My question for the mods is... Was any discussion given over to simply relinquishing control of the FCC over to the community, rather than end it entirely? Much like what is happening now with the MCC. Now that we have a new feature card policy, the FCC could continue on 'under new management'.
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|_0|\|65407 (There; now you're fully l33t)
CCL Winner- July '08, Aug '08 Sept '08, Oct '08 Survivor- CCS: Lost in Takenuma, CCS: Stranded In Tolaria
I don't always play Jank, but when I do, I play Saffronolive.
Kenaron, I'm going to challenge your statement that the FCC was guaranteed to be doomed, however. The non-mods now get a chance to see if we can do any better, and while I think it will be a little bumpy to begin with, I think we have a chance. If you'd like to come reshape the contest's future, instead of doomsaying, we'd welcome your insight. (Your's too, Bel, I just don't see you as quite as pessimistic as Kenaron has been. Your stance has seemed to have been "something's broken", not "shoot the horse in the head.")
I think the FCC was savable until recently. I could make a list of what would have been involved, but ultimately that would only be my opinion and I began to suspect that the things I found wrong with the FCC were ultimately things that made it so popular. Somewhere along the way I started to feel that my success or failure each round was less dependent on my own skills versus those I was up against and more about random chance and a particular judge's whims. Somewhere along the line I stopped looking at my score as a measure of my cards and more like a modified coin flip whose ultimate goal is to get a trophy rather than design a card with the intent of playing with it. It only took one judge I completely disagreed with, and then some good judges were replaced with some that I felt weren't taking things seriously until end the end I became detached. This time last year if I got a high or low score I would have taken that to mean I had made a good or bad card (respectively) as opposed to recently where I more or less feel that scores are unrelated to a card's quality. This goes for success and failure, as I didn't take winning December to mean I had made a good card. Once you've lost faith with the judges there's nothing you can do but not play, and lately I've been playing more out of habit than anything else, hoping for some great change that now won't come.
I too respectfully disagree that recognition and a trophy beside ones name is what drives people to participate in the contest. The trophy can go by the wayside and I don't think there will be a problem. However, the lack of advertising on the front page might. There are plenty of players here who just enjoy creating new and interesting cards, but how long can a contest stay afloat without any real way to bring new people in? I will support the FCC replacement, no doubt, but it will have a steep uphill climb.
The FCC was a "well-polished machine" as the saying goes. It had everything needed to create a successful contest. It just didn't have the mods that were willing to adapt to a new environment (I mean no disrespect to the mods, I really liked each of you). The only certainty in life is change, and I wish the new contest all the luck in the world.
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"Drink Coffee: Do stupid things faster with more energy."
"Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against Stupidity"
The trophy can go by the wayside and I don't think there will be a problem. However, the lack of advertising on the front page might. There are plenty of players here who just enjoy creating new and interesting cards, but how long can a contest stay afloat without any real way to bring new people in? I will support the FCC replacement, no doubt, but it will have a steep uphill climb.
I too will admit that I looked forward to the prize of trophy/front-page, but I don't think that was the case when the FCC started (or when I started with the FCC). There might have been trophies, but not the front page. I noticed the contest because I was creating new cards in the card creation thread. I signed up on a whim, found that it was an excellent place to get constructive feedback and engage in a little competition, and have tried to participate ever since.
I don't know how much the "prize" attracts new players, but the value of the contest, to me, is the feedback in conjunction with the competition. (I'm not very good at Magic in general--too much Johnny, not enough Spike--so any competitive element in me has to find another outlet.)
I too will admit that I looked forward to the prize of trophy/front-page, but I don't think that was the case when the FCC started (or when I started with the FCC). There might have been trophies, but not the front page. I noticed the contest because I was creating new cards in the card creation thread. I signed up on a whim, found that it was an excellent place to get constructive feedback and engage in a little competition, and have tried to participate ever since.
I don't know how much the "prize" attracts new players, but the value of the contest, to me, is the feedback in conjunction with the competition. (I'm not very good at Magic in general--too much Johnny, not enough Spike--so any competitive element in me has to find another outlet.)
I remember starting because I thought I was good enough to compare with others. Honestly, I enjoyed the competition, and didn't know about the front page. Trophy was cool though.
I started because I was a CCL player and I felt like the FCC was a step up, the big leagues. Not because of the big fancy trophy, what's a bunch of binary at the end of the day, 1's and 0's. It was because it was always stickied to the top of the card creation page, like gossamer stars in the sky.
I know I'm a newbie by most standards, but the FCC meant something to me, it meant that by getting into the FCC, and surviving, that I had honed my creative flow into a fine laser, which I would proceed to fire. (couldn't resist BLAAAGH!)
And for those who did it for the trophy, is that really so bad? Given that it is a little twisted to covet something intangible, but are they wrong for wanting to be recognized for the time they carve out to create the masterpieces that earn them the title? No, it's when their covetous thoughts get in the way of their discretion, their respect for the game, and by association, the mods. When they want nothing more than those shiny gold pixels on their account, and they care not for the meticulous critiques that the judges give out.
In my first (and my last) FCC, my judge (who shall remain unnamed) ripped me a structurally superfluous new opening and royally tore the everliving [insert colorful noun here] out of my card....why? Because it sucked. I learned more about what was wrong with my way about card making in those few sentences he gave me, than I think I ever could.
In the end the mods made what they believed a necessary change, and it was more than likely made with great reluctance, they're not heartless machines, they're people, they started the FCC because they knew what it would represent, and they ended it because it became a different creature.
All I'm saying is, sure the FCC may be gone, but for those who loved it because of what it represented, the Eden of card creation and constructive feedback, it will always be alive, and maybe the MCC can rise to that challenge and become just as great.
This is the one thing you said that I don't believe. I don't think we should be continuing the FCC because the majority wants to; I think we should continue the FCC because it's still overall a positive feature of MTGSalvation.
If decision to kill the FCC were revoked then it would limp on for a while before dying in a much worse way.
Why do you say that? What evidence do you have to support the notion that the contestants wouldn't be having fun and/or wouldn't be getting better at designing well balanced, interesting, creative cards?
Was it simply this:
I didn't take winning December to mean I had made a good card.
You did make a good card. There may have been one or two better cards among the finalists, but yours was definitely one of the top 3. More importantly, your own lack of faith in the judges of the FCC has very little relevance to the current health of the FCC, although I do agree with your implication that you ought not to have been playing (for your own sake; I don't at all mean to imply I want to see any less of your abilities as a designer (EDIT: Oops, double negative. What I mean is "you're a great designer but if playing the FCC brings you no joy or growth, please don't do it")).
Do you honesty think that anything said here is going to convince Kraj to change his mind?
No more than you believe that telling another member to "grow up" is going to dissuade him or her from posting.
I do have faith that the mods are reasonable, rational people; if a point were made that they had simply overlooked, I would like to think it would cause them to reconsider. I don't believe they really did overlook anything, because I believe they wanted to keep the FCC going almost as much as I do and I imagine they were pretty thorough in considering the alternatives before pulling the plug.
I post my opinion anyway because there is a tiny chance that I can change Kraj's mind, and I have almost nothing to lose by trying.
The FCC was not only a fun contest, it was a great opportunity to grow as a designer, as well as showcasing "newer" designers with real talent, such as Dumb Luck.
Do you honesty think that anything said here is going to convince Kraj to change his mind? And if you do, do you think that things would be as good as they ever were? If you do then you need to grow up.
No more than you believe that telling another member to "grow up" is going to dissuade him or her from posting.
I must have misinterpreted your first comment, giving it meaning that it seemed was absent. Words won't change what you feel right now, but I believe time will. Note "I believe" in the previous sentence, as you have every right to prove me wrong.
You did make a good card. There may have been one or two better cards among the finalists, but yours was definitely one of the top 3. More importantly, your own lack of faith in the judges of the FCC has very little relevance to the current health of the FCC, although I do agree with your implication that you ought not to have been playing (for your own sake; I don't at all mean to imply I want to see any less of your abilities as a designer (EDIT: Oops, double negative. What I mean is "you're a great designer but if playing the FCC brings you no joy or growth, please don't do it")).
Shouldn't the judges be able to pick the best card though? This ties in my lack of faith in the game. I'm okay putting myself in the top 3, which is still an accomplishment, but so few of the judges even finished that it felt like I won by default. It was a hollow victory; maybe if more judges had finished I might put some value to it. I got the impression that the judges as a whole didn't care, hence the "crisis of faith" I've been talking about.
Anyway, I've been trying to renew my faith these past two months, and I think that if things had continued maybe I would have found it. If not then yes, I would have quit. There is no point doing something that you don't enjoy. Even if others have faith that you'll do a good job at something, if you don't want to do it then you shouldn't. Isn't this why the FCC is ending? I have full faith that the mods could keep the FCC going indefinitely, but for various reasons it stopped being rewarding.
Well this is fun. I take a break from the FCC while I get situated at college, but it takes me forever to get the extra money together for my own laptop. And now I arrive and... this.
I don't really understand people being taken so badly by surprise: I've seen the contest degrading for a year and I wasn't here for over half of it. Personally, I've always tried to get rid of any anger at a judge and get rid of it by talking to someone unrelated to the situation. It's still therapeutic and accomplishes just as much :p.
I'm going to pray the MCC works just as well as the FCC used to, and I'm going to pop over there right now and see if I have any loose change to throw into the idea pot.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Shouldn't the judges be able to pick the best card though? This ties in my lack of faith in the game. I'm okay putting myself in the top 3, which is still an accomplishment, but so few of the judges even finished that it felt like I won by default. It was a hollow victory; maybe if more judges had finished I might put some value to it. I got the impression that the judges as a whole didn't care, hence the "crisis of faith" I've been talking about.
Your card was the best card. What about those of us that actually tried and finished the judgings? Somehow we don't get factored into the equation or something?
Anyway, I've been trying to renew my faith these past two months, and I think that if things had continued maybe I would have found it. If not then yes, I would have quit. There is no point doing something that you don't enjoy. Even if others have faith that you'll do a good job at something, if you don't want to do it then you shouldn't. Isn't this why the FCC is ending? I have full faith that the mods could keep the FCC going indefinitely, but for various reasons it stopped being rewarding.
To be honest, I think the real reason here is that the mods just don't care enough to deal with it anymore. Certainly when something has gone wrong and I don't enjoy it, I simply stop caring enough to deal with the brackets and stickies, etc. It is a lot of work on their end as well, I can tell. I think that perhaps the only way to really show them that the FCC can be cured would be through the MCC itself.
And as I said, if you don't like it, change it yourself. I don't recall you even appearing in the MCC thread itself.
Your card was the best card. What about those of us that actually tried and finished the judgings? Somehow we don't get factored into the equation or something?
I disagree. I'd give the trophy to genysys if that were allowed. I think my objection looses something in text form, as the people I talk to on a daily basis agree with me and the MtgSal community thinks I'm being a tool about the issue.
And as I said, if you don't like it, change it yourself. I don't recall you even appearing in the MCC thread itself.
There is an other option when you don't like something. You might also note that I'm not on the player or judge sign up list. Changing the MCC to become what I wanted the FCC to be would be a long process and I don't think that what I want is the same as what you and others want. I think the best thing for the MCC is probably for me to just stay out of the way.
I disagree. I'd give the trophy to genysys if that were allowed. I think my objection looses something in text form, as the people I talk to on a daily basis agree with me and the MtgSal community thinks I'm being a tool about the issue.
No, but you did just devalued my opinion. I do admit that the difference between the two cards can make it swing either way (at least on my part of the judging), but I still think your card was better.
There is an other option when you don't like something. You might also note that I'm not on the player or judge sign up list. Changing the MCC to become what I wanted the FCC to be would be a long process and I don't think that what I want is the same as what you and others want. I think the best thing for the MCC is probably for me to just stay out of the way.
How would we know if you don't give any ideas? Besides that, there isn't going to be a perfectly ideal FCC/MCC in any sense of the word for anybody. None of us who are involved in the MCC will be perfectly satisfied with it, and it will unlikely ever happen. That doesn't preclude us from trying to see at least parts of it that would be agreeable.
On a personal note, I hate your defeatist attitude towards this all.
On a personal note, I hate your defeatist attitude towards this all.
I'm gonna have to agree with Kraj on the red marker. Our attitude isn't defeatist, we're all just upset. The FCC was dear to all participants, judges, and spectators. We're not hanging our heads in defeat because of mistakes we made as human beings that led to this untimely and grisly end, instead we're rising to the challenge, picking up the pieces and moving on (MCC), because now that we know what we have done wrong, we can strive to make ourselves better because of it.
A perfect example is myself. I suck at snowboarding, but when I give up, when I throw in the towel and hike down the mountain, I feel ashamed of myself, but when I get off my sore keister and keep on trying, I not only get better, but I feel better, because at least I tried.
And that is what we're doing now, trying to become better, and personally, I think we can do it.
Goodbye FCC. I hope you find peace among the infinite expanse of cyberspace.
I'm gonna have to agree with Kraj on the red marker. Our attitude isn't defeatist, we're all just upset. The FCC was dear to all participants, judges, and spectators. We're not hanging our heads in defeat because of mistakes we made as human beings that led to this untimely and grisly end, instead we're rising to the challenge, picking up the pieces and moving on (MCC), because now that we know what we have done wrong, we can strive to make ourselves better because of it.
A perfect example is myself. I suck at snowboarding, but when I give up, when I throw in the towel and hike down the mountain, I feel ashamed of myself, but when I get off my sore keister and keep on trying, I not only get better, but I feel better, because at least I tried.
And that is what we're doing now, trying to become better, and personally, I think we can do it.
Goodbye FCC. I hope you find peace among the infinite expanse of cyberspace.
That wasn't directed to you guys, who are doing the MCC.
That wasn't directed to you guys, who are doing the MCC.
I didn't want to say anything, but it was pretty obviously directed at just me. There is an update in the situation. Inspired by PJ's proposed rubric I've decided to give the MCC a shot. I could expound upon it's virtues but this isn't the thread for that. About half of the big ideas I'd like to push are tied up nicely in Design/Developemtn scale, again I won't get into the parciculars since this isn't the thread for it, but now I'm tenatively part of the MCC.
Is the fore-mentioned card of the month that will go up on the front page also going to get its own thread in the old card of the month forums? And, more importantly, are those cards the ones that will be voted on for card of the year?
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
It seems as though I was fairly harsh this round compared to the other judges that have posted so far. As usual, feel free to PM me with questions or comments.
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This is our last dance, this is ourselves under pressure.
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CCL Winner- July '08, Aug '08 Sept '08, Oct '08
Survivor- CCS: Lost in Takenuma, CCS: Stranded In Tolaria
I think the FCC was savable until recently. I could make a list of what would have been involved, but ultimately that would only be my opinion and I began to suspect that the things I found wrong with the FCC were ultimately things that made it so popular. Somewhere along the way I started to feel that my success or failure each round was less dependent on my own skills versus those I was up against and more about random chance and a particular judge's whims. Somewhere along the line I stopped looking at my score as a measure of my cards and more like a modified coin flip whose ultimate goal is to get a trophy rather than design a card with the intent of playing with it. It only took one judge I completely disagreed with, and then some good judges were replaced with some that I felt weren't taking things seriously until end the end I became detached. This time last year if I got a high or low score I would have taken that to mean I had made a good or bad card (respectively) as opposed to recently where I more or less feel that scores are unrelated to a card's quality. This goes for success and failure, as I didn't take winning December to mean I had made a good card. Once you've lost faith with the judges there's nothing you can do but not play, and lately I've been playing more out of habit than anything else, hoping for some great change that now won't come.
The FCC was a "well-polished machine" as the saying goes. It had everything needed to create a successful contest. It just didn't have the mods that were willing to adapt to a new environment (I mean no disrespect to the mods, I really liked each of you). The only certainty in life is change, and I wish the new contest all the luck in the world.
"Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against Stupidity"
I too will admit that I looked forward to the prize of trophy/front-page, but I don't think that was the case when the FCC started (or when I started with the FCC). There might have been trophies, but not the front page. I noticed the contest because I was creating new cards in the card creation thread. I signed up on a whim, found that it was an excellent place to get constructive feedback and engage in a little competition, and have tried to participate ever since.
I don't know how much the "prize" attracts new players, but the value of the contest, to me, is the feedback in conjunction with the competition. (I'm not very good at Magic in general--too much Johnny, not enough Spike--so any competitive element in me has to find another outlet.)
I would be more than willing to do anything to keep this thing running.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I remember starting because I thought I was good enough to compare with others. Honestly, I enjoyed the competition, and didn't know about the front page. Trophy was cool though.
Right here.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
www.pokemoncrossroads.com
I know I'm a newbie by most standards, but the FCC meant something to me, it meant that by getting into the FCC, and surviving, that I had honed my creative flow into a fine laser, which I would proceed to fire. (couldn't resist BLAAAGH!)
And for those who did it for the trophy, is that really so bad? Given that it is a little twisted to covet something intangible, but are they wrong for wanting to be recognized for the time they carve out to create the masterpieces that earn them the title? No, it's when their covetous thoughts get in the way of their discretion, their respect for the game, and by association, the mods. When they want nothing more than those shiny gold pixels on their account, and they care not for the meticulous critiques that the judges give out.
In my first (and my last) FCC, my judge (who shall remain unnamed) ripped me a structurally superfluous new opening and royally tore the everliving [insert colorful noun here] out of my card....why? Because it sucked. I learned more about what was wrong with my way about card making in those few sentences he gave me, than I think I ever could.
In the end the mods made what they believed a necessary change, and it was more than likely made with great reluctance, they're not heartless machines, they're people, they started the FCC because they knew what it would represent, and they ended it because it became a different creature.
All I'm saying is, sure the FCC may be gone, but for those who loved it because of what it represented, the Eden of card creation and constructive feedback, it will always be alive, and maybe the MCC can rise to that challenge and become just as great.
Many thanks from spiderboy at Highlight Studios
This is the one thing you said that I don't believe. I don't think we should be continuing the FCC because the majority wants to; I think we should continue the FCC because it's still overall a positive feature of MTGSalvation.
Why do you say that? What evidence do you have to support the notion that the contestants wouldn't be having fun and/or wouldn't be getting better at designing well balanced, interesting, creative cards?
Was it simply this:
You did make a good card. There may have been one or two better cards among the finalists, but yours was definitely one of the top 3. More importantly, your own lack of faith in the judges of the FCC has very little relevance to the current health of the FCC, although I do agree with your implication that you ought not to have been playing (for your own sake; I don't at all mean to imply I want to see any less of your abilities as a designer (EDIT: Oops, double negative. What I mean is "you're a great designer but if playing the FCC brings you no joy or growth, please don't do it")).
No more than you believe that telling another member to "grow up" is going to dissuade him or her from posting.
I do have faith that the mods are reasonable, rational people; if a point were made that they had simply overlooked, I would like to think it would cause them to reconsider. I don't believe they really did overlook anything, because I believe they wanted to keep the FCC going almost as much as I do and I imagine they were pretty thorough in considering the alternatives before pulling the plug.
I post my opinion anyway because there is a tiny chance that I can change Kraj's mind, and I have almost nothing to lose by trying.
I hope so. Thanks for your story; you described exactly what is still great about the FCC, and why I believe it is still worth saving.
I must have misinterpreted your first comment, giving it meaning that it seemed was absent. Words won't change what you feel right now, but I believe time will. Note "I believe" in the previous sentence, as you have every right to prove me wrong.
Shouldn't the judges be able to pick the best card though? This ties in my lack of faith in the game. I'm okay putting myself in the top 3, which is still an accomplishment, but so few of the judges even finished that it felt like I won by default. It was a hollow victory; maybe if more judges had finished I might put some value to it. I got the impression that the judges as a whole didn't care, hence the "crisis of faith" I've been talking about.
Anyway, I've been trying to renew my faith these past two months, and I think that if things had continued maybe I would have found it. If not then yes, I would have quit. There is no point doing something that you don't enjoy. Even if others have faith that you'll do a good job at something, if you don't want to do it then you shouldn't. Isn't this why the FCC is ending? I have full faith that the mods could keep the FCC going indefinitely, but for various reasons it stopped being rewarding.
I don't really understand people being taken so badly by surprise: I've seen the contest degrading for a year and I wasn't here for over half of it. Personally, I've always tried to get rid of any anger at a judge and get rid of it by talking to someone unrelated to the situation. It's still therapeutic and accomplishes just as much :p.
I'm going to pray the MCC works just as well as the FCC used to, and I'm going to pop over there right now and see if I have any loose change to throw into the idea pot.
Your card was the best card. What about those of us that actually tried and finished the judgings? Somehow we don't get factored into the equation or something?
To be honest, I think the real reason here is that the mods just don't care enough to deal with it anymore. Certainly when something has gone wrong and I don't enjoy it, I simply stop caring enough to deal with the brackets and stickies, etc. It is a lot of work on their end as well, I can tell. I think that perhaps the only way to really show them that the FCC can be cured would be through the MCC itself.
And as I said, if you don't like it, change it yourself. I don't recall you even appearing in the MCC thread itself.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
www.pokemoncrossroads.com
I disagree. I'd give the trophy to genysys if that were allowed. I think my objection looses something in text form, as the people I talk to on a daily basis agree with me and the MtgSal community thinks I'm being a tool about the issue.
There is an other option when you don't like something. You might also note that I'm not on the player or judge sign up list. Changing the MCC to become what I wanted the FCC to be would be a long process and I don't think that what I want is the same as what you and others want. I think the best thing for the MCC is probably for me to just stay out of the way.
No, but you did just devalued my opinion. I do admit that the difference between the two cards can make it swing either way (at least on my part of the judging), but I still think your card was better.
How would we know if you don't give any ideas? Besides that, there isn't going to be a perfectly ideal FCC/MCC in any sense of the word for anybody. None of us who are involved in the MCC will be perfectly satisfied with it, and it will unlikely ever happen. That doesn't preclude us from trying to see at least parts of it that would be agreeable.
On a personal note, I hate your defeatist attitude towards this all.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
www.pokemoncrossroads.com
1.) The judge was wrong or misinformed or rules clarifications, wording, or templating.
2.) The judge did something wildly unorthodox. What would be best be described as going against the majority of judges.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
Mod Helpdesk (defunct)
My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
Don't make me get out the red marker.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I'm gonna have to agree with Kraj on the red marker. Our attitude isn't defeatist, we're all just upset. The FCC was dear to all participants, judges, and spectators. We're not hanging our heads in defeat because of mistakes we made as human beings that led to this untimely and grisly end, instead we're rising to the challenge, picking up the pieces and moving on (MCC), because now that we know what we have done wrong, we can strive to make ourselves better because of it.
A perfect example is myself. I suck at snowboarding, but when I give up, when I throw in the towel and hike down the mountain, I feel ashamed of myself, but when I get off my sore keister and keep on trying, I not only get better, but I feel better, because at least I tried.
And that is what we're doing now, trying to become better, and personally, I think we can do it.
Goodbye FCC. I hope you find peace among the infinite expanse of cyberspace.
Many thanks from spiderboy at Highlight Studios
That wouldn't be necessary.
That wasn't directed to you guys, who are doing the MCC.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
www.pokemoncrossroads.com
I didn't want to say anything, but it was pretty obviously directed at just me. There is an update in the situation. Inspired by PJ's proposed rubric I've decided to give the MCC a shot. I could expound upon it's virtues but this isn't the thread for that. About half of the big ideas I'd like to push are tied up nicely in Design/Developemtn scale, again I won't get into the parciculars since this isn't the thread for it, but now I'm tenatively part of the MCC.
Good luck to all the contestants.
燃える時計秘密めく花の香り
www.pokemoncrossroads.com
It seems as though I was fairly harsh this round compared to the other judges that have posted so far. As usual, feel free to PM me with questions or comments.