How do you and your playgroups feel about using proxies?
I don't like it, but tolerate it. Some of my friends to it much more than me(almost never) while others can't stand it at all and refuse to do it at al times. I hate proxies that don't have card text, as if the opponent knows every card in his deck. I mainly just like to see real cards though; it looks much better.
I kind of want fetch lands proxies, but I am resisting the urge...fight the power...:cool2:
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Neither I nor anyone in any playgroup I've been a part of has used proxies for cards we don't actually own. I use quite a few since I don't want to buy more than a single playset of anything regardless of whether or not I'm using the cards in more than one deck. I also proxy all my really expensive cards so I don't have to take them out of their screwdown lucite cases.
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
When it comes to proxies, I'll only use them in two situations:
1)I'm playtesting for a new set prior to it coming out. (With CHK/RAV T2 around the corner, this has come in handy.)
2)When I'm involved with legacy tournaments that allow 5 proxies.
Otherwise though I try to stay away from them when I'm playing casually. It seems unethical to beat someone down with something you don't have available to actually play with.
It seems unethical to beat someone down with something you don't have available to actually play with.
And what about those who don't have the money? Is it ethical for them to be massively disadvantaged?
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
And what about those who don't have the money? Is it ethical for them to be massively disadvantaged?
Is it ethical for players who invest more to be no better than those who invest less?
No. That's the answer, no.
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Originally Posted by Green Arrow Yes I did, I wouldn't fully disagree with chronoplasam. Perhaps I do deserve toture. But who amongst us besides myself has what it takes to toture me?
Originally Posted by Highroller
Compared to what? I think compared to chocolate ice cream, women, unicorns, and kung fu, the state pretty much sucks.
And what about those who don't have the money? Is it ethical for them to be massively disadvantaged?
Really depends on the situation honestly. Most of the time I don't like the idea of people getting smashed because they're at an extreme disadvantage based on the amount of quality cards they have, but I don't think it's right for people to be winning off of the backs of Magic cards with the words Kokusho written in sharpie either. Still if both players agree to use proxies (or if the entire group says ok if it's multiplayer or the like), then hey, I'd definitely say go for it. Otherwise I just don't think it's really a great idea overall...
Really depends on the situation honestly. Most of the time I don't like the idea of people getting smashed because they're at an extreme disadvantage based on the amount of quality cards they have, but I don't think it's right for people to be winning off of the backs of Magic cards with the words Kokusho written in sharpie either. Still if both players agree to use proxies (or if the entire group says ok if it's multiplayer or the like), then hey, I'd definitely say go for it. Otherwise I just don't think it's really a great idea overall...
Yeah, I like the idea of both people having proxies. That way, nobody can complain. The idea that a peice of thin cardboard cost even $5, nonetheless $30 is just ridiculous. Many of the fun, competative cards are rare, or AT LEAST uncommon. Recently, common=crap.
And fundamental cards should NEVER be rare, ahem...fetch lands...dual lands...[cough]...[mana acceleration]. That is a recipe for an elitist game.
And what if a $300 dollar deck is stolen, opppps!!! Guess you need to buy $3 worth of cards for $300 again.
It is soo relaxing to play a fair game like chess or Wieh Chi sometimes, especially with my lower-income freinds.
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Well, seeing as how I'm a low budget dude, I once proxied sinkhole for a BR LD deck, but my playgroup wouldn't let me put them in, so I just play extended zombies with no proxies now. It's better not to, anyway.
Allowing both people proxies are cool, since very few people own playsets of every card ever printed and thus both benefit.
Aside from that, trying out cards before you buy them is cool. "Wow this deck is fast, definitely gonna go pick up 3 REAL Iwamoras now" or "Boy am I glad I didn't waste $15 on these things *rips up proxies*"
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I never use proxies unless A) I have the cards I need in another deck, in which case I use them mostly to remind myself what to switch out when I switch decks; or B) I'm contemplating buying cards for a deck and I want to see how they work before I make the plunge.
Imagine if Chess didn't come with all the pieces, and you were allowed to create your own side of pieces. Queens are rare, and cost 20+ dollars. Everyone has tons of pawns, and throws them away. Would the National Chess Champions be a world-famous test of strategy or intellect, or something for nerds with a lot of money to waste?
I think, when certain players have an advantage in a game just because they spent more money on it, then the game loses a lot of legitamacy. I have no problem with using proxies. I do, and so do the people I play against. It's insane to spend 100+ dollars on a play set of Force of Will's.
If I ever ran a tournament myself, especially Legacy and Vintage, I'd probably allow a heck of a lot of proxies, maybe even unlimited. Of course, there are lots of nice "even-footing" ways to play magic, like Limited, Mental Magic, and other various Shared Deck formats.
One thing about proxies though: I think if Proxies are allowed in tournaments, there should be a rule that "all game text and numbers must be on the proxy". That way you don't have low quality stuff, like Kokoshu written on with a sharpie. It's much nicer to have printed out color pictures of the cards, or even cards with your own, unique art
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If evolution is outlawed, then only outlaws will evolve.
I rarely use proxies and when I do, it's just for testing with friends, or until I get the real ones in the mail. However I do hate people who just marker up other cards. I actually use MS Publisher to make real nice artless proxies with all the text, costs, types, and P/T.
i think my play group is the olny play group in the world that let all people use proxies LOL, since my play group me especialy change/modify decks quite often
but there are a few rule
1) proxies must state its mana cost, p/t, subtype and supertype
2) notification of proxies must be told before a match
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In summation: You are not inherintely superior for using a rogue deck.
i will run proxies whenever im testing out a new deck. ive made the mistake of buying the cards first and tehn the deck not working right. but then again, im not gonna proxy out really expensive cards either. only stuff that i know i can get. no cranial extraction proxies for me
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Something which also bugs me, on a slightly similar topic, is non-mammals with big mammaries. Snakes with tatas? Birds with boobies? Insects with jubblies?
:evillol:"Life's a grave, Dig it!" - Wednesday 13:evillol:
I use Proxies during playtesting, but only playtesting. Never during a "real" game - casual, tournament, or otherwise.
Yes, finances have some impact on the game of Magic. I don't really understand why people feel it shouldn't be that way, when that's the same everywhere else. You don't buy a $ 750 computer, and wonder why your friend's for $ 3500 is so much better. You realize you took the budget compromise, and enjoy what your computer is capable of. (Or, if you're a Magic player, you blame Microsoft for making everything cost so much, and say that you're never buying another computer again, until the next multicolour expansion.)
*Should* cost matter? Should the amount of money you spend so directly influence the quality of cards and power of decks you can assemble? Maybe, maybe not; I'm not entirely sure; I've never lived in a 'free Magic cards' society.
If we look at the "top of the line" of some other pasttimes, we're going to see that money influences - perhaps strongly - the outcome. Take baseball. A lighter bat, allowing you to send the ball further, costs money. A good pair of cleats, more money. A good glove, more money. Good quality balls, more money.
But you can enjoy baseball with much less that this. You don't need cleats in your local ball-park; running shoes are pretty good, and much cheaper. Most people can't even use the high-quality bats at a level to gain the benefit from them. If it's only your friends popping fly balls at you, you probably don't need the most fantastic glove on the planet. So the non-competive level is much less expensive. But every layer of competition you add, increases the price - sometimes dramatically.
The same analogy would apply to computing (bigger! faster! more more more!), football, cycling, or many other fields. But to *enjoy* the games, to have *fun*, doesn't take a considerable investment - a pack or two, here or there; maybe some solid singles at good prices; and hey! I opened a Foil Kokusho! Sweet - he fits well in my deck!
But then, don't buy a $ 700 computer, and wonder why your friend's $ 3000 one is better.
Complaining that Wizards is "forcing" you to cough up money for the game makes no sense. Nobody's forcing you, at your kitchen table, to play with four Chrome Moxes. Or four of anything. Yes, your deck's better if you do; but then, it's you that wants the better deck. They didn't "make" you want it, any more than McDonald's is capable of "making" you want a cheeseburger.
If you're in a competitive field of the game - anything from Friday Night Magic to the Pro Tour - and you're trying to tune and improve your deck, it's still you who is choosing to get Chrome Moxes (or whatever the power-card-du-jour is). Wizards isn't making you. You're deciding to become more competitive and upgrade your bat to the point where it's a professional-grade model. Is that worth it? Are you getting your money's worth? Nobody can judge that but you.
For me, with the amount of fun I have with the game - between collecting, sorting, playing, building, reading, winning, losing, and that rare but powerful thrill of discovering a new combo - it's worth the money *I* invest. Would I expect you to invest that money? No - that's your money. Maybe your fun comes from books, or movies, or video games, or television shows or cycling or banannas. That's your business, not mine (and if it's banannas, please don't tell me). If you don't enjoy spending money on Magic, don't. But don't be surprised when the more expensive computer / bicycle / shoes / magic deck turns out to be faster and better than yours.
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I only use proxies for a few reasons. Won the cards on ebay and waiting for them. Only have a few copies of the card and too many decks to use it in, Sol ring. For my black lotus, I don't even proxie that much because I play with friends mostly and don't want to be that guy with the P9 in his deck. And my Juzam Djinn for same reason as the lotus its expensive.
first turn
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
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I don't like it, but tolerate it. Some of my friends to it much more than me(almost never) while others can't stand it at all and refuse to do it at al times. I hate proxies that don't have card text, as if the opponent knows every card in his deck. I mainly just like to see real cards though; it looks much better.
I kind of want fetch lands proxies, but I am resisting the urge...fight the power...:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
1)I'm playtesting for a new set prior to it coming out. (With CHK/RAV T2 around the corner, this has come in handy.)
2)When I'm involved with legacy tournaments that allow 5 proxies.
Otherwise though I try to stay away from them when I'm playing casually. It seems unethical to beat someone down with something you don't have available to actually play with.
or i also proxy with $20+ cards
And what about those who don't have the money? Is it ethical for them to be massively disadvantaged?
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Is it ethical for players who invest more to be no better than those who invest less?
No. That's the answer, no.
now begins the thousand years of REIGN OF BLOOD!
Really depends on the situation honestly. Most of the time I don't like the idea of people getting smashed because they're at an extreme disadvantage based on the amount of quality cards they have, but I don't think it's right for people to be winning off of the backs of Magic cards with the words Kokusho written in sharpie either. Still if both players agree to use proxies (or if the entire group says ok if it's multiplayer or the like), then hey, I'd definitely say go for it. Otherwise I just don't think it's really a great idea overall...
Yeah, I like the idea of both people having proxies. That way, nobody can complain. The idea that a peice of thin cardboard cost even $5, nonetheless $30 is just ridiculous. Many of the fun, competative cards are rare, or AT LEAST uncommon. Recently, common=crap.
And fundamental cards should NEVER be rare, ahem...fetch lands...dual lands...[cough]...[mana acceleration]. That is a recipe for an elitist game.
And what if a $300 dollar deck is stolen, opppps!!! Guess you need to buy $3 worth of cards for $300 again.
It is soo relaxing to play a fair game like chess or Wieh Chi sometimes, especially with my lower-income freinds.
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Aside from that, trying out cards before you buy them is cool. "Wow this deck is fast, definitely gonna go pick up 3 REAL Iwamoras now" or "Boy am I glad I didn't waste $15 on these things *rips up proxies*"
I think, when certain players have an advantage in a game just because they spent more money on it, then the game loses a lot of legitamacy. I have no problem with using proxies. I do, and so do the people I play against. It's insane to spend 100+ dollars on a play set of Force of Will's.
If I ever ran a tournament myself, especially Legacy and Vintage, I'd probably allow a heck of a lot of proxies, maybe even unlimited. Of course, there are lots of nice "even-footing" ways to play magic, like Limited, Mental Magic, and other various Shared Deck formats.
One thing about proxies though: I think if Proxies are allowed in tournaments, there should be a rule that "all game text and numbers must be on the proxy". That way you don't have low quality stuff, like Kokoshu written on with a sharpie. It's much nicer to have printed out color pictures of the cards, or even cards with your own, unique art
but there are a few rule
1) proxies must state its mana cost, p/t, subtype and supertype
2) notification of proxies must be told before a match
cookie wizards of the the simic
The extendo siggy thingy currently dead
:evillol:"Life's a grave, Dig it!" - Wednesday 13:evillol:
:duel:
Yes, finances have some impact on the game of Magic. I don't really understand why people feel it shouldn't be that way, when that's the same everywhere else. You don't buy a $ 750 computer, and wonder why your friend's for $ 3500 is so much better. You realize you took the budget compromise, and enjoy what your computer is capable of. (Or, if you're a Magic player, you blame Microsoft for making everything cost so much, and say that you're never buying another computer again, until the next multicolour expansion.)
*Should* cost matter? Should the amount of money you spend so directly influence the quality of cards and power of decks you can assemble? Maybe, maybe not; I'm not entirely sure; I've never lived in a 'free Magic cards' society.
If we look at the "top of the line" of some other pasttimes, we're going to see that money influences - perhaps strongly - the outcome. Take baseball. A lighter bat, allowing you to send the ball further, costs money. A good pair of cleats, more money. A good glove, more money. Good quality balls, more money.
But you can enjoy baseball with much less that this. You don't need cleats in your local ball-park; running shoes are pretty good, and much cheaper. Most people can't even use the high-quality bats at a level to gain the benefit from them. If it's only your friends popping fly balls at you, you probably don't need the most fantastic glove on the planet. So the non-competive level is much less expensive. But every layer of competition you add, increases the price - sometimes dramatically.
The same analogy would apply to computing (bigger! faster! more more more!), football, cycling, or many other fields. But to *enjoy* the games, to have *fun*, doesn't take a considerable investment - a pack or two, here or there; maybe some solid singles at good prices; and hey! I opened a Foil Kokusho! Sweet - he fits well in my deck!
But then, don't buy a $ 700 computer, and wonder why your friend's $ 3000 one is better.
Complaining that Wizards is "forcing" you to cough up money for the game makes no sense. Nobody's forcing you, at your kitchen table, to play with four Chrome Moxes. Or four of anything. Yes, your deck's better if you do; but then, it's you that wants the better deck. They didn't "make" you want it, any more than McDonald's is capable of "making" you want a cheeseburger.
If you're in a competitive field of the game - anything from Friday Night Magic to the Pro Tour - and you're trying to tune and improve your deck, it's still you who is choosing to get Chrome Moxes (or whatever the power-card-du-jour is). Wizards isn't making you. You're deciding to become more competitive and upgrade your bat to the point where it's a professional-grade model. Is that worth it? Are you getting your money's worth? Nobody can judge that but you.
For me, with the amount of fun I have with the game - between collecting, sorting, playing, building, reading, winning, losing, and that rare but powerful thrill of discovering a new combo - it's worth the money *I* invest. Would I expect you to invest that money? No - that's your money. Maybe your fun comes from books, or movies, or video games, or television shows or cycling or banannas. That's your business, not mine (and if it's banannas, please don't tell me). If you don't enjoy spending money on Magic, don't. But don't be surprised when the more expensive computer / bicycle / shoes / magic deck turns out to be faster and better than yours.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed: