Howdy!
I’m trying to design a card that has a delayed lose the game trigger that causes you to lose 5 turns after said card etb’s unless a spell or permanent you control takes it out of the battlefield. Here’s what I have so far, but it’s extremely wordy.
[Whenever ~ enters the battlefield for the first time each game, create the emblem, “At the beginning of your end step, put a doom counter on this emblem, and then if this emblem has 5 or more doom counters on it, you lose the game. Whenever a spell or permanent you control reduces an opponent’s life total to 0, sacrifice this emblem.”]
Is there any way to shorten this up?
Edit: Here’s the rest of the card for synergy clarification. Angron, The Blood Angel2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian{MR}
Haste
Angron, The Blood Angel attacks each combat if able. At the end of your combat step, if Angron, The Blood Angel did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice 2 permanents and lose 2 life. For each permanent you cannot sacrifice, lose 5 life.
Whenever Angron, The Blood Angel enters the battlefield for the first time each game, create the emblem, “At the beginning of your end step, put a doom counter on this emblem, and if this emblem has 5 or more doom counters on it, you lose the game. Whenever a spell or permanent you control reduces an opponent’s life total to 0, sacrifice this emblem.”
12/10
To be clear, is the countdown supposed to stop:
A) when the card leaves the battlefield (as you say in the first paragraph), in which case you can probably put doom counters directly on the permanent.
OR
B) when your opponent hits 0 life (as you say in the bracketed text), in which case you could probably just remove the last sentence altogether, making the card slightly worse in multiplayer or when playing against lich or platinum angel but doing the same thing in other contexts.
[Whenever ~ enters the battlefield for the first time each game, create the emblem, “At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter. You lose the game if you have over 4 Doom counters. Whenever a spell or permanent you control reduces an opponent’s life total to 0, remove this emblem and your doom counters.”]
To be clear, is the countdown supposed to stop:
A) when the card leaves the battlefield (as you say in the first paragraph), in which case you can probably put doom counters directly on the permanent.
The reason I don’t want counters on the permanent is so that I can say “5 turns after etb you lose if you don’t kill an opponent.” If I put the counters on the permanent the ability will recycle every cast. The emblem works because it’s essentially a 5 turn death-counter.
B) when your opponent hits 0 life (as you say in the bracketed text), in which case you could probably just remove the last sentence altogether, making the card slightly worse in multiplayer or when playing against lich or platinum angel but doing the same thing in other contexts.
I don’t know an easier way to word the last ability because “kill an opponent with damage” (as far as I’m concerned) hasn’t been worded yet.
[Whenever ~ enters the battlefield for the first time each game, create the emblem, “At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter. You lose the game if you have over 4 Doom counters. Whenever a spell or permanent you control reduces an opponent’s life total to 0, remove this emblem and your doom counters.”]
I don’t want this to have synergy with Solemnity Because emblems don’t exist, they’re untouchable by permanents.
I have a few questions that make trying to comment on this card difficult. First, why is this restricted to the first time it enters? It adds a lot of words for what appears to be no gain. Second, do you absolutely have to be the one to kill the opponent to get rid of the emblem, or is any player dying fine? Third, is being unable to interact at all necessary? Usually, these types of effects have a method of playing with them making them more a puzzle rather than a race.
When ~ enters the battlefield, create an emblem with "At the end of your turn put a doom counter on this emblem," "If there are 5 or more doom counters on this emblem, you lose the game," and "Whenever a player loses the game, exile this emblem".
I have a few questions that make trying to comment on this card difficult. First, why is this restricted to the first time it enters? It adds a lot of words for what appears to be no gain. Second, do you absolutely have to be the one to kill the opponent to get rid of the emblem, or is any player dying fine? Third, is being unable to interact at all necessary? Usually, these types of effects have a method of playing with them making them more a puzzle rather than a race.
A 12/10 for 4 needs a drawback. If you can drop him on the field with a trample or swampwalk enabler he’s a two turn kill in any format. The race puts a clock on the board so you don’t just graveyard recur him to reset the clock every chance that you can. Also, regarding an opponent dying, players just won’t attack and it’s too restrictive on combat logically. No one will kill other players if you have this on the board. And if we’re looking at why the third ability shouldn’t be a permanent, it’s due to Lich or other Lich abilities, Ferropede, and Solemnity.
Entering more than once just gives you more emblems. You don't need to restrict it to only being once since entering again isn't resetting the previous emblem. You now just have 2 emblems doing the same thing. It is a tracking "issue" but since all would be sacrificed when an opponent would reach 0 there doesn't seem to be a good reason to care if they have more than one emblem.
Also, you would actually need to word it as "whenever a card named ~ enters the battlefield for the first time". Since every time time a card changes zones it is a new object, it will *always* be the first time that object entered the battlefield that game making your "this game" text superfluous.
And, to be fair, it is *more* of a drawback to create one each time it enters. If you kill one player after this enters, any time it enters again it is free. Why not force them to get another Emblem and race against the clock again?
The last ability should just be "whenever a source you control" rather than calling out spell or permanent.
This does still get "broken" by Sundial of the Infinite and Stifle effects. Not sure if that matters in terms of making it a permanent vs Emblem but it isn't like it can't be interacted with at all.
stifle will stop your ETB ability for 1 mana and stop the emblem from ever existing. Why would ferropede, a far more vulnerable creature that only delays the inevitable, be seen as the bigger problem?
I agree with the multiple emblems, and the text change the source. Due to the combat restriction on Angron, emblem still works better, because it’s a free get around.
And I only mentioned ferropede as a filler for remove counter abilities. Just the first thing that popped into mind that fits color identity for EDH.
A 12/10 for 4 needs a drawback. If you can drop him on the field with a trample or swampwalk enabler he’s a two turn kill in any format. The race puts a clock on the board so you don’t just graveyard recur him to reset the clock every chance that you can. Also, regarding an opponent dying, players just won’t attack and it’s too restrictive on combat logically. No one will kill other players if you have this on the board. And if we’re looking at why the third ability shouldn’t be a permanent, it’s due to Lich or other Lich abilities, Ferropede, and Solemnity.
You seem to have misunderstood everything I said. The question on why the first time is because making it everytime is simpler and potentially a larger downside.
Is other players not killing other players really likely to happen? Mostly I wouldn't want opponents to kills steal making you lose after dealing the majority of damage to a player.
It is already intractable by being an ETB which is stopped by hushbringer and other cards. Which is why I asked how important is it to not interact? Because you have many far stronger methods of interaction available than would be made available by making it counters on yourself.
You seem to have misunderstood everything I said. The question on why the first time is because making it everytime is simpler and potentially a larger downside.
Is other players not killing other players really likely to happen? Mostly I wouldn't want opponents to kills steal making you lose after dealing the majority of damage to a player.
It is already intractable by being an ETB which is stopped by hushbringer and other cards. Which is why I asked how important is it to not interact? Because you have many far stronger methods of interaction available than would be made available by making it counters on yourself.
I misunderstood the first part, and that’s on me. But by creating a permanent or player counters causes a few problems involving recursion. If he has an ETB with no ability stopper on the field and he recurs, it’ll either reset or add counters on a player, and for other permanents you can just sac them to itself or other outlets. Emblems can’t be the targets of sac outlets due to the fact that they aren’t permanents, thus aren’t affected by solemnity. He’d be seen as more of a Mardu win-con rather than an independent card because you can lock some combos like Thassa’s Oracle while threatening the board using ETB blockers. And regarding killing players, he’s an early game problem. In the late game kill steals are easier, but that’s not where this card shines. It’s the early game kills that makes him viable. Tree of Perdition, fling and any 1 damage on turn 5 is an easy edh kill early.
All of your talk about stopping counters with Solemnity and the rest falls a bit flat when you can already stop the ETB trigger with several other cards and never get the emblem in the first place.
You seem to have misunderstood everything I said. The question on why the first time is because making it everytime is simpler and potentially a larger downside.
Is other players not killing other players really likely to happen? Mostly I wouldn't want opponents to kills steal making you lose after dealing the majority of damage to a player.
It is already intractable by being an ETB which is stopped by hushbringer and other cards. Which is why I asked how important is it to not interact? Because you have many far stronger methods of interaction available than would be made available by making it counters on yourself.
I misunderstood the first part, and that’s on me. But by creating a permanent or player counters causes a few problems involving recursion. If he has an ETB with no ability stopper on the field and he recurs, it’ll either reset or add counters on a player, and for other permanents you can just sac them to itself or other outlets. Emblems can’t be the targets of sac outlets due to the fact that they aren’t permanents, thus aren’t affected by solemnity. He’d be seen as more of a Mardu win-con rather than an independent card because you can lock some combos like Thassa’s Oracle while threatening the board using ETB blockers. And regarding killing players, he’s an early game problem. In the late game kill steals are easier, but that’s not where this card shines. It’s the early game kills that makes him viable. Tree of Perdition, fling and any 1 damage on turn 5 is an easy edh kill early.
It would never reset, it would either create a completely new clock or add onto the existing clock. Which is why there is no reason to make it only trigger on the first time it enters.
I understand that you want to combo kill early with this guy but as you just said, you tree, swing or fling, and still need to deal 1 damage. This opens up lots of potential for kill steals. It's fine either way, it's just a lot cleaner to word it as any player dying.
You have a 4 Mana 12 power haste creature. I don't see a reason for all that text. At the end of your turn you get a doom counter. Then if you have 5 or more doom counters you lose the game. That's probably the most elegant way to put it. All this remove the counters and such are pointless when you have such a huge and devastating creature.
Does this work with other cards? Yes. Does the way you are suggesting work with other cards? Yes. It's basically the same thing just a different set of cards do the dirty work.
I get what you're going after here, I just think the wording here is unnecessarily complex. I think megatog's suggestion above is probably the cleanest way to word it.
Angron, The Blood Angel2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian
Haste
Angron, The Blood Angel attacks each combat if able. At the end of your combat step, if Angron did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice two permanents and lose 2 life. For each permanent you cannot sacrifice, lose 5 life.
At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter then you lose the game if you have five or more doom counters.
Whenever another player loses the game, you lose all doom counters.
12/10
I think there's still some wordiness here. The type line is going to be a big squeeze and the text as is barely fits legibly on a cardface. The typing may be worth the squeeze to you, and I have some ideas of ways to declutter the text box while still keeping the spirit of what you want. I'm not sure the second ability needs to have the losing 5 life clause as it usually won't be relevant anyway. I'd even suggest ditching the life losing clauses entirely and just force a sacrifice of two permanents and you get a doom counter if no combat damage was dealt to the opponent. That feels more in line with the existing drawback and keeps Angron from being a delayed auto-lose if there's issues getting through as it can be sacced to itself.
"For each permanent you cannot sacrifice, lose 5 life." is redundant. You can save card text space by not having it. If you can't sacrifice two permanents, you have no permanents, meaning you've already basically lost.
I would have him specify "other" permanents. You could get yourself into trouble if he gets Pacifism'd or repeatedly chumped by tokens. Being able to sac himself gives you an easy out. You shouldn't have an easy out.
Agreed. This card is way too powerful to have an easy out. I'm just envisioning this with a rancor on it. You don't need an easy out when you have a 4 Mana 12 power haster.
I also don't see the need for attacks each turn if able. With that drawback... Losing 2 permanence and getting 1 turn closer to losing the game kinda incentivizes attacking each turn.
Angron, The Blood Tyrant2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian
Haste
At the end of your combat step, if Angron did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice two other permanents and lose 2 life.
At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter then you lose the game if you have five or more doom counters.
Whenever another player loses the game, you lose all doom counters.
12/10
I feel pretty strongly that this is the most elegantly possible way to make the card while also being legible.
You could however have all that extra words if you can keyword the doom emblem thingy. After a few sets they sometimes don't put reminder text on certain cards with keywords. That way you can get all that extra.
I did change the name to tyrant rather than angel. I see nothing in this card that has anything to do with an angel. But I do see a lot that indicates a tyrant. It requires blood. If even from you. In the form of life loss and sacrifice from your board if it doesn't eat something from them.
Angron, The Blood Tyrant2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian
Haste
At the end of your combat step, if Angron did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice two other permanents and lose 2 life.
At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter then you lose the game if you have five or more doom counters.
Whenever another player loses the game, you lose all doom counters.
12/10
I did change the name to tyrant rather than angel. I see nothing in this card that has anything to do with an angel. But I do see a lot that indicates a tyrant. It requires blood. If even from you. In the form of life loss and sacrifice from your board if it doesn't eat something from them.
The reason I’m using the emblem is that once you cast Angron, you’re on the clock regardless if he stays on the field five turns. I agree with the lose 5 redundancy, but I need that emblem for the clock. As far as I’m concerned, there hasn’t been a delayed ability that lasts for multiple player turns.
Regarding the name, it’s based off of a Warhammer 40k character, hence why there’s no angel.
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I’m trying to design a card that has a delayed lose the game trigger that causes you to lose 5 turns after said card etb’s unless a spell or permanent you control takes it out of the battlefield. Here’s what I have so far, but it’s extremely wordy.
[Whenever ~ enters the battlefield for the first time each game, create the emblem, “At the beginning of your end step, put a doom counter on this emblem, and then if this emblem has 5 or more doom counters on it, you lose the game. Whenever a spell or permanent you control reduces an opponent’s life total to 0, sacrifice this emblem.”]
Is there any way to shorten this up?
Edit: Here’s the rest of the card for synergy clarification.
Angron, The Blood Angel 2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian{MR}
Haste
Angron, The Blood Angel attacks each combat if able. At the end of your combat step, if Angron, The Blood Angel did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice 2 permanents and lose 2 life. For each permanent you cannot sacrifice, lose 5 life.
Whenever Angron, The Blood Angel enters the battlefield for the first time each game, create the emblem, “At the beginning of your end step, put a doom counter on this emblem, and if this emblem has 5 or more doom counters on it, you lose the game. Whenever a spell or permanent you control reduces an opponent’s life total to 0, sacrifice this emblem.”
12/10
To be clear, is the countdown supposed to stop:
A) when the card leaves the battlefield (as you say in the first paragraph), in which case you can probably put doom counters directly on the permanent.
OR
B) when your opponent hits 0 life (as you say in the bracketed text), in which case you could probably just remove the last sentence altogether, making the card slightly worse in multiplayer or when playing against lich or platinum angel but doing the same thing in other contexts.
The reason I don’t want counters on the permanent is so that I can say “5 turns after etb you lose if you don’t kill an opponent.” If I put the counters on the permanent the ability will recycle every cast. The emblem works because it’s essentially a 5 turn death-counter.
I don’t know an easier way to word the last ability because “kill an opponent with damage” (as far as I’m concerned) hasn’t been worded yet.
I don’t want this to have synergy with Solemnity Because emblems don’t exist, they’re untouchable by permanents.
A 12/10 for 4 needs a drawback. If you can drop him on the field with a trample or swampwalk enabler he’s a two turn kill in any format. The race puts a clock on the board so you don’t just graveyard recur him to reset the clock every chance that you can. Also, regarding an opponent dying, players just won’t attack and it’s too restrictive on combat logically. No one will kill other players if you have this on the board. And if we’re looking at why the third ability shouldn’t be a permanent, it’s due to Lich or other Lich abilities, Ferropede, and Solemnity.
Also, you would actually need to word it as "whenever a card named ~ enters the battlefield for the first time". Since every time time a card changes zones it is a new object, it will *always* be the first time that object entered the battlefield that game making your "this game" text superfluous.
And, to be fair, it is *more* of a drawback to create one each time it enters. If you kill one player after this enters, any time it enters again it is free. Why not force them to get another Emblem and race against the clock again?
The last ability should just be "whenever a source you control" rather than calling out spell or permanent.
This does still get "broken" by Sundial of the Infinite and Stifle effects. Not sure if that matters in terms of making it a permanent vs Emblem but it isn't like it can't be interacted with at all.
stifle will stop your ETB ability for 1 mana and stop the emblem from ever existing. Why would ferropede, a far more vulnerable creature that only delays the inevitable, be seen as the bigger problem?
And I only mentioned ferropede as a filler for remove counter abilities. Just the first thing that popped into mind that fits color identity for EDH.
Is other players not killing other players really likely to happen? Mostly I wouldn't want opponents to kills steal making you lose after dealing the majority of damage to a player.
It is already intractable by being an ETB which is stopped by hushbringer and other cards. Which is why I asked how important is it to not interact? Because you have many far stronger methods of interaction available than would be made available by making it counters on yourself.
I misunderstood the first part, and that’s on me. But by creating a permanent or player counters causes a few problems involving recursion. If he has an ETB with no ability stopper on the field and he recurs, it’ll either reset or add counters on a player, and for other permanents you can just sac them to itself or other outlets. Emblems can’t be the targets of sac outlets due to the fact that they aren’t permanents, thus aren’t affected by solemnity. He’d be seen as more of a Mardu win-con rather than an independent card because you can lock some combos like Thassa’s Oracle while threatening the board using ETB blockers. And regarding killing players, he’s an early game problem. In the late game kill steals are easier, but that’s not where this card shines. It’s the early game kills that makes him viable. Tree of Perdition, fling and any 1 damage on turn 5 is an easy edh kill early.
I understand that you want to combo kill early with this guy but as you just said, you tree, swing or fling, and still need to deal 1 damage. This opens up lots of potential for kill steals. It's fine either way, it's just a lot cleaner to word it as any player dying.
Does this work with other cards? Yes. Does the way you are suggesting work with other cards? Yes. It's basically the same thing just a different set of cards do the dirty work.
Angron, The Blood Angel 2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian
Haste
Angron, The Blood Angel attacks each combat if able. At the end of your combat step, if Angron did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice two permanents and lose 2 life. For each permanent you cannot sacrifice, lose 5 life.
At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter then you lose the game if you have five or more doom counters.
Whenever another player loses the game, you lose all doom counters.
12/10
I think there's still some wordiness here. The type line is going to be a big squeeze and the text as is barely fits legibly on a cardface. The typing may be worth the squeeze to you, and I have some ideas of ways to declutter the text box while still keeping the spirit of what you want. I'm not sure the second ability needs to have the losing 5 life clause as it usually won't be relevant anyway. I'd even suggest ditching the life losing clauses entirely and just force a sacrifice of two permanents and you get a doom counter if no combat damage was dealt to the opponent. That feels more in line with the existing drawback and keeps Angron from being a delayed auto-lose if there's issues getting through as it can be sacced to itself.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I also don't see the need for attacks each turn if able. With that drawback... Losing 2 permanence and getting 1 turn closer to losing the game kinda incentivizes attacking each turn.
Angron, The Blood Tyrant 2BR
Legendary Creature - Human Primarch Barbarian
Haste
At the end of your combat step, if Angron did not deal combat damage to an opponent this turn, sacrifice two other permanents and lose 2 life.
At the beginning of your end step, you get a doom counter then you lose the game if you have five or more doom counters.
Whenever another player loses the game, you lose all doom counters.
12/10
I feel pretty strongly that this is the most elegantly possible way to make the card while also being legible.
You could however have all that extra words if you can keyword the doom emblem thingy. After a few sets they sometimes don't put reminder text on certain cards with keywords. That way you can get all that extra.
I did change the name to tyrant rather than angel. I see nothing in this card that has anything to do with an angel. But I do see a lot that indicates a tyrant. It requires blood. If even from you. In the form of life loss and sacrifice from your board if it doesn't eat something from them.
The reason I’m using the emblem is that once you cast Angron, you’re on the clock regardless if he stays on the field five turns. I agree with the lose 5 redundancy, but I need that emblem for the clock. As far as I’m concerned, there hasn’t been a delayed ability that lasts for multiple player turns.
Regarding the name, it’s based off of a Warhammer 40k character, hence why there’s no angel.