Red has the fewest Foretell cards, but will have more cards with the other named set mechanic.
Bladestorm (Common) 1R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.
Foretell R(As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay R.)
When this card is foretold, target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Molten Mortars (Uncommon) 3R
Sorcery
Molten Mortars deals 2 damage to each of two targets.
Foretell 1R(As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay 1R.)
When this card is foretold, it deals 1 damage to each of two targets.
World's End (Rare) 5R
Sorcery
Each player sacrifices all nonbasic lands they control.
Foretell 2R(As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay 2R.)
When this card is foretold, it deals damage to each player equal to the number of nonbasic lands that player controls.
Same comment as in the old thread: Now if you pay the foretold cost both effects trigger. Not only the weaker one.
I'm fairly certain that you're misreading these cards, as there is nothing wrong with their wording and structure. Each foretell card has three abilities: The first is a spell ability. Spell abilities are a category of ability unique to instants and sorceries, and they occur as part of the resolution of the spell. The second ability is foretell, which enables the reveal and paying the cost for the card to be foretold. The third ability is a triggered ability associated with the payment of the foretell cost. The first and third abilities have totally separate conditions. The spell ability will do nothing when the card is foretold because the card in question is not a resolving spell on the stack, and, likewise, the triggered ability does nothing once the spell is on the stack.
The spell would use the stack when it is foretold.
Terminus uses the stack. So I assumed that Foretell would use the stack as well similar to Miracle.
If you cast Molten Mortars for it Foretell cost it would deal 2 damage to two targets and then because you used Fortell you deal 1 damage for 1 damage.
I think a simple "instead" at the end of the 3rd ability would solve this issue, since it would make the 3rd ability a replacement effect.
Not using the stack would have huge implications because that would Fortell spells if you use them for their Fortell cost uncounterable.
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The spell would use the stack when it is foretold.
Terminus uses the stack. So I assumed that Foretell would use the stack as well similar to Miracle.
If you cast Molten Mortars for it Foretell cost it would deal 2 damage to two targets and then because you used Fortell you deal 1 damage for 1 damage.
Foretell's not an alternate casting cost, though. It's a variation of Forecast that activates when the card is drawn rather than during your upkeep.
That said, it should probably be worded similarly to Forecast.
Bladestorm - 1R Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn. Foretell - As you draw Bladestorm, you may pay R and reveal it. If you do, target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
The spell would use the stack when it is foretold.
Terminus uses the stack. So I assumed that Foretell would use the stack as well similar to Miracle.
If you cast Molten Mortars for it Foretell cost it would deal 2 damage to two targets and then because you used Fortell you deal 1 damage for 1 damage.
I think a simple "instead" at the end of the 3rd ability would solve this issue, since it would make the 3rd ability a replacement effect.
Not using the stack would have huge implications because that would Fortell spells if you use them for their Fortell cost uncounterable.
Except the spell itself isn't on the stack, only its triggered ability. The card with foretell is still in your hand while the foretell ability resolves. Let me repeat: the spell ability does nothing when foretell triggers. Terminus uses the stack because miracle is a triggered ability that casts the spell, but foretell has no casting involved.
That said, it should probably be worded similarly to Forecast.
Bladestorm - 1R Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn. Foretell - As you draw Bladestorm, you may pay R and reveal it. If you do, target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
There is a huge problem with the mechanic as currently written: If an ability of an object would trigger, but the object's identity isn't known to all players at that time, it doesn't trigger.
603.2e. If a triggered ability's trigger condition is met, but the object with that triggered ability is at no time visible to all players, the ability does not trigger.
An ability that reads "When you draw this card, ..." necessarily triggers from the hand, a zone that (usually) contains cards whose identity is only known to the player who owns the cards in it. Because of this, such an ability will never trigger. It doesn't matter that the card is revealed upon resolution, because an ability can't resolve if it never triggers.
Therefore, it is impossible for forebode to be an ability word in this state. You must change some part of the mechanic, or make it a keyword ability, in order for it to work.
Like this?
Uplift (Common) 2W
Sorcery
Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains flying until end of turn.
Foretell W(As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay W.)
When this card is foretold, target creature gets +1/+1 and gains flying until end of turn.
Bladestorm - 1R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.
Foretell - R, reveal Bladestorm from your hand as you draw it: Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
And in this case an ability word is perfectly sufficient.
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The spell would use the stack when it is foretold.
First mistake right here in the second word: "spell". What spell? Foretold as in the OP is a static ability. When you use that ability the triggered ability goes on the stack.
Terminus uses the stack. So I assumed that Foretell would use the stack as well similar to Miracle.
Foretell would use the stack, but not by casting the spell, but by putting a triggered ability on the stack indirectly (the one printed on the card starting with "When"). The reason miracle puts the spell on the stack is because miracle outright uses the phrase "cast" - which is the action that creates a spell on the stack. No casting, no spell. Foretell does not cast nor does the triggered ability lead to cast in the example I look at.
If you cast Molten Mortars for it Foretell cost it would deal 2 damage to two targets and then because you used Fortell you deal 1 damage for 1 damage.
Here it comes all together: Your statement is correct: If you cast the spell, you get its effect. But once again: That word cast is nowhere to be found, neither in foretells text nor in the triggered ability. That's the misunderstanding.
For a good analogy, think of cycling cards with a trigger upon cycling e. g. Deem Worthy (the main difference is that cycling is an activated ability, while foretell needs to be a static ability; cycling allows you to choose the timing, foretell needs to apply during a very narrow timing window and that window is during another action). When you cycle the card, the triggered ability goes on the stack allowing you to deal 2 damage, but the card is not cast and hence doesn't go on the stack as a spell and hence doesn't deal 7 damage in addition.
Foretell's not an alternate casting cost, though. It's a variation of Forecast that activates when the card is drawn rather than during your upkeep.
This is misleading since foretell is not an activated ability and in fact cannot be an activated ability since activated abilities (other than mana abilities, but let's better not go there ) do require priority and the use of the stack - which doesn't happen during the action of card draw. Priority will only be received once the card is drawn and added to the hand - far too late logistically to tell it apart from other cards you might have put into your hand earlier.
Bladestorm - 1R Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn. Foretell - As you draw Bladestorm, you may pay R and reveal it. If you do, target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
This wouldn't work since you only have a static ability here. The "When" used in the OP is essential since it signifies a triggered ability.
Static abilities don't use the stack and resolve - they just apply at different points in time during different situations differently. Without going on the stack, they cannot use targets. Triggered abilities go on the stack etc. (once again exceptions may apply for mana abilities) so the can have targets.
our ability is easily fixed by replacing the "If" with a "When", but then it is virtually identical to what the OP already contains (exceptions would do apply though that are not relevant to this discussion hence "virtually identical" rather than "actually identical"), so... no strict need to do so.
Bladestorm - 1R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.
Foretell - R, reveal Bladestorm from your hand as you draw it: Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
And in this case an ability word is perfectly sufficient.
Please refer to the above explanation why an ability that needs to apply during the resolution of another action or effect cannot be an activated ability (*insert usual mana ability disclaimer here*). You cannot activate a targeted activated ability without receiving priority and using the stack (*no disclaimer needed here*). And the rules don't allow that to happen "as you draw". The very fact that you put the timing restriction as part of the cost of an activated ability shows a gross misunderstanding of the different concepts and application of activated abilities versus other abilities.
tl;dr: The two of you make your own mistakes and both suggest fixes to the OP wording that do not work under the rules. Since I cannot see anything about the OP version that disqualifies its wording it is the one valid contender and best solution by default.
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Legend correctly quotes Thought Criminals earlier comment, but I think it might be insightful to you to read about the reasons your alternative suggestions cannot be used. And why "spell", "trigger", "activate" and "cast" are terms to use carefully when talking about the intricacies of the rules.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
You are right an activated ability will not work. My main problem is that the mechanic is quite confusing and could really use a templating which does not make your head scratch. The current one made me think of an alternative cost (which is again my problem). I think what I want to say is that the mechanic works now on a rules level, but would not make it past playtesting since people would misread what the card actually does.
Essentially I am asking for something like the "cycled or discarded" thing on the Hollow One. Which is terribly redundant but makes many people play the card right. And you are more adapt then I am to come up with a better wording.
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Bladestorm (Common)
1R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.
Foretell R (As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay R.)
When this card is foretold, target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Molten Mortars (Uncommon)
3R
Sorcery
Molten Mortars deals 2 damage to each of two targets.
Foretell 1R (As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay 1R.)
When this card is foretold, it deals 1 damage to each of two targets.
World's End (Rare)
5R
Sorcery
Each player sacrifices all nonbasic lands they control.
Foretell 2R (As you draw this card, you may reveal it and pay 2R.)
When this card is foretold, it deals damage to each player equal to the number of nonbasic lands that player controls.
Hands to the sky
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I don’t understand. Could you explain?
I'm fairly certain that you're misreading these cards, as there is nothing wrong with their wording and structure. Each foretell card has three abilities: The first is a spell ability. Spell abilities are a category of ability unique to instants and sorceries, and they occur as part of the resolution of the spell. The second ability is foretell, which enables the reveal and paying the cost for the card to be foretold. The third ability is a triggered ability associated with the payment of the foretell cost. The first and third abilities have totally separate conditions. The spell ability will do nothing when the card is foretold because the card in question is not a resolving spell on the stack, and, likewise, the triggered ability does nothing once the spell is on the stack.
Terminus uses the stack. So I assumed that Foretell would use the stack as well similar to Miracle.
If you cast Molten Mortars for it Foretell cost it would deal 2 damage to two targets and then because you used Fortell you deal 1 damage for 1 damage.
I think a simple "instead" at the end of the 3rd ability would solve this issue, since it would make the 3rd ability a replacement effect.
Not using the stack would have huge implications because that would Fortell spells if you use them for their Fortell cost uncounterable.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Foretell's not an alternate casting cost, though. It's a variation of Forecast that activates when the card is drawn rather than during your upkeep.
That said, it should probably be worded similarly to Forecast.
Bladestorm - 1R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.
Foretell - As you draw Bladestorm, you may pay R and reveal it. If you do, target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Except the spell itself isn't on the stack, only its triggered ability. The card with foretell is still in your hand while the foretell ability resolves. Let me repeat: the spell ability does nothing when foretell triggers. Terminus uses the stack because miracle is a triggered ability that casts the spell, but foretell has no casting involved.
Bladestorm - 1R
Sorcery
Target creature gains double strike until end of turn.
Foretell - R, reveal Bladestorm from your hand as you draw it: Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
And in this case an ability word is perfectly sufficient.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
First mistake right here in the second word: "spell". What spell? Foretold as in the OP is a static ability. When you use that ability the triggered ability goes on the stack.
Foretell would use the stack, but not by casting the spell, but by putting a triggered ability on the stack indirectly (the one printed on the card starting with "When"). The reason miracle puts the spell on the stack is because miracle outright uses the phrase "cast" - which is the action that creates a spell on the stack. No casting, no spell. Foretell does not cast nor does the triggered ability lead to cast in the example I look at.
Here it comes all together: Your statement is correct: If you cast the spell, you get its effect. But once again: That word cast is nowhere to be found, neither in foretells text nor in the triggered ability. That's the misunderstanding.
For a good analogy, think of cycling cards with a trigger upon cycling e. g. Deem Worthy (the main difference is that cycling is an activated ability, while foretell needs to be a static ability; cycling allows you to choose the timing, foretell needs to apply during a very narrow timing window and that window is during another action). When you cycle the card, the triggered ability goes on the stack allowing you to deal 2 damage, but the card is not cast and hence doesn't go on the stack as a spell and hence doesn't deal 7 damage in addition.
This is misleading since foretell is not an activated ability and in fact cannot be an activated ability since activated abilities (other than mana abilities, but let's better not go there ) do require priority and the use of the stack - which doesn't happen during the action of card draw. Priority will only be received once the card is drawn and added to the hand - far too late logistically to tell it apart from other cards you might have put into your hand earlier.
This wouldn't work since you only have a static ability here. The "When" used in the OP is essential since it signifies a triggered ability.
Static abilities don't use the stack and resolve - they just apply at different points in time during different situations differently. Without going on the stack, they cannot use targets. Triggered abilities go on the stack etc. (once again exceptions may apply for mana abilities) so the can have targets.
our ability is easily fixed by replacing the "If" with a "When", but then it is virtually identical to what the OP already contains (exceptions would do apply though that are not relevant to this discussion hence "virtually identical" rather than "actually identical"), so... no strict need to do so.
Please refer to the above explanation why an ability that needs to apply during the resolution of another action or effect cannot be an activated ability (*insert usual mana ability disclaimer here*). You cannot activate a targeted activated ability without receiving priority and using the stack (*no disclaimer needed here*). And the rules don't allow that to happen "as you draw". The very fact that you put the timing restriction as part of the cost of an activated ability shows a gross misunderstanding of the different concepts and application of activated abilities versus other abilities.
tl;dr: The two of you make your own mistakes and both suggest fixes to the OP wording that do not work under the rules. Since I cannot see anything about the OP version that disqualifies its wording it is the one valid contender and best solution by default.
---
Legend correctly quotes Thought Criminals earlier comment, but I think it might be insightful to you to read about the reasons your alternative suggestions cannot be used. And why "spell", "trigger", "activate" and "cast" are terms to use carefully when talking about the intricacies of the rules.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
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Essentially I am asking for something like the "cycled or discarded" thing on the Hollow One. Which is terribly redundant but makes many people play the card right. And you are more adapt then I am to come up with a better wording.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!