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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Well while this might be fine for certain play groups it might be weird on decks with only a few lands like some belcher or stompy decks. Also it would help decks like Solidarity or Kobold Glimpse by thinning the deck and improving draws. I don't like it because it can give away what colors you are play early on and I would like to punish those with horrible mana bases and bad shuffling. They have to learn sometime. Neat idea though I can only see it working in specific play groups.
I agree... plus, control decks would instantly become much more powerful... as they could run no mana fixing etc... all control cards and simply dominate. it wouldn't be worth playing (i've done something very similar before) it just doesn't work... its good if you want to have some fast games, but in general, no...
not necessarily. occassionally, even with a proper mana base and the like, you could just not shuffle enough (or well enough) and end up mana screwing yourself. this would prevent that from happening...of course, it would also make the game less interesting when everyone always gets their best land draws and that sort of thing...it also removes the famous, "i would have won that game except you drew Akroma, Angel of Wrath while i drew five forests" lost game excuse.
Come to thing of it, you could just have the lands go into your hand, forcing you to discard down to 7. Also, things like foil, mox diamond..ect clould be played. Ignore all of the "removed from the game" stuff.
So it would be MUCH better to have this: Whenever you would draw a card for the first time a turn during your draw step, you may, instead, put top land card from your land stack into your hand. If there are none, then ignore this effect. This does not use the stack.
That is much better, and makes more sense.
Edit: And if you are really afraid of re-animation/card advantage. Then you could make it so that you either draw from the land stack or your library.
We kicked around a 'WHITE LOTUS' idea, and plan to run a few mini-tourneys around it.
WHITE LOTUS
Player Enchantment
White Lotus is not a permanent and cannot be affected by anything.
Before play, put White Lotus onto the table. You may remove any card from your hand from the game during your Play Land Phase and put a Basic Land from outside the game into play. Cards removed from the game in this manner may not be returned to the game. Prior to play, you may may not have more than one copy of any card in your deck and your deck must be at least 60 cards.
This forces 'Highlander' (I believe they call it 'Singleton' nowadays) style deckbuilding, and removes the option of multiple cards in your deck for the trade-off of mana consistency. We've tried it a few times among ourselves and find it a VERY viable alternative to the problems associated with mana screw/flooding. It is no more fun to win against this condition than it is to lose to it. All the deck building skills in the world mean nothing when it happens to you. I'm not advocating everybody should get The Nuts draws every time - randomness through shuffling is just as important to MTG as randomness of deckstyle you face with each new opponent. That is what makes MTG what it is.
Somebody once calculated the odds of mana screw/flooding to an average of 1 in 14 or something like that. Given the odds, why don't we just roll a d20 before each game and if you roll 15-20 just agree that you lost that game to mana screw and move on to the next duel? What's the difference? The effect is the same. I believe the difference is we enjoy the randomness of the game, but would like to find a viable way of removing the randomness of the Automatic Loss. This subject pops up periodically - always has and always will. I think the White Lotus option is a viable alternative. If you want a dependable mana base, then you must be willing to trade off something - multiple copies of cards doesn't seem too much to ask. It certainly does bring an entirely new level of play in deciding what to throw away versus what to keep. Deckbuilding is not as difficult as you might think, however. Give it a try.
Good Deckbuilding. It works nine times out of ten, and helps me win a lot of my games.
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Originally Posted by Green Arrow Yes I did, I wouldn't fully disagree with chronoplasam. Perhaps I do deserve toture. But who amongst us besides myself has what it takes to toture me?
Originally Posted by Highroller
Compared to what? I think compared to chocolate ice cream, women, unicorns, and kung fu, the state pretty much sucks.
Somebody once calculated the odds of mana screw/flooding to an average of 1 in 14 or something like that. Given the odds, why don't we just roll a d20 before each game and if you roll 15-20 just agree that you lost that game to mana screw and move on to the next duel?
This is what happens when you don't understand probabilities. Assuming that the statistic is correct (and I'm not sure it is), 1 in 14 is more like rolling a d20 and losing if you roll a 1, and sometimes if you roll a 2. Look at it. 1 in 14 is about 7%, whereas losing on a roll of 15-20 on a d20 is equal to 30%. Pretty big difference, no?
The Problem is not as simple as deckbuilding, although that sure as heck helps.
Traz, your math is nonetheless off quite a bit.
I have decks with 23 lands, sometimes I topdeck straight spells for 6 turns(I win!), sometimes my starting hand has 2-3 lands(yay!); very often though, I get topdeck 6 lands or start off with 5 lands in my hand. This is not just bad shuffling, it is statistics, such thing are bound to happen somewhat frequently. You and the top finalist can dual and you win just because he drew 7 forest in a row on the third game. His deck may be perfectly balanced and all but it didn't help. So does this mean that his skill level is poor and that he is an idiot and can't build decks, no, obviously, it is just the automatic loss that people randomly get, sometimes it balances out if both people get screwed, other times it doesn't. Also, winning because my opponent is mana flooding for 7 turn or is mana skrewed is very lame and boring, and so is losing because of that...I could go on...
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Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
well it happen the other way around to me that i had my opponet in 1 life and he beat me because i cound draw any burn spell so magic is like all the card game is a 50 luck and 50 skill
well it happen the other way around to me that i had my opponet in 1 life and he beat me because i cound draw any burn spell so magic is like all the card game is a 50 luck and 50 skill
Probably 1/3 is luck in some formatts, 50% luck in newer formatts(where cards are less general, so you have to metagame and hope that you don't start of with bad matchups of archetypes). I like the randomness, but, IMHO, the game should not be as random as it is.
Now sometimes I am in the mood to just BS around with Magic or luck games like Euchre(ever have an all black hand, when a hearts is turned up and the guys say "I'll pick it up", I just want to laugh its so ridiculous.):)
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Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
I will freely admit to being mathematically challenged. The figures I quote were done by some math whiz and it's been many years since I saw them, so I'm not offering my memory as fact, just making a point. Does anybody have any figures on the percentage of mana screw/flood that occurs in Top 8 play? I would be interested in seeing those types of figures kept and tracked.
But none of this speaks to my original post - have any of you tried the White Lotus format?
The Big Screw is part of the game and we MUST learn to live with it, or play something with no mana/energy involved. Most guys I know who have an undying hate for manascrew just play green land search, but thats not my style...
The point is, if you keep getting land screwed or flooded, just tune your deck. It is that simple. Maybe your just lazy voice of all, and I can't help you with that, but deck tuning we can help with.
MaRo has repeatedly stated (and I agree) that Garfield's most important element to the success of MTG is the land/mana element. It builds in a automatic, but unpredictable, clock, and forces inteligent and carfull design. Messing with that is really asking for disaster.
I like the randomness, but, IMHO, the game should not be as random as it is.
Your opinion is just that, yours, and judging by this thread, far from humble. The game is as it is, and it "should be" just that way. There's no reason to change it,and if you don't like it, change games.
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...
I have no extendo-sig. Sorry, I'm just not vain enough to think someone will click on it.
The point is, if you keep getting land screwed or flooded, just tune your deck. It is that simple. Maybe your just lazy voice of all, and I can't help you with that, but deck tuning we can help with.
No, I am not lazy.
Anyway, I bought 2 flooded strands a while back, and I got to thinking. FETCH LANDS!!!!:p
I need more fetchlands, I want 8 in the deck, Strands and Delta's. That way I can put 25 lands in a deck(maybe more!), get enough lands much more often, but not manaflood, I wish they were not soo hard to get. Why didn't anybody mention that instead of "this is stupid...blah". I might as well get more dual lands(all I have is one Tundra).
Click here to visit my userpage at Wikipedia, where I am currently an administrator.:cool2:
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
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"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Vs, Duel Masters, YuGiOh, Pokemon, etc. etc. etc.
if you don't want to lose to mana screw every now & then, play those.
if you don't want to lose to mana screw and don't want to play those, get over it and quit complaining
Land Tax, Tithe, Weathered Wayfarer, Rampant Growth, Wayfarer's Bauble, Untamed Wilds, Explosive Vegetation, Mana Severance, Mulch, Abundance, etc. all called.....getting land screwed every once in a while is just part of the game. but when you're getting land screwed often, guess what? its your fault.
WHITE LOTUS
Player Enchantment
White Lotus is not a permanent and cannot be affected by anything.
Before play, put White Lotus onto the table. You may remove any card from your hand from the game during your Play Land Phase and put a Basic Land from outside the game into play. Cards removed from the game in this manner may not be returned to the game. Prior to play, you may may not have more than one copy of any card in your deck and your deck must be at least 60 cards.
This forces 'Highlander' (I believe they call it 'Singleton' nowadays) style deckbuilding, and removes the option of multiple cards in your deck for the trade-off of mana consistency. We've tried it a few times among ourselves and find it a VERY viable alternative to the problems associated with mana screw/flooding. It is no more fun to win against this condition than it is to lose to it. All the deck building skills in the world mean nothing when it happens to you. I'm not advocating everybody should get The Nuts draws every time - randomness through shuffling is just as important to MTG as randomness of deckstyle you face with each new opponent. That is what makes MTG what it is.
Somebody once calculated the odds of mana screw/flooding to an average of 1 in 14 or something like that. Given the odds, why don't we just roll a d20 before each game and if you roll 15-20 just agree that you lost that game to mana screw and move on to the next duel? What's the difference? The effect is the same. I believe the difference is we enjoy the randomness of the game, but would like to find a viable way of removing the randomness of the Automatic Loss. This subject pops up periodically - always has and always will. I think the White Lotus option is a viable alternative. If you want a dependable mana base, then you must be willing to trade off something - multiple copies of cards doesn't seem too much to ask. It certainly does bring an entirely new level of play in deciding what to throw away versus what to keep. Deckbuilding is not as difficult as you might think, however. Give it a try.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1988614295/worlds-finest-mtg-pewter-life-spinner-is-about-to?ref=category
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=16581
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH_UXXKRzlM
Good Deckbuilding. It works nine times out of ten, and helps me win a lot of my games.
now begins the thousand years of REIGN OF BLOOD!
This is what happens when you don't understand probabilities. Assuming that the statistic is correct (and I'm not sure it is), 1 in 14 is more like rolling a d20 and losing if you roll a 1, and sometimes if you roll a 2. Look at it. 1 in 14 is about 7%, whereas losing on a roll of 15-20 on a d20 is equal to 30%. Pretty big difference, no?
Traz, your math is nonetheless off quite a bit.
I have decks with 23 lands, sometimes I topdeck straight spells for 6 turns(I win!), sometimes my starting hand has 2-3 lands(yay!); very often though, I get topdeck 6 lands or start off with 5 lands in my hand. This is not just bad shuffling, it is statistics, such thing are bound to happen somewhat frequently. You and the top finalist can dual and you win just because he drew 7 forest in a row on the third game. His deck may be perfectly balanced and all but it didn't help. So does this mean that his skill level is poor and that he is an idiot and can't build decks, no, obviously, it is just the automatic loss that people randomly get, sometimes it balances out if both people get screwed, other times it doesn't. Also, winning because my opponent is mana flooding for 7 turn or is mana skrewed is very lame and boring, and so is losing because of that...I could go on...
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
Probably 1/3 is luck in some formatts, 50% luck in newer formatts(where cards are less general, so you have to metagame and hope that you don't start of with bad matchups of archetypes). I like the randomness, but, IMHO, the game should not be as random as it is.
Now sometimes I am in the mood to just BS around with Magic or luck games like Euchre(ever have an all black hand, when a hearts is turned up and the guys say "I'll pick it up", I just want to laugh its so ridiculous.):)
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter
But none of this speaks to my original post - have any of you tried the White Lotus format?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1988614295/worlds-finest-mtg-pewter-life-spinner-is-about-to?ref=category
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=16581
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH_UXXKRzlM
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Your opinion is just that, yours, and judging by this thread, far from humble. The game is as it is, and it "should be" just that way. There's no reason to change it,and if you don't like it, change games.
I have no extendo-sig. Sorry, I'm just not vain enough to think someone will click on it.
No, I am not lazy.
Anyway, I bought 2 flooded strands a while back, and I got to thinking. FETCH LANDS!!!!:p
I need more fetchlands, I want 8 in the deck, Strands and Delta's. That way I can put 25 lands in a deck(maybe more!), get enough lands much more often, but not manaflood, I wish they were not soo hard to get. Why didn't anybody mention that instead of "this is stupid...blah". I might as well get more dual lands(all I have is one Tundra).
"Your attack has been rendered quite harmless, it is however, quite pretty." -Saprazzan vizier
"It was probably a lowsy spell in the first place." -Ertai, wizer adept
"The duel was going badly for me and Zur thought I was finished. He boasted that he would eat my soul--but all he ate were his words." -Gustha Ebbasdotter