"Hello! I've come to serenade you. I can't play guitar. I can't play this accordion either, but I thought it'd be less obvious."
Dylan Moran, Black Books
I don't see any problems off the bat. Putting lands into play for your land drop and tapping them for mana already don't use the stack so the game has flexabiliy.
For some reason I get a feeling it might cause problems with paying for spells, I'm probably wrong though.
This is fine. It just shortens the process to:
Announce spell
Pay all costs for spell
Resolve the spell
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Which color are you?
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When you change the basic rules of the game (which this does), then yes it could potentially become a rules nightmare. I can't even begin to imagine what happens when everything resolves "instantly" as far as how the rules are impacted, let alone what this does to interactivity in matches.
Plus, I'd also question why this is in Green, since it's pretty obvious that certain "rule changing effects" belong in White (we have the Green enchantment that lets mana accumulate in mana pools, but that seems to be in Green because of the "mana" connection). This seems awfully White to me.
Players cannot play spells and activated abilities while another spell or activated ability is on the stack.
Now the card doesn't mess up with the rules of the game, it simply limits the players' options to play stuff, in a way similar to Rule of Law or City of Solitude. Does that solve the problem?
Players cannot play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities while another object is on the stack.
What this does is prevent a player from playing spells or abilities when anything is on the stack, whether it be an activated ability, spell or triggered ability. However, they can still play mana abilities (which shouldn't be turned off for obvious reasons).
Still, this is a very White ability, not a Green one.
Circumvent GG
Enchantment
Spells and abilities don't use the stack. (They can't be countered or responded to.)
Is this a rules nightmare?
Two words: "multiple triggers." Gah.
Ignoring the fact that you have to put a spell or ability on the stack before you can play it, if multiple triggers on one event don't "use the stack," what happens to them? Do they resolve one at a time, in some order? Or do they (like now) all get announced (not "played"), before any resolve? What if one triggers something else?
Quote from epeeguy »
When you change the basic rules of the game (which this does), then yes it could potentially become a rules nightmare.
Exactly. Intelligent "card design" means thinking about what you are trying to do, not just throwing in random tweaks, or removing random parts of the game. The rules are there for more than just having a way to explain a result. They often make the whole process work.
Quote from Puchik »
How about this wording:
Players cannot play spells and activated abilities while another spell or activated ability is on the stack.
Very good. This addresses what the original poster wanted to happen, without removing any of the necessary parts the game needs. Like having a place to put the spells and abilities you play, and multiple triggers. But note that players (maybe) can play mana abilities (they are usually exempted, as epeeguy points out), and un-morph creatures. A better wording might be "Players must pass priority if the stack is not empty." You can exempt mana abilities, if you want.
Players cannot play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities while another object is on the stack.
Still, this is a very White ability, not a Green one.
I don't know. I agree with you that white is the color of setting rules, but I can see this as fitting green's flavor. Green wants things to happen and resolve at a natural pace, with no interference.
And this card would serve as a good kick to the gut for green's nemesis, blue. I mean, there's nothing more disheartening to a green mage than tapping 4 or 5 mana to put a big stompin' creature on the stack, and have the blue mage tap 2 mana and counter it.
As far as the card is concerned, the way Puchik and epeeguy have worded it is very elegant, and seems to do what the original designer was intending to do.
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All warfare is based on deception.
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I don't know. I agree with you that white is the color of setting rules, but I can see this as fitting green's flavor. Green wants things to happen and resolve at a natural pace, with no interference.
Which is why Green has a card like Insist, which specifically interacts with Creature spells. Red has a similar card like Overmaster which does the same thing. Both those things are rather specific to the particular spells that those colors like to play, and don't go outside that scope.
Hence why this seems White; it does a lot more than simply interact with Creature or Sorcery spells. It basically makes ANY spell uncounterable. Plus it changes the basic operations of a zone; that is, it prevents people from playing any spell or ability once the stack has something on it. You could almost compare this card to spells like Rule of Law (which prevents multiple spells from being played) and Kismet (which changes how things are put into play), amongst other things. The card does something more fundamental in nature to the rules of the game.
It it was simply limited to "Creature spells and activated abilities of creatures can't be countered", then I would agree that it was a very Green ability. But it unfortunately isn't limited in what it affects (it affects everything rather globally). As such, this seems more White in that it changes the rules of the game, as opposed to some other color (that simply "affects" how players interact with certain types of spells).
Players cannot play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities while another object is on the stack.
What this does is prevent a player from playing spells or abilities when anything is on the stack, whether it be an activated ability, spell or triggered ability. However, they can still play mana abilities (which shouldn't be turned off for obvious reasons).
Still, this is a very White ability, not a Green one.
This would probably be better worded as:
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities any time a sorcery could be played."
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities any time a sorcery could be played."
I don't think this was the original intention. Your wording disallows playing stuff during combat, as well at "at the end of your turn, I...". Not that it's necessarily worse, just not at all similar as to what was proposed originally.
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities any time a sorcery could be played."
The intent of the card is to prevent people from playing counterspells or otherwise responding to spells on the stack, not to alter the timing rules for spells and activated abilities in general.
If you do as you suggest, then people cannot play Instants during the Draw Step or during the End of Turn Step, nor play activated abilities during the Combat Phase. Which makes the card considerably less interesting. At least to me.
The intent of the card is to prevent people from playing counterspells or otherwise responding to spells on the stack, not to alter the timing rules for spells and activated abilities in general.
If you do as you suggest, then people cannot play Instants during the Draw Step or during the End of Turn Step, nor play activated abilities during the Combat Phase. Which makes the card considerably less interesting. At least to me.
Then how about a similar wording to his?
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities when the stack is empty."
It avoids the use of the word "object," which I'm not even sure is defined, and works pretty nicely as a wording.
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities when the stack is empty."
"Players can only play spells or non-mana activated abilities when the stack is empty."
Quote from Destrius »
It avoids the use of the word "object," which I'm not even sure is defined, and works pretty nicely as a wording.
From the CompRules:
Object An “object” is a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, an ability on the stack, or combat damage on the stack. The term “object” is used in these rules when a rule applies to cards, copies of cards, tokens, spells, permanents, abilities on the stack, and combat damage on the stack. See rule 200.8.
"Players can only play spells or non-mana activated abilities when the stack is empty."
From the CompRules:
Object An “object” is a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, an ability on the stack, or combat damage on the stack. The term “object” is used in these rules when a rule applies to cards, copies of cards, tokens, spells, permanents, abilities on the stack, and combat damage on the stack. See rule 200.8.
I stand corrected! Heh, no worries. I'm a little fuzzy lately. Hard to keep myself exact and my memory straight for some reason. My mistake.
"Players can only play spells or non-mana activated abilities when the stack is empty."
Nitpicks: Of the three types of abilities -- static, triggered, and activated -- players can only play activated abilities. Triggered abilities don't get played, even when their triggering condition is met; they're simply put on the stack. And continuous effects simply "are"; they never use the stack.
We do need to differentiate between mana and non-mana activated abilities, since mana abilities also don't use the stack.
The "when" in the sentence might suggest that this ability is itself triggered. We can use the "any time" locution that's used for playing spells 'as' instants to avoid this.
So, the final wording should be: "Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities any time the stack is empty."
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Playlace --
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Nitpicks: Of the three types of abilities -- static, triggered, and activated -- players can only play activated abilities. Triggered abilities don't get played, even when their triggering condition is met; they're simply put on the stack. And continuous effects simply "are"; they never use the stack.
I understand that. However, look at the wordings from:
While I understand the rules that way, and understand that players only play spells and activated abilities, it is simply clearer and more direct to say both directly and leave there to be no confusion. Likewise, this suggestion follows already templated cards.
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Enchantment
Spells and abilities don't use the stack. (They can't be countered or responded to.)
Is this a rules nightmare?
spanglegluppet dot com
"Hello! I've come to serenade you. I can't play guitar. I can't play this accordion either, but I thought it'd be less obvious."
Dylan Moran, Black Books
For some reason I get a feeling it might cause problems with paying for spells, I'm probably wrong though.
Announce spell
Pay all costs for spell
Resolve the spell
Which color are you?
Non-Judge - Comprehensive Rules Delver
|| Autocard || My Latest Project ||
Random quote of the last time I updated my sig:
"...FOMG THE SCROLL LOCK KEY DOES SOMETHING "
When you change the basic rules of the game (which this does), then yes it could potentially become a rules nightmare. I can't even begin to imagine what happens when everything resolves "instantly" as far as how the rules are impacted, let alone what this does to interactivity in matches.
Plus, I'd also question why this is in Green, since it's pretty obvious that certain "rule changing effects" belong in White (we have the Green enchantment that lets mana accumulate in mana pools, but that seems to be in Green because of the "mana" connection). This seems awfully White to me.
Players cannot play spells and activated abilities while another spell or activated ability is on the stack.
Now the card doesn't mess up with the rules of the game, it simply limits the players' options to play stuff, in a way similar to Rule of Law or City of Solitude. Does that solve the problem?
(The effect, for practical purposes, will the the same: I Shock your creature, you cannot Unsummon, Giant Growth or regenerate in response)
Players cannot play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities while another object is on the stack.
What this does is prevent a player from playing spells or abilities when anything is on the stack, whether it be an activated ability, spell or triggered ability. However, they can still play mana abilities (which shouldn't be turned off for obvious reasons).
Still, this is a very White ability, not a Green one.
Ignoring the fact that you have to put a spell or ability on the stack before you can play it, if multiple triggers on one event don't "use the stack," what happens to them? Do they resolve one at a time, in some order? Or do they (like now) all get announced (not "played"), before any resolve? What if one triggers something else?
Exactly. Intelligent "card design" means thinking about what you are trying to do, not just throwing in random tweaks, or removing random parts of the game. The rules are there for more than just having a way to explain a result. They often make the whole process work.
Very good. This addresses what the original poster wanted to happen, without removing any of the necessary parts the game needs. Like having a place to put the spells and abilities you play, and multiple triggers. But note that players (maybe) can play mana abilities (they are usually exempted, as epeeguy points out), and un-morph creatures. A better wording might be "Players must pass priority if the stack is not empty." You can exempt mana abilities, if you want.
I don't know. I agree with you that white is the color of setting rules, but I can see this as fitting green's flavor. Green wants things to happen and resolve at a natural pace, with no interference.
And this card would serve as a good kick to the gut for green's nemesis, blue. I mean, there's nothing more disheartening to a green mage than tapping 4 or 5 mana to put a big stompin' creature on the stack, and have the blue mage tap 2 mana and counter it.
As far as the card is concerned, the way Puchik and epeeguy have worded it is very elegant, and seems to do what the original designer was intending to do.
--Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Level 2 DCI Judge
Which is why Green has a card like Insist, which specifically interacts with Creature spells. Red has a similar card like Overmaster which does the same thing. Both those things are rather specific to the particular spells that those colors like to play, and don't go outside that scope.
Hence why this seems White; it does a lot more than simply interact with Creature or Sorcery spells. It basically makes ANY spell uncounterable. Plus it changes the basic operations of a zone; that is, it prevents people from playing any spell or ability once the stack has something on it. You could almost compare this card to spells like Rule of Law (which prevents multiple spells from being played) and Kismet (which changes how things are put into play), amongst other things. The card does something more fundamental in nature to the rules of the game.
It it was simply limited to "Creature spells and activated abilities of creatures can't be countered", then I would agree that it was a very Green ability. But it unfortunately isn't limited in what it affects (it affects everything rather globally). As such, this seems more White in that it changes the rules of the game, as opposed to some other color (that simply "affects" how players interact with certain types of spells).
This would probably be better worded as:
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities any time a sorcery could be played."
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I don't think this was the original intention. Your wording disallows playing stuff during combat, as well at "at the end of your turn, I...". Not that it's necessarily worse, just not at all similar as to what was proposed originally.
The intent of the card is to prevent people from playing counterspells or otherwise responding to spells on the stack, not to alter the timing rules for spells and activated abilities in general.
If you do as you suggest, then people cannot play Instants during the Draw Step or during the End of Turn Step, nor play activated abilities during the Combat Phase. Which makes the card considerably less interesting. At least to me.
Then how about a similar wording to his?
"Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities when the stack is empty."
It avoids the use of the word "object," which I'm not even sure is defined, and works pretty nicely as a wording.
"Players can only play spells or non-mana activated abilities when the stack is empty."
From the CompRules:
Object
An “object” is a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, an ability on the stack, or combat damage on the stack. The term “object” is used in these rules when a rule applies to cards, copies of cards, tokens, spells, permanents, abilities on the stack, and combat damage on the stack. See rule 200.8.
I stand corrected! Heh, no worries. I'm a little fuzzy lately. Hard to keep myself exact and my memory straight for some reason. My mistake.
Nitpicks: Of the three types of abilities -- static, triggered, and activated -- players can only play activated abilities. Triggered abilities don't get played, even when their triggering condition is met; they're simply put on the stack. And continuous effects simply "are"; they never use the stack.
We do need to differentiate between mana and non-mana activated abilities, since mana abilities also don't use the stack.
The "when" in the sentence might suggest that this ability is itself triggered. We can use the "any time" locution that's used for playing spells 'as' instants to avoid this.
So, the final wording should be: "Players can only play spells or non-mana abilities any time the stack is empty."
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
I understand that. However, look at the wordings from:
Pithing Needle
Damping Matrix
While I understand the rules that way, and understand that players only play spells and activated abilities, it is simply clearer and more direct to say both directly and leave there to be no confusion. Likewise, this suggestion follows already templated cards.