectors for blocking reprints, but really, they're angry at the wrong people. A true collector isn't particularly concerned about reprints. What people are actually angry about is the so-called "MTG Investor", who hoards a portfolio and treats the number attached to his binder like a measure of his self-worth, to the point where he viscerally and angrily opposes the idea of even controlled reprints that don't crash prices.
If you're actually a collector, then you don't care about reprints. Reprinting the Mona Lisa doesn't change the value of it, reprinting Mickey Mantle's baseball card doesn't affect the collectors of it, and reprinting Black Lotus doesn't affect the collector of an Alpha Black Lotus. There will still be only a few thousand Alpha Black Lotus in the world, and very few of them in NM/Mint condition.
People say they hate collectors for blocking reprints, but really, they're angry at the wrong people. A true collector isn't particularly concerned about reprints. What people are actually angry about is the so-called "MTG Investor", who hoards a portfolio and treats the number attached to his binder like a measure of his self-worth, to the point where he viscerally and angrily opposes the idea of even controlled reprints that don't crash prices.
I think someone needs to do a proper write up on speculator vs collector.
If you're actually a collector, then you don't care about reprints. Reprinting the Mona Lisa doesn't change the value of it, reprinting Mickey Mantle's baseball card doesn't affect the collectors of it, and reprinting Black Lotus doesn't affect the collector of an Alpha Black Lotus...
Whoa, easy there. This is real life we're talking about, not some hypothetical straw-man argument. Taking any argument to the extreme is ludicrous and I will easily show you how I could do the same - "if you're actually a mtg player, then you don't care about prices of cards". Why should you? After all, fallaciously speaking, you ONLY care about the GAME. The excitement, the logic, the rules lawyering, etc. purely within the game. The cards couldn't matter less - tarmogoyf could be $0.01 and it could be $10k, how does it matter to you? It's the game itself right? You could be playing the same game with proxies! Most pro players borrow cards anyways or get their decks from store sponsors so who cares about the prices Oh wait, it's a collectible card game, cards have to be legal to be played in tourneys and the prices DO matter to players. Guess what, they matter to collectors too.
So that's about all I have to say about that - you want to discuss the reprint policy, please take your argument over to the 'reserved list discussion' thread and I'll answer you there. The link is here, btw: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=302108
Who the heck didn't get their playset of every zen fetch when they were all sub $10? A player who isn't serious about the game, that's who.
Or a person who didn't play at the time. and thereofre never saw fetches at $10?
Someone who doesn't have the budget to grab $200 worth of carboard on a whim?
Or maybe someone who isn't a speculator, and plays monocoloured decks (therefore having no need for fetchlands).
I fit into the latter two categories. I didn't spend $200 on fetchlands that my WW doesn't actually need. Does that mean I'm not a serious player?
No, it doesn't. I still go to every tournament I can, try my best when I do and buy new cards fo my decks when I have the money. I even established a club at my school.
If those thing's don;t make a serious player, then what does? (apart from buying fetchlands)
I started out as a player and sure enough, like all things I "get into" I began collecting. For me there is no middle ground. I may get into something for one reason, but if I like it, I end up collecting it.
I don't have an "obscene" collection or anything, but I like wheeling and dealing as much as I like brewing and playing. I am impatient as well. I try to trade for something I need, but if I can't do that easily, I just buy it.
It's a collecting card game, which means collecting cards is just as much a part of this thing as playing. So really, there should be no problems with anyone having a collection.
It's your money, your time, your collection, your choice. If people want to complain that 1% of the MTG community owns 90% of the cards, to you I say, "Welcome to the real world".
Rather than bash each other, let's just respect the fact that we all appreciate this game for one reason or another.
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Call me a collector - it isn't how I started but I guess it's what it is today. You probably think I started by cracking beta P9 and holding them for decades but this is not the case for many of us. I started playing mtg back in the day when duals were $5 and I could hardly afford a single $25 shivan dragon (I traded about 3 duals for my single one - revised, btw), not to mention the $100 lotuses which everybody thought was ridiculous for a piece of cardboard and no, there wasn't an internet forum to complain on I quit within a few years, not having the money to build a single competitive deck. Not ONE and this is including the new brand-new Type 1.5 format at the time, of which tier decks were probably $100. I was not one of those lucky ones who kept/traded for/was gifted sets of beta, p9, etc. so basically not much of value.
In 2010 I made the fateful mistake of opening a storage box with my old mtg cards and it was thus I found myself joining MTGS to trade cards and get back into the game. (For everybody keeping track, the prices of cards were such that I used hard-earned money to buy them, let us be clear for the record that I have no entitlement issues - I earned everything I worked for and damned if I can't spend it how I wish :P) I bought and traded for some cards and gradually as I accumulated more and more staples, I happened to pick up a set of revised, pretty much my first mtg set and the cornerstone of my mtg experiences. And I started picking up other sets - homelands, fallen empires, etc. and before long I was a full-blown collector. I've bought, sold and traded a tremendous amount of cards in my quest to improve my collection and throughout the process, numerous people have thanked me or have been eager to trade with me, in stark contrast to the hate often expressed towards collectors on the forums.
Why? I, like most collectors, pay money for the absolute junk cards that nobody wants, the type of cards people would gladly trade off and at better-than-dealer prices (because let's face it - pretty much nobody, not in edh, probably not in cube, maaaybe in pauper? is going to pay you even a darn penny for your Seasinger. Or whatever.) You know (or are one of!) those guys who want more money to buy packs, cards or eBay? I have bought hundreds of thousands of cards, numerous collections, partial/full sets etc. to help finance people's conversion of cardboard to cash. And no, I'm not a dealer - many of us aren't; so-called mtg 'dealers' don't make hardly enough. Let's break it down for real - I've helped pay for broken cars, engagement rings, bachelor parties, wedding parties, divorces and of course college This is just me, imagine what all the other collectors have done. And yes, I collect staples too. 40 force of wills? Not going to lie, I had a good amount, and no, I'm not the YouTube guy. Now down to about four. Why? That leads me to my next point:
Trade-wise, there's probably, conservatively estimating, a 10:1 ratio of "have junk, want staples" threads on the trade forums. Guess who exactly will trade VINTAGE/LEGACY staples like force of will, duals, etc. for utter unplayables, including jank in REPRINTABLE formats like MODERN? The stuff you groan at when you open packs and wish fervently it was something else. That's right, collectors. Your fellow players may balk at this but we generally can work something out. Getting into the specifics, I've traded cards from p3k, bazaars, useas, etc. for jank, partial sets, etc. and many of them in trades in which the vast majority of cards were lower than $2 each.
Disclosure time: I've held and hold a large number of a particular card on occasion, sure, probably had a lot of FoW's, etc. Feel free of trying to accuse me of 'cornering the market', 'driving up the price of cards', etc and remember that you guys who don't have FoW's (or goyfs, or whatever) curse the high price, sure but on the other hand the guys who had it were happy selling it to me around those prices and the guys I trade numerous copies of these cards to for my collection wants are similarly satisfied, so I see it as collectors making your gaming experience better.
I firmly believe in every person's right to have a goal of collecting playsets of most sets in existence A guy can dream, right? Feel free to disagree but that's how I see it. After all, some of us really just hate having to buy missing cards for decks.
Incidentally, I am in full support of wot'c stance on reprints - please reprint all modern-legal cards ad nauseam so that more people can afford them, people can play modern and the community, as a whole, can suffer less whining. Loss in value? Sure, you betcha. It's part-and-parcel of the modern format, so deal with it as you can and remember that collectors are still willing to buy/trade for your price-declining, reprintable cards even if your fellow players aren't.
Last but not least, a few words of advice from a collector: If you can't afford it, either change your mind, save or work harder. Such is your inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness and the sooner you realize how the world works, the sooner you'll achieve your goals. On the other hand, feel free to just vent your frustrations on the internet while not improving your education, work experience or bank account - it's admittedly therapeutic, even if nothing changes
I collect $100+ decks of limited playing cards, I don't care if that makes the price go up later. I have them because I want them... Because I bought them. They are mine, not yours. I'm never gonna sell them. I enjoy having them sit on a shelf with the others. Don't tell me "There are less in circulation now. I want to play poker with them. You made them to expensive."
Wouldn't they technically not be in circulation if you kept them to play with?
Your analogy is not very useful. A more apt comparison would be if you demanded that they stop printing decks of cards and as a result people couldn't play poker. There is no problem with collectors holding onto rare copies of something. The problem is when they demand that the ability to play a game is stifled by refusing to accept that reprints are helpful.
Prophet
Ok.
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I agree with what you're getting at. Collectors don't hurt anything about the game - I'm a collector but a gamer first. I don't collect playsets to hoarde value - I do it so I always can build any deck I want.
It's the speculators who buy up 400 copies of a cheap card waiting for it to be broken that make it difficult on the every day player who doesn't see the immediate value in the card, then has to fork over extra cash to the speculators who did. I don't necessarily see this as bad either honestly - the player had the same opportunity to pick up the card when it was cheap and chose not to.
I feel like I should point out I disagree with the Reprint List. If your collection is truly valuable of it's own merit, then a reprint won't impact that collectability. There are plenty of oddities and one offs out in the Magic community that are far more collectible than anything ever printed in an actual set. (Check out the prices on some of the Frame test cards.... sheesh!)
You know, there's another side to this. A collector, or really more appropriately, a speculator buys 10 playsets of X card at $25 a pop, thinking it will go up in price (happens with a lot of planeswalkers), the card tanks down to $15 and they lose a ton of money.
That's why I never buy more than what I need to make my deck because it is just as likely that a card will go down as it will go up. This way, if a card tanks, I don't care because I only bought my 4 to put in my deck and my losses are minimal.
Bottom line is this. Like it or not, we live in a free market society. If John Doe wants to buy 400 of whatever card, he can and there's nothing unethical or illegal about it.
Someday, those cards may be worth nothing and he's looking at a lot of worthless paper.
peasantcube.blogspot.com
Am I considered a hoarder or am I doing my part to make the game better? My guess is I am not making your game any better and I am pretty sure the answer would be the same if I only collected tarmogoyf.
The problem with this is that we can call any activity that we personally don't like unethical. Where do we draw the line?
Because by your logic, I can poke holes, as far as ethics goes, into almost everything that is done in the world from having to buy food to survive to paying rent to have a place to live so you don't freeze to death.
You may not agree, but I could make a case for the above or anything for that matter.
So again, where do we draw the line?
So I appreciate the thought that we aren't hindering your gaming and even though we aren't helping 'you' specifically, collectors in general are pretty helpful to others For many many people, the 'work' you mentioned is quite worth it. We all place different values on our time but trust me when I say that when it comes to a hobby, a lot of that goes out the window. For example, trading online, you frequently find yourself engaging in trades with people who are well-off and yet are proposing $20 trades that probably take at least a half hour to find in their collection, package and ship out. Not to mention the inordinate number of people who place pretty much a negligible value on their time ^^
Hoarders may make this game awful, in your opinion, but that doesn't make what they do unethical.
Casual
RGBeatz | BPauper MBC | 0Cheeri0s | BVampires
Competitive
RBurn | GWMaverick | WURPatriot | BWGJunkBlade | BPOX
What's your take on reprints of valuable cards? Again you don't speak much to the value of your collection in your post. Just wondering if you mind if your collection loses value if it means more players can get in to a format because the price of those cards becomes affordable?
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:symg::symw::symb: Junk Rites
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This is my wife's and my goal...we've said that anything past nine of a card (four for each of us, in case we both want a given card in a deck, and one for a binder) we can get rid of. When our sons start playing...well, hopefully three of us don't want four of a given card at a time, cause I'm not stashing sixteen of each.
I'm curious about this defined cycle of prices...which, I respect your telling me to get lost if you don't want to be risking giving your information away, but I presume you're referring to the tendency for a Standard staple to peak when it sees high-end tournament results, and for the price to drop off a cliff as it nears rotation, or the cards that support it/it supports near rotation, unless it's going to make a transition to an eternal format, like Snapcaster? If so...I get what you mean, but I haven't spent the time figuring out how to capitalize just yet...I could see selling off Standard staples while still in the format, but that would be counter-intuitive if you WANT to play Standard...I just feel like I'm missing something obvious.
hey.
i started the other thread (the problem with collectors) and i'd just like to say a couple of things:
1) the thread was never about the reserve list. or bashing collectors. read the first post and you'll see it's WOTC's reaction to collectors that causes the problem.
2) it was a thread about modern.
3) it was in fact almost exactly about the thing that you support, which i've quoted from your original post. it was also about the problem that occurs when WOTC starts acting over cautiously about reprinting what i have come to term "outliers".... really ridiculously expensive cards, that are way more expensive than almost every other card out there. the 0.5% of cards that are four or five times the value of everything else on the second hand market, blown out of proportion by different factors beyond the usual rarity/desirability thing.
just thought i'd clear things up.
Yup I sure do play the game, it's part of the reason I started collecting. Let me give you a couple of examples. Decks change and when it does you all of a sudden find out that you don't want to play BUG as much as RUG and now you're accumulating different cards, frantically trading/buying them a few days before an event, often at inflated prices. Having the cards already alleviates this situation. Additionally, new archetypes pop up, second sunrise, rip/helm of obedience, etc. and instead of monitoring forums 24x7 and rushing buy these cards before they jump in price in case you want to play the deck...well, like I said, you could just have them already. This goes for any number of cards - sunrise, helm, rip, SnT, etc. etc. and sure, some cards lose a bit of value when they aren't as popular (who plays tombstalker now?) but net net, if you're holding the entire set, odds are that you're not losing out.
Additionally, as a side point, I'll throw this out there - one of the never-mentioned secrets for card value retention is holding sets. Not cards, sets. There haven't been any studies on this that I know of but from personal experience I've found this to be the case and it intuitively makes sense from a risk management perspective for a card portfolio.
In regards to the value of my collection, I'm trying to make a point and not advertise because collectors get plenty of pm's already but mmm most collectors are constantly looking for cards and have their collection cards/wants in their trade lists, usually in their sig That should answer that in detail.
About the reprints, I agree 100% on wotc's policy - don't print the reserved list and print the heck out of modern. People can rail against this all they want but it's quite simple as a matter of business - take a step back and think about what they would do to maximize $ from a company's perspective and it's clear why this is the way it is. To be 100% clear, I don't mind if the modern part of the collection loses value because anybody could see this coming a mile away the moment they announced modern as a format and it's a choice to hold these cards - I consciously buy/trade for these cards knowing full well the implied loss in value over time. Everybody should be cognizant of this and we'll have less complaining when bob gets reprinted, tarmogoyf gets reprinted twice, etc.
Regarding the reserved list cards, I think I made my stance clear - I couldn't afford 'em either and I dealt with it. Born in the wrong decade? Them's the breaks, I was too and didn't have a chance to get in on MSFT stock either, so what. Or people can just complain on the forums and while they're at it on "deserving" dirt-cheap cards, might as well mention dirt-cheap luxury cars, private jets, mansions, supermodel girlfriends, etc. etc. as well because it's the same entitlement argument, just a matter of degree
@purklefluff: Your thread is unfortunately about bashing collectors, even if you didn't purposely add to it. I understand where you're coming from after reading your posts but it's kind of hard to say you're not bashing when the title is "the problem with collectors" and I wince whenever I see it It could be more aptly titled "How wotc should reprint more often to make modern a better format" or whatnot.
Yes, it costs money, but it costs money to them too. The disparity in equivalence is what is boggling.
Rules Advisor: 9/5/11
Old, sparsely updated because of above: Trade with me!
Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
People say they hate collectors for blocking reprints, but really, they're angry at the wrong people. A true collector isn't particularly concerned about reprints. What people are actually angry about is the so-called "MTG Investor", who hoards a portfolio and treats the number attached to his binder like a measure of his self-worth, to the point where he viscerally and angrily opposes the idea of even controlled reprints that don't crash prices.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Who the heck didn't get their playset of every zen fetch when they were all sub $10? A player who isn't serious about the game, that's who.
I think someone needs to do a proper write up on speculator vs collector.
Rules Advisor: 9/5/11
Old, sparsely updated because of above: Trade with me!
Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
Unfortunately I didn't, I still need a few of the non blue fetches
Whoa, easy there. This is real life we're talking about, not some hypothetical straw-man argument. Taking any argument to the extreme is ludicrous and I will easily show you how I could do the same - "if you're actually a mtg player, then you don't care about prices of cards". Why should you? After all, fallaciously speaking, you ONLY care about the GAME. The excitement, the logic, the rules lawyering, etc. purely within the game. The cards couldn't matter less - tarmogoyf could be $0.01 and it could be $10k, how does it matter to you? It's the game itself right? You could be playing the same game with proxies! Most pro players borrow cards anyways or get their decks from store sponsors so who cares about the prices Oh wait, it's a collectible card game, cards have to be legal to be played in tourneys and the prices DO matter to players. Guess what, they matter to collectors too.
So that's about all I have to say about that - you want to discuss the reprint policy, please take your argument over to the 'reserved list discussion' thread and I'll answer you there. The link is here, btw:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=302108
Or a person who didn't play at the time. and thereofre never saw fetches at $10?
Someone who doesn't have the budget to grab $200 worth of carboard on a whim?
Or maybe someone who isn't a speculator, and plays monocoloured decks (therefore having no need for fetchlands).
I fit into the latter two categories. I didn't spend $200 on fetchlands that my WW doesn't actually need. Does that mean I'm not a serious player?
No, it doesn't. I still go to every tournament I can, try my best when I do and buy new cards fo my decks when I have the money. I even established a club at my school.
If those thing's don;t make a serious player, then what does? (apart from buying fetchlands)
I don't have an "obscene" collection or anything, but I like wheeling and dealing as much as I like brewing and playing. I am impatient as well. I try to trade for something I need, but if I can't do that easily, I just buy it.
It's a collecting card game, which means collecting cards is just as much a part of this thing as playing. So really, there should be no problems with anyone having a collection.
It's your money, your time, your collection, your choice. If people want to complain that 1% of the MTG community owns 90% of the cards, to you I say, "Welcome to the real world".
Rather than bash each other, let's just respect the fact that we all appreciate this game for one reason or another.