Corrupted Sewers2B
Dungeon {U} (E triggers when one ore more creatures attacks this dungeon. F triggers when all depth counters are removed from this dungeon, after it has been destroyed.)
At beginning of your upkeep, each opponent looses 2 life.
E - Create a 1/1 black rat creature token.
F - Target creature that dealt damage to corrupted sewers gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
/3
Unhallowed Crypts1B
Dungeon {U}
Skeletons, Spirits and Zombies you control gets +1/+1.
E - Target player puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard.
F - Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield. That creature is a black zombie in addition to it's types and colors.
/3
Brimming Warrens2R
Dungeon {U}
At beginning of your upkeep, create a 1/1 red Goblin creature token.
E - Target creature you control gets +1/+0 and gains first strike until end of turn.
F - Until the end of your next turn creatures you control have haste.
/2
Frozen Caverns4U
Dungeon {U}
At beginning of each opponent combat step, tap target creature that player controls.
E - Creatures attacking Frozen Cavern gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
F - Attacking creatures target opponent controls don't untap during that player's next untap step.
/3
I've tried to design dungeons in mtg for over 10 years. I think there are some ancient posts on this subject in this forum. I think Innistrad's transform and Dominaria's saga shows that being creative with card template can result in awesome fun sets. With this extra flexibility I think I've finally arrived where I want.
Crypts of the Damned3B
Enchantment - Dungeon {U} (Level 1 triggers when this card enters the battlefield. Level 2 triggers when you or planeswalker you control are attacked or targeted by spell or ability. Level 3 triggers when you or planeswalker you control is dealt damage. Sacrifice after level 3.)
Level 1 - Distribute two +1/+1 counters among zombies, spirits or skeletons you control.
Level 2 - Target player puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard.
Level 3 - Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.
Dragon's Lair2RR
Enchantment - Dungeon {R} (Level 1 triggers when this card enters the battlefield. Level 2 triggers when you or planeswalker you control are attacked or targeted by spell or ability. Level 3 triggers when you or planeswalker you control is dealt damage. Sacrifice after level 3.)
Level 1 - Create two Treasure tokens.
Level 2 - Return target artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Level 3 - Create a 5/5 red Dragon creature token with flying and "R: this creature gains +1/+0 until end of turn".
There are a couple of things I would like to explain about the design but I leave this for later. For now I want the first impressions.
I have some major questions. First, are you meant to get level 2 multiple times? Are you meant to be able to trigger these yourself? If you skip level 2 and hit level 3 are you just out on level 2? Or can you not trigger level 3 until you trigger level 2? Can I trigger level 3 multiple times in response to itself?
Ignoring these questions, these look like bad sagas. Bad meaning more complicated, more abusable, more confusing and less flavorful. Why am I getting a benefit from my opponent exploring my dungeon? I assume the creature attacking is meant to call to a creature exploring the dungeon, and the damage being slaying the boss which is why the dungeon is gone afterward.
I have some major questions. First, are you meant to get level 2 multiple times? Are you meant to be able to trigger these yourself? If you skip level 2 and hit level 3 are you just out on level 2? Or can you not trigger level 3 until you trigger level 2? Can I trigger level 3 multiple times in response to itself?
Ignoring these questions, these look like bad sagas. Bad meaning more complicated, more abusable, more confusing and less flavorful. Why am I getting a benefit from my opponent exploring my dungeon? I assume the creature attacking is meant to call to a creature exploring the dungeon, and the damage being slaying the boss which is why the dungeon is gone afterward.
You can get lvl 2 multiple times. You can trigger those yourself. You can trigger level 3 without level 2 but that's unusual. You can't trigger 3 multiple times with itself because the sacrifice effect is part of the trigger, so when one trigger resolves the card is sacrificed.
Yeah they are more complicated and more "abusable" then sagas but this doesn't says much as sagas are very simple and non-"abusable".
About the flavor, I think my vision is that every dungeon has 3 abilities. The first level represents the quest that sends adventures to the dungeon. In Crypts of the Damned, it's the undead getting more powerful. In Dragon's Lair, it's riches.
The second level represents exploration of the dungeon and this is why it may triggers several times. In crypts it's the undead stirrings in their graves represented by mill (bodies ready to be reanimated). In dragon's lair it's adventurers activating ancient traps (artifacts in graveyard).
The third level represents the adventurers going to the end of the dungeon and finding the big boss (those cases). It's the conclusion of the adventure.
I agree, I should drop the whole level thing as it's confusing and takes too much space. How about:
Tyrant's Tower2BW
Enchantment - Dungeon {R}
When Tyrant's Tower enters the battlefield exile target creature until Tyrant's Tower leaves the battlefield.
Whenever one or more creatures attacks you or a planeswalker you control, create a 2/2 white Knight creature token with vigilance.
Whenever you or a planeswalker you control is dealt combat damage, sacrifice Tyrant's Tower. Then create a 2/2 black Knight creature token with Menace.
Dungeons would have a unique loyalty separating the 3 abilities.
Triggering on combat damage for level 3 solves a significant problem I had with the design which was that any self-harm implement immediately broke these. Pain lands being the most obvious offender as you could trigger level 3 for every pain land you have. Dropping the levels and the targeting makes for a much cleaner card. Overall this version looks much better.
However, now you have a different problem. These only have an ETB unless your opponent attacks you. While you can expect this to happen there are a significant number of games where this doesn't happen. It's not bad to have a number of cards that are like this but its a hard sell for an entire type of card. I think the cards would be better if they worked for you rather than against your opponent.
I would like to discuss possible changes but the only thing filling my mind is a version of Sagas that gain lore counters when creatures attack.
Levels were bad names since the individual levels were parts of a conceptual whole, but worked to differently to be all classified the same way - as with ability words a common trigger ability would be mentally more easily grouped together.
But even going away fro that wording the main problem these dungeons have is that they disincentivize interaction. The opponent cannot "win" on the attack - getting through with some damage is bad, but getting blocked is even worse; better not attack the game and have a board stall. While individual rattlesnake cards like that are okay (we certainly have some enchantments and creatures off the top of my head that work this way), but as the foundation of a card type this is too one-sided.
I propose that this works more like a Saga that doesn't go away over time but by attack, a planeswalker or an ongoing scheme: Create a recurring advantage over time to incentivize action e. g.
Volatile Warren3R
Enchantment - Dungeon
When ~ enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your end step, create a 1/1 Goblin creature token.
If a source would deal combat damage to you or a planeswalker you control, that sources controller may have you sacrifice ~ instead. When you do, sacrifice any number of Goblins and ~ that much damage to target creature or planeswalker.
Schemer's Stronghold3U
Enchantment - Dungeon
When ~ enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your end step, draw a card, then discard a card.
If a source would deal combat damage to you or a planeswalker you control, that sources controller may have you sacrifice ~ instead. When you do, return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
I personally created a new card type for similar interactions called "asset" which could be directly attacked like players/planeswalkers. I could see this work as an enchantment subtype as well, but the whole "I'm attacking your planeswalker, but it also indirectly attacks both of your dungeon permanents" thing is not good for intuitive gameplay - it's a big reason why noncombat damage rules for planeswalkers were eventually changed and we now have "any target".
It's up to you to discern when the mechanics "feel" too much like planeswalkers, but I think the good old structure concept of just having a an attackable card type with its own toughness/life total is entirely valid and would be thematically where you want to be with a dungeon.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Triggering on combat damage for level 3 solves a significant problem I had with the design which was that any self-harm implement immediately broke these. Pain lands being the most obvious offender as you could trigger level 3 for every pain land you have. Dropping the levels and the targeting makes for a much cleaner card. Overall this version looks much better.
However, now you have a different problem. These only have an ETB unless your opponent attacks you. While you can expect this to happen there are a significant number of games where this doesn't happen. It's not bad to have a number of cards that are like this but its a hard sell for an entire type of card. I think the cards would be better if they worked for you rather than against your opponent.
I would like to discuss possible changes but the only thing filling my mind is a version of Sagas that gain lore counters when creatures attack.
I agree there's some unpleasant "punisher" feeling inherent in this kind of design. That's part of the dungeon concept (and traps) but in the end I think the challenge is to make that work despite this problem.
I guess my point is to try to tackle this problem in design instead of avoiding it in the template. I'm hopeful the first can be done while the later essentially kills the whole idea of dungeon cards.
For example, what if the first ability is the most desirable and meant to build around while the final part is essentially a bonus that is more splashy and meant to carry the narrative ? I'm thinking something like this:
Self-Aware Workshop1UR
Enchantment - Dungeon {R} X: Create a artifact token that is a copy of target artifact you control with converted mana cost X. Activate this ability only once per round.
Whenever you or a planeswalker you control is dealt combat damage, sacrifice Self-Aware Workshop. If you do, until the end of your next turn each noncreature artifact you control is an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.
Levels were bad names since the individual levels were parts of a conceptual whole, but worked to differently to be all classified the same way - as with ability words a common trigger ability would be mentally more easily grouped together.
But even going away fro that wording the main problem these dungeons have is that they disincentivize interaction. The opponent cannot "win" on the attack - getting through with some damage is bad, but getting blocked is even worse; better not attack the game and have a board stall. While individual rattlesnake cards like that are okay (we certainly have some enchantments and creatures off the top of my head that work this way), but as the foundation of a card type this is too one-sided.
I propose that this works more like a Saga that doesn't go away over time but by attack, a planeswalker or an ongoing scheme: Create a recurring advantage over time to incentivize action e. g.
Volatile Warren3R
Enchantment - Dungeon
When ~ enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your end step, create a 1/1 Goblin creature token.
If a source would deal combat damage to you or a planeswalker you control, that sources controller may have you sacrifice ~ instead. When you do, sacrifice any number of Goblins and ~ that much damage to target creature or planeswalker.
Schemer's Stronghold3U
Enchantment - Dungeon
When ~ enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your end step, draw a card, then discard a card.
If a source would deal combat damage to you or a planeswalker you control, that sources controller may have you sacrifice ~ instead. When you do, return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
I personally created a new card type for similar interactions called "asset" which could be directly attacked like players/planeswalkers. I could see this work as an enchantment subtype as well, but the whole "I'm attacking your planeswalker, but it also indirectly attacks both of your dungeon permanents" thing is not good for intuitive gameplay - it's a big reason why noncombat damage rules for planeswalkers were eventually changed and we now have "any target".
It's up to you to discern when the mechanics "feel" too much like planeswalkers, but I think the good old structure concept of just having a an attackable card type with its own toughness/life total is entirely valid and would be thematically where you want to be with a dungeon.
A new card type that can be attacked sounds promising. I think that could work. My thoughts:
Dungeons is a new card type.
Dungeons can be attacked, like players and planeswalkers.
Dungeons enters the battlefield with a number of depth counters equal to it's 'starting depth'.
Whenever a dungeon is dealt combat damage, remove that many depth counters from it.
A dungeon is destroyed whenever it has zero depth counters.
Dungeons have three ability boxes (think level-up creatures or sagas).
The first unmarked box functions like a standard ability box.
The second box marked by a closed door is a triggered ability and it triggers whenever the dungeon is attacked by one or more creatures.
The final box marked by a open door is a triggered ability and it triggers when all depth counters are removed the from dungeon. (after it being destroyed)
I think for this to work dungeons would have to be a permanent addition to the game, like Vehicles. I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble but I'm custom designer and for me it is !
If I take this route:
Corrupted Sewers2B
Dungeon {U}
Rat creatures you control have deathtouch.
I: Create an 1/1 black Rat creature token.
II: Destroy target creature that dealt damage to Corrupted Sewers this turn.
/1
Dungeons can be attacked, like players and planeswalkers.
Dungeons enters the battlefield with a number of depth counters equal to it's 'starting depth'.
Whenever a dungeon is dealt combat damage, remove that many depth counters from it.
A dungeon is destroyed whenever it has zero depth counters.
Dungeons have three ability boxes (think level-up creatures or sagas).
The first unmarked box functions like a standard ability box.
The second box marked by a closed door is a triggered ability and it triggers whenever the dungeon is attacked by one or more creatures.
The final box marked by a open door is a triggered ability and it triggers when all depth counters are removed the from dungeon. (after it being destroyed)
I think for this to work dungeons would have to be a permanent addition to the game, like Vehicles. I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble but I'm custom designer and for me it is !
If I take this route:
Corrupted Sewers2B
Dungeon {U}
Rat creatures you control have deathtouch.
I: Create an 1/1 black Rat creature token.
II: Destroy target creature that dealt damage to Corrupted Sewers this turn.
/1
That looks much better. I still want to caution that the first box - the default ability - should be an ability that encourages interaction, so something like a constant drain of life or token creation or repeated life gain/looting during the upkeep etc. Giving the controller of the dungeon deathtouch creatures and one of them for free when attacking it is basically shutting down interaction in that direction entirely - and the card type SHOULD be interactive.
Planeswalkers achieve that interactivity by having activated abilities that can be used every turn. You have to do something similar with individual card designs or you waste a lot of text basically creating an enchantment that only has the first line.
Two first boxes that would drive the point home - and maybe should be on low-rarity dungeons - would be:
Overlord's Fortress Creatures can't attack you.
Pit of Tributes At the beginning of each opponent's combat step, target creature that player controls attacks ~ this turn if able.
A change in that regard to Corrupted Sewers would be to make the first ability No Mercy. Now the opponent is encouraged to take out the sewers first and the "this place is lethally dirty" theme remains in place. Also fitting would be Hissing Miasma.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Agree but I think No Mercy swings too strongly in the other direction but I agree the standard ability must be strong enough to make players attack the dungeon.
How about:
Corrupted Sewers2B
Dungeon {U} (E triggers when one ore more creatures attacks this dungeon. F triggers when all depth counters are removed from this dungeon, after it has been destroyed.)
At beginning of your upkeep, each opponent looses 2 life.
E - Create a 1/1 black rat creature token.
F - Target creature that dealt damage to corrupted sewers gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
/3
PS: 'E' stands for environment ability and 'F' stands for finale.
Dungeon {U}
(E triggers when one ore more creatures attacks this dungeon. F triggers when all depth counters are removed from this dungeon, after it has been destroyed.)
At beginning of your upkeep, each opponent looses 2 life.
E - Create a 1/1 black rat creature token.
F - Target creature that dealt damage to corrupted sewers gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
/3
Unhallowed Crypts 1B
Dungeon {U}
Skeletons, Spirits and Zombies you control gets +1/+1.
E - Target player puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard.
F - Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield. That creature is a black zombie in addition to it's types and colors.
/3
Brimming Warrens 2R
Dungeon {U}
At beginning of your upkeep, create a 1/1 red Goblin creature token.
E - Target creature you control gets +1/+0 and gains first strike until end of turn.
F - Until the end of your next turn creatures you control have haste.
/2
Frozen Caverns 4U
Dungeon {U}
At beginning of each opponent combat step, tap target creature that player controls.
E - Creatures attacking Frozen Cavern gets -1/-0 until end of turn.
F - Attacking creatures target opponent controls don't untap during that player's next untap step.
/3
Crypts of the Damned 3B
Enchantment - Dungeon {U}
(Level 1 triggers when this card enters the battlefield. Level 2 triggers when you or planeswalker you control are attacked or targeted by spell or ability. Level 3 triggers when you or planeswalker you control is dealt damage. Sacrifice after level 3.)
Level 1 - Distribute two +1/+1 counters among zombies, spirits or skeletons you control.
Level 2 - Target player puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard.
Level 3 - Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.
Dragon's Lair 2RR
Enchantment - Dungeon {R}
(Level 1 triggers when this card enters the battlefield. Level 2 triggers when you or planeswalker you control are attacked or targeted by spell or ability. Level 3 triggers when you or planeswalker you control is dealt damage. Sacrifice after level 3.)
Level 1 - Create two Treasure tokens.
Level 2 - Return target artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Level 3 - Create a 5/5 red Dragon creature token with flying and "R: this creature gains +1/+0 until end of turn".
There are a couple of things I would like to explain about the design but I leave this for later. For now I want the first impressions.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Ignoring these questions, these look like bad sagas. Bad meaning more complicated, more abusable, more confusing and less flavorful. Why am I getting a benefit from my opponent exploring my dungeon? I assume the creature attacking is meant to call to a creature exploring the dungeon, and the damage being slaying the boss which is why the dungeon is gone afterward.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
You can get lvl 2 multiple times. You can trigger those yourself. You can trigger level 3 without level 2 but that's unusual. You can't trigger 3 multiple times with itself because the sacrifice effect is part of the trigger, so when one trigger resolves the card is sacrificed.
Yeah they are more complicated and more "abusable" then sagas but this doesn't says much as sagas are very simple and non-"abusable".
About the flavor, I think my vision is that every dungeon has 3 abilities. The first level represents the quest that sends adventures to the dungeon. In Crypts of the Damned, it's the undead getting more powerful. In Dragon's Lair, it's riches.
The second level represents exploration of the dungeon and this is why it may triggers several times. In crypts it's the undead stirrings in their graves represented by mill (bodies ready to be reanimated). In dragon's lair it's adventurers activating ancient traps (artifacts in graveyard).
The third level represents the adventurers going to the end of the dungeon and finding the big boss (those cases). It's the conclusion of the adventure.
I agree, I should drop the whole level thing as it's confusing and takes too much space. How about:
Tyrant's Tower 2BW
Enchantment - Dungeon {R}
When Tyrant's Tower enters the battlefield exile target creature until Tyrant's Tower leaves the battlefield.
Whenever one or more creatures attacks you or a planeswalker you control, create a 2/2 white Knight creature token with vigilance.
Whenever you or a planeswalker you control is dealt combat damage, sacrifice Tyrant's Tower. Then create a 2/2 black Knight creature token with Menace.
Dungeons would have a unique loyalty separating the 3 abilities.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
However, now you have a different problem. These only have an ETB unless your opponent attacks you. While you can expect this to happen there are a significant number of games where this doesn't happen. It's not bad to have a number of cards that are like this but its a hard sell for an entire type of card. I think the cards would be better if they worked for you rather than against your opponent.
I would like to discuss possible changes but the only thing filling my mind is a version of Sagas that gain lore counters when creatures attack.
But even going away fro that wording the main problem these dungeons have is that they disincentivize interaction. The opponent cannot "win" on the attack - getting through with some damage is bad, but getting blocked is even worse; better not attack the game and have a board stall. While individual rattlesnake cards like that are okay (we certainly have some enchantments and creatures off the top of my head that work this way), but as the foundation of a card type this is too one-sided.
I propose that this works more like a Saga that doesn't go away over time but by attack, a planeswalker or an ongoing scheme: Create a recurring advantage over time to incentivize action e. g.
Volatile Warren 3R
Enchantment - Dungeon
When ~ enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your end step, create a 1/1 Goblin creature token.
If a source would deal combat damage to you or a planeswalker you control, that sources controller may have you sacrifice ~ instead. When you do, sacrifice any number of Goblins and ~ that much damage to target creature or planeswalker.
Schemer's Stronghold 3U
Enchantment - Dungeon
When ~ enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your end step, draw a card, then discard a card.
If a source would deal combat damage to you or a planeswalker you control, that sources controller may have you sacrifice ~ instead. When you do, return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.
I personally created a new card type for similar interactions called "asset" which could be directly attacked like players/planeswalkers. I could see this work as an enchantment subtype as well, but the whole "I'm attacking your planeswalker, but it also indirectly attacks both of your dungeon permanents" thing is not good for intuitive gameplay - it's a big reason why noncombat damage rules for planeswalkers were eventually changed and we now have "any target".
It's up to you to discern when the mechanics "feel" too much like planeswalkers, but I think the good old structure concept of just having a an attackable card type with its own toughness/life total is entirely valid and would be thematically where you want to be with a dungeon.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
I agree there's some unpleasant "punisher" feeling inherent in this kind of design. That's part of the dungeon concept (and traps) but in the end I think the challenge is to make that work despite this problem.
I guess my point is to try to tackle this problem in design instead of avoiding it in the template. I'm hopeful the first can be done while the later essentially kills the whole idea of dungeon cards.
For example, what if the first ability is the most desirable and meant to build around while the final part is essentially a bonus that is more splashy and meant to carry the narrative ? I'm thinking something like this:
Self-Aware Workshop 1UR
Enchantment - Dungeon {R}
X: Create a artifact token that is a copy of target artifact you control with converted mana cost X. Activate this ability only once per round.
Whenever you or a planeswalker you control is dealt combat damage, sacrifice Self-Aware Workshop. If you do, until the end of your next turn each noncreature artifact you control is an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.
A new card type that can be attacked sounds promising. I think that could work. My thoughts:
I think for this to work dungeons would have to be a permanent addition to the game, like Vehicles. I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble but I'm custom designer and for me it is !
If I take this route:
Corrupted Sewers 2B
Dungeon {U}
Rat creatures you control have deathtouch.
I: Create an 1/1 black Rat creature token.
II: Destroy target creature that dealt damage to Corrupted Sewers this turn.
/1
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
That looks much better. I still want to caution that the first box - the default ability - should be an ability that encourages interaction, so something like a constant drain of life or token creation or repeated life gain/looting during the upkeep etc. Giving the controller of the dungeon deathtouch creatures and one of them for free when attacking it is basically shutting down interaction in that direction entirely - and the card type SHOULD be interactive.
Planeswalkers achieve that interactivity by having activated abilities that can be used every turn. You have to do something similar with individual card designs or you waste a lot of text basically creating an enchantment that only has the first line.
Two first boxes that would drive the point home - and maybe should be on low-rarity dungeons - would be:
A change in that regard to Corrupted Sewers would be to make the first ability No Mercy. Now the opponent is encouraged to take out the sewers first and the "this place is lethally dirty" theme remains in place. Also fitting would be Hissing Miasma.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
How about:
Corrupted Sewers 2B
Dungeon {U}
(E triggers when one ore more creatures attacks this dungeon. F triggers when all depth counters are removed from this dungeon, after it has been destroyed.)
At beginning of your upkeep, each opponent looses 2 life.
E - Create a 1/1 black rat creature token.
F - Target creature that dealt damage to corrupted sewers gets -3/-3 until the end of turn.
/3
PS: 'E' stands for environment ability and 'F' stands for finale.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras