They do indeed. It kind of makes it trickier to go around with, actually. So far, the only actual enablers for Union are those two cards. I may make a few more in the future. The art is proving difficult but I've got a couple friends (Zyrakris in particular) that helps me search every now and then.
I'd be glad to take in card suggestions for generic cards or cycles if you have them.
Well... there may be some balancing involved but I like this idea of Enchantment production... It probably shouldn't be keyworded if it's just going to be in a cycle though. This could actually be played around with... hrmn...
im confused as to why the blue Channeler is strictly better than the green channeler
Looking at them plainly, they're actually both useless. The Green one, In fact, is more useful in the sense that it can prevent mana burn. But the actual use of these Channelers is to enhance the certain abilities that the color combos have. The Blue one is a mana filter than changes colored mana into colorless mana which strengthens runic and the Green one drains your mana so you can be tapped out without actually having to cast something.
First off, let me apologize if anything I mention here has been covered already. After the time spent looking over all of the decks and whatnot, I was intimidated by the number of replies. As such, my comments may be repetitive.
Awesome. Overall, the flavor, the concept, the use of color combinations and creature types, the ideals behind the different "factions"- it's all awesome. But I do have a few qualms.
So. I will start from the beginning. Runic is simply amazing. Very sound rules-wise, very interesting, not weak and not overpowered.
I love the inclusion of cards like Stone Bound Sentry- pretty much just bad, unless you play a certain type of deck, in which case they are just okay. It's very WotC-ish. They're always doing that, and it's good to have cards like that for common level to keep everything balanced.
Crystalline Wizard is also a very authentic-magic thing to do, making a card that isn't really good unless you're playing against that same expansion. These two types of cards are easy to accidentally exclude.
Also, Weathered Veteran is great- it gets Rune counters but, on its own, has no use for them. New players could use it well, because a 2/2 for 2 is never bad when you're starting out, but more experienced players will only find it useful in the right type of deck, where you can get more than what you paid for. Another excellent thing to include to make the set feel authentic.
I looked at the four Channeler cards before looking at the decks at all, and I must say that Syllabic Channeler had me genuinely perplexed. I was certain that the runic theme would be something triggering from activated abilities. I hadn't even considered that there really is an enormous difference between paying colorless mana and getting colorless mana from a source. Until I saw the colorless theme of the runelords, I didn't even think of the fact that what you put into this channeler is not at all what you get from it, though it seems that way at first. Once again, very well done. A common that is almost strictly useless (besides being a 1/1 for 1) outside of the theme, but which is incredibly valuable inside of it.
Since I started playing Magic I have been toying in my head with rules of my own, and one of the things I always, from my n00bly beginnings, thought would be awesome is the inclusion of cards that benefit from colorless mana, or artifacts that could be played using only colorless mana, or a colorless-exclusive mana symbol. This rule really channels the spirit of those ideas (Which I, of course, appreciate because I came up with them =P) into something creative, new, useful, playable, and, most impressive of all, authentic-feeling (and definitely better than what I would have come up with).
Finally, I would like to mention that I am impressed by your ability to come up with a mechanic that fits so well rules-wise and flavor-wise into the blue-white themes.
So, as is probably obvious, Runic is my favorite of the abilities for playability, power, balance, and overal solidity. I didn't really see anything wrong with this theme or rule. I will detail my feelings on the rest in separate posts, so as to keep this one from becoming any more hideously lengthy.
First of all, and probably most importantly (and probably something people have covered in the previous replies I failed to read over), is the fact that your deck description says that if a chaincast spell is broken it goes to your graveyard. The rules for chaincasting, contrarily, do not cause this to happen. As it now stands, if you don't pay the cost, you don't copy the spell and the card remains in your hand, revealed, ready for you to pay the chaincast cost during any other upkeep and begin the chain again. If not what you said in the deck description, it should at least un-reveal the card when you don't pay, so you have to start the chain again. I assume, however, that you simply forgot to put in the "If you don't discard this card from your hand" or whatever reminder text to break the chain properly, which is totally understandable. I just thought I should mention that, in case nobody else had (once again because I was too lazy to read over the replies).
The idea of chaincasting is amazing. It is very strong. I like how it makes (sometimes harsh) sacrifices to get the cards revealed, then somewhat pricey but overall-reasonable costs every turn so that you don't lose steam in late game, but you also don't just start the chain and let it win the game for you. You have to keep up with it, find ways to minimalize the drawback of the turn-by-turn costs and (assuming it is in fact meant to kill the spell when you break it) try not to let your chain break and go to waste.
Combining this ability with the theme of gaining power from being tapped out is good thinking. They are similar, yet also kind of opposite themes. One (tapout) works off of aggression (perhaps even recklessness, if you're willing to take mana burn to keep your bonuses going) in early game, while the other (chaincast) works off of forcing use out of all of your mana, never letting any go to waste, even if the effect you are paying for is expensive. It's the perfect combination for an aggressive deck. I just don't even know what to say about it. It's great.
Flavor-wise, I love the idea of reckless, perhaps, but not stupid RG. When Ravnica first came out I was immediately excited to see what the RG guild would be, expecting warrior-wizards using both the intense combative and magical aggression of red and the empowering magics of green to overwhelm all who opposed them. When we got the Gruul, we got "Me smash, you die." The chaincasters feel exactly like what I wanted out of a RG faction. It has the physical aggression, the cheap, early-game creatures to hack away at your opponent, and it has the magical aggression, the spells that crash relentlessly on your opponent, continually empowering you and deteriorating them.
One minor rules technicality is Failing Skies- I don't think damage can be a cost. I think it should have "RG: Failing Skies deals 2 damage to each creature you control. Reveal Failing Skies from your hand." to be correct.
I really like how none of the Chaincast spells are very good- or very bad- if you just play them. They're moderately playable, at least enough so that if you don't have the mana to chain them you can still make use of them in a pinch, but if you have the resources to chain them for several turns they are seriously frightening. It once again shows great balance of usefulness. I fear that if most people were to make a MTG expansion of their own it'd be all (Akroma's Sliver, 5 mana, Artifact Creature- Sliver God, Affinity for artifacts, 20/15, Trample, Flying, Fear, Haste, Double Strike, Creatures you ctonrol get +10/+10, Creatures your opponents control get -10/-10 and 0: Regenerate.) You have shown remarkable skill in balancing these cards and the expansion as a whole. Not weak, not too strong, commons are often useful but rarely going to be gamewinners, rares are undeniably powerful (No Mudholes or One With Nothing here) but never too powerful on their own (Akroma) or in the expansion (Arcbound Ravager).
I think that's all I have to say on Channeled Fury.
Next.
First of all, I have to admit, I don't like the two forms of Chaos. Both are great, innovative, new effects, but I don't like how different it is from creatures to spells. Obviously you couldn't do the same thing with both, because of the obvious differences in the two types of cards, but they don't really feel to me like two variations of the same ability. They seem entirely separate.
But I think what you are thinking just hit me: You are "giving up" the card (Discard or sacrifice) in order to 1) Get its effect, and 2) Give other cards the opportunity to have the same effect (discarding cards to copy the spell or sacrificing more creatures to copy the ability).
It would be easy to make a spell-discard effect and a creature-sacrifice effect and have different names, but that would make them seem like separate abilities from separate factions. I can see why you did it the way you did it, but it's a pretty hard keyword to learn since it does two things that are so different. (That is, different in rules, in exactly what you do with the Chaos ability, not different in general feel. I get that part now.)
Maybe it's not even difficult. I am really tired right now, so it could be more to do with that than any fault of yours. Sorry.
Emblem of Psychosis = Genius. It can get away with being only 2 mana, because really, who WANTS to discard a card when they lose a creature? But in this deck it seems (or rather, IS) incredibly powerful. Then I love the flavor text, because it describes exactly what the card allows you to do, but relating it to the "real" world flavor of why it is that way. In this, it is better than most flavor texts in official MTG.
Copper Knight = Also genius. It's awesome that you made a card to fit in a loose cycle from the real game, and it's also awesome that it's in a precon where it doesn't necessarily fit the theme (Not that this is the first such card I've noticed of yours, it's just the first I'm mentioning.) because every precon has that sort of thing. They would never sell a deck that is all strictly to the theme, every card playing an exact role. That would be too powerful for new players. Instead, they fill some of the slots with general-purpose cards. Not good, not bad, and not a necessary piece in the machinery of the deck, but certainly useful in many situations. And even moreso, he's edging on actually being bad for the deck, since he's RR in a dual color deck. In addition to creating great balance and rules for this expansion, you really know how to build precons to be true to Magic.
I don't have all that much to say about Voice of Unity. It's a very interesting mechanic, and would be fun to build around.
The most interesting part, I think, is the use of enchantment and land tokens. That's just awesome. It gives me a sort of Future Sight feel, in that it's not breaking any rules but it's using things the game has never used before, stretching the boundaries if you will.
(By the way, on Utopia's Harp's third effect it should say "Spirit creature token," rather than just "Spirit token.")
Harmony is very fun because of how it doesn't really do anything for you unless you're playing a Unity deck, but in such a deck it can be great. It's similar to Emblem of Psychosis in that way.
Mystic Wood is also great: It's good for tweaking numbers for Unity, but isn't in and of itself a bad card, and certainly isn't limited to the purposes of the Unity strategy.
(Another quick rules comment, I think Spiritual Healer's ability needs to say something like "if it is a creature," because of the fact that normal lands/enchantments can't take damage. I know this is nitpicky but it's the kind of thing that WotC would be sure to catch.)
Also, I just for the first time looked at your nonbasic lands. I definitely like the Reading the Runes ones, because of how they fit in the regular game. Most of the time they're barely better than, or perhaps not even as good as basic lands, but in a Runic deck they're more powerful. But even then that depends on the situation. You still need the availability of colors of mana, but you benefit from the availability of strictly colorless mana as well.
The Channeled Fury nonbasics are very nice because they fit with the deck's feel of balancing the temporary with the long-term in order to play aggressively but not run yourself out of resources. Very nice.
I definitely love the Chaos Theory lands. Very nice, very cool. I like the ability to get general mana from it if necessary, but at the cost of life- very black/red mentality. Also, I like things that give bonus mana but restrict its spending. Also, now I fully approve of both abilities being called Chaos, since there is, in fact, an ability that affects both types of Chaos.
The Voice of Unity ones are my favorites though. First of all, I love how they have different effects, besides just color, and how those effects are useful in tweaking numbers to achieve Unity. I really like how they allow you to color-fix in a pinch, though, even if it's not the most efficient way to do so.
I must once again tell you that your ability to balance cards individually (cost to effect) and in the set (figuring in rarity, other cards, colors, etc.) without making it too weak, too strong, or boring.
Unless you are going for a strict Ravnica type of feel in which each ability is exclusive to one group, it would be interesting to see what you could do with these abilities in small doses in the other colors.
Right now I feel like I desperately need to buy packs upon packs of this expansion, especially a Fat Pack so I can get the book as well, and learn the world's story. You've cursed me. I will never be satisfied until you sell fake cards or printouts for proxies. Your ideas and rules are so new and refreshing. This may be my favorite set at the moment, and it doesn't even exist. =(
Anyway, sorry I have so many words. I try to restrain them, but there are just too many of them.
Well, first off, thanks for visiting my set. I'm glad that I actually got to entertain someone with all this work. Secondly, thanks for using up your first four posts in this thread. (Welcome to the forums.) It's always great to know. The mistakes have been duly noted. (Especially the chaincast one. I want either discard or unreveal. It's hard to do it because of lack of space.)
Let's hope WotC pays attention to these boards and drops by for a 'hi', eh? I'd give up playing Magic just to work in a design team.
You're quite the talker. Have you seen my Misc. section? I'll be updating that part soon, to talk about why I made Aethersplash.
Okay! Now that I'm caught up on all of the other replies...
Yes, I saw Æthersplash. The Misc. section was actually, I believe, the first I looked at.
I like Æthersplash because it reminds me of Scourge mechanics and, despite the fact that Scourge was a pretty bad set, I had a lot of fun with it.
I would like to know if there are any subthemes you plan on using. Obviously the color combo rules are the major theme, but there are always other themes. For example, while Ravnica had the guild rules, it also had its pretty big Aura theme, and a bit of a token (specifically saproling) type of theme.
I must warn you, in case I am welcome to stick around long enough that I start suggesting cards, that I have a serious love for split cards and non-mana costs, so be prepared for a lot of those from me. If you think of any minor or major themes besides your rules, let me know, so I can start making some stuff up.
Also, I'm sure I have lots of ideas floating around that could be somehow applied to your sets.
I already came up with one idea for an enemy color combo ability (B/W mechanic was Thaumaturgy) but I have ideas for the other enemy color combos. Tell me what you think of them.
Bounce (R/U): When you play this card, if it has a card type that matches a card type you control, you may return that permanent to your hand
Zeal (R/W): When a creature you control with Zeal attacks, it gets ETC until end of turn. Comes in 3 versions.
Red creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the number of red creatures you control White creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +0/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of white creatures you control Red/White multicolored creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of Red/White multicolored creatures you control
Create (U/G): When a creature or enchantment with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put ETC into play. Comes in 2 versions.
Creature with Create: If a creature with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put X creature tokens of itself into play, where X equals its converted mana cost (When the creature tokens leave play, the effect doesn't happen again) Enchantment with Create: If a enchantment with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put a enchantment token of itself into play (When the enchantment token leaves play, the effect doesn't happen again)
Spawn (B/G): If a permanent with Spawn goes to the graveyard from play, put all cards in your hand into play that share a card type with the card that went into the graveyard
Thaumaturgy, as it now stands, could never work. It would give you too much, too easily, for one thing. Spells should very rarely be mana-free. It's dangerous.
Also, it needs a way to prevent out-of-color decks from running these cards without worrying about mana colors.
The idea, however, is great. Very B/W, and very fun, but it needs to be limited so that it's not broken from birth. Here's one way to go (And forgive my lack of game-appropriate wording on the reminder text. Also, please forgive my obsession with including flavor text on nonexistent cards):
Rot-wing Bleeder 3BB
Creature- Vampire Imp
Flying
Thaumaturgy (As you play Rot-wing Bleeder you may pay any amount of life. Rot-wing Bleeder's cost is reduced by 1 for each point of life paid this way.) An offering of blood will buy the loyalty of even the most simple-minded of vampires.
3/2
That way spells with Thaumaturgy are never free. This card would be straight-up bad if you pay no life for it, decent if you pay one or two life for it, and would give you a significant edge if you paid all three.
Therefore, you're being rewarded for paying life by getting the card at a lower cost than its P/T and abilities would normally call for, but you can't just drop a gamewinner on turn one either. It accelerates the game, but doesn't break it.
Another way could be this:
Bloodhungry Priest 1W
Creature- Vampire Cleric
Thaumaturgy 4 (If you control a Plains, you may pay four life rather than pay Bloodhungry Priest's mana cost) B, Sacrifice Bloodhungry Priest: You gain 2 life. He preys behind stained glass.
1/1
Yes I did steal the flavor text from Billy Talent's song Devil in a Midnight Mass. Why do you ask?
This has the Masques Block-esque limitation of needing that color's land so that you can't drop something of cost 1WWBBB in a mono red deck, or even a deck with no lands at all, or something ridiculous like that. You may note that the Thaumaturgy cost is specific to the card, not the cost. This way, you can set each card's life payment at something that could be uncomfortably high for the card, thus keeping the cards in check. As I've said probably seven times in this post, mana-free cards are dangerous, so you need the other costs to be harsh.
A third way would be:
Faithless Healer 3WB
Creature-Human Cleric
Thaumaturgy (As you play Faithless Healer, for B in its mana cost you may instead pay 3 life if you control a swamp. For each W in its mana cost you may instead have each opponent gain 3 life if you control a plains.)
Tap: Prevent the next three damage that would be dealt to target creature this turn. You lose life equal to the damage prevented this way. "One man's gain is another man's suffering. Such is the way of the world."
3/3
I personally don't like this one, but it's just another suggestion. Once again it has the color-land limitation so that you can't play it in just any deck. With this you could also have it be "Thaumaturgy #" and # is the amound paid/gained. I am about certain that my wording on the reminder text is totally wrong, but I don't know how else to do it. With any luck, this mechanic won't be used and I won't have to worry about it. =P
With the original design, the game is just insane. Say you've got four copies of a card (For this example we'll say it's Lurking Blahblahblah, a 3/2 creature for 2WB with the original concept of Thaumaturgy) in hand. Turn one you play Hickory Woodlot, which comes into play tapped, then drop all four copies of Lurking Blahblahblah. Now you're at 4 life, your opponent is at 20, and you have four 3/2s. Even though this card's mana cost is too high already, you have four creatures that are more than big enough to block whatever 1-drops your opponent can play.
Next turn you lay a mountain. You play Nourish to heal for six then Lightning Bolt whatever your opponent played last turn. He has no blockers so you attack with all four Lurking Blahblahblah's. You are at ten life, your opponent is at eight. It's your turn two, the third turn of the game, and you have 4 3/2s, more life than your opponent, and all your opponent has is a land, and to top it all off, you're not even playing either of Thaumaturgy's colors.
Not to say that I don't like it. I'd love to play mono-blue counter/bounce with tons of Thaumaturgy cards and no plains or swamps, but, you know, that's not what the game's about.
And I'm not saying that any of my suggestions are the right way to go, or even good. They're just examples of how to keep Thaumaturgy in line. Good enough to play (aside from, maybe, the third example), but not so good that it's the only thing anyone plays.
Edit: I would also like to mention, since I'm giving all sorts of unnecessary opinions, that I think my first example for Thaumaturgy seems to be the most interesting, most stable, and most fun.
Bounce is interesting. It would need some serious tweaking, however. I'm not even gonna get into that, though, because I'm pretty sure he's already decided on UR's mechanic and that's gonna be Æthersplash. I don't know how permanent it is, and I don't know if it's really going to be a purely UR mechanic, but it's on a UR card so I suppose it must be. *shrug*
On Zeal, I think that, for one thing, it'd be too hard to pick up on with the two (or three, depending on how you look at it) varieties. Also, to be honest, I think that it would be too good. Think of a deck with all Red creatures with Zeal. You'd deal way too much damage.
For one thing, I think Zeal should be one mechanic. It should have both the power and the toughness boosters in one. (When ~ attacks, it gets +X/+Y where X is the number of attacking red creatures and Y is the number of attacking white creatures.) Also note that I limited it to attacking creatures, so it's not quite as powerful unless you go all-out aggressive attacking. Even so it could be too powerful. It is, however, a good idea for W/R's militant nature. If Weirdling likes the idea, I'd definitely be interested in helping to create and balance this mechanic.
Create. Create feels like it would be way too powerful, or way too boring. One way (reasonably priced like a 4/4 for 4) is something like the Penumbra cards, but insane because it creates so many copies (4 4/4s is scary). Another (very highly priced like a 1/1 for 6) is more like the Onslaught block's Symbiotic cards, but boring because it is useless until it triggers (A single 1/1 sucks, then you suddenly get 6 1/1s when it dies). Another (underpriced, like a 3/3 for 2) is too powerful while it's out, then becomes even more so when it dies (It's too cheap at 2 mana, then it dies and you get two more for free). This would make it seem that you should go with minor overpricing (like a 3/3 for 5) but even then that gets ridiculous if it dies. This just seems either too crazy or too slow.
Perhaps it would be good if it were more like the Enchantment version. Just one copy. But even then that's not really interesting. I don't get excited by the thought of self-recycling cards. Not the way I do about rune counters, or spells that you cast every turn, or paying life to cheapen spells. Also, Weirdling said somewhere that he planned on UG being largely about deck-thinning, and this ability doesn't really fit with that theme.
This could either be done with a rule that is mostly just based around card drawing and land searching, or something entirely new. I was thinking something like this:
Procession (The name would probably have to go, but this is what comes to mind): (When ~ comes into play, search your library for a card named ~ and remove it from the game, then shuffle your library. If you do, until end of turn you may play that card as if it were in your hand.)
For non-permanents it would be (Search your library for a card named ~ and remove it from the game, then shuffle your library. If you do, until end of turn you may play that card as if it were in your hand.)
Example:
Teeming Growth 1G
Enchantment- Aura
Enchant land
When enchanted land is tapped for mana, its controller adds U to his or her mana pool.
Procession (When Teeming Growth comes into play, search your library for a card named Teeming Growth and remove it from the game, then shuffle your library. If you do, until end of turn you may play that card as though it were in your hand.)
The idea is that when you play the card, you can search for another, giving you card advantage and getting cards out of your deck so you're more likely to draw other cards. The downsides are 1) too high a mana cost for the card's effect, so that it's not too powerful and 2) if you don't play the card you searched for it's just gone from your deck. This could still be good to thin your deck, but also you are losing that card.
The obvious problem with this mechanic, besides being relatively uninteresting, uninnovative, and feeling more G than UG (Seriously, this was more or less already done with Nesting Wurm and Skyshroud Sentinel, both of which are mono-green), is that MTG rules say that if you are searching your library for a card with specific traits (in this case, the name) then you don't have to find something. This means that you never really run the risk of your cards being removed from the game without you getting use of them. If you don't have the mana you just don't find the card when you search. =/ In any case, I don't really like this mechanic, it was just an example to convey to you the idea of what I think Weirdling is looking for in the UG mechanic.
Spawn, also, feels overpowered. Perhaps Spawn (When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, until end of turn you may play cards named ~ without paying their mana costs.) I don't like the idea of Spawn giving you all cards that share a permanent type. That seems too strong.
To be honest, as a matter of opinion, I don't really even think that Spawn works that well with a BG theme. It feels more UG, or just G to me. But my opinion really isn't important here =)
I already came up with one idea for an enemy color combo ability (B/W mechanic was Thaumaturgy) but I have ideas for the other enemy color combos. Tell me what you think of them.
Bounce (R/U): When you play this card, if it has a card type that matches a card type you control, you may return that permanent to your hand
Zeal (R/W): When a creature you control with Zeal attacks, it gets ETC until end of turn. Comes in 3 versions.
Red creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the number of red creatures you control White creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +0/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of white creatures you control Red/White multicolored creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of Red/White multicolored creatures you control
Create (U/G): When a creature or enchantment with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put ETC into play. Comes in 2 versions.
Creature with Create: If a creature with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put X creature tokens of itself into play, where X equals its converted mana cost (When the creature tokens leave play, the effect doesn't happen again) Enchantment with Create: If a enchantment with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put a enchantment token of itself into play (When the enchantment token leaves play, the effect doesn't happen again)
Spawn (B/G): If a permanent with Spawn goes to the graveyard from play, put all cards in your hand into play that share a card type with the card that went into the graveyard
I'd like replies as soon as possible.
First of all, thanks guys for contributing heavily to this thread. You guys have been constantly posting and tossing up ideas and suggestions that can be used to better this set as a whole. It's an even greater fact that you guys are 'new' posters and have started your posts (and kept your posts within. O.o) this thread. I'm flattered, really.
Now for the Ideas:
My set is based on Certain Magic arts that are practiced. The Use of Runology, Chaincasting (Or Channeling... Darn you, Kamigawa), Chaos and Formshifting are kinds of Magic that were practiced at one point in lore. So Ideally, Zeal kind of doesn't mesh with the ideals in abilties of this set. (It also feels like Radiance and Frenzy, for some reason.)
Bounce is actually another word for the familiar keyword, Gating. I'm surprised that Magic hasn't keyworded this one yet. (Maybe because it mentally comes out as a drawback. And people don't like drawbacks [Defender].) Gating is having a creature come into play whereas another creature of it's color returns to your hand as an additional cost.
Create may actually work in B/G's belief in the life/death cycle. I may be tweaking that in the future but the fact is, I'm still currently working on this current set. Heck, I'm not even 50% done. The art has been overkill for me. But currently, I think I'm doing fine. The Thaumaturgy tweaks sound good and it'll come in useful in the future set. Thanks again guys. Time to update the front page.
Heh. I usually just float around forums like this but never post, but your set was too intriguing to pass up, so I pretty much had to go register so that I could help out with it. In fact, it'll probably be the only thread in which I post, unless by some miracle some of the other people in the Custom Sets forums can come up with something acceptable. Anyone can make a custom Magic set. Not very many can make one that is balanced and innovative and that feels like Magic.
Good call on Zeal, Weirdling. I hadn't even considered the fact that it's not really anything like a long-unused magic. It's just sort of strength from inspiration, which doesn't fit the theme at all.
Also a good call on Bounce. The similarity between it and Gating hadn't crossed my mind.
Weirdling, if you wish, feel free to post here (or email me at [EMAIL="OutliveYourself@yahoo.com"]OutliveYourself@yahoo.com[/EMAIL]) what your general ideas are for mechanics you haven't thought of yet. I'd be happy to help, but I need whatever ideas you have so far, so I have something to build on. What themes, if any, you plan on for each color, major themes (like the faction mechanics) or even just general ideas and subthemes (like the chaincasters' tapout theme).
I'm having tons of fun just thinking about this set, and I think that with some help I might be able to come up with some good ideas for you, if you want me to. Just let me know.
I suddenly had an idea. It needs some hardcore tweaking to make it playable, to make it interesting, and to make sure it's not too powerful because it does deal with free spells, and it may just not be good or interesting, but it's worth a shot. Also, I'd just like to say that Conjure is a tentative name because I can't think of anything else at the moment.
Here we go:
Invocation of Tides 1G
Sorcery
Search your library for an Island card and put it into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Conjure UUGG(If you have UUGG in your mana pool, you may play Invocation of Tides without paying its mana cost.)
There are a lot of things I'm not sure about here. For one thing, I don't know if it would be any good at all, or if it would be too good. I'd have to playtest it, but until Monday I'm on vacation and I didn't bring any cards with me, so that would have to wait until next week.
The problems that arise are:
I wanted to make the Conjure "cost" 2UG, but I think that would actually require specifically-colorless mana, like what you get from Syllabic Channeler, not like the kind of colorless that would be in a cost.
I really don't know what to think about this. One one hand, it could be insane. Turn four, if you have two islands and two forests, you can tap out, play Invocation of Tides for free, then lay another spell costing four. This could be incredibly good. On the other hand, if you don't have the exact balance of colors, you can't Conjure it at all, which makes it, obviously, pretty weak. This is why I wanted some of the Conjure requirement to not be color-specific, but I don't know how that could be done with the nature of the spell. I could do:
Invocation of Tides 1G
Sorcery
Search your library for an Island card and put it into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Conjure 2UG(If you have UG and at least two more mana in your mana pool, you may play Invocation of Tides without paying its mana cost.)
I think that would work, but how does the wording sound? I don't know if it sounds too unofficial. If anyone could give me some feedback on how this sounds, on whether it's even a good idea, on how under/over/perfectly-powered it is, whether it is inherently broken, how the rules wording is, how to fix it... Any opinions on this mechanic would be great. Especially from Weirdling, since, you know, it's his set and all
And then, of course, this wouldn't have to be UG, but that's what comes to mind, since it's kind of built around acceleration (green) and doing funky things with your spells (blue).
It would fit in with the cycle, because on its own, it seems nearly worthless, except for avoiding mana burn if you somehow end up with too much mana in your pool. However, it compliments Conjure in a way very similar to how your other Channelers compliment their mechanic:
This way (using Invocation of Tides as an example), you could tap two islands and two forests and conjure a free Invocation of Tides, then pay all of the mana to the Infusing Channeler to untap your lands.
This way, if you only had other spells adding up to a cost of one, or two, or three, then you could still cast them without receivin mana burn. Or you could just save the mana in case you need to use it during your opponent's turn.
The ability is balanced by the fact that the Conjure requirement is high for what you get. Yes, you do get a free spell, which is usually dangerous, but also you have to have an amount of mana available to you that is higher than what you would have when you would usually cast that spell. Also, it's only worth Conjuring if you already have another use for that mana. This way, you can't get anything at an earlier turn than what you normally would, but you can get out more things per turn.
Once again, it's just an idea. It may be too powerful, too weak, too easily breakable, or just not interesting, but it's something to get people thinking at least.
So if I can see anywhere this mechanic is going to be broken, it will be in having multiple copies of Conjure cards, or just several diffreent Conjure cards in hand.
Okay, I think I have a revision to Zeal. Tell me what you guys think.
When a creature you control with Zeal attacks, it gets ETC until end of turn. Comes in 3 versions.
Red creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the number of attacking mono-red creatures you control White creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +0/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of attacking mono-white creatures you control Red/White multicolored creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of attacking Red/White multicolored creatures you control
Outlive, I added you on YM. I don't know if you go online or are just invisible to everyone. Thanks for all your help everyone but as of now, I'm still concerned with the development of this particular set before moving on to the next ones. Infusing may have a problem due to it using GandU mana.
Planar, I'm still lost about Zeal because it doesn't exactly seem 'magical' meaning spell or casting.
P.S.
Update again, first page as usual. It's GW weekend everyone!
Quick question. I'm going to put up text-versions of the cards now. Would you like them where the decks are or in their own section?
Agreed. Wording errors changed. Here is the proper phrasing:
GW: Choose either land or enchantment. Alaphia, Formshifter becomes the chosen type and isn’t a creature until end of turn. Play this ability only once per turn.
Weirdling, Zeal represents the fanaticism of clerics. Their drive to promote their deity comes in the form of additional power in their attack or defense, or in some cases, both. In addition to Zeal being an attacking mechanic, there could be a selection of cards that depend on the amount of Zeal cards in play for example:
Life to the Faithful (Uncommon) Sorcery
2WW
You gain 1 life for each mono-white creature card you control with Zeal
Flame to the Heretics (Uncommon)
Sorcery
2RR
You deal 1 damage to target creature or player equal to the number of mono-red creature cards you control with Zeal
Tala, Angel of Zeal(Rare)
Legendary Creature - Angel
4RRWW
*/*
Flying, Vigilance, Haste
Tala's attack & defense is equal to the number of creature cards you control with Zeal
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'd be glad to take in card suggestions for generic cards or cycles if you have them.
Forgotten Arts
Forgotten Arts
Looking at them plainly, they're actually both useless. The Green one, In fact, is more useful in the sense that it can prevent mana burn. But the actual use of these Channelers is to enhance the certain abilities that the color combos have. The Blue one is a mana filter than changes colored mana into colorless mana which strengthens runic and the Green one drains your mana so you can be tapped out without actually having to cast something.
Forgotten Arts
i get it
Awesome. Overall, the flavor, the concept, the use of color combinations and creature types, the ideals behind the different "factions"- it's all awesome. But I do have a few qualms.
So. I will start from the beginning. Runic is simply amazing. Very sound rules-wise, very interesting, not weak and not overpowered.
I love the inclusion of cards like Stone Bound Sentry- pretty much just bad, unless you play a certain type of deck, in which case they are just okay. It's very WotC-ish. They're always doing that, and it's good to have cards like that for common level to keep everything balanced.
Crystalline Wizard is also a very authentic-magic thing to do, making a card that isn't really good unless you're playing against that same expansion. These two types of cards are easy to accidentally exclude.
Also, Weathered Veteran is great- it gets Rune counters but, on its own, has no use for them. New players could use it well, because a 2/2 for 2 is never bad when you're starting out, but more experienced players will only find it useful in the right type of deck, where you can get more than what you paid for. Another excellent thing to include to make the set feel authentic.
I looked at the four Channeler cards before looking at the decks at all, and I must say that Syllabic Channeler had me genuinely perplexed. I was certain that the runic theme would be something triggering from activated abilities. I hadn't even considered that there really is an enormous difference between paying colorless mana and getting colorless mana from a source. Until I saw the colorless theme of the runelords, I didn't even think of the fact that what you put into this channeler is not at all what you get from it, though it seems that way at first. Once again, very well done. A common that is almost strictly useless (besides being a 1/1 for 1) outside of the theme, but which is incredibly valuable inside of it.
Since I started playing Magic I have been toying in my head with rules of my own, and one of the things I always, from my n00bly beginnings, thought would be awesome is the inclusion of cards that benefit from colorless mana, or artifacts that could be played using only colorless mana, or a colorless-exclusive mana symbol. This rule really channels the spirit of those ideas (Which I, of course, appreciate because I came up with them =P) into something creative, new, useful, playable, and, most impressive of all, authentic-feeling (and definitely better than what I would have come up with).
Finally, I would like to mention that I am impressed by your ability to come up with a mechanic that fits so well rules-wise and flavor-wise into the blue-white themes.
So, as is probably obvious, Runic is my favorite of the abilities for playability, power, balance, and overal solidity. I didn't really see anything wrong with this theme or rule. I will detail my feelings on the rest in separate posts, so as to keep this one from becoming any more hideously lengthy.
First of all, and probably most importantly (and probably something people have covered in the previous replies I failed to read over), is the fact that your deck description says that if a chaincast spell is broken it goes to your graveyard. The rules for chaincasting, contrarily, do not cause this to happen. As it now stands, if you don't pay the cost, you don't copy the spell and the card remains in your hand, revealed, ready for you to pay the chaincast cost during any other upkeep and begin the chain again. If not what you said in the deck description, it should at least un-reveal the card when you don't pay, so you have to start the chain again. I assume, however, that you simply forgot to put in the "If you don't discard this card from your hand" or whatever reminder text to break the chain properly, which is totally understandable. I just thought I should mention that, in case nobody else had (once again because I was too lazy to read over the replies).
The idea of chaincasting is amazing. It is very strong. I like how it makes (sometimes harsh) sacrifices to get the cards revealed, then somewhat pricey but overall-reasonable costs every turn so that you don't lose steam in late game, but you also don't just start the chain and let it win the game for you. You have to keep up with it, find ways to minimalize the drawback of the turn-by-turn costs and (assuming it is in fact meant to kill the spell when you break it) try not to let your chain break and go to waste.
Combining this ability with the theme of gaining power from being tapped out is good thinking. They are similar, yet also kind of opposite themes. One (tapout) works off of aggression (perhaps even recklessness, if you're willing to take mana burn to keep your bonuses going) in early game, while the other (chaincast) works off of forcing use out of all of your mana, never letting any go to waste, even if the effect you are paying for is expensive. It's the perfect combination for an aggressive deck. I just don't even know what to say about it. It's great.
Flavor-wise, I love the idea of reckless, perhaps, but not stupid RG. When Ravnica first came out I was immediately excited to see what the RG guild would be, expecting warrior-wizards using both the intense combative and magical aggression of red and the empowering magics of green to overwhelm all who opposed them. When we got the Gruul, we got "Me smash, you die." The chaincasters feel exactly like what I wanted out of a RG faction. It has the physical aggression, the cheap, early-game creatures to hack away at your opponent, and it has the magical aggression, the spells that crash relentlessly on your opponent, continually empowering you and deteriorating them.
One minor rules technicality is Failing Skies- I don't think damage can be a cost. I think it should have "RG: Failing Skies deals 2 damage to each creature you control. Reveal Failing Skies from your hand." to be correct.
I really like how none of the Chaincast spells are very good- or very bad- if you just play them. They're moderately playable, at least enough so that if you don't have the mana to chain them you can still make use of them in a pinch, but if you have the resources to chain them for several turns they are seriously frightening. It once again shows great balance of usefulness. I fear that if most people were to make a MTG expansion of their own it'd be all (Akroma's Sliver, 5 mana, Artifact Creature- Sliver God, Affinity for artifacts, 20/15, Trample, Flying, Fear, Haste, Double Strike, Creatures you ctonrol get +10/+10, Creatures your opponents control get -10/-10 and 0: Regenerate.) You have shown remarkable skill in balancing these cards and the expansion as a whole. Not weak, not too strong, commons are often useful but rarely going to be gamewinners, rares are undeniably powerful (No Mudholes or One With Nothing here) but never too powerful on their own (Akroma) or in the expansion (Arcbound Ravager).
I think that's all I have to say on Channeled Fury.
Next.
First of all, I have to admit, I don't like the two forms of Chaos. Both are great, innovative, new effects, but I don't like how different it is from creatures to spells. Obviously you couldn't do the same thing with both, because of the obvious differences in the two types of cards, but they don't really feel to me like two variations of the same ability. They seem entirely separate.
But I think what you are thinking just hit me: You are "giving up" the card (Discard or sacrifice) in order to 1) Get its effect, and 2) Give other cards the opportunity to have the same effect (discarding cards to copy the spell or sacrificing more creatures to copy the ability).
It would be easy to make a spell-discard effect and a creature-sacrifice effect and have different names, but that would make them seem like separate abilities from separate factions. I can see why you did it the way you did it, but it's a pretty hard keyword to learn since it does two things that are so different. (That is, different in rules, in exactly what you do with the Chaos ability, not different in general feel. I get that part now.)
Maybe it's not even difficult. I am really tired right now, so it could be more to do with that than any fault of yours. Sorry.
Emblem of Psychosis = Genius. It can get away with being only 2 mana, because really, who WANTS to discard a card when they lose a creature? But in this deck it seems (or rather, IS) incredibly powerful. Then I love the flavor text, because it describes exactly what the card allows you to do, but relating it to the "real" world flavor of why it is that way. In this, it is better than most flavor texts in official MTG.
Copper Knight = Also genius. It's awesome that you made a card to fit in a loose cycle from the real game, and it's also awesome that it's in a precon where it doesn't necessarily fit the theme (Not that this is the first such card I've noticed of yours, it's just the first I'm mentioning.) because every precon has that sort of thing. They would never sell a deck that is all strictly to the theme, every card playing an exact role. That would be too powerful for new players. Instead, they fill some of the slots with general-purpose cards. Not good, not bad, and not a necessary piece in the machinery of the deck, but certainly useful in many situations. And even moreso, he's edging on actually being bad for the deck, since he's RR in a dual color deck. In addition to creating great balance and rules for this expansion, you really know how to build precons to be true to Magic.
The most interesting part, I think, is the use of enchantment and land tokens. That's just awesome. It gives me a sort of Future Sight feel, in that it's not breaking any rules but it's using things the game has never used before, stretching the boundaries if you will.
(By the way, on Utopia's Harp's third effect it should say "Spirit creature token," rather than just "Spirit token.")
Harmony is very fun because of how it doesn't really do anything for you unless you're playing a Unity deck, but in such a deck it can be great. It's similar to Emblem of Psychosis in that way.
Mystic Wood is also great: It's good for tweaking numbers for Unity, but isn't in and of itself a bad card, and certainly isn't limited to the purposes of the Unity strategy.
(Another quick rules comment, I think Spiritual Healer's ability needs to say something like "if it is a creature," because of the fact that normal lands/enchantments can't take damage. I know this is nitpicky but it's the kind of thing that WotC would be sure to catch.)
Also, I just for the first time looked at your nonbasic lands. I definitely like the Reading the Runes ones, because of how they fit in the regular game. Most of the time they're barely better than, or perhaps not even as good as basic lands, but in a Runic deck they're more powerful. But even then that depends on the situation. You still need the availability of colors of mana, but you benefit from the availability of strictly colorless mana as well.
The Channeled Fury nonbasics are very nice because they fit with the deck's feel of balancing the temporary with the long-term in order to play aggressively but not run yourself out of resources. Very nice.
I definitely love the Chaos Theory lands. Very nice, very cool. I like the ability to get general mana from it if necessary, but at the cost of life- very black/red mentality. Also, I like things that give bonus mana but restrict its spending. Also, now I fully approve of both abilities being called Chaos, since there is, in fact, an ability that affects both types of Chaos.
The Voice of Unity ones are my favorites though. First of all, I love how they have different effects, besides just color, and how those effects are useful in tweaking numbers to achieve Unity. I really like how they allow you to color-fix in a pinch, though, even if it's not the most efficient way to do so.
I must once again tell you that your ability to balance cards individually (cost to effect) and in the set (figuring in rarity, other cards, colors, etc.) without making it too weak, too strong, or boring.
Unless you are going for a strict Ravnica type of feel in which each ability is exclusive to one group, it would be interesting to see what you could do with these abilities in small doses in the other colors.
Right now I feel like I desperately need to buy packs upon packs of this expansion, especially a Fat Pack so I can get the book as well, and learn the world's story. You've cursed me. I will never be satisfied until you sell fake cards or printouts for proxies. Your ideas and rules are so new and refreshing. This may be my favorite set at the moment, and it doesn't even exist. =(
Anyway, sorry I have so many words. I try to restrain them, but there are just too many of them.
Let's hope WotC pays attention to these boards and drops by for a 'hi', eh? I'd give up playing Magic just to work in a design team.
You're quite the talker. Have you seen my Misc. section? I'll be updating that part soon, to talk about why I made Aethersplash.
Forgotten Arts
Yes, I saw Æthersplash. The Misc. section was actually, I believe, the first I looked at.
I like Æthersplash because it reminds me of Scourge mechanics and, despite the fact that Scourge was a pretty bad set, I had a lot of fun with it.
I would like to know if there are any subthemes you plan on using. Obviously the color combo rules are the major theme, but there are always other themes. For example, while Ravnica had the guild rules, it also had its pretty big Aura theme, and a bit of a token (specifically saproling) type of theme.
I must warn you, in case I am welcome to stick around long enough that I start suggesting cards, that I have a serious love for split cards and non-mana costs, so be prepared for a lot of those from me. If you think of any minor or major themes besides your rules, let me know, so I can start making some stuff up.
Also, I'm sure I have lots of ideas floating around that could be somehow applied to your sets.
Bounce (R/U): When you play this card, if it has a card type that matches a card type you control, you may return that permanent to your hand
Zeal (R/W): When a creature you control with Zeal attacks, it gets ETC until end of turn. Comes in 3 versions.
Red creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the number of red creatures you control
White creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +0/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of white creatures you control
Red/White multicolored creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of Red/White multicolored creatures you control
Create (U/G): When a creature or enchantment with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put ETC into play. Comes in 2 versions.
Creature with Create: If a creature with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put X creature tokens of itself into play, where X equals its converted mana cost (When the creature tokens leave play, the effect doesn't happen again)
Enchantment with Create: If a enchantment with Create goes to the graveyard from play, put a enchantment token of itself into play (When the enchantment token leaves play, the effect doesn't happen again)
Spawn (B/G): If a permanent with Spawn goes to the graveyard from play, put all cards in your hand into play that share a card type with the card that went into the graveyard
I'd like replies as soon as possible.
Thaumaturgy, as it now stands, could never work. It would give you too much, too easily, for one thing. Spells should very rarely be mana-free. It's dangerous.
Also, it needs a way to prevent out-of-color decks from running these cards without worrying about mana colors.
The idea, however, is great. Very B/W, and very fun, but it needs to be limited so that it's not broken from birth. Here's one way to go (And forgive my lack of game-appropriate wording on the reminder text. Also, please forgive my obsession with including flavor text on nonexistent cards):
Rot-wing Bleeder 3BB
Creature- Vampire Imp
Flying
Thaumaturgy (As you play Rot-wing Bleeder you may pay any amount of life. Rot-wing Bleeder's cost is reduced by 1 for each point of life paid this way.)
An offering of blood will buy the loyalty of even the most simple-minded of vampires.
3/2
That way spells with Thaumaturgy are never free. This card would be straight-up bad if you pay no life for it, decent if you pay one or two life for it, and would give you a significant edge if you paid all three.
Therefore, you're being rewarded for paying life by getting the card at a lower cost than its P/T and abilities would normally call for, but you can't just drop a gamewinner on turn one either. It accelerates the game, but doesn't break it.
Another way could be this:
Bloodhungry Priest 1W
Creature- Vampire Cleric
Thaumaturgy 4 (If you control a Plains, you may pay four life rather than pay Bloodhungry Priest's mana cost)
B, Sacrifice Bloodhungry Priest: You gain 2 life.
He preys behind stained glass.
1/1
Yes I did steal the flavor text from Billy Talent's song Devil in a Midnight Mass. Why do you ask?
This has the Masques Block-esque limitation of needing that color's land so that you can't drop something of cost 1WWBBB in a mono red deck, or even a deck with no lands at all, or something ridiculous like that. You may note that the Thaumaturgy cost is specific to the card, not the cost. This way, you can set each card's life payment at something that could be uncomfortably high for the card, thus keeping the cards in check. As I've said probably seven times in this post, mana-free cards are dangerous, so you need the other costs to be harsh.
A third way would be:
Faithless Healer 3WB
Creature-Human Cleric
Thaumaturgy (As you play Faithless Healer, for B in its mana cost you may instead pay 3 life if you control a swamp. For each W in its mana cost you may instead have each opponent gain 3 life if you control a plains.)
Tap: Prevent the next three damage that would be dealt to target creature this turn. You lose life equal to the damage prevented this way.
"One man's gain is another man's suffering. Such is the way of the world."
3/3
I personally don't like this one, but it's just another suggestion. Once again it has the color-land limitation so that you can't play it in just any deck. With this you could also have it be "Thaumaturgy #" and # is the amound paid/gained. I am about certain that my wording on the reminder text is totally wrong, but I don't know how else to do it. With any luck, this mechanic won't be used and I won't have to worry about it. =P
With the original design, the game is just insane. Say you've got four copies of a card (For this example we'll say it's Lurking Blahblahblah, a 3/2 creature for 2WB with the original concept of Thaumaturgy) in hand. Turn one you play Hickory Woodlot, which comes into play tapped, then drop all four copies of Lurking Blahblahblah. Now you're at 4 life, your opponent is at 20, and you have four 3/2s. Even though this card's mana cost is too high already, you have four creatures that are more than big enough to block whatever 1-drops your opponent can play.
Next turn you lay a mountain. You play Nourish to heal for six then Lightning Bolt whatever your opponent played last turn. He has no blockers so you attack with all four Lurking Blahblahblah's. You are at ten life, your opponent is at eight. It's your turn two, the third turn of the game, and you have 4 3/2s, more life than your opponent, and all your opponent has is a land, and to top it all off, you're not even playing either of Thaumaturgy's colors.
Not to say that I don't like it. I'd love to play mono-blue counter/bounce with tons of Thaumaturgy cards and no plains or swamps, but, you know, that's not what the game's about.
And I'm not saying that any of my suggestions are the right way to go, or even good. They're just examples of how to keep Thaumaturgy in line. Good enough to play (aside from, maybe, the third example), but not so good that it's the only thing anyone plays.
Edit: I would also like to mention, since I'm giving all sorts of unnecessary opinions, that I think my first example for Thaumaturgy seems to be the most interesting, most stable, and most fun.
Bounce is interesting. It would need some serious tweaking, however. I'm not even gonna get into that, though, because I'm pretty sure he's already decided on UR's mechanic and that's gonna be Æthersplash. I don't know how permanent it is, and I don't know if it's really going to be a purely UR mechanic, but it's on a UR card so I suppose it must be. *shrug*
On Zeal, I think that, for one thing, it'd be too hard to pick up on with the two (or three, depending on how you look at it) varieties. Also, to be honest, I think that it would be too good. Think of a deck with all Red creatures with Zeal. You'd deal way too much damage.
For one thing, I think Zeal should be one mechanic. It should have both the power and the toughness boosters in one. (When ~ attacks, it gets +X/+Y where X is the number of attacking red creatures and Y is the number of attacking white creatures.) Also note that I limited it to attacking creatures, so it's not quite as powerful unless you go all-out aggressive attacking. Even so it could be too powerful. It is, however, a good idea for W/R's militant nature. If Weirdling likes the idea, I'd definitely be interested in helping to create and balance this mechanic.
Create. Create feels like it would be way too powerful, or way too boring. One way (reasonably priced like a 4/4 for 4) is something like the Penumbra cards, but insane because it creates so many copies (4 4/4s is scary). Another (very highly priced like a 1/1 for 6) is more like the Onslaught block's Symbiotic cards, but boring because it is useless until it triggers (A single 1/1 sucks, then you suddenly get 6 1/1s when it dies). Another (underpriced, like a 3/3 for 2) is too powerful while it's out, then becomes even more so when it dies (It's too cheap at 2 mana, then it dies and you get two more for free). This would make it seem that you should go with minor overpricing (like a 3/3 for 5) but even then that gets ridiculous if it dies. This just seems either too crazy or too slow.
Perhaps it would be good if it were more like the Enchantment version. Just one copy. But even then that's not really interesting. I don't get excited by the thought of self-recycling cards. Not the way I do about rune counters, or spells that you cast every turn, or paying life to cheapen spells. Also, Weirdling said somewhere that he planned on UG being largely about deck-thinning, and this ability doesn't really fit with that theme.
This could either be done with a rule that is mostly just based around card drawing and land searching, or something entirely new. I was thinking something like this:
Procession (The name would probably have to go, but this is what comes to mind): (When ~ comes into play, search your library for a card named ~ and remove it from the game, then shuffle your library. If you do, until end of turn you may play that card as if it were in your hand.)
For non-permanents it would be (Search your library for a card named ~ and remove it from the game, then shuffle your library. If you do, until end of turn you may play that card as if it were in your hand.)
Example:
Teeming Growth 1G
Enchantment- Aura
Enchant land
When enchanted land is tapped for mana, its controller adds U to his or her mana pool.
Procession (When Teeming Growth comes into play, search your library for a card named Teeming Growth and remove it from the game, then shuffle your library. If you do, until end of turn you may play that card as though it were in your hand.)
The idea is that when you play the card, you can search for another, giving you card advantage and getting cards out of your deck so you're more likely to draw other cards. The downsides are 1) too high a mana cost for the card's effect, so that it's not too powerful and 2) if you don't play the card you searched for it's just gone from your deck. This could still be good to thin your deck, but also you are losing that card.
The obvious problem with this mechanic, besides being relatively uninteresting, uninnovative, and feeling more G than UG (Seriously, this was more or less already done with Nesting Wurm and Skyshroud Sentinel, both of which are mono-green), is that MTG rules say that if you are searching your library for a card with specific traits (in this case, the name) then you don't have to find something. This means that you never really run the risk of your cards being removed from the game without you getting use of them. If you don't have the mana you just don't find the card when you search. =/ In any case, I don't really like this mechanic, it was just an example to convey to you the idea of what I think Weirdling is looking for in the UG mechanic.
Spawn, also, feels overpowered. Perhaps Spawn (When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, until end of turn you may play cards named ~ without paying their mana costs.) I don't like the idea of Spawn giving you all cards that share a permanent type. That seems too strong.
To be honest, as a matter of opinion, I don't really even think that Spawn works that well with a BG theme. It feels more UG, or just G to me. But my opinion really isn't important here =)
First of all, thanks guys for contributing heavily to this thread. You guys have been constantly posting and tossing up ideas and suggestions that can be used to better this set as a whole. It's an even greater fact that you guys are 'new' posters and have started your posts (and kept your posts within. O.o) this thread. I'm flattered, really.
Now for the Ideas:
My set is based on Certain Magic arts that are practiced. The Use of Runology, Chaincasting (Or Channeling... Darn you, Kamigawa), Chaos and Formshifting are kinds of Magic that were practiced at one point in lore. So Ideally, Zeal kind of doesn't mesh with the ideals in abilties of this set. (It also feels like Radiance and Frenzy, for some reason.)
Bounce is actually another word for the familiar keyword, Gating. I'm surprised that Magic hasn't keyworded this one yet. (Maybe because it mentally comes out as a drawback. And people don't like drawbacks [Defender].) Gating is having a creature come into play whereas another creature of it's color returns to your hand as an additional cost.
Create may actually work in B/G's belief in the life/death cycle. I may be tweaking that in the future but the fact is, I'm still currently working on this current set. Heck, I'm not even 50% done. The art has been overkill for me. But currently, I think I'm doing fine. The Thaumaturgy tweaks sound good and it'll come in useful in the future set. Thanks again guys. Time to update the front page.
Oh, and Outlive, opinions are always important.
Forgotten Arts
Good call on Zeal, Weirdling. I hadn't even considered the fact that it's not really anything like a long-unused magic. It's just sort of strength from inspiration, which doesn't fit the theme at all.
Also a good call on Bounce. The similarity between it and Gating hadn't crossed my mind.
Weirdling, if you wish, feel free to post here (or email me at [EMAIL="OutliveYourself@yahoo.com"]OutliveYourself@yahoo.com[/EMAIL]) what your general ideas are for mechanics you haven't thought of yet. I'd be happy to help, but I need whatever ideas you have so far, so I have something to build on. What themes, if any, you plan on for each color, major themes (like the faction mechanics) or even just general ideas and subthemes (like the chaincasters' tapout theme).
I'm having tons of fun just thinking about this set, and I think that with some help I might be able to come up with some good ideas for you, if you want me to. Just let me know.
Here we go:
Invocation of Tides 1G
Sorcery
Search your library for an Island card and put it into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Conjure UUGG (If you have UUGG in your mana pool, you may play Invocation of Tides without paying its mana cost.)
There are a lot of things I'm not sure about here. For one thing, I don't know if it would be any good at all, or if it would be too good. I'd have to playtest it, but until Monday I'm on vacation and I didn't bring any cards with me, so that would have to wait until next week.
The problems that arise are:
I wanted to make the Conjure "cost" 2UG, but I think that would actually require specifically-colorless mana, like what you get from Syllabic Channeler, not like the kind of colorless that would be in a cost.
I really don't know what to think about this. One one hand, it could be insane. Turn four, if you have two islands and two forests, you can tap out, play Invocation of Tides for free, then lay another spell costing four. This could be incredibly good. On the other hand, if you don't have the exact balance of colors, you can't Conjure it at all, which makes it, obviously, pretty weak. This is why I wanted some of the Conjure requirement to not be color-specific, but I don't know how that could be done with the nature of the spell. I could do:
Invocation of Tides 1G
Sorcery
Search your library for an Island card and put it into play tapped. Then shuffle your library.
Conjure 2UG (If you have UG and at least two more mana in your mana pool, you may play Invocation of Tides without paying its mana cost.)
I think that would work, but how does the wording sound? I don't know if it sounds too unofficial. If anyone could give me some feedback on how this sounds, on whether it's even a good idea, on how under/over/perfectly-powered it is, whether it is inherently broken, how the rules wording is, how to fix it... Any opinions on this mechanic would be great. Especially from Weirdling, since, you know, it's his set and all
And then, of course, this wouldn't have to be UG, but that's what comes to mind, since it's kind of built around acceleration (green) and doing funky things with your spells (blue).
So... Feedback!
Infusing Channeler U
Creature- Vedalken Druid
G: Untap target unenchanted Forest.
U: Untap target unenchanted Island.
1/1
It would fit in with the cycle, because on its own, it seems nearly worthless, except for avoiding mana burn if you somehow end up with too much mana in your pool. However, it compliments Conjure in a way very similar to how your other Channelers compliment their mechanic:
This way (using Invocation of Tides as an example), you could tap two islands and two forests and conjure a free Invocation of Tides, then pay all of the mana to the Infusing Channeler to untap your lands.
This way, if you only had other spells adding up to a cost of one, or two, or three, then you could still cast them without receivin mana burn. Or you could just save the mana in case you need to use it during your opponent's turn.
The ability is balanced by the fact that the Conjure requirement is high for what you get. Yes, you do get a free spell, which is usually dangerous, but also you have to have an amount of mana available to you that is higher than what you would have when you would usually cast that spell. Also, it's only worth Conjuring if you already have another use for that mana. This way, you can't get anything at an earlier turn than what you normally would, but you can get out more things per turn.
Once again, it's just an idea. It may be too powerful, too weak, too easily breakable, or just not interesting, but it's something to get people thinking at least.
So if I can see anywhere this mechanic is going to be broken, it will be in having multiple copies of Conjure cards, or just several diffreent Conjure cards in hand.
When a creature you control with Zeal attacks, it gets ETC until end of turn. Comes in 3 versions.
Red creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the number of attacking mono-red creatures you control
White creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +0/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of attacking mono-white creatures you control
Red/White multicolored creature with Zeal: If this creature attacks, it gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of attacking Red/White multicolored creatures you control
Planar, I'm still lost about Zeal because it doesn't exactly seem 'magical' meaning spell or casting.
P.S.
Update again, first page as usual. It's GW weekend everyone!
Quick question. I'm going to put up text-versions of the cards now. Would you like them where the decks are or in their own section?
Forgotten Arts
GW: Choose either land or enchantment. Alaphia, Formshifter becomes the chosen type and isn’t a creature until end of turn. Play this ability only once per turn.
Thanks for that, mate.
Forgotten Arts
Life to the Faithful (Uncommon)
Sorcery
2WW
You gain 1 life for each mono-white creature card you control with Zeal
Flame to the Heretics (Uncommon)
Sorcery
2RR
You deal 1 damage to target creature or player equal to the number of mono-red creature cards you control with Zeal
Tala, Angel of Zeal (Rare)
Legendary Creature - Angel
4RRWW
*/*
Flying, Vigilance, Haste
Tala's attack & defense is equal to the number of creature cards you control with Zeal
Thaumaturgy: You may pay a number of life points instead of paying for a colorless mana cost
I don't know if this balances the mechanic or makes it stronger or weaker. Please respond with as many comments as possible
Forgotten Arts
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.