But anyway, I'd say no. Triggered abilities only trigger when the permanent is in play, and if it's in play, it can't see itself come into play, so no trigger.
Yes, it would trigger. As it comes into play, it sees itself entering play. Yes, Unstable Shapeshifter immediately copies itself when it comes into play.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Yes, it would trigger. As it comes into play, it sees itself entering play. Yes, Unstable Shapeshifter immediately copies itself when it comes into play.
And Grinding Station gets a free (sorta) activation when it comes into play? That doesn't seem right...
No it wouldn't. Otherwise there would be no need for the cards that say "whenever this or another ~ comes into play, do something. This can be seen on cards like Goblin Assassin and Noxious Ghoul.
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Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
Emphasis mine. It triggers.Yes, Grinding Station gets a free untap, but no one's exploited this combo, so it has yet to receive errata to fix it. Noxious Ghoul and the like say "NAME or another X" for the same reason that Proteus Staff says to put the cards on the bottom in any order, but Goblin Ringleader does not - templating.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
the problem is that your emphasis doesn't really prove your point.
“Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” part is just clarifying the types of comes into play abilities that exist. including the newcomers is just stating that each permanent is checked for comes into play abilities as well to know that when mass returning happens each permanent sees each OTHER permanent come into play.
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Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
I'm pretty sure cards can "see themself" come into play... if they can't then how to any of the "comes into play" triggers work? The rules quote above aren't as clear as they could be, but don't seem to imply any difference between "When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .”.
Whatever the case, the standard templating seems to be to explicitly say what you mean, ie either "Whenever [CARDNAME] or another creature..." or just "Whenever another creature...".
***Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play,
-Such as the creature spell resolving and putting the creature into play
***all permanents in play (including the newcomers)
-Everything, even the new one
***are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
-And look, the event, creature coming into play, matches the triggered ability of the new creature that just came into play.
The rules (specifically 410.10a) really do cover it. If we have to take every discussion to the rulings forum because you disbelieve the ruling, this entire forum is pretty pointless.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
If we have to take every discussion to the rulings forum because you disbelieve the ruling, this entire forum is pretty pointless.
To the best of my knowledge nobody has taken this to the rulings forum.. and I am willing to accept your judgement on the ability, though I may ask around a bit irl just to be certain before I try and abuse something with that ability. The subforum is not pointless because was designed to argue points that cannot be compared to actual situation such as the "cannot be tapped" question or something completely random like Mindslaver would have been before there was a FAQ to explain things.
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Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.
It does trigger itself, pretty much in the same way Rotlung Reanimator's ability triggers even if he's put into a graveyard at the same time as other creatures. FOr example, you control a Reanimator and another cleric. Your opponent plays a Wrath of God. You get two tokens, and not one.
It does trigger itself, pretty much in the same way Rotlung Reanimator's ability triggers even if he's put into a graveyard at the same time as other creatures. FOr example, you control a Reanimator and another cleric. Your opponent plays a Wrath of God. You get two tokens, and not one.
Rotlung Reanimator is something of a bad example, because it includes its own name in the text of the leaves play ability. In which case some people may consider that it is because of its own name being included in the triggered ability that causes this to happen.
But yes, as Woapalanne has said, the CompRules as written do permit this to have the intended effect. If you want to make it not to untap itself when it comes into play, then it needs to say:
"Whenever another creature comes into play, untap ~this."
At this point, the triggered ability's event is defined to look for "another creature" coming into play. So, it will only look for something other than itself coming into play.
Just think about it like this. Cards with comes into play triggered abilities have to be able to see themselves come into play, or all the cards with "When ~this~ comes into play, ..." such as Cloud of Faeries, Flametongue Kavu, Eternal Witness, etc. wouldn't work.
Woapalanne is correct; this permanent would trigger off itself entering play. If it were forced to come into play tapped by some effect, you could untap it when the triggered ability resolves.
I think the confusion may lie in the "spiritcraft" triggers from the Kamigawa sets. Because they were worded, "whenever you play a spirit or arcane spell, [do X]," they did not trigger themselves, because they'd need to be permanents to see themselves getting played, and they're not -- they're still spells on the stack.
"Whenever a creature comes into play, untap this."
Would the card trigger off itself being played? For example, if it came into play tapped?
But anyway, I'd say no. Triggered abilities only trigger when the permanent is in play, and if it's in play, it can't see itself come into play, so no trigger.
No, LSK, it wouldn't trigger its own effect, because it's not in play as it's coming into play.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Emphasis mine. It triggers.Yes, Grinding Station gets a free untap, but no one's exploited this combo, so it has yet to receive errata to fix it.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
“Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” part is just clarifying the types of comes into play abilities that exist.
including the newcomers is just stating that each permanent is checked for comes into play abilities as well to know that when mass returning happens each permanent sees each OTHER permanent come into play.
Whatever the case, the standard templating seems to be to explicitly say what you mean, ie either "Whenever [CARDNAME] or another creature..." or just "Whenever another creature...".
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-Such as the creature spell resolving and putting the creature into play
***all permanents in play (including the newcomers)
-Everything, even the new one
***are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
-And look, the event, creature coming into play, matches the triggered ability of the new creature that just came into play.
The rules (specifically 410.10a) really do cover it.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
To the best of my knowledge nobody has taken this to the rulings forum.. and I am willing to accept your judgement on the ability, though I may ask around a bit irl just to be certain before I try and abuse something with that ability. The subforum is not pointless because was designed to argue points that cannot be compared to actual situation such as the "cannot be tapped" question or something completely random like Mindslaver would have been before there was a FAQ to explain things.
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[L1 Judge|Add me to your ignore list]
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Rotlung Reanimator is something of a bad example, because it includes its own name in the text of the leaves play ability. In which case some people may consider that it is because of its own name being included in the triggered ability that causes this to happen.
But yes, as Woapalanne has said, the CompRules as written do permit this to have the intended effect. If you want to make it not to untap itself when it comes into play, then it needs to say:
"Whenever another creature comes into play, untap ~this."
At this point, the triggered ability's event is defined to look for "another creature" coming into play. So, it will only look for something other than itself coming into play.
I think the confusion may lie in the "spiritcraft" triggers from the Kamigawa sets. Because they were worded, "whenever you play a spirit or arcane spell, [do X]," they did not trigger themselves, because they'd need to be permanents to see themselves getting played, and they're not -- they're still spells on the stack.
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I used to write for MTGS, including Cranial Insertion and cube articles. Good on you if you can find those after the upgrade.