Thanks for checking out this thread. The concept for this unfinished cycle is to create tricolor lands that under the right circumstances can ETB untapped. Since these provide access to three colors the enter untapped triggers need to be pretty sizable hoops to jump through. Let me know if you think I struck the right balance with the first three designs.
Recycled Wasteland
Land (R)
Recycled Wasteland enters the battlefield tapped unless you drew at least 2 cards this turn and discarded at least 1 card this turn.
: Add U, B, or R.
Notes: While the condition sounds difficult, any looter will make this enter untapped. Also effects like Faithless Looting.
Rugged Salt Dunes
Land (R)
Rugged Salt Dunes enters the battlefield tapped unless the difference between your life total and any opponent’s life total is greater than or equal to 7.
: Add R, W or B.
Notes: Tend to think of R/W/B as aggro-centric colors but W/B is often lifegain heavy so I chose this ability to get an untapped tricolor land for this color set. I started at 10 for the life total difference needed, but I don't think that would see play outside of commander so I lowered the threshold to a more obtainable but still challenging 7.
Coastal Shrubflats
Land (R)
Coastal Shrubflats enters the battlefield tapped unless an opponent controls two or more creatures than you or four or more cards than you.
Add G, W, or U.
Notes: Shrubflats (Cardnaming is not my strong suit) is a tide-turner card. It gives you an ETB untapped tricolor land whenever an opponent has an advantage over you in something that is tied to these colors (Creatures/Cards).
Let me know your thoughts! Please keep it constructive.
While there isn't anything inherently bad about trying to design tri-lands that ETB untapped with a strict restriction, these are really, really complicated. For context, River of Tears is about as complex as lands get without giving them a second activated or triggered ability, and no land cycle since has ever come close.
Keep in mind that your payoff here is an untapped land, a benefit that decreases in value the longer the game goes on, and, ultimately, the only thing that matters when it comes to balancing these cards is when you want the land to be most useful. In my opinion, treating an untapped land, something that basics get by virtue of doing nothing special, as a reward to be earned by jumping through hoops misses the point of why the game has lands that conditionally enter untapped in the first place.
Even compared to most of the hoop jumping seen in game, these ones are complex. They all look at multiple variables (draw and discard, the life totals of all players, and creature counts and permanent counts of all players), which is at least one more variable than all but the most Johnny of cards. Now, most discussions about complexity tend to revolve around players' abilities to read and understand the text, but I'd like to avoid that, since it never goes anywhere. Rather, I'd like to ask a simple question: Why do these cards need this level of complexity? Why can't you just pick one of the draw two or discard one and put it on the card? Why does the card need to care about both creature counts and overall permanent count, instead of one or the other? More isn't always better, especially when it comes to something as simple, and, well, basic, as one's mana base.
I don't see these as complicated/complex. While the conditions are wordy that doesn't equal complicated. The lands are meet condition, enter untapped, don't meet condition, enters tapped. I appreciate you sparing me the debate about a players ability to read though, that is one of the most contrived criticisms I see in these forums regularly. I am all about a card needing to be intuitive, but saying a design is poor because a player "might" believe it works one way when nothing in the plain text of the card could reasonably support that interpretation is one of the strangest lines of argument I have seen others make about others designs as well as my own.
" In my opinion, treating an untapped land, something that basics get by virtue of doing nothing special, as a reward to be earned by jumping through hoops misses the point of why the game has lands that conditionally enter untapped in the first place."
So Shocklands are bad as well then? I understand that Shocklands apply the same effect universally and represent a much simpler hoop but they're all still jumping through the hoop of life loss to get an untapped land that can produce more than one color which is what you are saying misses the point as basics get this effect anyhow. I don't really think you believe that Shocklands are bad to be clear, just that your argument against this design would have also eliminated a lot of the best land cycles already in print.
"Why do these cards need this level of complexity? Why can't you just pick one of the draw two or discard one and put it on the card? Why does the card need to care about both creature counts and overall permanent count, instead of one or the other?"
I think having effects that correlate to the colors of the card is critical to seeing the ceiling of these cards (an ETB untapped tricolor land) happen. For instance, if I were to make the whole cycle care about drawing 2 and discarding 1, the RUB land would be massively better than the rest as the color set is most inclined to being able to achieve this. I think you either accept that certain cycles of land are just going to be better in some pairs than others (Like Fastlands being better for aggro color pairs, Temples being better for control, etc.) or you make the effects vary on each to play to the strengths of the colors and balance them as best you can. I think both approaches are legitimate. You can make a good case for making some of the hoops a little less challenging since pulling off a looting effect in RUB is much easier than being two creatures or four cards down in GWU. So I think my issue is more about balancing the effects. I think Recycled Wasteland is exactly where I want to be where as the others have hoops that are just a little much still for the value they provide.
As an aside, I think it is important to consider that the floor of these cards are already great cards. Crumbling Necropolis as a floor is already good. In many cases, it won't hurt a player just to let this enter untapped. So while I do think the conditions tied to the 2nd and 3rd design might be a bit too heavyhanded, they only need a minor change to bring them to the right balance.
I think the bigger point is whether it is worth it? Shocklands are worth it because you can pay the cost if you need them untapped even on turn one, where most of the conditions you're creating won't be relevant until mid or late game when the utility of the land entering untapped is less relevant. It's not that the hoops aren't flavorful or trackable, because they are, but creating the situation to use them is probably more trouble then the payoff is worth.
I don't like them because they restrict which kind of strategy are supported by the colors. Sort of like how Tournament Grounds does not support standard Kaalia decks. The game gains nothing with this sort of restrictions.
Tournament Grounds is a wonderful archetype support card for Thrones of Eldraine. It does incredible work for both limited and potentially in constructed. It doesn't have to mesh with Kaalia decks to be great design and it has a colorless fallback plan so it is never a dead card.
Imo it's unfair some strategies in the colors gets a better landbase them others. It's needless constraint.
Tournament Grounds only improvement over taplands is that knight decks wants to play 1 drops and thus "ETB tapped" does not work there. But I would rather have another drawback there then simply exclude the others 3 color decks.
Imo it's unfair some strategies in the colors gets a better landbase them others. It's needless constraint.
I agree with this. Most land cycles are symmetrical in their constraints. If they aren't then it has a weird side effect of telling players what colors or strategies they're allowed to play right from the manabase, rather than as a result of what other cards are in the format's pool.
Imo it's unfair some strategies in the colors gets a better landbase them others. It's needless constraint.
I agree with this. Most land cycles are symmetrical in their constraints. If they aren't then it has a weird side effect of telling players what colors or strategies they're allowed to play right from the manabase, rather than as a result of what other cards are in the format's pool.
Every advantage has a cost, this is how game balance is maintained. If you want great flexibility in what Mardu spells you play, your cost is the land coming into play tapped (Khans tri-lands). If you want access to the mana faster, you get restricted to colored spells of a certain type (Knights in this instance). The point of Tournament grounds isn't to enable-three colored strategies, since the Throne format is built mostly around mono-colored strategies and too much triple color support with the Ravnica stuff in standard would create 5-color good stuff soup, its to enable people who want to build Knight tribal to have an easier time doing it.
In essence, you're arguing that it doesn't do the thing you want when its purpose wasn't to do that anyway.
Imo it's unfair some strategies in the colors gets a better landbase them others. It's needless constraint.
I agree with this. Most land cycles are symmetrical in their constraints. If they aren't then it has a weird side effect of telling players what colors or strategies they're allowed to play right from the manabase, rather than as a result of what other cards are in the format's pool.
All dual lands have an impact on the meta. How fast or slow decks are, how many colors you can afford to play, and through the combination of those what particular colour combinations and strategies are favoured. The lands are just another card in the pool that determines the meta. They already generally keep things fairly constrained with symmetrical cycles and low strategic impact effects and conditions. I don't see any reason why not to splash for cards like Tournament Grounds here and there.
Imo it's unfair some strategies in the colors gets a better landbase them others. It's needless constraint.
I agree with this. Most land cycles are symmetrical in their constraints. If they aren't then it has a weird side effect of telling players what colors or strategies they're allowed to play right from the manabase, rather than as a result of what other cards are in the format's pool.
Every advantage has a cost, this is how game balance is maintained. If you want great flexibility in what Mardu spells you play, your cost is the land coming into play tapped (Khans tri-lands). If you want access to the mana faster, you get restricted to colored spells of a certain type (Knights in this instance). The point of Tournament grounds isn't to enable-three colored strategies, since the Throne format is built mostly around mono-colored strategies and too much triple color support with the Ravnica stuff in standard would create 5-color good stuff soup, its to enable people who want to build Knight tribal to have an easier time doing it.
In essence, you're arguing that it doesn't do the thing you want when its purpose wasn't to do that anyway.
I don't know why Knight tribal should get the extra help but not the people trying to play Mardu Aristocrats or Mardu Angels, aside from the already mentioned reason that Knights are suppose to be aggro deck and thus they are disproportionately hurt by scry lands and Fabled Passage.
I understand it's not possible to give equal support to every single strategy. It's just that the land base is a really bad place to give support for some archetypes in detriment of others imo.
Usually when WotC do this it's just to make casual archetypes more accessible. A cycle like this in rare and involving very competitive strategies in standard would be a disaster.
Metal Triland
Land T: Add C. Metalcraft — As long as you control three or more artifacts, Metal Triland has “T: Add W, U or G.”
TriCheck
Land
TriCheck enters the battlefield tapped unless you control three or more basic lands. T: Add W, U or B.
Worship Triland
Land T: Add C. T: Add W, U or G. Activate this ability only if you control two or more creatures.
Bounce Triland (closest as possible to Lairs)
Land
Bounce Triland enters the battlefield tapped unless you return an untapped land you control to its owner’s hand. T: Add W, R or B.
Hand Triland (too complicated, the condition itself is too wordy)
Land
As Hand Triland enters the battlefield, you may reveal a multicolored card with at least three different colors of mana anywhere on it from your hand. If you don’t, Hand Triland enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add R, U or G.
MultiCheck Triland
Land
MultiCheck Triland enters the battlefield tapped unless there are two or more colors among permanents you control. T: Add G, B or U.
Tricycle Pain (it needs some extra ability to offset being a worse Mana Confluence. But, won't the meta be warped by a whole cycle of ten?)
Land T, Pay 1 life: Add W, G or U.
Cycling 2 (2, Discard this card: Draw a card.)
TriMaze (that's how I see a non tribal Murmuring Bosk)
Land T, Pay 1 life: Add W. T: Add R or U. Activate this ability only if you control a white permanent.
TriMaze 2 (the previous one but the abilities are reversed)
Land T, Pay 1 life: Add G or U. T: Add W. Activate this only if you control a green or blue permanent.
Some ideas for conditions to enter untapped:
- You have less life than your opponent
- You have fewer cards in your hand than your opponent
I made duals with the above two. Not sure if it's too good for three colors.
I came to the conclusion that they aren't makign cycles of trilands except for the tapped ones for $$$$ reasons. If they make one, two or three cycles of ten trilands. The value of lands that produce any color of mana goes down.
Diamond 1
Land
As this enters the battlefield, you may pay 1 life and exile a basic land from your hand. If you don't, this enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add W, U or B.
Diamond 2
Land
As this enters the battlefield, you may exile a basic land from your hand. If you don't, this enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add W, U or B. You lose 1 life unless you control a permanent of any color.
Diamond 1
Land
As this enters the battlefield, you may pay 1 life and exile a basic land from your hand. If you don't, this enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add W, U or B.
Diamond 2
Land
As this enters the battlefield, you may exile a basic land from your hand. If you don't, this enters the battlefield tapped. T: Add W, U or B. You lose 1 life unless you control a permanent of any color.
That's a huge cost. Mox Diamond's value is that it lets you ramp on mana whereas these are more similar to shocklands that you have to 2 for 1 yourself for. You'd have to do something like , 'when this land enters the battlefield untapped create 1 mana of any color' in order to make it worth that cost.
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Recycled Wasteland
Land (R)
Recycled Wasteland enters the battlefield tapped unless you drew at least 2 cards this turn and discarded at least 1 card this turn.
: Add U, B, or R.
Notes: While the condition sounds difficult, any looter will make this enter untapped. Also effects like Faithless Looting.
Rugged Salt Dunes
Land (R)
Rugged Salt Dunes enters the battlefield tapped unless the difference between your life total and any opponent’s life total is greater than or equal to 7.
: Add R, W or B.
Notes: Tend to think of R/W/B as aggro-centric colors but W/B is often lifegain heavy so I chose this ability to get an untapped tricolor land for this color set. I started at 10 for the life total difference needed, but I don't think that would see play outside of commander so I lowered the threshold to a more obtainable but still challenging 7.
Coastal Shrubflats
Land (R)
Coastal Shrubflats enters the battlefield tapped unless an opponent controls two or more creatures than you or four or more cards than you.
Add G, W, or U.
Notes: Shrubflats (Cardnaming is not my strong suit) is a tide-turner card. It gives you an ETB untapped tricolor land whenever an opponent has an advantage over you in something that is tied to these colors (Creatures/Cards).
Let me know your thoughts! Please keep it constructive.
Keep in mind that your payoff here is an untapped land, a benefit that decreases in value the longer the game goes on, and, ultimately, the only thing that matters when it comes to balancing these cards is when you want the land to be most useful. In my opinion, treating an untapped land, something that basics get by virtue of doing nothing special, as a reward to be earned by jumping through hoops misses the point of why the game has lands that conditionally enter untapped in the first place.
Even compared to most of the hoop jumping seen in game, these ones are complex. They all look at multiple variables (draw and discard, the life totals of all players, and creature counts and permanent counts of all players), which is at least one more variable than all but the most Johnny of cards. Now, most discussions about complexity tend to revolve around players' abilities to read and understand the text, but I'd like to avoid that, since it never goes anywhere. Rather, I'd like to ask a simple question: Why do these cards need this level of complexity? Why can't you just pick one of the draw two or discard one and put it on the card? Why does the card need to care about both creature counts and overall permanent count, instead of one or the other? More isn't always better, especially when it comes to something as simple, and, well, basic, as one's mana base.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
" In my opinion, treating an untapped land, something that basics get by virtue of doing nothing special, as a reward to be earned by jumping through hoops misses the point of why the game has lands that conditionally enter untapped in the first place."
So Shocklands are bad as well then? I understand that Shocklands apply the same effect universally and represent a much simpler hoop but they're all still jumping through the hoop of life loss to get an untapped land that can produce more than one color which is what you are saying misses the point as basics get this effect anyhow. I don't really think you believe that Shocklands are bad to be clear, just that your argument against this design would have also eliminated a lot of the best land cycles already in print.
"Why do these cards need this level of complexity? Why can't you just pick one of the draw two or discard one and put it on the card? Why does the card need to care about both creature counts and overall permanent count, instead of one or the other?"
I think having effects that correlate to the colors of the card is critical to seeing the ceiling of these cards (an ETB untapped tricolor land) happen. For instance, if I were to make the whole cycle care about drawing 2 and discarding 1, the RUB land would be massively better than the rest as the color set is most inclined to being able to achieve this. I think you either accept that certain cycles of land are just going to be better in some pairs than others (Like Fastlands being better for aggro color pairs, Temples being better for control, etc.) or you make the effects vary on each to play to the strengths of the colors and balance them as best you can. I think both approaches are legitimate. You can make a good case for making some of the hoops a little less challenging since pulling off a looting effect in RUB is much easier than being two creatures or four cards down in GWU. So I think my issue is more about balancing the effects. I think Recycled Wasteland is exactly where I want to be where as the others have hoops that are just a little much still for the value they provide.
As an aside, I think it is important to consider that the floor of these cards are already great cards. Crumbling Necropolis as a floor is already good. In many cases, it won't hurt a player just to let this enter untapped. So while I do think the conditions tied to the 2nd and 3rd design might be a bit too heavyhanded, they only need a minor change to bring them to the right balance.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Tournament Grounds only improvement over taplands is that knight decks wants to play 1 drops and thus "ETB tapped" does not work there. But I would rather have another drawback there then simply exclude the others 3 color decks.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
- Rabid Wombat
Every advantage has a cost, this is how game balance is maintained. If you want great flexibility in what Mardu spells you play, your cost is the land coming into play tapped (Khans tri-lands). If you want access to the mana faster, you get restricted to colored spells of a certain type (Knights in this instance). The point of Tournament grounds isn't to enable-three colored strategies, since the Throne format is built mostly around mono-colored strategies and too much triple color support with the Ravnica stuff in standard would create 5-color good stuff soup, its to enable people who want to build Knight tribal to have an easier time doing it.
In essence, you're arguing that it doesn't do the thing you want when its purpose wasn't to do that anyway.
All dual lands have an impact on the meta. How fast or slow decks are, how many colors you can afford to play, and through the combination of those what particular colour combinations and strategies are favoured. The lands are just another card in the pool that determines the meta. They already generally keep things fairly constrained with symmetrical cycles and low strategic impact effects and conditions. I don't see any reason why not to splash for cards like Tournament Grounds here and there.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I don't know why Knight tribal should get the extra help but not the people trying to play Mardu Aristocrats or Mardu Angels, aside from the already mentioned reason that Knights are suppose to be aggro deck and thus they are disproportionately hurt by scry lands and Fabled Passage.
I understand it's not possible to give equal support to every single strategy. It's just that the land base is a really bad place to give support for some archetypes in detriment of others imo.
Usually when WotC do this it's just to make casual archetypes more accessible. A cycle like this in rare and involving very competitive strategies in standard would be a disaster.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Land
T: Add C.
Metalcraft — As long as you control three or more artifacts, Metal Triland has “T: Add W, U or G.”
TriCheck
Land
TriCheck enters the battlefield tapped unless you control three or more basic lands.
T: Add W, U or B.
Worship Triland
Land
T: Add C.
T: Add W, U or G. Activate this ability only if you control two or more creatures.
Bounce Triland (closest as possible to Lairs)
Land
Bounce Triland enters the battlefield tapped unless you return an untapped land you control to its owner’s hand.
T: Add W, R or B.
Hand Triland (too complicated, the condition itself is too wordy)
Land
As Hand Triland enters the battlefield, you may reveal a multicolored card with at least three different colors of mana anywhere on it from your hand. If you don’t, Hand Triland enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R, U or G.
MultiCheck Triland
Land
MultiCheck Triland enters the battlefield tapped unless there are two or more colors among permanents you control.
T: Add G, B or U.
Tricycle Pain (it needs some extra ability to offset being a worse Mana Confluence. But, won't the meta be warped by a whole cycle of ten?)
Land
T, Pay 1 life: Add W, G or U.
Cycling 2 (2, Discard this card: Draw a card.)
TriMaze (that's how I see a non tribal Murmuring Bosk)
Land
T, Pay 1 life: Add W.
T: Add R or U. Activate this ability only if you control a white permanent.
TriMaze 2 (the previous one but the abilities are reversed)
Land
T, Pay 1 life: Add G or U.
T: Add W. Activate this only if you control a green or blue permanent.
Some ideas for conditions to enter untapped:
- You have less life than your opponent
- You have fewer cards in your hand than your opponent
I made duals with the above two. Not sure if it's too good for three colors.
I came to the conclusion that they aren't makign cycles of trilands except for the tapped ones for $$$$ reasons. If they make one, two or three cycles of ten trilands. The value of lands that produce any color of mana goes down.
Diamond 1
Land
As this enters the battlefield, you may pay 1 life and exile a basic land from your hand. If you don't, this enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add W, U or B.
Diamond 2
Land
As this enters the battlefield, you may exile a basic land from your hand. If you don't, this enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add W, U or B. You lose 1 life unless you control a permanent of any color.
That's a huge cost. Mox Diamond's value is that it lets you ramp on mana whereas these are more similar to shocklands that you have to 2 for 1 yourself for. You'd have to do something like , 'when this land enters the battlefield untapped create 1 mana of any color' in order to make it worth that cost.