Immaculate Dragon3WW Creature — Dragon
Flying
Immaculate Dragon has protection from the colors and card types of the first and the last spell cast this turn. W: Untap Immaculate Dragon. If it's attacking or blocking, remove it from combat.
3/5
Here's a reprise of a prized concept of mine from the beginning of my Magic creation era. I really wanted to do some kind of "super mannered uber dragon". One that defines the nature of the dragon as it's so conventionally projected. It was as a I recall a mess though, and certainly didn't live up to any of the desires (flavor, uniqueness, utility) that I had for it. This one seeks redemption. The effect provides a loophole as protection wears off at the end of each turn, which would open the creature up to activated and triggered abilities; as well as combat potentially.
Æther Runes3 Tribal Artifact — Wall Equipment
As long as equipped creature is a Wall, it gets +2/+2. Otherwise, it gets -4/-4.
Each other creature you control has all abilities of equipped creature except defender.
Whenever a Wall enters the battlefield, you may attach Æther Runes to it.
Equip 4
Here's another from the concept of tribal equipments based on unloved creature types. I felt like Wall would be such an evocative one to do. There's so much creative potential surrounding walls, and that they exist as cards with definitely drawbacks makes it all the more dynamic. Slivers had been thrown on the table but was dismissed by me almost immediately as being too cliche, and off support for what Slivers would really want (cheap universal enchantments that they can all boon off of).
Ironically, what would be the most cliche effect for slivers becomes one of the most dynamic effects for walls. And could foreshadow a future design for some Wall of Slivers maybe if so desired. With so much potential for abuse here, I knew there would have to be a way to limit the utility, and that's where I implemented the super mirror Enfeeblement effect. Basic creatures that attempt to take on the runes are immensely weakened by it, instantly killing most, while still enabling some cool interactions for creatures in the higher mana curves. This design would still be a bit toxic with Wall of Denial, and where the advent of Disarm could only maybe help where implemented into spells (as well as creatures). But otherwise, could create an "engineering challenge" to extend artifact destruction better across the colors.
Alright, first, how do you think immaculate dragon's protection ability should work? Allow me to elaborate. I start the turn. It has no protection. Opponent cast Doom blade does the dragon gain protection in time to prevent it being killed by Doom blade? Additionally, DB is on the stack. Opponent casts Omen of the Forge. Does my dragon have protection from red enchantments or black instants? Will it change after Omen resolves? These are some of the simpler questions your dragon warrants.
Aether runes, while sharing all abilities has some complications let's ignore them. This is way too cheap. +4/+4 on its own is over the top for this cost. 4 to cast and 4 to equip looks reasonable based on other cards.
The dragon is undercosted. A 4/4 flyer that can't be killed by a spell unless your opponent has a spell of a different type and color that they can cast at instant speed in response to that spell is too strong and should be in the 6ish mana range.
At least you didn't stick changeling on it.
It weirdly worded. You can just say "As long as equipped creature is a Wall, it gets +4/+4. Otherwise, it gets -4/-4." Gift of fangs already does this type of effect. There are, however, enough effects that let defenders attack that a +4/+4 equipment needs to cost a lot more.
Blanket granting abilities as this does is problematic with layers and characteristic defining effects and a host of other things, to say nothing of having multiples of these in play at a time. That's not to say it doesn't work, it just doesn't work as cleanly as the wording leads you to believe and will lead to misplaying and misunderstanding in games.
It will be the last spell cast, but will cascade with the stack.
If you cast Doom Blade, it will gain protection from black and from instants, making it an illegal target for Doom Blade; but then you cast Omen of the Forge over it, and this changes the protection to red and enchantments; and that's the one that will last off the stack.
There's no other reasonable way to do this than Special Action. Otherwise, the selection of targets and sandwiching of the abilities on the stack become convoluted.
+4/+4 is only for Walls, and creatures with Changeling of course.
My concern was to swap the costs. That destroys the linear element of the cycle, although that's not a problem depending on the set this goes through.
No doubt there's going to be crazy potential beyond the humble Wall of Razors.
I never doubted this needed to cost more, but it's still an incredibly thin line to draw between utility outside of ubers, and leaving the invested power to removal. Originally, the boon/enfeeblement was +2/+2 // -2/-2, but I decided that still wasn't enough when you consider hexproof.
I think where it's at now is where it wants to be.
Comparing Immaculate Dragon to Baneslayer Angel, I think the protection is pretty contrastive to the whole of keyword soup, so this cost is also where it wants to be.
It will be the last spell cast, but will cascade with the stack.
If you cast Doom Blade, it will gain protection from black and from instants, making it an illegal target for Doom Blade; but then you cast Omen of the Forge over it, and this changes the protection to red and enchantments; and that's the one that will last off the stack.
See, what does this mean? The rest of your words were quite coherent and made sense but then you tack on these words that might not mean anything but could imply a variety of meanings. So I'll ask again to clarify. Of the stated scenarios, in which, if any, will the dragon die to Doom Blade?
Also, your ability to compare abilities is garbage. Neither of your cards are appropriately costed for any avenue of printing.
It will be the last spell cast, but will cascade with the stack.
If you cast Doom Blade, it will gain protection from black and from instants, making it an illegal target for Doom Blade; but then you cast Omen of the Forge over it, and this changes the protection to red and enchantments; and that's the one that will last off the stack.
See, what does this mean? The rest of your words were quite coherent and made sense but then you tack on these words that might not mean anything but could imply a variety of meanings. So I'll ask again to clarify. Of the stated scenarios, in which, if any, will the dragon die to Doom Blade?
Also, your ability to compare abilities is garbage. Neither of your cards are appropriately costed for any avenue of printing.
Yes, he explained his answer wrong, but the answer he gave is accurate: Omen of the Forge was the last spell that was cast so the creature has protection from Red and from Instants when the Doom Blade tries to resolve and thus is a legal target. Its an overly complicated static ability, but it works as written.
Immaculate Dragon can't die to Doom Blade when it resolves because you have to be able to designate the targets for Doom Blade before priority passes to put anything else on the stack; which Immaculate Dragon can't be targeted since Doom Blade is currently the last spell cast; effectively giving Immaculate Dragon protection from black and from instants.
It's like a softened shroud, that's not shroud since there's the intriguing loophole for activated and triggered abilities; as well as combat.
Immaculate Dragon can't die to Doom Blade when it resolves because you have to be able to designate the targets for Doom Blade before priority passes to put anything else on the stack; which Immaculate Dragon can't be targeted since Doom Blade is currently the last spell cast; effectively giving Immaculate Dragon protection from black and from instants.
It's like a softened shroud, that's not shroud since there's the intriguing loophole for activated and triggered abilities; as well as combat.
A spells targets have to be legal when it is cast and when it resolves. In the example above, I can legally target it in order to cast the Doom Blade because it has no protection against Black or Instants until I have actually cast the Doom Blade. If I then cast the Omen, the creature will have protection from Red and Enchantments at the time the Doom Blade resolves, meaning it is still a legal target despite the protection it had during the interval between.
Okay, well, this is what I was going by. After declaring the spell, the proposal constitutes it as cast, where Immaculate Dragon should gain protection as a Special Action, so that where the player begins to pay costs and choose targets, Immaculate Dragon is no longer a legal target for Doom Blade (cause it gained protection as a Special Action at the declaration of Doom Blade).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c
Okay, well, this is what I was going by. After declaring the spell, the proposal constitutes it as cast, where Immaculate Dragon should gain protection as a Special Action, so that where the player begins to pay costs and choose targets, Immaculate Dragon is no longer a legal target for Doom Blade (cause it gained protection as a Special Action at the declaration of Doom Blade).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c
You know the term is Special Action becuase it is not meant to be used often thus making it SPECIAL, not a type of action you want to have in 99% of your cards like you do....you really think the game would be fun at all if all is special actions and beyond the rules or ambigous timing casting/activations?
No doubt there's going to be crazy potential beyond the humble Wall of Razors.
I never doubted this needed to cost more, but it's still an incredibly thin line to draw between utility outside of ubers, and leaving the invested power to removal. Originally, the boon/enfeeblement was +2/+2 // -2/-2, but I decided that still wasn't enough when you consider hexproof.
I think where it's at now is where it wants to be.
Comparing Immaculate Dragon to Baneslayer Angel, I think the protection is pretty contrastive to the whole of keyword soup, so this cost is also where it wants to be.
I'm ok with the stats increasing as is kinda meaningless in a Wall equipped as you mostly want it to share that walls ability, but the -4/-4 is what mantains this card balanced preventing it from equipping other nonwall broken stuff....so it is OK.
Actually protection from color and card type is way stronger that pro-dragons and demons as its niche is bigger.
I'm noticing that you overstimate keyword soups a little too much.
Okay, well, this is what I was going by. After declaring the spell, the proposal constitutes it as cast, where Immaculate Dragon should gain protection as a Special Action, so that where the player begins to pay costs and choose targets, Immaculate Dragon is no longer a legal target for Doom Blade (cause it gained protection as a Special Action at the declaration of Doom Blade).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack.
The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c
I'm glad you're finally using rules text to back up your arguments. However, look at your card and the entire process of casting a spell.
601.2e The game checks to see if the proposed spell can legally be cast
601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed, effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as it’s cast are applied, then the spell becomes cast.
The proposal to cast a spell does not constitute casting the spell. Your dragon gains protection at 601.2i when the spell is officially "cast". While target legality is checked back at 601.2e.
Now that we covered those basic questions let's move on to the next obvious question. How do you think this ability should handle copies of spells? If Walk the Plank is cast on a creature. Then Twincast copies it. The copy should be allowed to target and kill Immaculate Dragon. Is this your intent?
If not, then it sounds like you want an ability closer to "Immaculate Dragon has protection from the last card on top of the stack."
If we can skip the formalities, since it doesn't work as intended and the rules just do a bad job of explaining the process designations;
changing the timing parameter should give this the same effect without having to do anything else
"from the colors and card types of the last spell declared this turn"
First in will count for targets, while the first out will also count for targets while being the colors and types that stick.
EDIT: This should also still allow the loopholes as intended, where in the case of Twincast, the copy of Walk the Plank will be able to target Immaculate Dragon; which will gain protection from blue and from instants due to Twincast, but since the copy of Walk the Plank is copied and placed directly on the stack, it's not declared, and thus slipstreams the protection ability and is able to target Immaculate Dragon.
However, there is a bit of an inconsistency here, given that targets are chosen during the declaration process (as you cast the spell). So how can a copy choose these targets if it's bypassing this step? The game has to separate them into [as you copy a spell]. Thus, if this gets called [the declaration of a copy], we are back at square one; and I would suggest that the card text would need to be updated to include "the last spell or copy of a spell declared this turn" for coherence.
I would just suggest separating them indefinitely and officially calling that process (as you copy a spell or ability), [the issuance of a copy].
EDIT: Another way to fix this maybe would be to say "protection from colors and card types of the the first and the last spell cast this turn".
However, there is a bit of an inconsistency here, given that targets are chosen during the declaration process (as you cast the spell). So how can a copy choose these targets if it's bypassing this step?
Your failure to understand is not an inconsistency. In fact it's the only constant across your threads. Changing targets is simply an action that can be performed outside of the spell being cast. Which is why Shunt can exist.
Also, since it worked originally, just not exactly how you wanted. why not keep it the way it was. 70-80% of the time it functioned as you wanted.
I was suggesting that the comprehensive rulings don't have a means to litigate special cases where something would be copied, without being cast, and the copy would need its targets chosen before it goes onto the stack. The order of operations doesn't support this currently, and therein becomes the inconsistency.
In any case, I think "the first and the last" adaptation is the best way to solve the puzzle. I do think that the power will need to be dialed down some, to make it less swingy, and help to preserve continuance of the game; since it will have protection from creatures very often. It needs to be less swingy even.
Public Mod Note
(rowanalpha):
You've been warned about trying to argue how the rules "should" work. Next time ask for feeback about how to word the card so that it does what you want instead of saying the rules should change.
Creature — Dragon
Flying
Immaculate Dragon has protection from the colors and card types of the first and the last spell cast this turn.
W: Untap Immaculate Dragon. If it's attacking or blocking, remove it from combat.
3/5
Here's a reprise of a prized concept of mine from the beginning of my Magic creation era. I really wanted to do some kind of "super mannered uber dragon". One that defines the nature of the dragon as it's so conventionally projected. It was as a I recall a mess though, and certainly didn't live up to any of the desires (flavor, uniqueness, utility) that I had for it. This one seeks redemption. The effect provides a loophole as protection wears off at the end of each turn, which would open the creature up to activated and triggered abilities; as well as combat potentially.
Æther Runes 3
Tribal Artifact — Wall Equipment
As long as equipped creature is a Wall, it gets +2/+2. Otherwise, it gets -4/-4.
Each other creature you control has all abilities of equipped creature except defender.
Whenever a Wall enters the battlefield, you may attach Æther Runes to it.
Equip 4
Here's another from the concept of tribal equipments based on unloved creature types. I felt like Wall would be such an evocative one to do. There's so much creative potential surrounding walls, and that they exist as cards with definitely drawbacks makes it all the more dynamic. Slivers had been thrown on the table but was dismissed by me almost immediately as being too cliche, and off support for what Slivers would really want (cheap universal enchantments that they can all boon off of).
Ironically, what would be the most cliche effect for slivers becomes one of the most dynamic effects for walls. And could foreshadow a future design for some Wall of Slivers maybe if so desired. With so much potential for abuse here, I knew there would have to be a way to limit the utility, and that's where I implemented the super mirror Enfeeblement effect. Basic creatures that attempt to take on the runes are immensely weakened by it, instantly killing most, while still enabling some cool interactions for creatures in the higher mana curves. This design would still be a bit toxic with Wall of Denial, and where the advent of Disarm could only maybe help where implemented into spells (as well as creatures). But otherwise, could create an "engineering challenge" to extend artifact destruction better across the colors.
Aether runes, while sharing all abilities has some complications let's ignore them. This is way too cheap. +4/+4 on its own is over the top for this cost. 4 to cast and 4 to equip looks reasonable based on other cards.
At least you didn't stick changeling on it.
It weirdly worded. You can just say "As long as equipped creature is a Wall, it gets +4/+4. Otherwise, it gets -4/-4." Gift of fangs already does this type of effect. There are, however, enough effects that let defenders attack that a +4/+4 equipment needs to cost a lot more.
Blanket granting abilities as this does is problematic with layers and characteristic defining effects and a host of other things, to say nothing of having multiples of these in play at a time. That's not to say it doesn't work, it just doesn't work as cleanly as the wording leads you to believe and will lead to misplaying and misunderstanding in games.
If you cast Doom Blade, it will gain protection from black and from instants, making it an illegal target for Doom Blade; but then you cast Omen of the Forge over it, and this changes the protection to red and enchantments; and that's the one that will last off the stack.
There's no other reasonable way to do this than Special Action. Otherwise, the selection of targets and sandwiching of the abilities on the stack become convoluted.
+4/+4 is only for Walls, and creatures with Changeling of course.
My concern was to swap the costs. That destroys the linear element of the cycle, although that's not a problem depending on the set this goes through.
I never doubted this needed to cost more, but it's still an incredibly thin line to draw between utility outside of ubers, and leaving the invested power to removal. Originally, the boon/enfeeblement was +2/+2 // -2/-2, but I decided that still wasn't enough when you consider hexproof.
I think where it's at now is where it wants to be.
Comparing Immaculate Dragon to Baneslayer Angel, I think the protection is pretty contrastive to the whole of keyword soup, so this cost is also where it wants to be.
Also, your ability to compare abilities is garbage. Neither of your cards are appropriately costed for any avenue of printing.
Yes, he explained his answer wrong, but the answer he gave is accurate: Omen of the Forge was the last spell that was cast so the creature has protection from Red and from Instants when the Doom Blade tries to resolve and thus is a legal target. Its an overly complicated static ability, but it works as written.
It's like a softened shroud, that's not shroud since there's the intriguing loophole for activated and triggered abilities; as well as combat.
A spells targets have to be legal when it is cast and when it resolves. In the example above, I can legally target it in order to cast the Doom Blade because it has no protection against Black or Instants until I have actually cast the Doom Blade. If I then cast the Omen, the creature will have protection from Red and Enchantments at the time the Doom Blade resolves, meaning it is still a legal target despite the protection it had during the interval between.
That’s how the ability you wrote works.
You know the term is Special Action becuase it is not meant to be used often thus making it SPECIAL, not a type of action you want to have in 99% of your cards like you do....you really think the game would be fun at all if all is special actions and beyond the rules or ambigous timing casting/activations?
Yeah but people won't start running Wall of Razors for your card, they'll kill a lot of people with Electrostatic Field though.
I'm ok with the stats increasing as is kinda meaningless in a Wall equipped as you mostly want it to share that walls ability, but the -4/-4 is what mantains this card balanced preventing it from equipping other nonwall broken stuff....so it is OK.
Actually protection from color and card type is way stronger that pro-dragons and demons as its niche is bigger.
I'm noticing that you overstimate keyword soups a little too much.
The proposal to cast a spell does not constitute casting the spell. Your dragon gains protection at 601.2i when the spell is officially "cast". While target legality is checked back at 601.2e.
Now that we covered those basic questions let's move on to the next obvious question. How do you think this ability should handle copies of spells? If Walk the Plank is cast on a creature. Then Twincast copies it. The copy should be allowed to target and kill Immaculate Dragon. Is this your intent?
If not, then it sounds like you want an ability closer to "Immaculate Dragon has protection from the last card on top of the stack."
changing the timing parameter should give this the same effect without having to do anything else
"from the colors and card types of the last spell declared this turn"
First in will count for targets, while the first out will also count for targets while being the colors and types that stick.
EDIT: This should also still allow the loopholes as intended, where in the case of Twincast, the copy of Walk the Plank will be able to target Immaculate Dragon; which will gain protection from blue and from instants due to Twincast, but since the copy of Walk the Plank is copied and placed directly on the stack, it's not declared, and thus slipstreams the protection ability and is able to target Immaculate Dragon.
However, there is a bit of an inconsistency here, given that targets are chosen during the declaration process (as you cast the spell). So how can a copy choose these targets if it's bypassing this step? The game has to separate them into [as you copy a spell]. Thus, if this gets called [the declaration of a copy], we are back at square one; and I would suggest that the card text would need to be updated to include "the last spell or copy of a spell declared this turn" for coherence.
I would just suggest separating them indefinitely and officially calling that process (as you copy a spell or ability), [the issuance of a copy].
EDIT: Another way to fix this maybe would be to say "protection from colors and card types of the the first and the last spell cast this turn".
Also, since it worked originally, just not exactly how you wanted. why not keep it the way it was. 70-80% of the time it functioned as you wanted.
I was suggesting that the comprehensive rulings don't have a means to litigate special cases where something would be copied, without being cast, and the copy would need its targets chosen before it goes onto the stack. The order of operations doesn't support this currently, and therein becomes the inconsistency.
In any case, I think "the first and the last" adaptation is the best way to solve the puzzle. I do think that the power will need to be dialed down some, to make it less swingy, and help to preserve continuance of the game; since it will have protection from creatures very often. It needs to be less swingy even.