Praetor's Bauble Artifact — Equipment 0 : Praetor's Bauble becomes a copy of target creature except it retains all its types and abilities and can't attack or block. Exile Praetor's Bauble at the end of your next turn, then draw a card.
If Praetor's Bauble is equipped to a creature, replace all instances of card names in its text box with "equipped creature".
Equip
Lore Card
"You are the purest bred of the most basic form. A dramatic revelation to be learning this way; a mistake you will never get the chance to learn from." ―Elesh Norn
Praetor's Bauble0 Artifact — Equipment 0 : Praetor's Bauble becomes a copy of target creature except it retains all its types and abilities and can't attack or block. Exile Praetor's Bauble at the end of your next turn.
If Praetor's Bauble is equipped to a creature, replace all instances of card names in its text box with "equipped creature".
Equip
I do not at all understand the point of this card and what its intended use is. Can you elaborate?
"If Praetor's Bauble is equipped to a creature, replace all instances of card names in its text box with "equipped creature"." causes a logical self-referential loop because it replaces its own text of "Praetor's Bauble" with "equipped creature." I have no idea how that is supposed to resolve.
I think it's supposed to let you copy a creature that is then turned into an equipment with that creature's abilities. At least that's what I think it's supposed to imply.
Wow… I don’t think you’ve ever made such a non-functional card… which is really saying something from you.
1. This creates uncomfortable situations where characteristic-defining abilities (such as lhyrgoyf and MaRo) directly conflict with each other, which the rules can sorta handle through timestamps but not in a neat and intuitive way.
2. This is a free and colorless way to go infinite with crackdown construct and this effect definitely shouldn’t be free.
3. The second ability affects the first ability (ie: “0: equipped creature becomes a copy of target creature…)”, which means that you can turn the bauble into something, equip it to each of your creatures, and turn each of your creatures into a copy of it as well (as the copy activated ability will remain even after it is re-equipped).
3.5: just realized that if you equip before activating, the bauble will even survive at end of turn as “exile the bauble” will be replaced with “exile the creature”, which likely isn’t the intent (especially as you could just throw this onto a disposable creature token for all of 1 mana or 2 life per turn).
4. making the card retain its abilities is a much bigger headache than you likely expect as it also means that you keep the copied abilities from all previous activations this turn. Now, this creature and each of your creatures can ALL become copies of ALL of your creatures.
5. It gets even worse. You know how a card with haste given riot by rhythm of the wild can technically gain haste twice, the original Lazarus can get hexproof twice if it copies a card with hexproof, and Mairsil the Pretender can use a caged quicksilver elemental to get infinite activations per turn as each use of the quicksilver elemental effectively gives Mairsil a new identical copy of all of its own activated abilities (letting it bypass the once per turn limit)? If you copy a celestial crusader with this ability and then activate it again targeting the same crusader, it doesn’t lose the first set of copied abilities for the reasons listed above. Instead, it will have flying, flash, and split second twice (all useless) and two separate instances of pumping white creatures +1/+1, which stack with itself. If you copy a creature with good static abilities or triggered abilities infinite times, you instantly win the game.
6. Putting it all together, though, we can get a bit more efficient in breaking the game. Combining points 3 and 5, we can have a creature copy itself infinitely, doubling all of its abilities each time because your “retains its abilities” line literally stops the effect from replacing one set of copied values with another.
Seriously, though, learn the rules of the game before you make yourself look dumb. If the rules of the game, your creative intent, and the mechanics you write do not align, you have failed in your design.
I believe you're talking about the potential loop that you can create by equipping it first then using the ability. That's cute and all, but shouldn't cause too many problems as that copy still can't attack or block (even if it's exiled instead of Praetor's Bauble). LUL it's like Relinquished or Thousand Eyes Restrict as a Magic card.
The intention of this design was to make something contingent with the Phyrexian theme going strong right now—with All Will Be One on the horizon. I noticed some of the designs there have parasitic undertones to their concept and flavor. Venser for example, appears to be trapped within a Corpse Flower, which is a parasitic plant that's become subject to horizontal gene transfer due to invading grape vines so tremendously. There's kind of a horizontal gene transfer aspect going here. It's part parasitic, but potentially mutualism, yet all in the vein of symbiosis.
No issues with the permanent being exiled (if anyone was wondering);
706.11 If an effect refers to a permanent by name, the effect still tracks that permanent even if it changes names or becomes a copy of something else.
Given this is supposed to be a bauble, I tried to stay on template with the zero cost. From the very beginning, I had seconded a colorless Phyrexian mana symbol though. That is—representing 2 or 2 life.
I was mostly referring to the loop that allowing a creature to retain its abilities means that using the ability again doesn’t cause the new copied traits to replace old copied traits as you likely intended (there’s a reason cards like Lazav have to single out each and every specific ability that they won’t lose when copying something instead of saying that it “retains its abilities”).
One of your creatures can copy the abilities of all other creatures simultaneously as copying one creature doesn’t cause you to lose abilities from a prior one.
One of your creatures can also copy a single creature multiple times to get multiple identical copies of its ability. Quicksilver elemental is an example of a card that can already give itself multiple copies of a triggered ability from a single source (which is used in Mairsil decks).
Because of that first loop, you can give all of your creatures infinite copies of the abilities of all creatures.
Logically, copy should replace the original instance. It wouldn't/shouldn't stack the abilities. Quicksilver does because it "gains" the abilities, it doesn't become a copy. I think the loophole you're talking about is that this "technically" retains its types and abilities. Even though, I don't think comp rules exist that define exactly what this means in this case. It only says that, in a certain case, certain abilities/parameters are lost if the exception defines or contradicts their existence.
706.9d When applying a copy effect that doesn’t copy a certain characteristic, retains an original value for a certain characteristic, or modifies the final value of a certain characteristic, any characteristic-defining ability (see rule 604.3) of the object being copied that defines that characteristic is not copied. If that characteristic is color, any color indicator (see rule 204) of that object is also not copied.
Given this, a ruling such as [706.9x] could be created to define that [when a copy effect says except it retains its types, abilities, or other credentials, it only retains its base attributes this way unless the effect says otherwise].
I do remember having this same issue (or similar issue) with Silver Cult King awhile back.
We could just say retains its "base types and abilities"—if it would be ruled out to hammer comp rules instead.
The effect is oookay, but entirely dependent on an external source to do anything.
The fact that it exiles removes dies triggers, and prevents triggers like persist (kinda sadge).
I tried putting the phyrexian symbol up there to see how it looks. It's cool in style and theory, but in practice, this will definitely brick with a cost like that. Using it to copy a mana ability in case theory. 2 life isn't worth one mana, plus the spot it occupies in the deck. At 0, it's just worth its spot in the deck. Like it or not, this is a real factor when it comes to limbo purgatory effects and 0 cost spells.
The effect is oookay, but entirely dependent on an external source to do anything.
The fact that it exiles removes dies triggers, and prevents triggers like persist (kinda sadge).
I tried putting the phyrexian symbol up there to see how it looks. It's cool in style and theory, but in practice, this will definitely brick with a cost like that. Using it to copy a mana ability in case theory. 2 life isn't worth one mana, plus the spot it occupies in the deck. At 0, it's just worth its spot in the deck. Like it or not, this is a real factor when it comes to limbo purgatory effects and 0 cost spells.
No You can sacrifice it, or blink it or return it to the hand and it won't be exiled, as long as you do it before the end of the next turn (So this gives you around 3 turns to do it)
Any clone effect cost around 3 to 4 mana.
1 mana for 2 life is actually a really cheap price (Looks at Krrik players drop themselves to 1 digits to combo off or do broken stuff in early turns)
You have any idea of how broken phyrexian mana is? A LOT
ZERO COST spells are often than not considered too powerful, nothing limbo thingy whatever that means
Conditional clone effects cost 2all day long. And they are never so limited that you can't attack or block. This would reduce the average card, without any time-lapse, to a single mana (for the materialism value only). We know that with baubles this doesn't exist—due to the limbo/purgatory nature of their abilities.
One of the things I was considering before was the presence of absence of cantrip card draw here. I wasn't against breaking the mold and doing something totally unique here. Obviously, for the effect that it has, throwing a card draw on it tips the scales at 0. However, it intrigues me to add the phyrexian mana to the cost if-and-when the resolution of the exile effect adds a card draw to it. This then reflects the element of experimentation, study, strategy, pioneering, innovation, revelation, conquer, and champion. Elements that seem to envelop the Praetor's existence and their exploits.
Conditional clone effects cost 2all day long. And they are never so limited that you can't attack or block. This would reduce the average card, without any time-lapse, to a single mana (for the materialism value only). We know that with baubles this doesn't exist—due to the limbo/purgatory nature of their abilities.
One of the things I was considering before was the presence of absence of cantrip card draw here. I wasn't against breaking the mold and doing something totally unique here. Obviously, for the effect that it has, throwing a card draw on it tips the scales at 0. However, it intrigues me to add the phyrexian mana to the cost if-and-when the resolution of the exile effect adds a card draw to it. This then reflects the element of experimentation, study, strategy, pioneering, innovation, revelation, conquer, and champion. Elements that seem to envelop the Praetor's existence and their exploits.
Please prescribe the drugs you are on coz they seem to be very powerful
Professional Formulas: Serotonin Dopamine Liquescence (Daily); Nerve Drainage Liquescence (Night) (Cycled); Neuro Recover Liquescence (Night) (Cycled); Brain Enhancement Liquescence (Night) (Cycled). Sport Nutrition & Vitamins: Muscle Maker Plus (Daily); Nutra Direct: DHT Blocker Gummies (Night). Universal Nutrition: Super Cuts 3 (Active Days). Finaflex: Pure Stamina (Active Days); Now Foods: Garlic Oil Gels (Spot Application); Oregano Oil (Spot Application); for gut bacteria tapering/eliminating. Various Brands: EAA Aminos (Active Days or Daily for Brain/Metabolism Boost); Cytosport Muscle Milk (Daily and/or Before Bed); Equate: Complete Multivitamin Adults (One Half, Breakfast/Lunch/Before Bed); California Gold Nutrition Colostrum (One Teaspoon, Breakfast/Lunch/Before Bed).
That's about everything. It doesn't include energy drinks, which can have nootropics in them (such as Alpha GPC or ElevATP). Raze; Ryse; Beyond Raw LIT; Beyond Raw Burn MF; Oxyshred; Ghost; Bang; Monster; Red Bull; GFuel; Uptime; etc.
If we could discuss the card now that it has a casting cost. I'm all for biting the bullet on copying mana abilities, and only getting your mana floated if it can cantrip you a card. It's that great compromise, but done with fair trade. I still think the other way is a little better, because it's more restrictive and limited without a card draw. But this way is still certainly exciting, with great incentives to be worth its place in the deck.
Gitaxian Probe was banned specifically because it could be cast for no mana and drew a card, effectively reducing your deck size by four by playing a playset.
Phyrexian Mana is inherently problematic and you haven’t actually solved your power level issue but actually made it worse with you change.
Damn, you turned a card that was a complicated 10 into an obvious 11. If you remove all of the text except the part that makes all of your creatures a slow cantrip it's still a powerful card. All that extra text is gravy.
Nevermind, the only relevant text is 0:Draw a card at the end of your next turn.
Usually it's difficult to make cards that over shadow game breaking cards like Necropotence. But you just straight up removed the life payment, mana cost and skipping your draw step. You have a bunch of irrelevant text hiding this super Necropotence but once you peel that text away its frighteningly broken in its simplicity.
Nevermind, the only relevant text is 0:Draw a card at the end of your next turn.
Because Reap definitely won’t understand this complaint, let me lay it out for him.
seasoned pyromancer tells you to discard 2 cards, then draw 2 cards. If you play seasoned pyromancer with no cards in your hand, you are unable to discard cards but you still draw 2 cards. If they only wanted you to draw if you have a full 2 cards to discard, it would have said “Discard two cards. If you do, draw two cards”.
Your card’s ability ends with “Exile this card, then draw a card”. If this ability goes on the stack several times and only gets exiled once, you are still going to draw several cards because you did not use the language “Exile this card. If you do, draw a card”.
We all know your intent. Your failure to clearly convey your intent in a way that follows the rules of the game is bad.
Clearly, the context of [exile this card, then draw a card] should mean exactly the thing as you're suggesting it doesn't. You can only follow the entire instruction as it's present. Thus, draw a card after a card has been exiled. The context of [If you do] is provided because there's an option of doing so or not. Thus, the context provides direction between the possible instructions of being chosen or not.
There are reasons why this is NOT Gitaxian Probe, Necropotence, (or Greed—for that matter). The primary being that this is reliant of their being a creature present to do anything. If there's not, then you can't activate the ability. Furthermore, considering removal, if this card is not present to be exiled from the battlefield, you cannot draw any cards. The third being that this is a singular non-repeatable instance by itself. Requiring more resource to repeat it (and costing 2 or 2 life) makes it combo material, but that's not broken (or a crime) until you factor in that you're allowing players to endlessly mulligan until they have the cards they want. Why not just let them start each game with seven cards of their choice in their hand? Why waste all that time shuffling?
I honestly feel like you're blowing this out of proportion. It is still a good card, with good utility, but not broken. Very useful. Lots of combo potential. But not broken. You know I saw a video on Twitter today that might explain what imaginary MTGverse of gaming you all come from. A man discards like 7 cards from his hand to use Gix's ability, then gets shafted with a grey shield. hpv. What amazing nursing home games exist out there.
In competitive Magic, you can't just afford to lose the extra 2 life in addition to whatever other life you're losing to fetchland/shockland/mana fix/free removal spell. You can't afford to just add creatures to your non-creature deck because immensely they will get in the way and adulterate your entire basis of consistency.
I still kinda prefer the original version, but truth be told, I think the casting cost and card draw is more important.
In competitive Magic, you can't just afford to lose the extra 2 life in addition to whatever other life you're losing to fetchland/shockland/mana fix/free removal spell. You can't afford to just add creatures to your non-creature deck because immensely they will get in the way and adulterate your entire basis of consistency.
No, in fact the exact opposite is true. In competitive magic you will gladly pay 2 life on top of the life spent on fetchlands/shocklands/mana fix/free removal spell. You have 20 and only need 1 to win. And you will gladly twist your deck design to accommodate broken cards. This has been proven over and over. Stick to your nonsense buzz words because the moment you try to speak objectively you're patently wrong.
Artifact — Equipment
0 : Praetor's Bauble becomes a copy of target creature except it retains all its types and abilities and can't attack or block. Exile Praetor's Bauble at the end of your next turn, then draw a card.
If Praetor's Bauble is equipped to a creature, replace all instances of card names in its text box with "equipped creature".
Equip
Lore Card
"You are the purest bred of the most basic form. A dramatic revelation to be learning this way; a mistake you will never get the chance to learn from."
―Elesh Norn
Artifact — Equipment
0 : Praetor's Bauble becomes a copy of target creature except it retains all its types and abilities and can't attack or block. Exile Praetor's Bauble at the end of your next turn.
If Praetor's Bauble is equipped to a creature, replace all instances of card names in its text box with "equipped creature".
Equip
"If Praetor's Bauble is equipped to a creature, replace all instances of card names in its text box with "equipped creature"." causes a logical self-referential loop because it replaces its own text of "Praetor's Bauble" with "equipped creature." I have no idea how that is supposed to resolve.
1. This creates uncomfortable situations where characteristic-defining abilities (such as lhyrgoyf and MaRo) directly conflict with each other, which the rules can sorta handle through timestamps but not in a neat and intuitive way.
2. This is a free and colorless way to go infinite with crackdown construct and this effect definitely shouldn’t be free.
3. The second ability affects the first ability (ie: “0: equipped creature becomes a copy of target creature…)”, which means that you can turn the bauble into something, equip it to each of your creatures, and turn each of your creatures into a copy of it as well (as the copy activated ability will remain even after it is re-equipped).
3.5: just realized that if you equip before activating, the bauble will even survive at end of turn as “exile the bauble” will be replaced with “exile the creature”, which likely isn’t the intent (especially as you could just throw this onto a disposable creature token for all of 1 mana or 2 life per turn).
4. making the card retain its abilities is a much bigger headache than you likely expect as it also means that you keep the copied abilities from all previous activations this turn. Now, this creature and each of your creatures can ALL become copies of ALL of your creatures.
5. It gets even worse. You know how a card with haste given riot by rhythm of the wild can technically gain haste twice, the original Lazarus can get hexproof twice if it copies a card with hexproof, and Mairsil the Pretender can use a caged quicksilver elemental to get infinite activations per turn as each use of the quicksilver elemental effectively gives Mairsil a new identical copy of all of its own activated abilities (letting it bypass the once per turn limit)? If you copy a celestial crusader with this ability and then activate it again targeting the same crusader, it doesn’t lose the first set of copied abilities for the reasons listed above. Instead, it will have flying, flash, and split second twice (all useless) and two separate instances of pumping white creatures +1/+1, which stack with itself. If you copy a creature with good static abilities or triggered abilities infinite times, you instantly win the game.
6. Putting it all together, though, we can get a bit more efficient in breaking the game. Combining points 3 and 5, we can have a creature copy itself infinitely, doubling all of its abilities each time because your “retains its abilities” line literally stops the effect from replacing one set of copied values with another.
Seriously, though, learn the rules of the game before you make yourself look dumb. If the rules of the game, your creative intent, and the mechanics you write do not align, you have failed in your design.
The intention of this design was to make something contingent with the Phyrexian theme going strong right now—with All Will Be One on the horizon. I noticed some of the designs there have parasitic undertones to their concept and flavor. Venser for example, appears to be trapped within a Corpse Flower, which is a parasitic plant that's become subject to horizontal gene transfer due to invading grape vines so tremendously. There's kind of a horizontal gene transfer aspect going here. It's part parasitic, but potentially mutualism, yet all in the vein of symbiosis.
No issues with the permanent being exiled (if anyone was wondering);
Given this is supposed to be a bauble, I tried to stay on template with the zero cost. From the very beginning, I had seconded a colorless Phyrexian mana symbol though. That is—representing 2 or 2 life.
One of your creatures can copy the abilities of all other creatures simultaneously as copying one creature doesn’t cause you to lose abilities from a prior one.
One of your creatures can also copy a single creature multiple times to get multiple identical copies of its ability. Quicksilver elemental is an example of a card that can already give itself multiple copies of a triggered ability from a single source (which is used in Mairsil decks).
Because of that first loop, you can give all of your creatures infinite copies of the abilities of all creatures.
Given this, a ruling such as [706.9x] could be created to define that [when a copy effect says except it retains its types, abilities, or other credentials, it only retains its base attributes this way unless the effect says otherwise].
I do remember having this same issue (or similar issue) with Silver Cult King awhile back.
We could just say retains its "base types and abilities"—if it would be ruled out to hammer comp rules instead.
Just the occupancy of a card constitutes some weight and gravity and cost.
That is not how costing in Magic Works, this is not Yugioh.
Give me a better reasoning
The effect is oookay, but entirely dependent on an external source to do anything.
The fact that it exiles removes dies triggers, and prevents triggers like persist (kinda sadge).
I tried putting the phyrexian symbol up there to see how it looks. It's cool in style and theory, but in practice, this will definitely brick with a cost like that. Using it to copy a mana ability in case theory. 2 life isn't worth one mana, plus the spot it occupies in the deck. At 0, it's just worth its spot in the deck. Like it or not, this is a real factor when it comes to limbo purgatory effects and 0 cost spells.
No You can sacrifice it, or blink it or return it to the hand and it won't be exiled, as long as you do it before the end of the next turn (So this gives you around 3 turns to do it)
Any clone effect cost around 3 to 4 mana.
1 mana for 2 life is actually a really cheap price (Looks at Krrik players drop themselves to 1 digits to combo off or do broken stuff in early turns)
You have any idea of how broken phyrexian mana is? A LOT
ZERO COST spells are often than not considered too powerful, nothing limbo thingy whatever that means
One of the things I was considering before was the presence of absence of cantrip card draw here. I wasn't against breaking the mold and doing something totally unique here. Obviously, for the effect that it has, throwing a card draw on it tips the scales at 0. However, it intrigues me to add the phyrexian mana to the cost if-and-when the resolution of the exile effect adds a card draw to it. This then reflects the element of experimentation, study, strategy, pioneering, innovation, revelation, conquer, and champion. Elements that seem to envelop the Praetor's existence and their exploits.
Please prescribe the drugs you are on coz they seem to be very powerful
That's about everything. It doesn't include energy drinks, which can have nootropics in them (such as Alpha GPC or ElevATP). Raze; Ryse; Beyond Raw LIT; Beyond Raw Burn MF; Oxyshred; Ghost; Bang; Monster; Red Bull; GFuel; Uptime; etc.
If we could discuss the card now that it has a casting cost. I'm all for biting the bullet on copying mana abilities, and only getting your mana floated if it can cantrip you a card. It's that great compromise, but done with fair trade. I still think the other way is a little better, because it's more restrictive and limited without a card draw. But this way is still certainly exciting, with great incentives to be worth its place in the deck.
Phyrexian Mana is inherently problematic and you haven’t actually solved your power level issue but actually made it worse with you change.
Nevermind, the only relevant text is 0:Draw a card at the end of your next turn.
Usually it's difficult to make cards that over shadow game breaking cards like Necropotence. But you just straight up removed the life payment, mana cost and skipping your draw step. You have a bunch of irrelevant text hiding this super Necropotence but once you peel that text away its frighteningly broken in its simplicity.
Because Reap definitely won’t understand this complaint, let me lay it out for him.
seasoned pyromancer tells you to discard 2 cards, then draw 2 cards. If you play seasoned pyromancer with no cards in your hand, you are unable to discard cards but you still draw 2 cards. If they only wanted you to draw if you have a full 2 cards to discard, it would have said “Discard two cards. If you do, draw two cards”.
Your card’s ability ends with “Exile this card, then draw a card”. If this ability goes on the stack several times and only gets exiled once, you are still going to draw several cards because you did not use the language “Exile this card. If you do, draw a card”.
We all know your intent. Your failure to clearly convey your intent in a way that follows the rules of the game is bad.
There are reasons why this is NOT Gitaxian Probe, Necropotence, (or Greed—for that matter). The primary being that this is reliant of their being a creature present to do anything. If there's not, then you can't activate the ability. Furthermore, considering removal, if this card is not present to be exiled from the battlefield, you cannot draw any cards. The third being that this is a singular non-repeatable instance by itself. Requiring more resource to repeat it (and costing 2 or 2 life) makes it combo material, but that's not broken (or a crime) until you factor in that you're allowing players to endlessly mulligan until they have the cards they want. Why not just let them start each game with seven cards of their choice in their hand? Why waste all that time shuffling?
I honestly feel like you're blowing this out of proportion. It is still a good card, with good utility, but not broken. Very useful. Lots of combo potential. But not broken. You know I saw a video on Twitter today that might explain what imaginary MTGverse of gaming you all come from. A man discards like 7 cards from his hand to use Gix's ability, then gets shafted with a grey shield. hpv. What amazing nursing home games exist out there.
In competitive Magic, you can't just afford to lose the extra 2 life in addition to whatever other life you're losing to fetchland/shockland/mana fix/free removal spell. You can't afford to just add creatures to your non-creature deck because immensely they will get in the way and adulterate your entire basis of consistency.
I still kinda prefer the original version, but truth be told, I think the casting cost and card draw is more important.
Phyrexian Fleshgorger Creepy Puppeteer Monastery Swiftspear Shivan Devastator
Play with Fire Lightning Strike Vampire's Kiss
Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
This has also been tried, tested, and proven.
What point are you making exactly?