Prey Upon could be effectively reprinted as 'fastbal special', which is what I mean by using existing fight mechanics, although for added flavor you could also tap a creature and add his power to the fighting creature.
I dislike the idea of creatures attacking creatures feels too much like yu-gi-oh.
MOON-E I like some of your ideas for mechanics I'm all in for Traps, Equipment matters and a "team up" mechanic that shows up more in mutants. However I really don't know if I like the Exalted-like "one hero" mechanic. I'd rather have the trope on a few cards. Instead I think we should have a sidekick/hunchment mechanic or base the mechanics on what type of powers the hero/villian have.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It might be a good idea to start by outlining what mechanics we're looking for. For instance, Theros started with "Heroes, Gods, Monsters", RtR started with "One mechanic for each guild". Zendikar was "Maps, Traps, and Chaps". We should create an outline of what we're looking for, then start brainstorming ideas in each category.
It seems like everyone likes traps, but is that enough for villains? Do you expect villains to get more or less space than heroes? Do heroes and villains necessarily need to split mechanics, or can they share?
I already shared my potential outline of the set, what are you all looking for?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I'd like to see 1 "hero" mechanic, 1 "villain" mechanic, 1 "sidekick/hunchperson" mechanic and 1 "hero/villain" mechanic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Do sidekicks/henchpeople really get their own mechanic? I always figured they'd just be support cards, there'd be one or two to help out here and there, but nothing like a full mechanic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I thinks so, the biggest reason sidekick where introduce was to give the readers a character to relate to (and it work after Robin was introduce Batman sales doubled), and magic's age rage starts at 13 makes since to make sidekicks aged around there. And even though there are many loner heroes a LOT of heroes have some sort of sidekick/protege/partner.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
We don't really need a "sidekick" mechanic though. Those things can be referenced in cards. Heck, if you want, you could even do something like the Beast Advocate, where our "Robin" gets +2/+2 if you control a "Batman".
The same goes for henchmen. We could always do a "search for this card when it ETBs" to represent that. We don't necessarily need a mechanic for it.
We don't really need a "sidekick" mechanic though. Those things can be referenced in cards. Heck, if you want, you could even do something like the Beast Advocate, where our "Robin" gets +2/+2 if you control a "Batman".
The same goes for henchmen. We could always do a "search for this card when it ETBs" to represent that. We don't necessarily need a mechanic for it.
I agree with this. Just like secret identities, sidekicks are an important trope that should be in the set, it just doesn't seem like something that's so central to the gameplay that it would require it's own mechanic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
That is kinda what I was going to say, that sidekicks can be super specific and work just fine, or even a little open (like 'tap to give a white creature you control flying until the end of turn').
As for minions, I would treat them like wizards... like villain A might have 'tap 3 minions to draw a card' while villain B might say 'tap 3 minions to deal 3 damage to target player'.
And of course the only villains that would have those mechanics would be the ones who need minions, so Gigantabrute works alone smashing everything in sight, but Dr. Caos might have a bunch of guys doing stuff for him.
Alright well it seems like we at least all agree that there should be a mutant mechanic. Maybe we should start there? I'm kinda feeling a +1/+1 counter vibe from them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Alright well it seems like we at least all agree that there should be a mutant mechanic. Maybe we should start there? I'm kinda feeling a +1/+1 counter vibe from them.
That would be very Simic so I dig that. Maybe a riff on evolve or level up, like 'Mutate: whenever X happens put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.' that being something like you draw a card, a non token creature comes into play, you gain life or a creature dies. Also maybe they all could have a power that triggers, be it something static (if it has 4 or more counters it gains trample) or triggered (if it has 4 or more counters, remove all countes and do X).
I would avoid sharing powers amongst creatures with counters since that detracts from individuality, which is a huge theme of super heroics.
Alright well it seems like we at least all agree that there should be a mutant mechanic. Maybe we should start there? I'm kinda feeling a +1/+1 counter vibe from them.
That would be very Simic so I dig that. Maybe a riff on evolve or level up, like 'Mutate: whenever X happens put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.' that being something like you draw a card, a non token creature comes into play, you gain life or a creature dies. Also maybe they all could have a power that triggers, be it something static (if it has 4 or more counters it gains trample) or triggered (if it has 4 or more counters, remove all countes and do X).
I would avoid sharing powers amongst creatures with counters since that detracts from individuality, which is a huge theme of super heroics.
I like the idea of powers activating when you reach a certain threshold (even if it's just a single +1/+1 counter, depending on the trigger). I also agree that even though we want these creatures to work together, sharing powers doesn't seem very super-hero-y.
An obvious and boring route would be to have an ally type trigger with mutants gaining counters for other mutants. But, as I said, that's pretty boring and too played out.
Evolve would be a nice one, though over on the creative side we're kind of leaning towards mutants being science-y as opposed to natural born, so that might lead to some confusing flavor. Then again, none of the simic creatures were natural either, and evolve is a mechanic that could totally fit into every color.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I like evolve mostly because it works without being tribal and it can fit in every color. Plus with a +1/+1 counter thresholds ability it would give a different feel from Ravnica evolve. For flavor reasons I'd say we don't have any thing like Simic Fluxmage or Bioshift so it show the mutants aren't sharing abilities.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I really like evolve too, and having the "size threshold abilities" was my way of making it feel different from ravnica (more focus on "evolve once" than "keep getting bigger and bigger"). I'm all for it as long as people are ok with using it as our one-ish returning mechanic. (I don't think traps really count, or at least both could come back).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I really like evolve too, and having the "size threshold abilities" was my way of making it feel different from ravnica (more focus on "evolve once" than "keep getting bigger and bigger"). I'm all for it as long as people are ok with using it as our one-ish returning mechanic. (I don't think traps really count, or at least both could come back).
Maro said it was okay to have two returning mechanics on his tumblr (Theros had Devotion (chroma)and Scry) and as long as we make evolve and trap different enough from older sets it works.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I know, but it means we couldn't/shouldn't introduce another returning mechanic (importantly morph or transform), which means it's still a big commitment. I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks on this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Evolve doesn't seem like an ideal candidate for the mutant flavor we want. The mutant flavor we want is of an internal and intrinsically biological time bomb going off and forcing the character to reckon with new and unfamiliar and often terrifying abilities, not so much the Simic Combine's take on togetherness and group growth. Which isn't to say I currently have a better idea.
Trusty Sidekick (Common) 2U
Creature - Human
1/1 T: Target creature you control gets +1/+1 and gains "When this creature deals combat damage this turn, draw a card."
Evolve doesn't seem like an ideal candidate for the mutant flavor we want. The mutant flavor we want is of an internal and intrinsically biological time bomb going off and forcing the character to reckon with new and unfamiliar and often terrifying abilities, not so much the Simic Combine's take on togetherness and group growth. Which isn't to say I currently have a better idea.
I don't know if we're really going to be able to capture the thesis of x-men in this medium. Magic's better at representing broad themes (Fear, Growth, etc.) than the specific storytelling metaphors you're talking about. Not saying we shouldn't try as best we can to capture the source material, just that it may need to be less specific.
Trusty Sidekick (Common) 2U
Creature - Human
1/1 T: Target creature you control gets +1/+1 and gains "When this creature deals combat damage this turn, draw a card."
Lots of sidekicks could make a powerful force.
I'm not sure how many of these I want running around in limited making combat math hard, but I do like this design.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
HI Y'all, sorry for never posting, my internet has been terrible XD. Anyway, let me weigh in:
On Morph/Transform: Neither really achieves what we want, I think we should just design something new.
On Mutants: I feel like the whole problem lies in us trying to make a an evolve mechanic, where I feel like this is not the way we should go about it. I personally think that since we are probably going to make Auras that function as superpowers, why not make it a mechanic related to being enchanted, like this:
Mutation-- As long as this creature is enchanted, effect
For Example:
Mutating Mutant 1UG
Creature -- Mutant Hero Mutation -- As long as this creature is enchanted, you may pay (G/U)(G/U) during your upkeep. If you do, reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put an Aura revealed this way into your hand and put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
2/2
In addition, to cover how Auras play into powers changing over time, maybe we could bring back Aura Swap?
I feel like auras are not the way to go. I mean, i'm sure we'll have more than a few auras that represent super powers, but I don't think they should be a major focus of the set for a couple of reasons:
- A strong aura theme requires some form of "aura compensation". RoE had totem armor, Theros has bestow, to make auras viable, we'd most likely have to dedicate a mechanic to just making auras playable
- An aura theme puts more focus on the auras than the creatures. It all powers are auras, it means the creatures we make are more like empty vessels. That works fine on theros, but I don't think it works as well here in a genre where individualism is key.
- We already know we want an equipment theme, and having both auras and equipment mattering separately in the same set may prove too much.
- We're just coming out of Theros block which had an aura theme. That's not necessarily a reason on it's own not to do something, but this set really wants to feel different from theros. Super heroes are pretty different from greek heroes, so I don't think it's a good idea to tread on the same ground.
If there is going to be any kind of aura theme, I think it'd be rolled into the equipment theme. That way it would at least fit into the flavor of DIY heroes needing some outside force to achieve super status.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Other great superhero cards:
Riot Gear
Uncanny Speed
Mugging
etc.
www.theconnoisseurs.com
MOON-E I like some of your ideas for mechanics I'm all in for Traps, Equipment matters and a "team up" mechanic that shows up more in mutants. However I really don't know if I like the Exalted-like "one hero" mechanic. I'd rather have the trope on a few cards. Instead I think we should have a sidekick/hunchment mechanic or base the mechanics on what type of powers the hero/villian have.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
It seems like everyone likes traps, but is that enough for villains? Do you expect villains to get more or less space than heroes? Do heroes and villains necessarily need to split mechanics, or can they share?
I already shared my potential outline of the set, what are you all looking for?
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Citizens for the most part being common/tokens and low range power level regardless of rarity with a great amount literally being "Race Citizen".
Sidekicks for the most part being uncommon and focusing on granting abilities and mid range power level.
Supers for the most part being rare/mythic and high range power level.
Perhaps an ability could be "Super - Whenever CARDNAME is the target of a COLOR spell, something special happens."?
Also, I don't think this set will work without supers at common.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The same goes for henchmen. We could always do a "search for this card when it ETBs" to represent that. We don't necessarily need a mechanic for it.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I agree with this. Just like secret identities, sidekicks are an important trope that should be in the set, it just doesn't seem like something that's so central to the gameplay that it would require it's own mechanic.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
As for minions, I would treat them like wizards... like villain A might have 'tap 3 minions to draw a card' while villain B might say 'tap 3 minions to deal 3 damage to target player'.
Kinda like
Crookclaw Elder
Aphetto Grifter
Supreme Inquisitor
And of course the only villains that would have those mechanics would be the ones who need minions, so Gigantabrute works alone smashing everything in sight, but Dr. Caos might have a bunch of guys doing stuff for him.
www.theconnoisseurs.com
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
That would be very Simic so I dig that. Maybe a riff on evolve or level up, like 'Mutate: whenever X happens put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.' that being something like you draw a card, a non token creature comes into play, you gain life or a creature dies. Also maybe they all could have a power that triggers, be it something static (if it has 4 or more counters it gains trample) or triggered (if it has 4 or more counters, remove all countes and do X).
I would avoid sharing powers amongst creatures with counters since that detracts from individuality, which is a huge theme of super heroics.
www.theconnoisseurs.com
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I like the idea of powers activating when you reach a certain threshold (even if it's just a single +1/+1 counter, depending on the trigger). I also agree that even though we want these creatures to work together, sharing powers doesn't seem very super-hero-y.
An obvious and boring route would be to have an ally type trigger with mutants gaining counters for other mutants. But, as I said, that's pretty boring and too played out.
Evolve would be a nice one, though over on the creative side we're kind of leaning towards mutants being science-y as opposed to natural born, so that might lead to some confusing flavor. Then again, none of the simic creatures were natural either, and evolve is a mechanic that could totally fit into every color.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Maro said it was okay to have two returning mechanics on his tumblr (Theros had Devotion (chroma)and Scry) and as long as we make evolve and trap different enough from older sets it works.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Trusty Sidekick (Common)
2U
Creature - Human
1/1
T: Target creature you control gets +1/+1 and gains "When this creature deals combat damage this turn, draw a card."
Lots of sidekicks could make a powerful force.
I don't know if we're really going to be able to capture the thesis of x-men in this medium. Magic's better at representing broad themes (Fear, Growth, etc.) than the specific storytelling metaphors you're talking about. Not saying we shouldn't try as best we can to capture the source material, just that it may need to be less specific.
I'm not sure how many of these I want running around in limited making combat math hard, but I do like this design.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
On Morph/Transform: Neither really achieves what we want, I think we should just design something new.
On Mutants: I feel like the whole problem lies in us trying to make a an evolve mechanic, where I feel like this is not the way we should go about it. I personally think that since we are probably going to make Auras that function as superpowers, why not make it a mechanic related to being enchanted, like this:
Mutation-- As long as this creature is enchanted, effect
For Example:
Mutating Mutant 1UG
Creature -- Mutant Hero
Mutation -- As long as this creature is enchanted, you may pay (G/U)(G/U) during your upkeep. If you do, reveal the top five cards of your library. You may put an Aura revealed this way into your hand and put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
2/2
In addition, to cover how Auras play into powers changing over time, maybe we could bring back Aura Swap?
- A strong aura theme requires some form of "aura compensation". RoE had totem armor, Theros has bestow, to make auras viable, we'd most likely have to dedicate a mechanic to just making auras playable
- An aura theme puts more focus on the auras than the creatures. It all powers are auras, it means the creatures we make are more like empty vessels. That works fine on theros, but I don't think it works as well here in a genre where individualism is key.
- We already know we want an equipment theme, and having both auras and equipment mattering separately in the same set may prove too much.
- We're just coming out of Theros block which had an aura theme. That's not necessarily a reason on it's own not to do something, but this set really wants to feel different from theros. Super heroes are pretty different from greek heroes, so I don't think it's a good idea to tread on the same ground.
If there is going to be any kind of aura theme, I think it'd be rolled into the equipment theme. That way it would at least fit into the flavor of DIY heroes needing some outside force to achieve super status.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing