MTG Salvation

My position on the Elder Dragons (which I think I've stated elsewhere) is that they should:

1. All be a tight cycle around mana costs (NCDEF, i.e. N generic mana, 1 mana of each of its four colors CDEF, and the same CMC across all)
2. All have the type line, "Legendary Creature — Elder Dragon"
3. All be mythic rare
4. All have the same power / toughness
5. All have flying

Personally, I would love it if they were completely loose other than that, and as distinctive from one another as possible. I took a crack at designing one earlier with the feed mechanic, but my intention was certainly not to give all the Elder Dragons feed. Rather, like Chromium in Legends 1, he was just going to be the odd one out with a set mechanic.

But, if you or anybody else has a great idea for a more uniform Elder Dragon cycle, I'm not necessarily against it. I just want each of the Elder Dragons to be as cool as possible.

To put it another way, I think that the Invasion / Planar Chaos Dragon cycles were too tight, and the Dragons of Tarkir Elder Dragon cycle was a little too loose. So, aiming for the middle.

As for 4-color support, I don't see it as an explicit theme of the set. Yes, there are two cycles of 4-color cards but I'm not envisioning it like Shards of Alara or Khans of Tarkir where there's a bunch of effort to shore up factions and mechanical identities for each 4-color group. I think that would pull focus from our legendary theme, our nostalgia theme, and even the more general multicolor theme.

But, of course, as with everything, feel free to disagree! My vision isn't the only one, here.

One on the run...

Lorr Arcanum (Mythic)
3GWUB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon
6/6
Flying
When Lorr Arcanum enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control.
2, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Choose one -
* Draw a card.
* You gain 4 life.
* Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.

Alright, I want to address exalted.

Back in 2015 I was all for it, but now I'm kind of souring on the mechanic. Conversely, back in 2015 I was sour on grandeur, but now I'm all about it.

The problem with exalted as I see it is that it's all about buffing your ONE BIG GUY, but as I'm understanding L2, we actually want to encourage players to play legends in a lot of different ways. Maybe you're going to have a whole "party" of legendary creatures. Maybe there's a duo that works really well. We want that kind of exploration to happen organically and I think that pushing exalted into the set sends the message that you should just be focusing on your ONE BIG GUY. To be clear, I want to support you playing your ONE BIG GUY if that's what you want to do, but I think that codifying that play style with a set keyword is the wrong move.

Also, I think we should do more new ability/keywords than returning ability/keywords. I think the ideal number of set-specific ability/keywords here is four. So, basically, I think we should have only one returning ability/keyword, and I think grandeur should be it.

Agree / disagree?

...agree. Your reasoning has a way of persuading me. Exalted in every color is a pet idea of mine and I may use it elsewhere, as a complement.

Alright, so I'm looking to propose a slate of themes and mechanics, and I'm keeping an eye towards color balance. I'm going to break down the themes and mechanics I believe are still under consideration, and weight them to the colors I believe would make most sense. I'm not going to include colorless cards (artifacts / lands) in the accounting, but you can assume they're there, or at least the possibility for them is there, as appropriate.

Legendary cards — W 20%; U 20%; B 20%; R 20%; G 20%
Multicolor cards — W 20%; U 20%; B 20%; R 20%; G 20%
Nostalgic cards — W 20%; U 20%; B 20%; R 20%; G 20%
Grandeur — W 20%; U 20%; B 20%; R 20%; G 20%
Versatile / Tiered Creatures — W 20%; U 20%; B 20%; R 20%; G 20%
-----
Walls / Walls Matter — W 40%; U 20%; B 0%; R 30%; G 10%
Upkeep / Upkeep Matters — W 0%; U 20%; B 40%; R 10%; G 30%
Shrink / 1/1s Matter — W 30%; U 20%; B 0%; R 10%; G 40%
Gold Tokens — W 10%; U 20%; B 40%; R 30%; G 0%

You might ask, where's feed? Where are the Party Auras? Well, I've soured on both of those mechanics for different reasons.

Regarding feed, the big thing that turned me against it was the elegance of old-school upkeep cards like Hungry Mist. As I looked at feed, and looked at old school upkeep cards, feed just felt clunky. And while downside mechanics are usually frowned upon in the Modern context, I feel like they're a nostalgic tool, and actually kind of perfect for the kind of set we're trying to do, here. So, I've titled the mechanical entry "Upkeep / Upkeep Matters" and kept it in the same color weights I envisioned for feed, but now I just want to do traditional pay-mana-or-sac upkeep costs without a keyword, and then sprinkle stuff that cares about upkeep costs into those colors as well.

Regarding the Party Auras, I just can't make it work. While it looks simple and elegant as written on the card, the problem is when you actually have to start playing with those Auras, and you have multiple Auras overlapping different combinations of creatures. Once you hit three of those Auras on the battlefield (or fewer, with the enchant-three versions), the potential is there for object organization to completely break down. I tried some different versions of the mechanic to try to make it more like soulbond, and I came up with what I think is a workable version of that, but IMO it has an extremely small design space and would only be suitable for a 5-card cycle or so, probably at higher rarities. And I think we're looking for stuff with a bit more space, that can exist at common.

I'm not 100% on versatile or tiered creatures, still, but I think there's a chance they could make it in, so I've kept it in the breakdown, above. The big issue here is, again, a worry that it needs to be weighted to higher rarities. But maybe it can be pushed down to common, too. I'm also keeping an eye out for rules issues.

So, long story short, what do I think we need to finish our mechanics slate?

• A combat keyword / ability word would be GREAT.
• Alternatively, something that focuses on / can exist on noncreature cards would be ALSO GREAT.
• A keyword / ability word that can exist at common would be BEYOND GREAT.

Hopefully we'll get this all hammered out this week.

A couple of ideas.

EDIT: I know these are common custom mechanics, but they nonetheless are yet to have been done.

VENERATE (bad for red)
Loyal Squire (Common)
1W
Creature - Human Soldier
1/2
Venerate - Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, it gains vigilance.

Ipso Scout (Common)
U
Creature - Human Scout
1/1
Venerate - Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, scry 1.


SPECTRAL (bad for colorless)
Rainbows and Unicorns (Common)
2W
Sorcery
Create two 1/1 white Unicorn creature tokens.
Spectral - You gain 1 life for each color among permanents you control.

Irreverent Revenant (Common)
4B
Creature - Zombie
3/3
Spectral - When Irreverent Revenant dies, target creature an opponent controls gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each color among cards in your graveyard.

I am 100% on tiered. I don't know how much my vote of confidence means to everyone else's, and this is a consensus thing, so...

Also, if we don't want exalted, venerate is probably also out.

For a nonblue theme: "Damaging/pumping creatures matters"? The problem is making this less broad... and less like heroic.

Also, I kind of want to change around the color weighting in the themes to keep it even (i.e. each color gets a 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%, and 40%).

Quote from void_nothing »

Also, I kind of want to change around the color weighting in the themes to keep it even (i.e. each color gets a 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%, and 40%).

Well, it's even in that, if each theme were to get an equal number of cards, then each color would have an even number of themed cards (if you look at all of the uneven weights, they add up to 80% for each color).

I actually kind of like it that blue can dabble a little bit in every theme, whereas black is all-in with two and zilch with the other two, for example.

Basically, I don't feel like any color is getting the short straw. Some are shorter than others, but they get more straws.

But if you don't like it I could be convinced.

Quote from Guesswork »

Quote from void_nothing »

Also, I kind of want to change around the color weighting in the themes to keep it even (i.e. each color gets a 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%, and 40%).

Well, it's even in that, if each theme were to get an equal number of cards, then each color would have an even number of themed cards (if you look at all of the uneven weights, they add up to 80% for each color).

I actually kind of like it that blue can dabble a little bit in every theme, whereas black is all-in with two and zilch with the other two, for example.

Basically, I don't feel like any color is getting the short straw. Some are shorter than others, but they get more straws.

But if you don't like it I could be convinced.

I'm not that set in my ways, but my very literal case of obsessive-compulsive disorder makes me want the maximum amount of symmetry possible.

Quote from void_nothing »

I'm not that set in my ways, but my very literal case of obsessive-compulsive disorder makes me want the maximum amount of symmetry possible.

Think of it not as asymmetry but as covert symmetry.

Of course, I'm the kind of guy that can stare at a stucco ceiling and infer an endless series of cryptic patterns and secret intentions. Sober, even!

PROPOSAL #1

A) Mythologize
Color Weighting: W 20%; U 20%; B 20%; R 20%; G 20%
May Also Appear on C Cards?: Yes
Appears at Rarities: Common, Uncommon
Other Proposed Names: Immortalize, Glorify
Notes: The set's 5-color keyword, replacing Grandeur. Why did I suddenly want to replace Grandeur, after just being all for it? Because I couldn't come up with a full slate of mechanics where Grandeur fit well. I also think this may have a number of advantages over Grandeur, in that it actually encourages you to play more copies of your legend rather than discard them.

B) Avow
Color Weighting: W 40%; U 10%; B 30%; R 0%; G 20%
May Also Appear on C Cards?: No
Appears at Rarities: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Mythic Rare
Other Proposed Names: Open to ideas!
Notes: I expect avow to be a smaller mechanic (10 cards is my target) but I want to pair it with additional pro-Aura themes in the same color weights to make it a more robust theme. I think avow needs to be, generically, a mechanic that makes Aura tokens, rather than specifically a mechanic that makes double Aura tokens. I still want to see some double Aura makers in the set, since that was the reason we wanted a mechanic like this in the first place.

C) Wall Tribal
Color Weighting: W 20%; U 40%; B 10%; R 30%; G 0%
May Also Appear on C Cards?: Yes
Appears at Rarities: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Mythic Rare
Other Proposed Names: N/A
Notes: It's not "defender matters", it's Wall tribal. So, creature type — Wall, and things that care about creature type — Wall. Plus, of course, cool Walls. I see this being split into 10 cards in the above color-weights that are explicitly Wall tribal (some of which may be Walls themselves), and 10 color-weighted Walls with no tribal effects. Plus, additional support with colorless Walls.

D) Old-School Upkeep
Color Weighting: W 0%; U 20%; B 40%; R 10%; G 30%
May Also Appear on C Cards?: Yes
Appears at Raritites: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Mythic Rare
Other Proposed Names: N/A
Notes: To be very clear here, what I mean when I say old-school upkeep follows the very narrow template of "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice ~NAME~ unless you pay ~COST~", i.e., the Elder Dragon upkeep costs. I'm not necessarily sure if this mechanic needs to be smaller or larger, but I want it to pair with some effects that care about upkeep, as well, in the above color weights.

E) Frenzy
Color Weighting: W 30%; U 0%; B 20%; R 40%; G 10%
May Also Appear on C Cards?: Yes
Appears at Rarities: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Mythic Rare
Other Proposed Names: N/A
Notes: I said I wanted one returning mechanic, and I wanted a combat keyword! I needed something that was going to be primarily in Mardu colors, and frenzy feels decidedly old-school, so it fit the bill. I also think it's a good foil for the Wall tribal theme, and my gut tells me it will have good tension in the slower environment we're trying to set up.

F) Inflict
Color Weighting: W 10%; U 30%; B 0%; R 20%; G 40%
May Also Appear on C Cards?: Maybe
Appears at Rarities: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Mythic Rare
Other Proposed Names: Minimize, Shrink
Notes: My Shrink mechanic was actually the mechanic that was having an undesirable marriage with Grandeur. So, I looked at the other previously-proposed ideas for a mechanic that could represent the shrinking flavor. I wasn't so hot on Inflict at first, but now I'm all-but-convinced that it's the right choice, here. I just think it has to go mostly on big cards with big colored-mana costs (especially multicolor). That shouldn't be a problem, right?

I'm glad to see Grandeur go.

I'm also all for Frenzy. Great idea. I think void will be happy with it in the absence of Exalted. And it feels old-school ala Rampage.

I'm fine with Inflict/Shrink. I think "Shrink" sounds better for L2. It has an old-school sound.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's wanted good Walls since Rolling Stones.

I'm down with old-school upkeep too. I think there's still plenty of simple but fun design space there.

I'm wondering - will Avow be on other card types like creatures and instants?

I'm in favor of Immortalize over Mythologize, but won't pick a bone about it. Whatever you and void want is fine.


As you can see, this post is all about me, myself, and I'm.

Quote from Legend »

As you can see, this post is all about me, myself, and I'm.

Which is fine. Very happy to have your input.

I'm glad that you saw the same rampage / frenzy flavor connection that I did. I think it will be a lot of fun to design with it, here.

As for Avow — YES — I'm looking to expand it past the Logos cycle that I initially proposed. I think we need to aim for the bleachers with it and design as broadly as we can. I think the essence of the ability word is that it somehow creates one or more Aura tokens with a unique name. The number of Auras or the method of creation are flexible, but I think every application needs to be something that couldn't just be done with a regular (nontoken) Aura. Another potential restriction I will float: every card that has avow needs to be an enchantment, and enchantment creatures would be allowed in the set. (This is just a suggestion, but I think it might help tighten up the theme.) Also, we're probably looking at renaming it in light of the broader flavor. Any suggestions?

Glad you like the idea of renaming "inflict" to "shrink" — that was going to be my proposal.

I think we need to also think big with Walls. I think Wall tribal is a great excuse to do things with Walls that wouldn't be done in any other set. Personally, I'm thinking of doing at least one Wall that DOESN'T have defender.

I'm really not attached to "mythologize" over "immortalize", I just want players to be able to grok the mechanic. If "immortalize" doesn't cause confusion / disappointment, then I think it's a pretty clever name.

I... I like the immortalize name.

*heavy breathing*

*Ride of the Valkyries plays*

*I spontaneously grow a woodsman beard and start running down the ramp to the ring pointing in the air repeatedly*

I'M DOWN.

Sweet!

Let's do this.

Quote from void_nothing »

I... I like the immortalize name.

And so shall it henceforth be known!

Now, you'll notice that I went back and evened out all of the color weights of the non-immortalize mechanics so that every color gets a 40%, a 30%, a 20%, a 10%, and a 0%, for maximum OCD satisfaction. And, void_nothing, you had earlier suggested that we build around some 4-color themes and I had basically ignored that request... well, no longer! I think that's how we should structure the flavor of the set.

Now I'm thinking of L2's setting as being sort of a cross between Magic Origins, Shards of Alara block, and Mercadian Masques block. In short, I think we ought to think of it as a massive, multi-planar adventure (like Masques block) where we visit five different planes (like Alara block) but those planes have no other cosmological connection to one another (like Magic Origins). And, I think the five planes should be chosen to suit our five non-immortalize mechanics.

Clearly and (I hope) understandably, I wand the RGWU (shrink) plane to be Segovia. And I still think that the Hippodrome and some sort of Ben-Hur-esque chariot combat should be our major story hook, there.

But what should the other four planes be? I'm open to established (has been a major block/set setting), semi-established (has appeared in flavor text or as a Planechase plane) or brand-new planes, and I think it would be cool to do at least one plane from each category.

I have a flavor concept I'm very excited about for the Wall tribal (WUBR) plane, so I'm going to try to develop that first. I have an inkling of an idea for the frenzy (BRGW) plane, but I think that if anybody has a great idea for that., they should chime in. I have basically no unifying flavor ideas for the old-school upkeep (UBRG) plane or the avow (GWUB) plane at this point, so the field is wide-open for your suggestions!

What do you guys think? Going in the right direction, here?

Segovia is definitely a must-have under these concepts; I'm sure I'm gonna love Walltriballandia; and... perchance is your idea for Frenzylandia, Valla? Maybe that's a bit stereotypical, so we can go a little odder with it. That color combination suggests deserts and stuff because no water and whatnot but what if it's not that kind of desert? Some sort of Antarctic world? Or prehistoric Native America? I seem to recall you had a draft-that-pack with a Navajo mythology set...

Oldschoolupkeeplandia feels like it needs an old school fantasy feel; is there a way to make it the Robert E. Howard Plane without being just Raksu? Alternately, Celtic world with geases and hungry crow-goddesses and all that.

Avow is a little less concrete so I gotta work on that.

Quote from void_nothing »

perchance is your idea for Frenzylandia, Valla?

It isn't, but it could be!

My inkling was basically a pastoral, idyllic Central European setting that comes under the influence of some Stephen King / M. Night Shamyalan phenomenon that turns peaceful citizens into Reavers. But, you know, that has obvious parallels to SOI block so it's maybe not the greatest idea (though to be fair, the endgame in my mind would not be cosmic horror, but again something more Firefly-esque like a massive conspiratorial cover-up). I think that if you have a good idea for Valla that you should flesh it out; my idea really extends no farther than that (although I do have an Elder Dragon design for the frenzy faction that I think is super awesome mega cool).

Quote from void_nothing »

Oldschoolupkeeplandia feels like it needs an old school fantasy feel; is there a way to make it the Robert E. Howard Plane without being just Raksu?

It can be Raksu. I mean... it's actually a little perfect, if I'm being selfish.

One of my issues with Raksu was that, in order to cram it into the two-set-block structure, I had to start it off en the most medias of res, assuming a familiarity with the setting that wasn't there, and skipping all exposition in favor of getting to the wasteland barbarians vs. arco-fortress psion action (again, thanks Amonkhet for partially sarnathing my concept, here). Getting a teaser of Raksu before the main event — whatever that main event is after I revise it to look less like Amonkhet — would help the block out a lot, I think. And the upkeep theme fits very well.

Quote from void_nothing »

Alternately, Celtic world with geases and hungry crow-goddesses and all that.

I was thinking Lorwyn / Shadowmoor for a returning plane. Funny, that! Do you think there's a way to make it fit?

I think my best idea for frenzy is Native America, 5000 Years BCE or whatnot: The Mississippian cultures with their mound building and war paint and generally prehistoric battle stuff.

EDIT: Wait, I've already used Amerindians and frenzy together, in the Collaborative Create-a-Booster's Stavado! If "Stavado but in the past from when that block was supposed to be" doesn't work I'd rather be very different than the Natives idea.

I don't think upkeep can be LorMoor - just doesn't sit correctly. I'd prefer a new Celtic setting. If anything I'd put Lorwyn-Shadowmoor as the avow plane, as there's a bit of a connection to the general idea of being "enchanted" there and those worlds had some memorable Auras.

Quote from void_nothing »

I don't think upkeep can be LorMoor - just doesn't sit correctly. I'd prefer a new Celtic setting. If anything I'd put Lorwyn-Shadowmoor as the avow plane, as there's a bit of a connection to the general idea of being "enchanted" there and those worlds had some memorable Auras.

Maybe Lorwyn / Shadowmoor just doesn't work. Best not to force it. I think there's room to do legends from planes other than the main five we're going to visit, so we can get it in that way.

As for avow, I want to bring up Theros mostly just to rule it out. It's the obvious choice for enchantment-heavy stuff, but I also feel like Theros needs a bigger stage that can do justice to all of its Gods and drama and such. It doesn't feel like a great location for a side-story stopover. But I could be convinced if somebody has a great angle on it.

I like the idea of an ancient Mississippian plane, but that alone doesn't say "frenzy" to me, so I feel like we need additional story justification for it. Like, what does frenzy represent in this context? What's different about this plane such that we see the ability here, and not on all the random Berserkers and Warriors that we've seen elsewhere?

I'm trying to spitball from the Antarctica thing again for frenzy: "At the Mountains of Madness"-style stuff? Pibloqto? As your concern was, I don't want to rehash SOI block... There's got to be the seed of something flavorfully great somewhere.

Quote from void_nothing »

I'm trying to spitball from the Antarctica thing again for frenzy: "At the Mountains of Madness"-style stuff? Pibloqto? As your concern was, I don't want to rehash SOI block... There's got to be the seed of something flavorfully great somewhere.

I am tentatively on board for an Arctic / Antarctic theme for Frenzyworld. On board, because the idea of people losing their minds in a place of extreme isolation and environmental hostility is some rich storytelling soil. Tentatively, because I have no idea how to translate that flavor into the peculiar storytelling language of Magic: the Gathering. But, I'm excited to try! And I'm excited to watch you try, too. So I think we should give it a whack.

In brief, my concept for Walltribalworld is a plane that is one enormous, magically-created subterranean labyrinth. Kind of like the labyrinth worlds of Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos, but with inhabitants. A survey of Planechase planes pegs Xerex as maybe a potential fit, but it would be just fine to go all-new on this one, I think. How does that grab you?

To change the subject, I'm convinced of a few things:

1. L2 needs to make legends relevant to every card type.
2. Planeswalkers are a card type.
3. L2 needs planeswalkers.
4. Given the plane-hopping nature of my most recent story suggestion for L2, it makes sense that planeswalkers would actually be our protagonists.
5. Our story, in some way, involves these planeswalkers striving to gain an audience with each of the five "Eldest Dragons" who are, in turn, hiding out on our five different planes. In the process, the meet and require the help / gain the enmity of any number of other legends.

So, assuming you are now also convinced of these things (and you don't have to be) my question is, who is in our party of planeswalkers? And are you as happy to assume, as I am, that it involves NOBODY from the Jacetice League?

Sorry for answering my own question, but IMO, Tuknir so obviously needs to be a planeswalker in this set.

Looking over the slate of existing planeswalkers, I'm not too thrilled by any of them. So much baggage.

Quote from Guesswork »

...who is in our party of planeswalkers? And are you as happy to assume, as I am, that it involves NOBODY from the Jacetice League?

Thank you. This was my thought as soon as I read "planeswalkers". I'm quite over the superfriends.

If I can chime in, this is what I think right now.

Well, if our protagonists need the four elder dragons, then Sarkhan or Narset seem like great fits. If we focus on one of them, Tarkir could be the frenzy world.

Avow could be good for a world with a hive-mind or swarm feel to it. It also kinda reminds me of slivers, but I think the two are too similar to be in the same set. As for the plane's 'walker - maybe it's a hivemaster or a high-ranking official of the hive that wants to further the agenda of his faction on multiple worlds.

Upkeep - Dominaria? This might be fitting because of Time Spiral's time theme, but as we all know it had some big problems. I kinda like it because the original Legends was set there, so it might help with the nostalgia angle. I think the planeswalker should be someone new (Or maybe Tuknir?).

And just a random design:

Lamirag, the Wandering Scion 7
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi (R/M)
When you cast Lamirag, the Wandering Scion, each player may draw up to three cards.
Vigilance
Whenever Lamirag attacks, each player may put a creature card from his or her hand onto the battlefield.
A monstrosity as innocent as childhood itself.
10/10

The flavor is that this Eldrazi titan has become lost as a "child" while traveling through the blind eternities, and while searching for its siblings learned of the concepts of innocence, morality and community. Now it is an innocent, sweethearted, unfathomable, reality-distorting monstrosity. I hope you enjoy it!