MTG Salvation

OK, I'm working on a group of cards that can add mana to any players mana pool, but if they don't use the mana they get "double mana burn."
How can I word this?

Something like:

• [mana adding part]. If this mana would cause a player to lose life by mana burn, that player loses 2 life instead.

Or...?

• [mana adding part]. This mana causes mana burn twice.

Is it important that it remain mana burn, or is substituting it with life loss (which mana burn is) sufficient?

For example, you may want some ability in your set which tabulates mana burn for some reason ("At the end of turn, if an opponent lost more than two life to mana burn" ... ?), then the first option, which re-casts the mana burn as life loss, will not trigger it. The second, "mana burn twice" effect, while unconventional, preserves it being mana burn, as opposed to life loss.

Quote from Le Chat »

Is it important that it remain mana burn, or is substituting it with life loss (which mana burn is) sufficient?

For example, you may want some ability in your set which tabulates mana burn for some reason ("At the end of turn, if an opponent lost more than two life to mana burn" ... ?), then the first option, which re-casts the mana burn as life loss, will not trigger it.

This is not true.

Replacement effects do not change the cause of the events they alter. If the original life loss is "caused" by "mana burn," all of the doubled life loss would be seen as "caused" by "mana burn" as well.

The second, "mana burn twice" effect, while unconventional, preserves it being mana burn, as opposed to life loss.

But the second really doesn't work, since "mana burn" does two things: it causes life loss, and it removes the mana from your pool. You can't remove it twice, so you can't burn twice.

Quote from Condor »

But the second really doesn't work, since "mana burn" does two things: it causes life loss, and it removes the mana from your pool. You can't remove it twice, so you can't burn twice.

Although knowing it, I had to do since the first one felt just too wordy...

Hm, let's see...

• This mana causes a player to lose 1 additional life by mana burn.
• This mana causes 1 additional life loss as it burns.
• This mana burns for 2 life.

I kind of like the last one.

i think it would be.. "Whenver this mana burns, that player loses twice as much life instead."

Quote from Shimakuma »

Although knowing it, I had to do since the first one felt just too wordy...

Well, the way Magic modifies events is by using replacment effects. Furnace of Rath could just say "Sources deal twice as much damage," but they don't. It leaves the interactions with other effects undefined.

But it doesn't have to be quite that wordy: "If this mana would cause you mana burn, you lose 2 life instead of 1."

Quote from iphanx »

i think it would be.. "Whenver this mana burns, that player loses twice as much life instead."

You are mixing the wordings for triggers ("Whenever...") with replacements ("... instead"). You can't do that.

Quote from Condor »

"If this mana would cause you mana burn, you lose 2 life instead of 1."

Hmm, so you shortened "cause you loss of life due to mana burn" to "cause you mana burn". Tricky, but neat.

Isn't the phrase "instead of 1" a little awkward, though?
Say, I have these in play:

Chronoplasm's Searchlight
4
Artifact
T: A player of your choice adds 1 to his or her mana pool. If this mana would cause that player mana burn, he or she loses 2 life instead of 1.


Sin of the Waste
BG
Enchantment
If an opponent would lose life due to mana burn, he or she loses double that life instead.

1 from card-A in my mana pool is about to mana burn. I choose to apply card-B's replacement first. Would I lose 2 life, or 4 life?

I was assuming there would be no other replacements effects, to shorten the text. If there are, you need to make it longer, or make a rule that it is a self-replacement (and thus always goes first).

I like Chronoplasm's Searchlight. I think that should work. Thanks guys! ^^

*fixes typo*

So the shortest(I think) suggested wording as of now is...

• If this mana would cause a player to lose life due to mana burn, he or she loses double that life instead.

Interestingly, even though I think the word "due" is unnecessary, the only card in existence with that word is the Unhinged Mox Lotus.

Quote from Samyueru »

[color=red]Originally Posted by Condor
You are mixing the wordings for triggers ("Whenever...") with replacements ("... instead"). You can't do that.

[Why not? Surely when the ability triggers, and resolves, then the game sees the "instead" clause, and replace the first bit with the "instead" bit?

Because triggered abiliteis and replacement abilities work completely different. Triggered abilities occur after the event happens. Replacements are applied before the event would happen, and make a different event happen. They do not "trigger."

Also, in your example, is the "of 1" clause really nessesary?

Depends on how may mana the effect produces, and if external effects can alter mana burn as well. That probably isn't how it would be worded, but the concept needs to be addressed. So I effectively left a placeholder for whomever tried to complete the ability.