You card would make the deck immediately more consistent at getting cards into the GY even if they Force of Will the creature.
Learn about the game you want to design for or you may as well be making cars with square wheels.
You must really be on a trip when you have one example to entirely discredit a design.
It supports an archtype...but can you prove that it breaks it? Is Landless Dredge going to be unstoppable? No.
That is your argument right? But it's not absolute to the favorable condition that it wants to have.
You just want to be able to claim it does without contest. Yet another, shameful cheap pass attempt.
Do you have anything unconditional to support this is broken? Especially in the new form—without being biased, subjective, or conditional?
No, that was just one argument. Honestly your card, as written, would overpower a number of strategies because, as was said earlier, it both puts a free code instant speed threat on the board and fills the graveyard at the same time. This will likely develop strategies around it with little trouble because, if your opponent doesn’t have a 1-2 mana answer, they will be taking multiple hits and you still gain your gy advantage
Either A) a card is not problematic in the established meta ofANY formats where it would (hypothetically) be legal OR B) it is problematic. Whatever you wish would be the case, this is very much a true dichotomy. While some cards can be more problematic than others and being a real card does not mean that it is not problematic (Ragavan, for example) and there is no meaningful space between.
1) If a card has even one competitive archetype in one format that is greatly enhanced beyond its current power by the creation of a card, that card is problematic. Likewise, if a card forms an infinite combo (or overwhelmingly strong interaction), even if you feel that it would not appear at casual tables or that people shouldn't use it... it's still a problematic card. What matters is how people COULD use it, not how you feel people SHOULD.
2) IF a card or effect cannot be meaningfully answered by interaction commonly played in any of the formats (or is meaningfully answered by cards not in the competitive meta *cough*innocent blood*cough*), that card is problematic. A card that forces other decks to play interaction that they would not otherwise be playing is referred to as warping the meta, which is problematic.
You produce a high number of problematic cards. Other people seem adept at producing cards that are not problematic.
If that was the case, you'd think Thespian's Stage wouldn't have seen print. Due to how toxic it would be with Dark Depths. A two-card instant win as land drops. Low and behold it—it was printed anyways. Even at best, this is a "Let the Timmys have their day in the sun".
If I had created something like this, certainly I can't imagine how I could reason against it. The aspect of challenge is simply too abysmal.
But that is not case—especially now.
This is quite the second-rating when you appraise the Magic team for being so faultless, yet the evidence shows favoritism and unjust privilege must be about.
(Demonic Attorney), bias holds no domain in the world of compassion—and morality. Forwarding the notion once again to end this case.
If that was the case, you'd think Thespian's Stage wouldn't have seen print. Due to how toxic it would be with Dark Depths. A two-card instant win as land drops. Low and behold it—it was printed anyways. Even at best, this is a "Let the Timmys have their day in the sun".
1. As I said in my previous post, the fact that a card was printed does not automatically mean that it is not problematic. Saying “Wizards has made worse cards” is not an excuse for producing problematic cards.
2. Problematic cards only exist within the context of play. Looking at your example, what format does Thespian stage cause problems in? In what major deck archetype does Thespian stage cause problems? Whereas we can point to a specific existent archetype that sees play for your Sengir, there is no place where Thespian stage causes disruption.
No one ever said the magic team was faultless, they just make broken combos once in a blue moon and out of thousands of cards each year. You do it every post.
Thespians Stage was (a) printed into a standard set where is saw effectivly 0 competitive play and (b) was only broken in Legacy where Dark Depths already had Vampire Hexmage to trigger it, so it only shifted the deck from trying to get out depths and hexmage to depths and stage, so it shifted the deck's focus but didn't make it faster or more consistent.
You card could not be printed into a standard set, because it would create too much variance of people effectively winning off a turn 1 play without them also printing significantly more efficient removal than normal and it would make the legacy dredge decks (possibly modern too) both faster and more consistent at the same time.
Wizards is fine printing new cards that might have strong interactions with very old ones, because they serve the current set well and old formats can simply ban the cards when they become an issue. You aren't creating this and balancing if for the needs of a whole set or standard environment, you're just making a card that would be overpowered and warping printed anywhere.
But here, let me tweak your card in a way that preserves the Timmy-ness of a big beatstick creature with a wonky alternative cost in a way that isn't going to warp the game.
Baron Sengir the Pitch Black 4BBB
Legendary Creature — Vampire Noble
You may may cast CARDNAME from your graveyard by exiling three Black cards from your hand and paying 6 life instead of paying CARDNAME's mana cost.
Flying, first strike, ward - discard a card
BBB: Exile another target Vampire. Return it to the battlefield tapped at the beginning of the next end step with a lifelink counter on it.
5/5
Now it doesn't fuel Dredge because the cards get exiled and it doesn't present an answer-or-lose threat on turn 1 so it won't warp the meta around the need for super cheap powerful creature removal. And, since is doesn't drop on turn 1, there was room to add ward and still be balanced. Lastly, the exile ability can only target other Vamps (for balance) and returns at end of turn (for consistency with how every other blink effect works) with a lifelink counter (to synergize with the recast ability). Made it a Noble too for flavor.
You fool! Have you forgotten that a vampire could not be noble by definition and that citizens would refuse to acknowledge the nobility of a being once they become a vampire, ignoring the fact that nobility may not have the same connotations on other planes that it does in our own history and that a vampire or demon running a society may force the common folk to refer to it and treat it as a noble under threat of death because Wizards certainly didn’t use the term “noble” as a simple synonym of “aristocrat” (as many do) with fewer letters so it could be more easily fit in a typeline.
You could just exile the cards instead of discarding them: Force of Sengir. No, it couldn't be in a standard set, but it wouldn't be too bad in a format with decent removal. But then again, considering commander damage, that allows you to knock an enemy off the table in a fast and unfun way. It's all balanced around how high-risk it is to play. It's really just best to keep this out of reach of the first turn.
Baron Sengir the Pitch Black4BBB
Legendary Creature — Vampire Noble
If you control at least three swamps, you may pay 6 life and discard 3 black cards from your hand instead of paying Sengir's mana cost.
Flying, first strike, flash BBB: Exile target Vampire. Return it to the battlefield tapped at the beginning of the next end step.
5/5
That way you can let it protect itself, and even give it the flash. By the time you have three lands, three cards is a tough cost, and mana-less dredge isn't touching it. Nevertheless, it could still be a potent commander, and even go in standard. Discarding the cards can have real uses, but paying 6 life on turn three is no joke.
Sephara, Sky's Blade is a decent reference. You don't have to be quite so conservative as that for the alt cost, since the body is more toned down. But it's worth note that this is shoved as far away from turn one as possible. Another reference for nearly free fatties: Gurmag Angler/ Tombstalker.
I'm actually going to disagree with rowan and Rosy.
I think the printing of Thespian's Stage gave Legacy Lands an instant win it didn't have before. It was another extremely powerful tool in a toolbox that was already brimming with them. I think that (along with other meta changes) helped push Lands off of its incremental value plan - the cycling and threshold lands and Gamble that synergise with Life From the Loam from forever ago, and Sylvan Library. Today, I don't think that many lists are even maindecking Punishing Fire.
Is it a 'problem'? I'm not sure. Legacy's got a lot of powerful stuff. Arguably it's Crop Rotation that's the busted part.
But the thing we agree on is, whether Stage is over the line or not, one busted card or combo shouldn't be an excuse to print more.
Private Mod Note
():
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"Did you think to kill me? There's no flesh and blood within this cloak to kill. There is only an idea. Ideas are bulletproof." - V, V for Vendetta. Alan Moore
I'm actually going to disagree with rowan and Rosy.
I think the printing of Thespian's Stage gave Legacy Lands an instant win it didn't have before. It was another extremely powerful tool in a toolbox that was already brimming with them. I think that (along with other meta changes) helped push Lands off of its incremental value plan - the cycling and threshold lands and Gamble that synergise with Life From the Loam from forever ago, and Sylvan Library. Today, I don't think that many lists are even maindecking Punishing Fire.
Is it a 'problem'? I'm not sure. Legacy's got a lot of powerful stuff. Arguably it's Crop Rotation that's the busted part.
But the thing we agree on is, whether Stage is over the line or not, one busted card or combo shouldn't be an excuse to print more.
While Crop Rotation is powerful, the problem card was Dark Depths from the beginning because its the common denominator in all the combos. Hexmage, Stage, Solemnity, etc are all generally fine otherwise.
Got an update for Volrath's Dark Underground. I've removed the Phyrexian mana ability as I've felt that the flavor was better appropriated elsewhere. The ability is very selective, and not very synergistic together with the mana ability. Even if, not healthy synergy. I honestly see it only able to use one or the other, which although isn't really bad, isn't in good tastes by my standards.
I'm going to float that other ability over to another legendary land,
The Praetor's Secret Chamber Legendary Land
You may pay 1 life instead of 2 for the first Phyrexian mana you pay for with life each turn.
, Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control: Add CC to your mana pool. You lose 1 life.
, Remove a counter from target creature: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. If you control that permanent, you gain 1 life. Otherwise, you lose 1 life.
Got an update for Volrath's Dark Underground. I've removed the Phyrexian mana ability as I've felt that the flavor was better appropriated elsewhere. The ability is very selective, and not very synergistic together with the mana ability. Even if, not healthy synergy. I honestly see it only able to use one or the other, which although isn't really bad, isn't in good tastes by my standards.
I'm going to float that other ability over to another legendary land,
The Praetor's Secret Chamber Legendary Land
You may pay 1 life instead of 2 for the first Phyrexian mana you pay for with life each turn.
, Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control: Add CC to your mana pool. You lose 1 life.
, Remove a counter from target permanent: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. If you control that permanent, you gain 1 life. Otherwise, you lose 1 life.
We have such sights to show you.
Wait a minute... You, the person who proclaims yourself great at making flavor text, just cribbed a quote wholesale from Hellraiser? What is this world coming to. Tsk tsk.
Okay, decided to reduce it to just creatures. It makes little sense including other permanents (aside from Planeswalker) just for the additional interactivity, when there's no flavor behind that at all here.
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You must really be on a trip when you have one example to entirely discredit a design.
It supports an archtype...but can you prove that it breaks it? Is Landless Dredge going to be unstoppable? No.
That is your argument right? But it's not absolute to the favorable condition that it wants to have.
You just want to be able to claim it does without contest. Yet another, shameful cheap pass attempt.
Do you have anything unconditional to support this is broken? Especially in the new form—without being biased, subjective, or conditional?
No, that was just one argument. Honestly your card, as written, would overpower a number of strategies because, as was said earlier, it both puts a free code instant speed threat on the board and fills the graveyard at the same time. This will likely develop strategies around it with little trouble because, if your opponent doesn’t have a 1-2 mana answer, they will be taking multiple hits and you still gain your gy advantage
Either A) a card is not problematic in the established meta of ANY formats where it would (hypothetically) be legal OR B) it is problematic. Whatever you wish would be the case, this is very much a true dichotomy. While some cards can be more problematic than others and being a real card does not mean that it is not problematic (Ragavan, for example) and there is no meaningful space between.
1) If a card has even one competitive archetype in one format that is greatly enhanced beyond its current power by the creation of a card, that card is problematic. Likewise, if a card forms an infinite combo (or overwhelmingly strong interaction), even if you feel that it would not appear at casual tables or that people shouldn't use it... it's still a problematic card. What matters is how people COULD use it, not how you feel people SHOULD.
2) IF a card or effect cannot be meaningfully answered by interaction commonly played in any of the formats (or is meaningfully answered by cards not in the competitive meta *cough*innocent blood*cough*), that card is problematic. A card that forces other decks to play interaction that they would not otherwise be playing is referred to as warping the meta, which is problematic.
You produce a high number of problematic cards. Other people seem adept at producing cards that are not problematic.
If I had created something like this, certainly I can't imagine how I could reason against it. The aspect of challenge is simply too abysmal.
But that is not case—especially now.
This is quite the second-rating when you appraise the Magic team for being so faultless, yet the evidence shows favoritism and unjust privilege must be about.
(Demonic Attorney), bias holds no domain in the world of compassion—and morality. Forwarding the notion once again to end this case.
1. As I said in my previous post, the fact that a card was printed does not automatically mean that it is not problematic. Saying “Wizards has made worse cards” is not an excuse for producing problematic cards.
2. Problematic cards only exist within the context of play. Looking at your example, what format does Thespian stage cause problems in? In what major deck archetype does Thespian stage cause problems? Whereas we can point to a specific existent archetype that sees play for your Sengir, there is no place where Thespian stage causes disruption.
Thespians Stage was (a) printed into a standard set where is saw effectivly 0 competitive play and (b) was only broken in Legacy where Dark Depths already had Vampire Hexmage to trigger it, so it only shifted the deck from trying to get out depths and hexmage to depths and stage, so it shifted the deck's focus but didn't make it faster or more consistent.
You card could not be printed into a standard set, because it would create too much variance of people effectively winning off a turn 1 play without them also printing significantly more efficient removal than normal and it would make the legacy dredge decks (possibly modern too) both faster and more consistent at the same time.
Wizards is fine printing new cards that might have strong interactions with very old ones, because they serve the current set well and old formats can simply ban the cards when they become an issue. You aren't creating this and balancing if for the needs of a whole set or standard environment, you're just making a card that would be overpowered and warping printed anywhere.
But here, let me tweak your card in a way that preserves the Timmy-ness of a big beatstick creature with a wonky alternative cost in a way that isn't going to warp the game.
Baron Sengir the Pitch Black 4BBB
Legendary Creature — Vampire Noble
You may may cast CARDNAME from your graveyard by exiling three Black cards from your hand and paying 6 life instead of paying CARDNAME's mana cost.
Flying, first strike, ward - discard a card
BBB: Exile another target Vampire. Return it to the battlefield tapped at the beginning of the next end step with a lifelink counter on it.
5/5
Now it doesn't fuel Dredge because the cards get exiled and it doesn't present an answer-or-lose threat on turn 1 so it won't warp the meta around the need for super cheap powerful creature removal. And, since is doesn't drop on turn 1, there was room to add ward and still be balanced. Lastly, the exile ability can only target other Vamps (for balance) and returns at end of turn (for consistency with how every other blink effect works) with a lifelink counter (to synergize with the recast ability). Made it a Noble too for flavor.
You fool! Have you forgotten that a vampire could not be noble by definition and that citizens would refuse to acknowledge the nobility of a being once they become a vampire, ignoring the fact that nobility may not have the same connotations on other planes that it does in our own history and that a vampire or demon running a society may force the common folk to refer to it and treat it as a noble under threat of death because Wizards certainly didn’t use the term “noble” as a simple synonym of “aristocrat” (as many do) with fewer letters so it could be more easily fit in a typeline.
Baron Sengir the Pitch Black 4BBB
Legendary Creature — Vampire Noble
If you control at least three swamps, you may pay 6 life and discard 3 black cards from your hand instead of paying Sengir's mana cost.
Flying, first strike, flash
BBB: Exile target Vampire. Return it to the battlefield tapped at the beginning of the next end step.
5/5
That way you can let it protect itself, and even give it the flash. By the time you have three lands, three cards is a tough cost, and mana-less dredge isn't touching it. Nevertheless, it could still be a potent commander, and even go in standard. Discarding the cards can have real uses, but paying 6 life on turn three is no joke.
Sephara, Sky's Blade is a decent reference. You don't have to be quite so conservative as that for the alt cost, since the body is more toned down. But it's worth note that this is shoved as far away from turn one as possible. Another reference for nearly free fatties: Gurmag Angler/ Tombstalker.
Low-power cube enthusiast!
My 1570 card cube (no longer updated)
My 415 Peasant+ Artifact and Enchantment Cube
Ever-Expanding "Just throw it in" cube.
I think the printing of Thespian's Stage gave Legacy Lands an instant win it didn't have before. It was another extremely powerful tool in a toolbox that was already brimming with them. I think that (along with other meta changes) helped push Lands off of its incremental value plan - the cycling and threshold lands and Gamble that synergise with Life From the Loam from forever ago, and Sylvan Library. Today, I don't think that many lists are even maindecking Punishing Fire.
Is it a 'problem'? I'm not sure. Legacy's got a lot of powerful stuff. Arguably it's Crop Rotation that's the busted part.
But the thing we agree on is, whether Stage is over the line or not, one busted card or combo shouldn't be an excuse to print more.
While Crop Rotation is powerful, the problem card was Dark Depths from the beginning because its the common denominator in all the combos. Hexmage, Stage, Solemnity, etc are all generally fine otherwise.
Would it be overstated to reduce the final ability on Volrath to any legendary spell?
I'm going to float that other ability over to another legendary land,
The Praetor's Secret Chamber
Legendary Land
You may pay 1 life instead of 2 for the first Phyrexian mana you pay for with life each turn.
, Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature you control: Add CC to your mana pool. You lose 1 life.
, Remove a counter from target creature: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. If you control that permanent, you gain 1 life. Otherwise, you lose 1 life.
We have such sights to show you.
Wait a minute... You, the person who proclaims yourself great at making flavor text, just cribbed a quote wholesale from Hellraiser? What is this world coming to. Tsk tsk.
Ones with just +1 abilities are basically doa.