I can understand why you don't want to get into blacklisting/infractions, but why not fire a warning shot over our heads as a wake-up call instead of cancelling the party wholesale?
I thought the big rules change, in response to the constant complaints fomr players and mods alike about the state of the game, was the warning shot.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Well this sucks. I finally get to play, and they shut down the game! Is there any way we could maybe try BlackBull's idea as a last-ditch effort? I've been having fun this month, and I love seeing all the cards everyone else comes up with. It would be such a shame to see the contest go.
Wow. This is truly a shame. This contest was the whole reason I joined MTGS in the first place. It's quite unfortunate that a few people who don't wish to follow the rules could ruin such a fun thing for the rest of us.
I implore the mods to reconsider this a few months down the line, just to give it another chance if perhaps circumstances may have changed by that point.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I say you guys can make a light-hearted version of the FCC. It was because too many people took it so seriously that it didn't work in the end.
You can still choose the card on the front page out of any card in the forum. But keep the "FCC" (maybe with some other name? but keeping the mechanics). The game is awesome, you can keep that. The winning card does not have to be featured in the front page for the game to be the fun it is.
This really is too bad. I found MTGS as a rumor site but stuck around for this contest. I've been watching this thing with interest for ages and finally decided to join up.
If this needs to happen though, it needs to happen. The mods have run this for the same reason we all judge or play: they think it's a great idea and love it. But the amount of work they have to put in is incredible, especially as of late.
I'm glad the community thought up the MCC idea so fast and I will keep learning as a designer there in the future. The structure that the FCC has been able to enjoy has been awesome, and I hope that we can still keep it up.
Regardless, I'd like to say myself, and for the rest of the community if I can take the liberty of proposing such a toast, thank you to Kraj, Shepherd, Moss_Elemental, and all the past mods for your awesome and endless work on the FCC. You've had a big responsiblity in keeping this thing together, and have done a great job until the very end. Thanks as well to all the judges and players who I've seen in action as I've watched these contests month after month since 2006 and all those before my time. If anyone wishes to end here regardless of whether an MCC works out or not, I wish that you've enjoyed yourselves as well and hope you've enjoyed your run. Lastly, I've not contributed to the fostering new game, but I'd like to say and think it's quite obvious that no one will begrudge you mods in the end for this and we'll all look forward to your involvement in any way to the MCC, if you so choose.
A last hurrah to this great game, on MTGS's best subforum!
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I wanted to step in and say something, but I think I pretty much just agree with what's already been said. It's a shame for it to end, and I'd love for there to be some way to prevent this, but I do understand the reasoning.
The FCC has been responsible for the majority of my participation at MTGS, especially recently. There structure of it made it a relatively easy contest to be a part of: the stickies meant I didn't have to spend time hunting for the threads and could always depend on the new threads going up on a reasonable regular schedule, and the roughly one card a week time frame was about perfect for the amount of time I had. The judging system meant I could always get tangible, useful feedback for my designs, and the competition aspect made it more rewarding when I managed to make a really great design.
I'll be sad to see it go, and I'm not sure if anything without mod organization can really replace it, although I hope that I'm wrong and look forward to the MCC.
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"Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast."
-Douglas Adams
I understand your concerns, especially that you thought the rules changes should have served as a wake-up call. However, habits can't be so quickly and easily changed, especially when the communication about the issues wasn't entirely direct. To borrow WhisperedThunder's metaphor (elsewhere), it's as though you were thinking about breaking up with us, but instead of having a discussion about the root issues, you threw down some new rules (with a bit of explanation) and hoped that would do the trick. I'm not sure that gave FCC players a fair chance to understand, much less respond (through action) to your concerns. I saw some good things starting to come out of the changes (the timing of rounds this months due to judge deadlines has been awesome!), but they were just that, starts. I really think that with a few more tweaks, and more time, you'll see more positive results. Esepcially now that people have a better idea of what specific concerns you had and just how much they've been frustrating the mods.
An idea I've been kicking around for the past couple of days was to have one or more "judging gurus" (not a title I was thinking of, but it's what comes to mind right now, and I realize having a title for it will be helpful). The judge training thread is extremely underused. "Judging gurus" would be dedicated individuals that gave feedback to the judges on each rounds' scores, what they found positive and what they felt might be improved, or seemed inconsistent from other scores, or ideas that it seemed the judge might not have considered, whatever. What they would not do is they would not overturn scores, nor would they assign point values with their comments. The feedback is coming from a third party with no other purpose, not the player, so there is likely to be less of a defensive reaction to the critique. At the same time, in theory, the overall quality of the judging process should improve as a result. Not only will judges get useful, unbiased feedback on their judgings, but newer judges will have a bit more to go on when reading the training thread. There are several individuals who are very excellent judges and card creators, who have expressed dissatisfaction with recent judgings, but who are clearly still interested in the FCC, that I think would be excellent in this kind of role, and I suspect might even enjoy such a role (Belgareth, for one).
An idea that I came up with just now in response to the recent announcement and discussion is to split the "Rules/Discussion" thread into two threads. One would be to discuss the current open round, questions about the requirements, topics such as whether or not to shut down the FCC, etc. The other thread would include any discussion of round results. The "results" thread would not have any content "pertinent" to playing FCC, and it would be left to be self-governing. Players and judges (and mods) that don't want to get into the arguing can ignore the thread if too much drama shows up, especially since judges will still be able to get useful feedback in the judge training thread, or via PM. I'm not sure how much I like this idea myself, mostly I'm brainstorming right now. I've been on other message boards where there was a dedicated area to Flaming. It seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping too much drama out of the other threads. I'm sort of thinking of a parallel along those lines.
I guess what I'm getting at is, before you decide to give up on the FCC community alltogether, give the community an opportunity to be part of the discussion, and possibly try and meet you half way with some solutions.
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This is our last dance, this is ourselves under pressure.
I realized that the only way we were really going to make a difference would be to either blacklist players who were causing problems, or start handing out infractions for people who ignored the new rules. Neither was an acceptable option.
Why aren't infractions an acceptable option? That's what they are there for, isn't it? Members breaking the forum rules?
But [the MCC] won't be the FCC, it won't be trophied, receive any special threads, or forum sponsorship. In other words, if you guys want to run it go right ahead, but it will treated like every other Custom Card game.
Do you think you would be at least willing to sticky it?
I think that Vishara's ideas have merit, and hope that they can be considered, but I don't feel like it's really my place to continue attacking the decisions of the mods when they've done so much for us already. If the FCC returns, I'll be the first one to sign up (as judge or player, whichever's needed). If not, we'll try to make the new version work.
I'd like to take a moment to express my gratitude to Kraj, Moss_Elemental, Shepherd, and AoK for all they've done for this contest. You four (specifically among many others) have been instrumental in making the game as fun as possible given what you had to work with, and I've been proud to be a part of it.
Even if it feels awfully cold, do realize that the decision to finally pull the official status plug on the FCC is not one that was taken lightly. It is not something we are happy to do, but in a way the FCC has run the course of the Roman Empire and is now in its last days.
On a personal note, I will miss the FCC. It was the one thing that got me to join the MTGS community and be a part of it. I also got to meet many great people, and it allowed me to appreciate the game in a way even when I don't get to go out and play that much.
Still, the closure of the FCC was necessary. While it was nice to lavish such things as a trophy, mod hosting, front page showcase, winners thread, and the like, to give all these things to one contest was like giving all the nice expensive gifts to one child. In a way, we kind of spoiled it.
Does that mean this format of a contest is Dead and Gone? That's for you to decide. If you guys want to revive the contest, it is your prerogative (and one that is already taken, I see). We wish you the best of luck.
To those who understand, we thank you. To those who object, we hope you would understand in time. While the FCC was a tradition to many, being a tradition does not mean we should regard it as a sacred cow. This one is a tradition that had finally run its course.
Still, it does not mean one can look back and enjoy the good old days. However, this is the time to move forward. In a way, the end of the FCC opens the door for many other contests to achieve their dreams of stardom.
This is tremendously disappointing. The existence of a forum that actually had an official contest was the primary reason of me joining this forum, having come here from the WizO boards. I had always hoped I'd be able to one day earn trophy, and I was getting close to that point, I thought. Knowing that I missed that opportunity is... quite depressing. I did used to gripe about my ratings a fair amount, prior to the rules change, but it was always more in an effort to understand my judge's point of view. I understood full well that I could have missed some important aspect of the design.
...
This really feels like an excessive punishment here. There were some bumps here and there, but it usually seemed to run quite smoothly. I can only think of a couple times where it really got out of hand, and even then it was still generally good natured. I implore you to reconsider.
I made a post for everyone who wants to sign in favor of saving the contest, our contest. Signing means a compromise, so think it twice before doing it.
I don't know if it's legal or not. Please mods, feel free to punish me and/or closing the post if it's out of the forum rules.
I wanna invite you and everyone to singn it here, because as almost of us think, this is the Custom Card Creation's spirit, and I don't wanna see it die.
This really feels like an excessive punishment here.
Nobody is being punished. We are not taking something away to attempt to alter behavior. We are choosing to stop running a game that is not functioning the way it is wanted and intended to function.
I made a post for everyone who wants to sign in favor of saving the contest, our contest.
I really don't think that is necessary. This thread is perfectly adequate for airing your feelings about the FCC, a petition is not going to change the situation, and several members have already put a replacement contest in motion. That really ought to suffice.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Nobody is being punished. We are not taking something away to attempt to alter behavior. We are choosing to stop running a game that is not functioning the way it is wanted and intended to function.
You are taking away the only tangible and perceivable achievements for card creation on the internet, the one discerning aspect of these forums, and a long running tradition. It's not going to stop the game from functioning whatsoever, because we've already set up a new one. The way we behave in the new one will be no different. The only difference is the lack of a tangible reward, and in preventing them from being earnable you are effectively taking them away. You did this because some people were being more irate than you desired, and so hopefully removing the carrot will prevent that from happening. You are effectively punishing the majority because a few who acted out.
You say it is not functioning the way it is wanted and intended to function. By whom? It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of folks here wants it to function precisely the way it is, and no differently.
Also the winners forum and the trophies hunting was what turned the contest bitter (along with the silly rules changes).
The "silly" rules changes were, as Kraj explained, a last-ditch effort to preserve the FCC, and it was the people who ignored them and continued to clutter the Rules/Discussion thread with complaints that "turned the contest bitter."
Your "black cat" analogy is entirely fallacious.
Infractions would not have made the contest any less fun than ending it altogether.
The biggest problem I had with the FCC was the post round complaining, which can be attributed to an unwillingness for various individuals to accept loss and a childlike belief that complaining is a proper way to fix the situation. Asking the mods to keep the FCC going is really the same thing. The right thing to do is to accept a loss and move on.
I would like the FCC to continue, don't get me wrong. The problem is that if the efforts to convince the mods to return to business as usual did succeed then post round complaining would be at an all time high because that behavior will have been validated. At this point, any effort to fix the FCC would only break it, so it's best to end abruptly.
At this point, any effort to fix the FCC would only break it, so it's best to end abruptly.
The only problem with your logic is that we can't possibly get any more "broken" than it is now, which is essentially "sentenced to death."
The FCC was not only a fun contest, it was a great opportunity to grow as a designer, as well as showcasing "newer" designers with real talent, such as Dumb Luck. It also created a space for good judging to be appreciated. I was very impressed by the amount of effort put into the contest by Milldawg, JqlGirl, Howler13, Vishara, and several others.
I will admit that keeping the contest going by handing out infractions could (and probably would) lead to even more hurt feelings than simply letting it die, but I feel that the potential for growth in people (even in the ones who would hypothetically receive infractions) is more than enough of a benefit to outweigh the cost.
Kraj/Shep/M_E, what will happen with the FCC trophies already awarded? I mean, I'm proud of mine, but two years down the road, it's not going to have the same bearing as it does to me today, as they'll feel like hangers-on/reminders of the past. I don't know if I want them gone, I don't know if I really want them...has this been discussed?
I think that's overly harsh.
Also the winners forum and the trophies hunting was what turned the contest bitter (along with the silly rules changes).
Kraj/M_E etc are seriously not doing this out of spite and it's unfair to suggest they are trying to punish people.
Did you perceive it as becoming a bitter competition? I may be speaking for myself here, but the only time I've really noticed anything to that extent was when there was a confusion as to how an effect worked, the flavor, or the intended definition of a word (Casket? ;)). The one time I was personally bitter about it was my first FCC where you and I disputed over the wording of my land (which I maintain is still accurate, but I digress.) Even though the trophy was desirable, that was not the goal. For me, at least, FCC was progressing precisely as intended. I designed cards for the sake of designing, bouncing interesting ideas off judges I knew I could receive detailed criteria from. That's why I frequently posted so many off-the-wall effects (Vivid comes to mind, changing the active player at random, and manipulating the sideboard) However, it was a fun motivation to have. A dream that perhaps once I became talented enough I would have something to show for it and be proud of. Is it necessary? No. But now that dream has been taken away and I resent that.
Maybe "intended" is confusing, but the contest was not functioning as it previously had based on a bit of fun and a way for people to undergo the creativity and challenge of a round based card creation contest.
It had largely become a case of arguing that your card deserved to win and playing the judge (especially newer ones).
The mods tried really hard to eliminate this with gimmicks such as hidden judges, hidden brackets etc and people just moaned because they wanted to know who the judge was so they could design a card around their tastes (weirdly people always made me green elves a while back till I pointed out it was fruitless), or waiting to see what their opponents posted.
This ruined the contest in all eyes but those who were doing it, everything was about the win and the spirit of the contest was lost.
Obviously posting a rule saying you can't debate issues was stupid as it's exactly the same as saying "don't think of a black cat" .
Unless a rule/law is enforced by a punishment, the 1st thing people do is try to break it in the same way you all thought of a black cat.
If there were people attempting to "play" the judge. I was unaware of it. Did people come up with logs, determining what judges seemed to like and not like? I certainly did not take part in that practice, and I honestly can't really see how much that would be possible. The judges that were old enough to have a system, I feel, had enough integrity to evaluate each card on an equal basis. The only part where I'd use information I gleaned from judges would be something that I'd have been intended to glean. Not that, for example, I have a fetish for Royal Assassin effects, but that most judges don't seem to feel that Armageddon can still exist in White.
Kraj/The mods did not want to spoil the memory of the FCC by turning it into a strictly run rigid contest filled with infractions and no fun.
It may have been savable a long time ago, and still might be one day but in it's current state I think it's unfair to take it out on Kraj et al for doing what they think is best.
I did not actually participate in the last three FCCs, but looking briefly over the changes of rules, I couldn't fault it. The only times I would discuss my score with a judge was so that I could try and understand to a greater extent what about my card received whatever score. It was never a demand, and always entirely courteous, always simply curious on the perspective of the judge and explaining my view. I hope that it was perceived that way, as well. I would not have had a problem with the change in the rules, baring the exception of being able to have a dialogue with my judge. Not to complain and nag, but to attain a greater understanding of my mistakes.
Who is this majority you talk of Alabran ? The majority of FCC players these days are actually newbies that started in the last 6 months- a year.
The contest evolved (I would prefer the term degenerated) quite a while a go to cope with the lack of seasoned unbiased judges and the overwhelming popularity and increased signups.
The majority I refer to is composed of (In order of posting):
MajoraX - 4 years
JeroenC - 2 years
Cantripmancer - 4 years
Phuzzy - .5 years
Emopanda - .25 years
Blackbull - 2 years
Seratonin - 2 years
Marakino - 1 year
Jaxal1 - 4 years
Motionpicture13 - 1 year
Danceofmany - .5 years
Dragoon26 - 3 years
Quazifuji - 2 years
Vishara - 4 years
Intreped - 2 years
and myself - 4 years
Two and a quarter years among us, and many of us well respected members of MTGS (if I may toot my own horn.) We don't want it to end, and we seem to outnumber those that do 3 to 1.
The only problem with your logic is that we can't possibly get any more "broken" than it is now, which is essentially "sentenced to death."
I meant what I said. If decision to kill the FCC were revoked then it would limp on for a while before dying in a much worse way. Do you honesty think that anything said here is going to convince Kraj to change his mind? And if you do, do you think that things would be as good as they ever were? If you do then you need to grow up. It's better for the FCC to end now abruptly then to stay on continual decline until nobody wants to play anymore.
Kraj/Shep/M_E, what will happen with the FCC trophies already awarded? I mean, I'm proud of mine, but two years down the road, it's not going to have the same bearing as it does to me today, as they'll feel like hangers-on/reminders of the past. I don't know if I want them gone, I don't know if I really want them...has this been discussed?
We have no intention of removing existing trophies. If an individual specifically requests their trophies be removed, I guess it would be up to the admins whether they want to do that sort of thing, but I would pass along the request.
I'll note for the general populace that both Bel and Kenaron have been tolling the death of the FCC for awhile, and while I didn't see the significant degeneration that they both imply, I'm not a mod and rarely a judge. I don't know what-all went on behind the scenes, and I'm usually pretty laid-back (until I get my personal feathers ruffled, sorry Kraj) and not terribly observant if there's no reason to be, so if there was a rot in the FCC, I must've glossed over it. The new rules struck me as a little sudden, and the end of the contest came out of the blue, for me.
But I agree with Kenaron (not just a little shamefully) that arguing the case is a little childish. The mods can't give in to mob mentality on something like this, it would ruin their credibility and tarnish our respect for them. I've never read something from Kraj or M_E and thought, "Well, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard; the mods must be crazy." (Not from Shep or AoK, either, with regard to mod-stuff, but they both came up with some crraaaaaazy round requirements. :)) Despite feeling like this decision was sudden, I've got to believe that it was long-considered and probably only made with the greatest of reluctance.
Kenaron, I'm going to challenge your statement that the FCC was guaranteed to be doomed, however. The non-mods now get a chance to see if we can do any better, and while I think it will be a little bumpy to begin with, I think we have a chance. If you'd like to come reshape the contest's future, instead of doomsaying, we'd welcome your insight. (Your's too, Bel, I just don't see you as quite as pessimistic as Kenaron has been. Your stance has seemed to have been "something's broken", not "shoot the horse in the head.")
Thanks for the clarification, Kraj. I'll give it some thought. I just wonder if I'll ever have any odd PMs from someone new to the site saying "Wow, that's a nifty set of trophies you've got there. How can I get me one of them?" and having to reply that there once was this great opportunity to have your skills recognized, but due to stupidity/greediness/who-knows-what, it's no longer there. (Edit: Please note that the "stupidity/greediness/who-knows-what" was not aimed at the mods, but at whatever series of events transpired to bring us to this end. Heck, it might have been my stupidity partially to blame.)
The mods can't give in to mob mentality on something like this, it would ruin their credibility and tarnish our respect for them.
This has already happened for me... I've known the mods, and Kraj in particular, a long time. But unless I see some specific explanations on what triggered a change of this magnitude, it's going to seem senselessly arbitrary to me.
Personally, I suspect that very thing is at the root of all the FCC's problems.
I thought the big rules change, in response to the constant complaints fomr players and mods alike about the state of the game, was the warning shot.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I implore the mods to reconsider this a few months down the line, just to give it another chance if perhaps circumstances may have changed by that point.
Level 1 DCI Judge
Check out my Commons Cube.
Not my submission, obv.
How you should approach every game of Magic.
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My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
You can still choose the card on the front page out of any card in the forum. But keep the "FCC" (maybe with some other name? but keeping the mechanics). The game is awesome, you can keep that. The winning card does not have to be featured in the front page for the game to be the fun it is.
If this needs to happen though, it needs to happen. The mods have run this for the same reason we all judge or play: they think it's a great idea and love it. But the amount of work they have to put in is incredible, especially as of late.
I'm glad the community thought up the MCC idea so fast and I will keep learning as a designer there in the future. The structure that the FCC has been able to enjoy has been awesome, and I hope that we can still keep it up.
Regardless, I'd like to say myself, and for the rest of the community if I can take the liberty of proposing such a toast, thank you to Kraj, Shepherd, Moss_Elemental, and all the past mods for your awesome and endless work on the FCC. You've had a big responsiblity in keeping this thing together, and have done a great job until the very end. Thanks as well to all the judges and players who I've seen in action as I've watched these contests month after month since 2006 and all those before my time. If anyone wishes to end here regardless of whether an MCC works out or not, I wish that you've enjoyed yourselves as well and hope you've enjoyed your run. Lastly, I've not contributed to the fostering new game, but I'd like to say and think it's quite obvious that no one will begrudge you mods in the end for this and we'll all look forward to your involvement in any way to the MCC, if you so choose.
A last hurrah to this great game, on MTGS's best subforum!
Level 1 DCI Judge
Check out my Commons Cube.
The FCC has been responsible for the majority of my participation at MTGS, especially recently. There structure of it made it a relatively easy contest to be a part of: the stickies meant I didn't have to spend time hunting for the threads and could always depend on the new threads going up on a reasonable regular schedule, and the roughly one card a week time frame was about perfect for the amount of time I had. The judging system meant I could always get tangible, useful feedback for my designs, and the competition aspect made it more rewarding when I managed to make a really great design.
I'll be sad to see it go, and I'm not sure if anything without mod organization can really replace it, although I hope that I'm wrong and look forward to the MCC.
-Douglas Adams
I understand your concerns, especially that you thought the rules changes should have served as a wake-up call. However, habits can't be so quickly and easily changed, especially when the communication about the issues wasn't entirely direct. To borrow WhisperedThunder's metaphor (elsewhere), it's as though you were thinking about breaking up with us, but instead of having a discussion about the root issues, you threw down some new rules (with a bit of explanation) and hoped that would do the trick. I'm not sure that gave FCC players a fair chance to understand, much less respond (through action) to your concerns. I saw some good things starting to come out of the changes (the timing of rounds this months due to judge deadlines has been awesome!), but they were just that, starts. I really think that with a few more tweaks, and more time, you'll see more positive results. Esepcially now that people have a better idea of what specific concerns you had and just how much they've been frustrating the mods.
An idea I've been kicking around for the past couple of days was to have one or more "judging gurus" (not a title I was thinking of, but it's what comes to mind right now, and I realize having a title for it will be helpful). The judge training thread is extremely underused. "Judging gurus" would be dedicated individuals that gave feedback to the judges on each rounds' scores, what they found positive and what they felt might be improved, or seemed inconsistent from other scores, or ideas that it seemed the judge might not have considered, whatever. What they would not do is they would not overturn scores, nor would they assign point values with their comments. The feedback is coming from a third party with no other purpose, not the player, so there is likely to be less of a defensive reaction to the critique. At the same time, in theory, the overall quality of the judging process should improve as a result. Not only will judges get useful, unbiased feedback on their judgings, but newer judges will have a bit more to go on when reading the training thread. There are several individuals who are very excellent judges and card creators, who have expressed dissatisfaction with recent judgings, but who are clearly still interested in the FCC, that I think would be excellent in this kind of role, and I suspect might even enjoy such a role (Belgareth, for one).
An idea that I came up with just now in response to the recent announcement and discussion is to split the "Rules/Discussion" thread into two threads. One would be to discuss the current open round, questions about the requirements, topics such as whether or not to shut down the FCC, etc. The other thread would include any discussion of round results. The "results" thread would not have any content "pertinent" to playing FCC, and it would be left to be self-governing. Players and judges (and mods) that don't want to get into the arguing can ignore the thread if too much drama shows up, especially since judges will still be able to get useful feedback in the judge training thread, or via PM. I'm not sure how much I like this idea myself, mostly I'm brainstorming right now. I've been on other message boards where there was a dedicated area to Flaming. It seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping too much drama out of the other threads. I'm sort of thinking of a parallel along those lines.
I guess what I'm getting at is, before you decide to give up on the FCC community alltogether, give the community an opportunity to be part of the discussion, and possibly try and meet you half way with some solutions.
Why aren't infractions an acceptable option? That's what they are there for, isn't it? Members breaking the forum rules?
Do you think you would be at least willing to sticky it?
I'd like to take a moment to express my gratitude to Kraj, Moss_Elemental, Shepherd, and AoK for all they've done for this contest. You four (specifically among many others) have been instrumental in making the game as fun as possible given what you had to work with, and I've been proud to be a part of it.
Edit:
That's funny, but dangerous. I'd hope Wizards would never go out on that limb.
Of course, when I saw the art, I thought of something completely different: Yang should have been commissioned to do this (real) card:
On a personal note, I will miss the FCC. It was the one thing that got me to join the MTGS community and be a part of it. I also got to meet many great people, and it allowed me to appreciate the game in a way even when I don't get to go out and play that much.
Still, the closure of the FCC was necessary. While it was nice to lavish such things as a trophy, mod hosting, front page showcase, winners thread, and the like, to give all these things to one contest was like giving all the nice expensive gifts to one child. In a way, we kind of spoiled it.
Does that mean this format of a contest is Dead and Gone? That's for you to decide. If you guys want to revive the contest, it is your prerogative (and one that is already taken, I see). We wish you the best of luck.
To those who understand, we thank you. To those who object, we hope you would understand in time. While the FCC was a tradition to many, being a tradition does not mean we should regard it as a sacred cow. This one is a tradition that had finally run its course.
Still, it does not mean one can look back and enjoy the good old days. However, this is the time to move forward. In a way, the end of the FCC opens the door for many other contests to achieve their dreams of stardom.
Link to current contents of Cube here.
SSC 8-Way Forum Draft
Current Pick: 1-6
Link to team assignments here.
SSC Forum Draft
Current Pick: 2-5
Link to pick here.
...
This really feels like an excessive punishment here. There were some bumps here and there, but it usually seemed to run quite smoothly. I can only think of a couple times where it really got out of hand, and even then it was still generally good natured. I implore you to reconsider.
I don't know if it's legal or not. Please mods, feel free to punish me and/or closing the post if it's out of the forum rules.
I wanna invite you and everyone to singn it here, because as almost of us think, this is the Custom Card Creation's spirit, and I don't wanna see it die.
Thanks, BB.-
Nobody is being punished. We are not taking something away to attempt to alter behavior. We are choosing to stop running a game that is not functioning the way it is wanted and intended to function.
I really don't think that is necessary. This thread is perfectly adequate for airing your feelings about the FCC, a petition is not going to change the situation, and several members have already put a replacement contest in motion. That really ought to suffice.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
You are taking away the only tangible and perceivable achievements for card creation on the internet, the one discerning aspect of these forums, and a long running tradition. It's not going to stop the game from functioning whatsoever, because we've already set up a new one. The way we behave in the new one will be no different. The only difference is the lack of a tangible reward, and in preventing them from being earnable you are effectively taking them away. You did this because some people were being more irate than you desired, and so hopefully removing the carrot will prevent that from happening. You are effectively punishing the majority because a few who acted out.
You say it is not functioning the way it is wanted and intended to function. By whom? It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of folks here wants it to function precisely the way it is, and no differently.
The "silly" rules changes were, as Kraj explained, a last-ditch effort to preserve the FCC, and it was the people who ignored them and continued to clutter the Rules/Discussion thread with complaints that "turned the contest bitter."
Your "black cat" analogy is entirely fallacious.
Infractions would not have made the contest any less fun than ending it altogether.
I would like the FCC to continue, don't get me wrong. The problem is that if the efforts to convince the mods to return to business as usual did succeed then post round complaining would be at an all time high because that behavior will have been validated. At this point, any effort to fix the FCC would only break it, so it's best to end abruptly.
From Kraj and Shepherd's tone, I think it's fair to assume it wasn't any fun for the mods without handing out infractions.
I never even implied that anyone likes handing out infractions. I simply think it's a solution that has been largely ignored here.
The only problem with your logic is that we can't possibly get any more "broken" than it is now, which is essentially "sentenced to death."
The FCC was not only a fun contest, it was a great opportunity to grow as a designer, as well as showcasing "newer" designers with real talent, such as Dumb Luck. It also created a space for good judging to be appreciated. I was very impressed by the amount of effort put into the contest by Milldawg, JqlGirl, Howler13, Vishara, and several others.
I will admit that keeping the contest going by handing out infractions could (and probably would) lead to even more hurt feelings than simply letting it die, but I feel that the potential for growth in people (even in the ones who would hypothetically receive infractions) is more than enough of a benefit to outweigh the cost.
Did you perceive it as becoming a bitter competition? I may be speaking for myself here, but the only time I've really noticed anything to that extent was when there was a confusion as to how an effect worked, the flavor, or the intended definition of a word (Casket? ;)). The one time I was personally bitter about it was my first FCC where you and I disputed over the wording of my land (which I maintain is still accurate, but I digress.) Even though the trophy was desirable, that was not the goal. For me, at least, FCC was progressing precisely as intended. I designed cards for the sake of designing, bouncing interesting ideas off judges I knew I could receive detailed criteria from. That's why I frequently posted so many off-the-wall effects (Vivid comes to mind, changing the active player at random, and manipulating the sideboard) However, it was a fun motivation to have. A dream that perhaps once I became talented enough I would have something to show for it and be proud of. Is it necessary? No. But now that dream has been taken away and I resent that.
If there were people attempting to "play" the judge. I was unaware of it. Did people come up with logs, determining what judges seemed to like and not like? I certainly did not take part in that practice, and I honestly can't really see how much that would be possible. The judges that were old enough to have a system, I feel, had enough integrity to evaluate each card on an equal basis. The only part where I'd use information I gleaned from judges would be something that I'd have been intended to glean. Not that, for example, I have a fetish for Royal Assassin effects, but that most judges don't seem to feel that Armageddon can still exist in White.
I did not actually participate in the last three FCCs, but looking briefly over the changes of rules, I couldn't fault it. The only times I would discuss my score with a judge was so that I could try and understand to a greater extent what about my card received whatever score. It was never a demand, and always entirely courteous, always simply curious on the perspective of the judge and explaining my view. I hope that it was perceived that way, as well. I would not have had a problem with the change in the rules, baring the exception of being able to have a dialogue with my judge. Not to complain and nag, but to attain a greater understanding of my mistakes.
The majority I refer to is composed of (In order of posting):
MajoraX - 4 years
JeroenC - 2 years
Cantripmancer - 4 years
Phuzzy - .5 years
Emopanda - .25 years
Blackbull - 2 years
Seratonin - 2 years
Marakino - 1 year
Jaxal1 - 4 years
Motionpicture13 - 1 year
Danceofmany - .5 years
Dragoon26 - 3 years
Quazifuji - 2 years
Vishara - 4 years
Intreped - 2 years
and myself - 4 years
Two and a quarter years among us, and many of us well respected members of MTGS (if I may toot my own horn.) We don't want it to end, and we seem to outnumber those that do 3 to 1.
Shame that this isn't a democracy.
I meant what I said. If decision to kill the FCC were revoked then it would limp on for a while before dying in a much worse way. Do you honesty think that anything said here is going to convince Kraj to change his mind? And if you do, do you think that things would be as good as they ever were? If you do then you need to grow up. It's better for the FCC to end now abruptly then to stay on continual decline until nobody wants to play anymore.
We have no intention of removing existing trophies. If an individual specifically requests their trophies be removed, I guess it would be up to the admins whether they want to do that sort of thing, but I would pass along the request.
Let's try to avoid making this personal, please.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
But I agree with Kenaron (not just a little shamefully) that arguing the case is a little childish. The mods can't give in to mob mentality on something like this, it would ruin their credibility and tarnish our respect for them. I've never read something from Kraj or M_E and thought, "Well, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard; the mods must be crazy." (Not from Shep or AoK, either, with regard to mod-stuff, but they both came up with some crraaaaaazy round requirements. :)) Despite feeling like this decision was sudden, I've got to believe that it was long-considered and probably only made with the greatest of reluctance.
Kenaron, I'm going to challenge your statement that the FCC was guaranteed to be doomed, however. The non-mods now get a chance to see if we can do any better, and while I think it will be a little bumpy to begin with, I think we have a chance. If you'd like to come reshape the contest's future, instead of doomsaying, we'd welcome your insight. (Your's too, Bel, I just don't see you as quite as pessimistic as Kenaron has been. Your stance has seemed to have been "something's broken", not "shoot the horse in the head.")
Thanks for the clarification, Kraj. I'll give it some thought. I just wonder if I'll ever have any odd PMs from someone new to the site saying "Wow, that's a nifty set of trophies you've got there. How can I get me one of them?" and having to reply that there once was this great opportunity to have your skills recognized, but due to stupidity/greediness/who-knows-what, it's no longer there. (Edit: Please note that the "stupidity/greediness/who-knows-what" was not aimed at the mods, but at whatever series of events transpired to bring us to this end. Heck, it might have been my stupidity partially to blame.)
This has already happened for me... I've known the mods, and Kraj in particular, a long time. But unless I see some specific explanations on what triggered a change of this magnitude, it's going to seem senselessly arbitrary to me.