Bark at the Moon1R
Instant
Counter target blue instant spell. Up to one target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target player.
What do you think? Should it have the "Up to one" part, or should it require you to control a creature? Toying around with the idea of a more expensive and expressive Guttural Response variant, that has an additional value level. What do you think? CMC should be higher or more weighty? Should a creature type restriction be involved? Or is it fine as-is?
Bark at the Moon1R
Instant
Counter target blue instant spell. Up to one target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target player.
What do you think? Should it have the "Up to one" part, or should it require you to control a creature? Toying around with the idea of a more expensive and expressive Guttural Response variant, that has an additional value level. What do you think? CMC should be higher or more weighty? Should a creature type restriction be involved? Or is it fine as-is?
Main issue is that red doesn't get to counter spells; that's solely a blue (and white with taxing) ability. Old cards like Pyroblast are from a time when Richard Garfield's belief was that people might only own 10-15 booster packs worth of cards and only 1-2 copies of any card at most, so having mechanical bends occasionally would not overall impact gameplay and Maro has said Gutteral Response was a straight up mistake to print.
However, red can redirect spells giving you psuedo counter counter spell that is still within red's pie (by changing the target of the counterspell to the Bark at the Moon and then it fizziling).
Bark at the Moon1R
Instant
Change the target of target blue instant spell. Up to one target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target player.
Can you make this less targeted, and more open source?
You don't want/need the blue limitation. Open it up, and modulate the accessory effect.
I'm not really sure if this is why one, "Barks at the Moon". It certainly is open to interpretation though.
I would suggest it wants to dig for cards, tap or untap resources in some way as the primary. Color specific effects always wanted to work in theory, but simply never really worked out in practice as fantasized. So then, "Target creature gains protection from blue and from red until end of turn." maybe.
Pretty sure red can have counterspells if they are limited in some way. I mean the very last printed set does have a red counterspell. I'd like to see this card as you first made it but gave RR as the cost.
Talking about a 2008 "mistake" when they printed one for 2021 holds no water. The game evolves and changes every couple of years.
Tibalt's Trickery isn't a counterspell in the same way that Polymorph isn't a removal spell, even though it says "destroy target creature" (which you'll note that blue cannot do in a vacuum either).
Is Tibalt's Trickery a break? Or can we expect to see more like it in the future?
Maro: It’s a red polymorph spell. It’s a bit of a bend, so we’ll see how this one goes.
Additionally, since Mark's responses on Guttural Response are from 2019, the philosophy wouldn't have changed since then (which is when Kaldheim would have been in development, btw)
It's a bit rough to redesign Red's color pie specifically around not being able to interact with Cyclonic Rift, isn't it? I like red blasts; red is about initiation, and initiating with such ferocity that you pierce through disruption just feels very on-flavor for red. Redirection spells have been frequently unplayable cards that sit in your hand and I don't like this tweak.
It's a bit rough to redesign Red's color pie specifically around not being able to interact with Cyclonic Rift, isn't it? I like red blasts; red is about initiation, and initiating with such ferocity that you pierce through disruption just feels very on-flavor for red.
Red is allowed to do exactly this. However this isn't a counter spell its a can't be countered spell. Red is allowed can't be countered. Just don't try to justify a counter spell as a means of enacting can't be countered.
Also, redesign around not being able to interact with cyclonic rift? Green and White have the same problem. That doesn't mean they also need counterspells. Cyclonic Rift is a very powerful spell. Possibly too powerful. Its existence doesn't mean every color needs an explict counter play to it.
Isn't Mana Tithe the only situation where this has been a thing?
There was a white variant of Memory Lapse somewhere in Alara block as I recall, but I can't remember the name right now.
Lapse of Certainty, which isn't a taxing mechanic. They also have Rebuff the Wicked, which has been a card in white, green, and blue. These cards notably show up when you see a Sunforger a lot of the time!
Red is allowed to do exactly this. However this isn't a counter spell its a can't be countered spell. Red is allowed can't be countered. Just don't try to justify a counter spell as a means of enacting can't be countered.
Also, redesign around not being able to interact with cyclonic rift? Green and White have the same problem. That doesn't mean they also need counterspells. Cyclonic Rift is a very powerful spell. Possibly too powerful. Its existence doesn't mean every color needs an explict counter play to it.
With Feed the Swarm and Ravenform existing alongside modern magic card design philosophy, color pie considerations might not be so heavily weighted towards restriction anymore; if the card does something that feels like a spell a red mage would cast, I'm not personally upset. Rosewater has grown increasingly willing to break his own rules for the sake of gameplay (and money, with upcoming Warhammer MTG.)
While we're talking pie, though, what are the color pie thoughts generally on Null Brooch? Is a Brittle Effigy that exiles a spell instead of a creature acceptable within this group think?
With Feed the Swarm and Ravenform existing alongside modern magic card design philosophy, color pie considerations might not be so heavily weighted towards restriction anymore; if the card does something that feels like a spell a red mage would cast, I'm not personally upset. Rosewater has grown increasingly willing to break his own rules for the sake of gameplay (and money, with upcoming Warhammer MTG.)
While we're talking pie, though, what are the color pie thoughts generally on Null Brooch? Is a Brittle Effigy that exiles a spell instead of a creature acceptable within this group think?
Shifts in design doesn't mean the dissolution of the color pie. That is what feed the swarm is. As for raven form, that is an example of the fact that magic is not monolithic. Maro has said it shouldn't artifacts as blue isn't supposed to polymorph artifacts. The thought that if it feels right its fine is dangerous because anything can be flavored to fit into any color.
As for your two artifacts in question Brittle Effigy is 100% fine. Artifacts have their own pseudo slice of the color pie. They are allowed to do nearly anything as long as it weaker than the worst color at that thing(ignoring colors that can't do said thing). As for null broach. Thats a tricky one as the cost drops dramatically after the first use.
As for your two artifacts in question Brittle Effigy is 100% fine. Artifacts have their own pseudo slice of the color pie. They are allowed to do nearly anything as long as it weaker than the worst color at that thing(ignoring colors that can't do said thing). As for null broach. Thats a tricky one as the cost drops dramatically after the first use.
To piggyback on that, Null Brooch is also from more than 20 years ago (1998) where Effigy is just 10 years old. The color pie (and the role of artifacts in relation to it) solidified primarily through the 90s so anything before about Masques block should have an asterisk by it when used for referencing what a color can and can't do, much the same way as cards in Planar Chaos shouldn't be used as precedent for color pie discussions. Additionally, some cards still slip through that do things a color shouldn't. like Beast Within being able to destroy creatures or Chaos Warp being able to destroy artifacts. Guttural Response is an example of such a slip, though from further back than, say, effigy.
The question the posted card should ask isn't, "Should Red be able to counter blue spells?" Rather, "How can red interact with blue spells in a red way?" Tibalt's Trickery can "polymorph" the spell, Shunt can redirect the spell to a different target, Reverberate can copy the spell, and all of these can be used against counterspells effectively (getting a different spell, target the counter at the Shunt or countering the original counter with the copy respectively)
The question the posted card should ask isn't, "Should Red be able to counter blue spells?" Rather, "How can red interact with blue spells in a red way?"
I do think countering Blue Instant spells is thematically a lot lot lot different than just a Red Blast. In addition, what is the flavor interaction or explanation of Shunt making a counterspell target a resolved and no longer on the stack Shunt? I deflect your countermagic into my... deflection? It's a lot more confusing flavorfully than just shouting "BRICK!" as loud as you can to startle the Blue Mage so he misspeaks and syncopates his incantation. Molten Influence is another one; break the mage's concentration by making them dodge out of way of fire! It's not a red mage casting a Counterspell, it's a red mage doing something very red that happens to also potentially be disruptive. I'd like to see new ways to interact from red that evoke this, even if it's not necessarily countering anything.
When I mentioned Effigy I was talking about a theoretical card that would be like this one.
Molten influence is not a hard counter though, it's a punisher card which give the opponent an out by taking damage and your card would be fine if it did this. Red does not get hard counters. It's not in reds pie. Full stop. Red has answers to spells, but a hard counterspell isn't one of them.
Your effigy would probably work with a higher activation cost (like [card/]Universal Solvent[/card] higher) as it's current activation is only one more than a Cancel, so way too effecient for non-blue to have uncounterable counterspell access.
The question the posted card should ask isn't, "Should Red be able to counter blue spells?" Rather, "How can red interact with blue spells in a red way?"
I do think countering Blue Instant spells is thematically a lot lot lot different than just a Red Blast. In addition, what is the flavor interaction or explanation of Shunt making a counterspell target a resolved and no longer on the stack Shunt? I deflect your countermagic into my... deflection? It's a lot more confusing flavorfully than just shouting "BRICK!" as loud as you can to startle the Blue Mage so he misspeaks and syncopates his incantation. Molten Influence is another one; break the mage's concentration by making them dodge out of way of fire! It's not a red mage casting a Counterspell, it's a red mage doing something very red that happens to also potentially be disruptive. I'd like to see new ways to interact from red that evoke this, even if it's not necessarily countering anything.
When I mentioned Effigy I was talking about a theoretical card that would be like this one.
There is not a good 1-to-1 interpretation for everything that happens in a game. (Slimes in boots elephants with many swords.) If you really want one for Shunt, imagine that you are redirecting it to no target. That is the exact flavor implantation of the mechanical action of redirecting to shunt.
There are many things that do exactly what you claim you want to emulate. And they aren't counterspells.
As for your artifact.
Bottled Counterspell X
Artifact Y, T, Exile Bottled Counterspell: Exile target spell.
This is a fine card. The actual value of X and Y have to be carefully tuned. Possibly 2 and 6 or 3 and 5. There are many possibilities. Your specific example is too cheap which is a major defining category for artifacts "slice of pie".
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Instant
Counter target blue instant spell. Up to one target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target player.
What do you think? Should it have the "Up to one" part, or should it require you to control a creature? Toying around with the idea of a more expensive and expressive Guttural Response variant, that has an additional value level. What do you think? CMC should be higher or more weighty? Should a creature type restriction be involved? Or is it fine as-is?
Main issue is that red doesn't get to counter spells; that's solely a blue (and white with taxing) ability. Old cards like Pyroblast are from a time when Richard Garfield's belief was that people might only own 10-15 booster packs worth of cards and only 1-2 copies of any card at most, so having mechanical bends occasionally would not overall impact gameplay and Maro has said Gutteral Response was a straight up mistake to print.
However, red can redirect spells giving you psuedo counter counter spell that is still within red's pie (by changing the target of the counterspell to the Bark at the Moon and then it fizziling).
Bark at the Moon 1R
Instant
Change the target of target blue instant spell. Up to one target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target player.
You don't want/need the blue limitation. Open it up, and modulate the accessory effect.
I'm not really sure if this is why one, "Barks at the Moon". It certainly is open to interpretation though.
I would suggest it wants to dig for cards, tap or untap resources in some way as the primary. Color specific effects always wanted to work in theory, but simply never really worked out in practice as fantasized. So then, "Target creature gains protection from blue and from red until end of turn." maybe.
Talking about a 2008 "mistake" when they printed one for 2021 holds no water. The game evolves and changes every couple of years.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/640063745878556672/is-tibalts-trickery-a-break-or-can-we-expect-to/amp&ved=2ahUKEwjU067WvrrvAhVtQjABHeRLBnAQFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw0EJcuGifVzJKoKyZREa98V&cf=1
Additionally, since Mark's responses on Guttural Response are from 2019, the philosophy wouldn't have changed since then (which is when Kaldheim would have been in development, btw)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/186331941563/would-guttural-response-have-been-a-break-if-it/amp&ved=2ahUKEwiQjOO4wLrvAhVmQTABHdXtA28QFjABegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw1-mPlKNIWdAbGrsiMFfnjl&cf=1&cshid=1616093370475
Isn't Mana Tithe the only situation where this has been a thing?
There was a white variant of Memory Lapse somewhere in Alara block as I recall, but I can't remember the name right now.
Also, redesign around not being able to interact with cyclonic rift? Green and White have the same problem. That doesn't mean they also need counterspells. Cyclonic Rift is a very powerful spell. Possibly too powerful. Its existence doesn't mean every color needs an explict counter play to it.
Lapse of Certainty, which isn't a taxing mechanic. They also have Rebuff the Wicked, which has been a card in white, green, and blue. These cards notably show up when you see a Sunforger a lot of the time!
With Feed the Swarm and Ravenform existing alongside modern magic card design philosophy, color pie considerations might not be so heavily weighted towards restriction anymore; if the card does something that feels like a spell a red mage would cast, I'm not personally upset. Rosewater has grown increasingly willing to break his own rules for the sake of gameplay (and money, with upcoming Warhammer MTG.)
While we're talking pie, though, what are the color pie thoughts generally on Null Brooch? Is a Brittle Effigy that exiles a spell instead of a creature acceptable within this group think?
As for your two artifacts in question Brittle Effigy is 100% fine. Artifacts have their own pseudo slice of the color pie. They are allowed to do nearly anything as long as it weaker than the worst color at that thing(ignoring colors that can't do said thing). As for null broach. Thats a tricky one as the cost drops dramatically after the first use.
To piggyback on that, Null Brooch is also from more than 20 years ago (1998) where Effigy is just 10 years old. The color pie (and the role of artifacts in relation to it) solidified primarily through the 90s so anything before about Masques block should have an asterisk by it when used for referencing what a color can and can't do, much the same way as cards in Planar Chaos shouldn't be used as precedent for color pie discussions. Additionally, some cards still slip through that do things a color shouldn't. like Beast Within being able to destroy creatures or Chaos Warp being able to destroy artifacts. Guttural Response is an example of such a slip, though from further back than, say, effigy.
The question the posted card should ask isn't, "Should Red be able to counter blue spells?" Rather, "How can red interact with blue spells in a red way?" Tibalt's Trickery can "polymorph" the spell, Shunt can redirect the spell to a different target, Reverberate can copy the spell, and all of these can be used against counterspells effectively (getting a different spell, target the counter at the Shunt or countering the original counter with the copy respectively)
I do think countering Blue Instant spells is thematically a lot lot lot different than just a Red Blast. In addition, what is the flavor interaction or explanation of Shunt making a counterspell target a resolved and no longer on the stack Shunt? I deflect your countermagic into my... deflection? It's a lot more confusing flavorfully than just shouting "BRICK!" as loud as you can to startle the Blue Mage so he misspeaks and syncopates his incantation. Molten Influence is another one; break the mage's concentration by making them dodge out of way of fire! It's not a red mage casting a Counterspell, it's a red mage doing something very red that happens to also potentially be disruptive. I'd like to see new ways to interact from red that evoke this, even if it's not necessarily countering anything.
When I mentioned Effigy I was talking about a theoretical card that would be like this one.
Monkey Wrench 1
Artifact
4, T, Exile Monkey Wrench: Exile target spell.
Your effigy would probably work with a higher activation cost (like [card/]Universal Solvent[/card] higher) as it's current activation is only one more than a Cancel, so way too effecient for non-blue to have uncounterable counterspell access.
There are many things that do exactly what you claim you want to emulate. And they aren't counterspells.
As for your artifact.
Bottled Counterspell X
Artifact
Y, T, Exile Bottled Counterspell: Exile target spell.
This is a fine card. The actual value of X and Y have to be carefully tuned. Possibly 2 and 6 or 3 and 5. There are many possibilities. Your specific example is too cheap which is a major defining category for artifacts "slice of pie".