I don't know if you are a reader of Mark Rosewater, his famous blogatog page, but lately he got the (for me crazy) position that blue should get extra combat step before white simply because it needs more splashier effects than white and blue can mess any phase. Now I think it feels completely wrong to give blue extra combats despite the nature of extra turns give also extra combats, exactly how is wrong that green should recur specifically instant and sorceries from the grave despite having the Eternal Witness effect, so that's why I want to prove that the Head Designer of Magic is completely wrong here design and color pie wise and you can do plenty of splashy and interesting designs in blue messing with the phases without touching specifically combat or even specifically avoiding it. Here some examples:
Another Chance 2UU
Sorcery - M
Take an extra turn after this. Skip the combat phase of that turn.
One More Time - UU
Sorcery - R
Cast this spell only in your turn.
Choose a non-combat, non-untap phase. After this main phase, there is an additional chosen phase.
Temporal Erasure 1UU
Instant - R
Target player skip his next step or phase.
Temporal Reversion UUU
Enchantment - Aura - M
Enchant Player
The phases of enchanted player are reversed
Time Sphere 2U
Artifact - R
At the beginning of each of your phases, Scry 1 (the phases are beginning, first main, combat, second main, ending)
The problem is not the lack of design space. Is the lack of imagination of some designers.
It's not a lack of design space or imagination. It's a lack of valid design space. All of your proposed cards are reasonable designs. But I can't imagine any of them being printed.
Another chance, a cheaper time warp that misses the least valuable step is just a cheaper time warp. Not really valid design space. Maybe with extra restrictions and or bonuses to find a balance but over all missing combat isn't worth a full mana off a normal extra turn spell.
One more time. You need to know the difference between steps and phases. There's not much value here. It's an interesting concept but when trying to actually play with it, it doesn't really do anything.
Temporal Erasure. While possibly the most interesting design it also will cause the most problems among players. I could see such a card in a masters set but doesn't open much design space.
Temporal reversion, Topsy Turvy. It's not valid design space.
Time Sphere, This causes far too much scrying. This would slow any game to a crawl which isn't good design.
It's easy to look at any problem and find solutions. However, valid solutions are a lot harder to find than is apparent.
thanks for the reply. I hope that we at least agree that is nonsense from MaRo to specifically give blue extra combat steps simply because it got extra turn spells. About my proposed design I have to observe the followings:
Another Chance : In a current creature-centric world, skipping the combat is far from being the least valuable step. If anything I would give this to the upkeep or end step phase. I do agree however that the mana cost could be more restrictive, like 1UUU for example, but in an eternal world it doesn't make much sense that a strictly worse Time Warp cost exactly like a Time Warp (yes, we have strictly better cards all the time but usually at commons, hardly at mythic power level)
One More Time : Probably not worded in the best way, but the intended result is that this card can get you an additional upkeep or draw step, main phase or end phase. How it doesn't do anything? At the very least it does always give you an extra card cycling herself in the worst case scenario, which makes anyway this mechanic far more versatile to stuff, let's say, proliferate, that is very specific and yet very beloved from johnny players of all kind. This is also a card that makes johnny's happy, scream weird shenaningans all over.
Temporal Erasure : I agree is pushed power level wise but at the right cost I believe this design is perfectly fine. As you said, it's also important to distinguish if it's a standard or supplemental card.
Temporal Reversion : I would like to remind you that many silver-bordered designs that in the beginning sounded absurd (The Cheese Stand Alone / Barren Glory as the most famous example) made it in black border years later so yours is not a valid objection. This effect is perfectly doable digitally and within the magic rules, it's just a very bold design but that doesn't make it per se invalid design space and I would argue that stuff like stickers were much, much more problematic and made it black border anyway. That said, I see this design more in a Modern Horizon set for his complexity. Actually it targets only one player exactly to reduce the board complexity.
Time Sphere : ok how about this then "At the beginning of each phase, you can reveal the top of your library. if it's an instant or sorcery spell, you can add it to your hand." that would resolve the time issue. Of course that makes it much more powerful, so probably would be worth costing something like 3UU probably.
I don't like blue getting only additional combat phases. It feels very awkward. If they're going to commit to this though, it won't be so awkward after five or ten years. I might feel differently then.
Another Chance, a card not being problematic to print doesnt make it good to print. If you don't want to put Time Warp in a set. Time Warp without the combat step doesn't seem like something you want in the set either. If you don't want time warp in a set the only phase that you can skip that makes it meaningfully different is the beginning phase or untap step.
One More Time, With the move away from upkeep to precombat main phase for triggers getting an additional phase is extremely hard to get value out of beyond draw a card. How many times can such a card be printed with slight tweaks?
Temporal Erasure,
Temporal Revision, effecting all players would make it a more reasonable effect. I guarantee you that 9 out of 10 players won't understand the significance of moving the end step to the start of your turn. This is the kind of design that I would love to be done but know it can't be because the player base doesn't know enough about how the game functions to play it correctly.
Time Sphere, doing anything every phase is going to grind the game to a halt. The scrying was just extra egregious. A card that triggers 5 times a turn takes up a lot of time and mental space. Then there's extra trouble of making players declare their combat and post combat main phase when they have no attackers.
"I don't like blue getting only additional combat phases. It feels very awkward. If they're going to commit to this though, it won't be so awkward after five or ten years. I might feel differently then."
I don't feel this is a very meaningful observation because it could be literally extended to any color pie mistake WotC could do in the long term.
"Time Warp without the combat step doesn't seem like something you want in the set either."
How about for example a set Planeswalker focused? That would make this variant something very desirable in the set that is within, without being actually broken outside said contexts.
"One More Time, With the move away from upkeep to precombat main phase for triggers getting an additional phase is extremely hard to get value out of beyond draw a card"
As I said, proliferate is a whole build-around mechanic and players have no problems to enjoy mechanics that are literally doing nothing alone and this doesn't do nothing alone. This is a card for constructed, not limited, and like proliferate, it literally begs to be builded around her (and in constructed is trivially easy to fill a deck with relevant upkeep or end phase triggers benefical for you).
"Temporal Revision, effecting all players would make it a more reasonable effect. "
I'm not convinced of that, affecting all players would just 100% guarantee that one or more players have no idea what they have to do on their turn. At least this version is more likely to be played 99% on yourself for obvious benefits in deckbuilding (so you know pretty well what you are doing). Another johnny card.
"Time Sphere, doing anything every phase is going to grind the game to a halt. The scrying was just extra egregious. A card that triggers 5 times a turn"
No, this time the grinding and triggering is completely hypotethical. As long the top card is not an instant or sorcery the card doesn't do nothing, and unlike scry, you just wanna pick the instant/sorcery in hand 99% of times for card advantage, so no time consuming in this aspect either. Also the turn you cast it, you get only up to 3 triggers, just more if it doesn't get destroyed meanwhile. Mayve I could just make the reveal and add to hand mandatory actions just to be sure it will and must be quick anyway, but seems a bit overzealous to me.
Blue getting extra combat steps isn't undermining its weakness. So while I don't like it I'm not staunchly opposed. Stretching the color pie to new places can be good for the game even if it feels strange at first. Breaking the color pie is never good. If this change proves bad in the future I will continue to be opposed to it but if it proves valuable I'm willing to alter my stance.
Even in a planewalker heavy set. If Time Warp wasn't wanted in the sent Time Warp minus combat step wouldn't be wanted. I could be wrong but I don't see it being wanted.
Extra phases, cards like this already exist. They aren't played much. Making more isn't a bad idea but it's not as deep a well as you seem to think. Your comparison to Proliferate, an amazing mechanic, shows a deep lacking in understanding of mechanics in general. The added versatility of getting your choice of phase/step isn't a huge win. It's more a detriment as it will have to increase the cost.
The reason affecting all players would be more reasonable is because you don't have to deal with two whole turns occuring inbetween end phases. Which is where the vast majority of problems will occur. One player understanding how it works while the other is clueless isn't a good design either. It leaves one player sitting there wondering if they are being cheated.
A trigger being easily missed or ignored doesn't mean it isn't happening. In fact, it's all the more reason to consider it a bad design.
I think time sphere would be ok if it lets you scry every upkeep.
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The best things that I think can be done with this is, "relocate the draw step" and "siphon steps and phases" (whenever an opponent skips a step or phase, you gain an additional one of those steps or phases before your first one during your next turn".
The issue with a lot of these are that a lot of players don't know what is or isn't a step or a phase.
Case in point: Your card One More Time asks a player to choose "Choose a non-combat, non-untap phase." but Untap a step of the beginning phase, not a phase, meaning the player either can only choose the Main Phase or End Phase, or the can choose the Beginning Phase and get their untaps.
Blue getting extra combat phases doesn't seem too out of the pie, I rather see those than full extra turn spells. Maybe blues version could be not untapping your whole board but maybe just one creature or you having to set it up in some with to use the extra attacks while red (and white!) can do massive untapping.
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Another Chance 2UU
Sorcery - M
Take an extra turn after this. Skip the combat phase of that turn.
One More Time - UU
Sorcery - R
Cast this spell only in your turn.
Choose a non-combat, non-untap phase. After this main phase, there is an additional chosen phase.
Temporal Erasure 1UU
Instant - R
Target player skip his next step or phase.
Temporal Reversion UUU
Enchantment - Aura - M
Enchant Player
The phases of enchanted player are reversed
Time Sphere 2U
Artifact - R
At the beginning of each of your phases, Scry 1 (the phases are beginning, first main, combat, second main, ending)
The problem is not the lack of design space. Is the lack of imagination of some designers.
Another chance, a cheaper time warp that misses the least valuable step is just a cheaper time warp. Not really valid design space. Maybe with extra restrictions and or bonuses to find a balance but over all missing combat isn't worth a full mana off a normal extra turn spell.
One more time. You need to know the difference between steps and phases. There's not much value here. It's an interesting concept but when trying to actually play with it, it doesn't really do anything.
Temporal Erasure. While possibly the most interesting design it also will cause the most problems among players. I could see such a card in a masters set but doesn't open much design space.
Temporal reversion, Topsy Turvy. It's not valid design space.
Time Sphere, This causes far too much scrying. This would slow any game to a crawl which isn't good design.
It's easy to look at any problem and find solutions. However, valid solutions are a lot harder to find than is apparent.
Another Chance : In a current creature-centric world, skipping the combat is far from being the least valuable step. If anything I would give this to the upkeep or end step phase. I do agree however that the mana cost could be more restrictive, like 1UUU for example, but in an eternal world it doesn't make much sense that a strictly worse Time Warp cost exactly like a Time Warp (yes, we have strictly better cards all the time but usually at commons, hardly at mythic power level)
One More Time : Probably not worded in the best way, but the intended result is that this card can get you an additional upkeep or draw step, main phase or end phase. How it doesn't do anything? At the very least it does always give you an extra card cycling herself in the worst case scenario, which makes anyway this mechanic far more versatile to stuff, let's say, proliferate, that is very specific and yet very beloved from johnny players of all kind. This is also a card that makes johnny's happy, scream weird shenaningans all over.
Temporal Erasure : I agree is pushed power level wise but at the right cost I believe this design is perfectly fine. As you said, it's also important to distinguish if it's a standard or supplemental card.
Temporal Reversion : I would like to remind you that many silver-bordered designs that in the beginning sounded absurd (The Cheese Stand Alone / Barren Glory as the most famous example) made it in black border years later so yours is not a valid objection. This effect is perfectly doable digitally and within the magic rules, it's just a very bold design but that doesn't make it per se invalid design space and I would argue that stuff like stickers were much, much more problematic and made it black border anyway. That said, I see this design more in a Modern Horizon set for his complexity. Actually it targets only one player exactly to reduce the board complexity.
Time Sphere : ok how about this then "At the beginning of each phase, you can reveal the top of your library. if it's an instant or sorcery spell, you can add it to your hand." that would resolve the time issue. Of course that makes it much more powerful, so probably would be worth costing something like 3UU probably.
Another Chance, a card not being problematic to print doesnt make it good to print. If you don't want to put Time Warp in a set. Time Warp without the combat step doesn't seem like something you want in the set either. If you don't want time warp in a set the only phase that you can skip that makes it meaningfully different is the beginning phase or untap step.
One More Time, With the move away from upkeep to precombat main phase for triggers getting an additional phase is extremely hard to get value out of beyond draw a card. How many times can such a card be printed with slight tweaks?
Temporal Erasure,
Temporal Revision, effecting all players would make it a more reasonable effect. I guarantee you that 9 out of 10 players won't understand the significance of moving the end step to the start of your turn. This is the kind of design that I would love to be done but know it can't be because the player base doesn't know enough about how the game functions to play it correctly.
Time Sphere, doing anything every phase is going to grind the game to a halt. The scrying was just extra egregious. A card that triggers 5 times a turn takes up a lot of time and mental space. Then there's extra trouble of making players declare their combat and post combat main phase when they have no attackers.
I don't feel this is a very meaningful observation because it could be literally extended to any color pie mistake WotC could do in the long term.
"Time Warp without the combat step doesn't seem like something you want in the set either."
How about for example a set Planeswalker focused? That would make this variant something very desirable in the set that is within, without being actually broken outside said contexts.
"One More Time, With the move away from upkeep to precombat main phase for triggers getting an additional phase is extremely hard to get value out of beyond draw a card"
As I said, proliferate is a whole build-around mechanic and players have no problems to enjoy mechanics that are literally doing nothing alone and this doesn't do nothing alone. This is a card for constructed, not limited, and like proliferate, it literally begs to be builded around her (and in constructed is trivially easy to fill a deck with relevant upkeep or end phase triggers benefical for you).
"Temporal Revision, effecting all players would make it a more reasonable effect. "
I'm not convinced of that, affecting all players would just 100% guarantee that one or more players have no idea what they have to do on their turn. At least this version is more likely to be played 99% on yourself for obvious benefits in deckbuilding (so you know pretty well what you are doing). Another johnny card.
"Time Sphere, doing anything every phase is going to grind the game to a halt. The scrying was just extra egregious. A card that triggers 5 times a turn"
No, this time the grinding and triggering is completely hypotethical. As long the top card is not an instant or sorcery the card doesn't do nothing, and unlike scry, you just wanna pick the instant/sorcery in hand 99% of times for card advantage, so no time consuming in this aspect either. Also the turn you cast it, you get only up to 3 triggers, just more if it doesn't get destroyed meanwhile. Mayve I could just make the reveal and add to hand mandatory actions just to be sure it will and must be quick anyway, but seems a bit overzealous to me.
Even in a planewalker heavy set. If Time Warp wasn't wanted in the sent Time Warp minus combat step wouldn't be wanted. I could be wrong but I don't see it being wanted.
Extra phases, cards like this already exist. They aren't played much. Making more isn't a bad idea but it's not as deep a well as you seem to think. Your comparison to Proliferate, an amazing mechanic, shows a deep lacking in understanding of mechanics in general. The added versatility of getting your choice of phase/step isn't a huge win. It's more a detriment as it will have to increase the cost.
The reason affecting all players would be more reasonable is because you don't have to deal with two whole turns occuring inbetween end phases. Which is where the vast majority of problems will occur. One player understanding how it works while the other is clueless isn't a good design either. It leaves one player sitting there wondering if they are being cheated.
A trigger being easily missed or ignored doesn't mean it isn't happening. In fact, it's all the more reason to consider it a bad design.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
The best things that I think can be done with this is, "relocate the draw step" and "siphon steps and phases" (whenever an opponent skips a step or phase, you gain an additional one of those steps or phases before your first one during your next turn".
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StaffCase in point: Your card One More Time asks a player to choose "Choose a non-combat, non-untap phase." but Untap a step of the beginning phase, not a phase, meaning the player either can only choose the Main Phase or End Phase, or the can choose the Beginning Phase and get their untaps.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"