When you're playing and your opponent forgets to do something that benefits them, do you let them know or do you keep quiet? Is it their own mistake and they should suffer or are you a good sport about things? For instance an opponent forgetting to draw an extra card when there's a Rites of Flourishing on the board, or they make a bunch of cat tokens with White Sun's Zenith and they leave one out by accident.
Generally I do tell my opponent, but I've noticed I'm a little more hesitant when I'm losing
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If you don't point it out, you're failing to maintain the proper game state and are thus breaking the rules (which is more strictly enforced in a tournament setting, of course). Neither of the cards you mentioned have "may" effects (as in, they're mandatory), so if you're hesitating to tell them, you're basically cheating. =|
Edit: I meant that the draw portion for Rites of Flourishing is not a may effect (unlike playing the additional land).
Rites of Flourishing has a mandatory ability. If your opponent does not draw a card, you are required to remind them. If you notice but decide not to say anything, this is Cheating, and it will get you disqualified from any tournament. Same with the White Sun's Zenith.
Of course, in casual play, it's not going to get you disqualified because there is no judge to disqualify you, but it's still cheating. So don't do it.
On the other hand, if your opponent forgets to gain 1 life with Suture Priest (which has a "may" ability), you can feel free to say nothing. When I'm playing against newer players in a casual environment, I'd remind them, but against good players or in a tournament, I expect them to look out for themselves.
When you're playing and your opponent forgets to do something that benefits them, do you let them know or do you keep quiet? Is it their own mistake and they should suffer or are you a good sport about things? For instance an opponent forgetting to draw an extra card when there's a Rites of Flourishing on the board, or they make a bunch of cat tokens with White Sun's Zenith and they leave one out by accident.
Generally I do tell my opponent, but I've noticed I'm a little more hesitant when I'm losing
In both of those instances you have committed Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation as well as Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain Game State, and as such I would issue you each a warning. However your hesitance to reveal that you realized there was a screw-up with the game state but didn't reveal so would constitute Cheating - Fraud, and I would disqualify you on the spot. I would hope that every player is aware of the fact that mandatory actions, abilities, and triggers MUST be addressed correctly.
It is the responsibility of BOTH PLAYERS to maintain proper game state and follow all rules accordingly, regardless of its relevance to who is winning. I had to remind an opponent of his Primordial Hydra trigger which resulted in him winning. I also hate having to remind people of Rhystic Study and its trigger as I would rather get to accidentally draw than to remind them to pay 1, but I have to remind them so I do.
Wow I wasn't aware it was cheating, but I don't see how that rule can really be enforced. How can they possibly know that you noticed and not just spaced out like your opponent? I'm not saying do it cause they can't tell anyways, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
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Wow I wasn't aware it was cheating, but I don't see how that rule can really be enforced. How can they possibly know that you noticed and not just spaced out like your opponent? I'm not saying do it cause they can't tell anyways, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Typically a judge will only notice this error if he/she is personally over-seeing the match, or if one of the players notices, and calls a judge without necessarily revealing there is in fact a gameplay error.
I recall a situation where a player was down to 2 cards in his deck during his opponent's turn with a Font of Mythos out, and muttered "So I lose right?" His opponent had nothing out to defend himself and was staring down a pretty sizable board position from the opposing player who had only two cards left. The opponent said "I don't see how, I think I lose" and passed turn.
The player down to two cards only drew one card, then went into combat, however I had been sitting close enough and been monitoring the player who I assumed was going to deck out at some point, so when I came by and asked how he could have not lost, he said "Oh, I guess I forgot to draw, my bad" and his opponent said "Oh thats what you meant last turn when you said you lost anyway", which prompted an investigation in which I deduced he did indeed ignore the trigger since his opponent didn't catch it.
Also, cards like White Sun's Zenith require X to be paid. I very often see players pay a crap ton into it in draft and then rummage for dice and fail to procure the correct amount, and the opponent, who was aware of the X value when the spell was announced, has allowed you to commit an infraction.
The warning is issued whether or not you notice it - it's both players' responsibilities to know the rules of the game and follow them.
In terms of determining whether or not a player is doing it voluntarily, then I'm not sure. It probably depends on their playing habits up to that point, how they react to the judge's call, their body language, I don't know. Wasn't there a semi-recent (Legacy?) tournament where both players forgot about the vindicate effect on Angel of Despair, but one was found to be ignoring it on purpose?
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Normally, you would just get a warning. (You get the warning even if your behavior is unintentional.)
However, judges do have the power to investigate instances where cheating is suspected. This will usually include interviewing both players and any witnesses, and a look at your records (any previous warnings you got, for example) to see if you have a pattern of such behavior.
Usually, Failure to Maintain errors go to both players at the same time, Game Rule Violations go to individual players when an opponent calls judge, and Cheating - Fraud can go to either or both players receiving any of the penalties. I've had players DQ'd even when they were winning because they have a nasty habit of "playing competitively" at FNM. Derived Information is Shared Information at the Regular REL.
I recall the other day having to give a loss to a player that would've otherwise won easily with his eyes closed. A veteran PTQ grinder was playing a small kid at draft in the first round and was pissed off that the kid mentioned his parents were only letting him stay for two rounds, meaning this little kid in effect was damaging this player's breakers. The player grew more and more agitated as the round progressed given that the child was prone to "Stop and think about this stuff" and his unfamiliarity with the cards. He kept trying to have the child slapped with a stalling violation "He can't seriously read every card" because he wanted to win his match in 10 minutes and just relax, and I informed him that the child could take his time, and that he wasn't trying to stall to gain an advantage, but rather, he was reading cards and wanted to grasp the board state and make correct decisions accordingly.
As the game whittled down, the child asked the veteran player "How much mana you have" and the player simply shrugged, pointed to his miss-mash of deliberately jumbled, half-tapped land, and said "Count it". I took him aside, told him I knew he was frustrated about the current match but that he was obligated to answer truthfully, not force his opponent to count it out, as it was FNM.
Long story short, two turns later, the kid asks the same question, the player angrily stacked his lands into one big stack, puts it in the middle of the table and says "You can count", and then proceeded to interrupt the child as he counted out-loud, saying numbers to try to throw the kid off. I came to the table just as I saw this happening, gave him a Game Loss for unsporting conduct, and warned him that if he couldn't check his temper he'd be asked to leave the venue.
The irony is that this happened during the first game, which took quite a while. When Time was called for the match, with his game loss already, coupled with the fact that the kid was playing a slow blue deck, the kid ended up beating him 1-0-1. The veteran player dropped.
If you notice the missed trigger and say nothing, this is cheating.
If you don't notice the missed trigger it's a warning.
The judge will attempt to determine if you noticed the trigger or not. Unless there is clear evidence that you knew the trigger was missed (e.g. you said it), judges will usually just issue a GPE. What you have described in the OP is definitely cheating, however, and would get you disqualified.
He kept trying to have the child slapped with a stalling violation "He can't seriously read every card" because he wanted to win his match in 10 minutes and just relax, and I informed him that the child could take his time, and that he wasn't trying to stall to gain an advantage, but rather, he was reading cards and wanted to grasp the board state and make correct decisions accordingly.
It doesn't matter whether he was stalling to take advantage when you're looking for slow play. If they are playing unreasonably slow, they are guilty of slowplay. If they are doing it on purpose to affect the outcome of the match, that is Cheating - Stalling. This is a distinction it seems most players (even lots of judges) never seem to get.
It doesn't matter whether he was stalling to take advantage when you're looking for slow play. If they are playing unreasonably slow, they are guilty of slowplay. If they are doing it on purpose to affect the outcome of the match, that is Cheating - Stalling. This is a distinction it seems most players (even lots of judges) never seem to get.
In a tournament setting, if it's not a "may" ability, I will remind my opponent (I have to, or else it's cheating). If I'm watching a tournament game, I will remind the players in the match, regardless of who I want to win, or call a judge at Professional REL. If it is a "may", I will never remind my opponent in a tournament setting.
In a casual setting, I will always remind my opponent, whether it's a "may" or not. No point in doing "playtesting" when one person doesn't know what's going on.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
When you're playing and your opponent forgets to do something that benefits them, do you let them know or do you keep quiet? Is it their own mistake and they should suffer or are you a good sport about things? For instance an opponent forgetting to draw an extra card when there's a Rites of Flourishing on the board, or they make a bunch of cat tokens with White Sun's Zenith and they leave one out by accident.
Generally I do tell my opponent, but I've noticed I'm a little more hesitant when I'm losing
if he forgets to do something that he doesn't have to do, then it's fine... if you adds 100 mana to his mana pool then fireballs you for 1 and then goes oh crap... thats his fault... but if hes required to do something via a card on the table etc... and you let it slide for your benefit, that's cheating and a bannable offense
If it's a required trigger, I remind my opponent, if of course, I remember my self lol. If its a may ability, I never remind them (unless its a really casual game).
In a FNM or something, I don't tell them if it says may.
In a casual game, I tell them. (well, almost always; I leave it out sometimes if it means they will win)
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Generally I do tell my opponent, but I've noticed I'm a little more hesitant when I'm losing
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Edit: I meant that the draw portion for Rites of Flourishing is not a may effect (unlike playing the additional land).
Standard:
UWRB Jeskai Black
Modern:
RGB Jund
RUG Tarmo Twin
UW Eggs
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG
UWR Miracles
RUG RUG Delver
Of course, in casual play, it's not going to get you disqualified because there is no judge to disqualify you, but it's still cheating. So don't do it.
On the other hand, if your opponent forgets to gain 1 life with Suture Priest (which has a "may" ability), you can feel free to say nothing. When I'm playing against newer players in a casual environment, I'd remind them, but against good players or in a tournament, I expect them to look out for themselves.
In both of those instances you have committed Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation as well as Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain Game State, and as such I would issue you each a warning. However your hesitance to reveal that you realized there was a screw-up with the game state but didn't reveal so would constitute Cheating - Fraud, and I would disqualify you on the spot. I would hope that every player is aware of the fact that mandatory actions, abilities, and triggers MUST be addressed correctly.
It is the responsibility of BOTH PLAYERS to maintain proper game state and follow all rules accordingly, regardless of its relevance to who is winning. I had to remind an opponent of his Primordial Hydra trigger which resulted in him winning. I also hate having to remind people of Rhystic Study and its trigger as I would rather get to accidentally draw than to remind them to pay 1, but I have to remind them so I do.
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Typically a judge will only notice this error if he/she is personally over-seeing the match, or if one of the players notices, and calls a judge without necessarily revealing there is in fact a gameplay error.
I recall a situation where a player was down to 2 cards in his deck during his opponent's turn with a Font of Mythos out, and muttered "So I lose right?" His opponent had nothing out to defend himself and was staring down a pretty sizable board position from the opposing player who had only two cards left. The opponent said "I don't see how, I think I lose" and passed turn.
The player down to two cards only drew one card, then went into combat, however I had been sitting close enough and been monitoring the player who I assumed was going to deck out at some point, so when I came by and asked how he could have not lost, he said "Oh, I guess I forgot to draw, my bad" and his opponent said "Oh thats what you meant last turn when you said you lost anyway", which prompted an investigation in which I deduced he did indeed ignore the trigger since his opponent didn't catch it.
Also, cards like White Sun's Zenith require X to be paid. I very often see players pay a crap ton into it in draft and then rummage for dice and fail to procure the correct amount, and the opponent, who was aware of the X value when the spell was announced, has allowed you to commit an infraction.
In terms of determining whether or not a player is doing it voluntarily, then I'm not sure. It probably depends on their playing habits up to that point, how they react to the judge's call, their body language, I don't know. Wasn't there a semi-recent (Legacy?) tournament where both players forgot about the vindicate effect on Angel of Despair, but one was found to be ignoring it on purpose?
Standard:
UWRB Jeskai Black
Modern:
RGB Jund
RUG Tarmo Twin
UW Eggs
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG
UWR Miracles
RUG RUG Delver
However, judges do have the power to investigate instances where cheating is suspected. This will usually include interviewing both players and any witnesses, and a look at your records (any previous warnings you got, for example) to see if you have a pattern of such behavior.
I recall the other day having to give a loss to a player that would've otherwise won easily with his eyes closed. A veteran PTQ grinder was playing a small kid at draft in the first round and was pissed off that the kid mentioned his parents were only letting him stay for two rounds, meaning this little kid in effect was damaging this player's breakers. The player grew more and more agitated as the round progressed given that the child was prone to "Stop and think about this stuff" and his unfamiliarity with the cards. He kept trying to have the child slapped with a stalling violation "He can't seriously read every card" because he wanted to win his match in 10 minutes and just relax, and I informed him that the child could take his time, and that he wasn't trying to stall to gain an advantage, but rather, he was reading cards and wanted to grasp the board state and make correct decisions accordingly.
As the game whittled down, the child asked the veteran player "How much mana you have" and the player simply shrugged, pointed to his miss-mash of deliberately jumbled, half-tapped land, and said "Count it". I took him aside, told him I knew he was frustrated about the current match but that he was obligated to answer truthfully, not force his opponent to count it out, as it was FNM.
Long story short, two turns later, the kid asks the same question, the player angrily stacked his lands into one big stack, puts it in the middle of the table and says "You can count", and then proceeded to interrupt the child as he counted out-loud, saying numbers to try to throw the kid off. I came to the table just as I saw this happening, gave him a Game Loss for unsporting conduct, and warned him that if he couldn't check his temper he'd be asked to leave the venue.
The irony is that this happened during the first game, which took quite a while. When Time was called for the match, with his game loss already, coupled with the fact that the kid was playing a slow blue deck, the kid ended up beating him 1-0-1. The veteran player dropped.
If you don't notice the missed trigger it's a warning.
The judge will attempt to determine if you noticed the trigger or not. Unless there is clear evidence that you knew the trigger was missed (e.g. you said it), judges will usually just issue a GPE. What you have described in the OP is definitely cheating, however, and would get you disqualified.
L2 Judge
It doesn't matter whether he was stalling to take advantage when you're looking for slow play. If they are playing unreasonably slow, they are guilty of slowplay. If they are doing it on purpose to affect the outcome of the match, that is Cheating - Stalling. This is a distinction it seems most players (even lots of judges) never seem to get.
L2 Judge
Technically, you can do stalling without doing slow play.
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In a casual setting, I will always remind my opponent, whether it's a "may" or not. No point in doing "playtesting" when one person doesn't know what's going on.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
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if he forgets to do something that he doesn't have to do, then it's fine... if you adds 100 mana to his mana pool then fireballs you for 1 and then goes oh crap... thats his fault... but if hes required to do something via a card on the table etc... and you let it slide for your benefit, that's cheating and a bannable offense
In a casual game, I tell them. (well, almost always; I leave it out sometimes if it means they will win)
-Yogi Berra
And it was a completely BS thing, as Gindy thought it was a 'may' trigger, and he didn't even have to talk to the guy after the match.