While working on a Ravnica set, I was pondering the Guildmages. We have three cycles so far, but I wanted to include a cycle in this set. I also wanted them to be different this time around and thought about how to do that. What I came up with is this:
Niv's GuildmageUR
Creature - Human Wizard U
2/2
Whenever you cast a red spell, you may pay U. If you do, target creature an opponent controls doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
Whenever you cast a blue spell, you may pay R. If you do, target creature attacks during its controller's next combat if able.
So here are the changes:
The naming scheme this time is Guildleader's Guilmage.
The abilities this time are triggered, not activated. Each ability triggers off of casting a spell of one of the guild's colors, and allows you to pay mana of the other color to add an additional effect. This rewards players for playing spells of the guild's colors by sorta turning monocolored spells into gold spells. It also lets the player enhance gold spells with both triggered abilities.
At this point, the only challenge I'm running into is finding enough triggered effects at an appropriate power level to cost one extra mana of a different color. I'm looking for suggestions here, so any idea is a good one.
Triggered abilities are interesting but might feel almost... too much not like guildmages? I still like the idea and I'm confident there are twenty small effects out there...
If you're still exploring options for the cycle, you could consider a hybrid activated ability and a multicolored activated ability (with or without tapping as you see fit)
I have pretty much decided on using triggered abilities because I like the concept so much. It pushes players very effectively into being more active throughout the game, especially in the colors of your guild.
As for the abilities, I've settled on a few that I'm happy with. I'll try to post them later.
How married are you to the costing exactly 1 mana of the opposing color. The guildmages have always had varying costs for their effects and keeping them to no more than 3 extra on cost could give you a much wider range of abilities to choose from.
How married are you to the costing exactly 1 mana of the opposing color. The guildmages have always had varying costs for their effects and keeping them to no more than 3 extra on cost could give you a much wider range of abilities to choose from.
I'd rather explore the 1-cost effects first. If it happens that I can't find a good 1-cost effect for each color combo, then I suppose I'll bite the bullet and look into more expensive effects, but I'd really rather the abilities all be equal. It would be different if they were activated abilities, but since these are like add-ons to spells, I want to avoid making spells of one color easier to enhance than spells of another.
If it comes to that, then I'd at least like to keep the costs the same on the same guildmage. That way one color doesn't feel favored over the other by being easier to reward. For example:
Vannifar's GuildmageGU
Creature - Mutant Wizard
2/2
Whenever you cast a blue spell, you may pay 1G. If you do, put two +1/+1 counters on target creature.
Whenever you cast a green spell, you may pay 1U. If you do, target creature has base power and toughness 3/3 until end of turn.
It seems the design space is clear:
Name Guildmage :symwg::symwg:
Creature - Elf Shaman (U)
[small mana cost],T: Small Effect
[large mana cost],T: Big Effect
2/2
For example:
Renewal Guildmage :symwg::symwg:
Creature - Elf Shaman (U)
:symwg:,T: Each player creates a 1/1 green saproling creature token. 1:symwg::symwg:,T: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller creates a 3/3 green beast token.
2/2
The design space here is pretty clear; it's full hybrid, so you don't need to run it in a 2 color deck to get both effects. It taps, so it's not an absolute mana sink (although I'd be for a non-tapper as well)
Your "spells matter" design might be okay, but I don't think they occupy the same design space as guildmages.
It seems the design space is clear:
Name Guildmage :symwg::symwg:
Creature - Elf Shaman (U)
[small mana cost],T: Small Effect
[large mana cost],T: Big Effect
2/2
For example:
Renewal Guildmage :symwg::symwg:
Creature - Elf Shaman (U)
:symwg:,T: Each player creates a 1/1 green saproling creature token. 1:symwg::symwg:,T: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller creates a 3/3 green beast token.
2/2
The design space here is pretty clear; it's full hybrid, so you don't need to run it in a 2 color deck to get both effects. It taps, so it's not an absolute mana sink (although I'd be for a non-tapper as well)
Your "spells matter" design might be okay, but I don't think they occupy the same design space as guildmages.
You act like doing something different with the guildmages is a crime. I think it's about time Ravnica got a bit of a shake-up in its tropes.
It's not as though my model is problematic or plays poorly. They're just different. And yeah, we can fiddle around with different combinations of hybrid and gold and tap abilities and repeatable abilities and such until the death of Magic, but I can't be the only one who thinks the third time around has been disappointingly stale. I want to experiment with Ravnica and explore new ideas. Personally, I think that the inclusion of guildmages at all is a bit tame.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a shoe called a "rose" still stinks.
Your proposal is interesting design space (it doesn't "stink"), but they're not guildmages. Should they replace them? That's a tough call; people expect guildmages because, in many sets, Guildmages were both fun and good. No guildmages in Ravnica is like no lords in a core set... possible, but disappointing.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But a shoe called a "rose" still stinks.
Your proposal is interesting design space (it doesn't "stink"), but they're not guildmages. Should they replace them? That's a tough call; people expect guildmages because, in many sets, Guildmages were both fun and good. No guildmages in Ravnica is like no lords in a core set... possible, but disappointing.
Would you be against both cycles in the same set?
Okay then, let's call these "Guildwizards," then
And yes, I am against having both, because while they approach it differently, they fill the same role.
I've never thought of the Guildmages as being a requirement for a Ravnica set anyway. They're neat, but so are charms and the new CCDD cycle, and charms haven't made a return.
First, "Guildwizards" doesn't do the trick; it's obvious what you're doing. Maybe give them a filler name here, and think about it?
Second, they do not fill the same role. Guildmages, since Mirage, have been utility creatures with activated abilities. Ravnica Guildmage are 2-color 2/2s for 2 mana with 2 abilities with activation costs. The originals were designed to be obvious mana sinks (in a set w/ bouncelands no less), while later guildmages have been less obvious mana sinks (often with 1 cheap and 1 expensive ability... but yes, the cycle is not as strict as it could be).
Your proposals are Izzet-style "Spell matter" triggered abilities that cost extra mana (this is really feel bad, by the way, as sometimes I can't pay the extra mana. Having one of these out actually slows down the game early game.
Are Guildmages essential to a Ravnica set? Perhaps not. However, I should point out that despite the recent cycle being far less fun and impactful in limited than the original cycle (overcosted abilities w/ tap requirement limiting their mana sink potential), the design space is both fun and interesting.
Your "guildwizards" require the same kind of design-work (IE, 2 different abilities), but because they depend upon the color of the spell you play AND you having extra mana to "kick" it. Because they're 2 color, but activate off of the color of the spell you play, then you're encouraged to build a deck with 2-color spells to activate both abilities (at an additional cost of 2 more mana each spell), but we both know that even in the best constructed situation this is going to lead to you drawing a monocolor spell that activates only 1 of the two triggers (for 1 extra mana of course)... and there's a good chance it's the one you're not wanting.
I don't want to say that this isn't design space worth investigating... but I think it's clear that it is design space that yields feel bad moments in constructed and feel very bad moments in limited.
That said, this latest crop of Guildmages feels kind of redundant and restrictive. If you're working on a new Ravnica block, might I suggest trying to create a new, more traditional, Guildmage that plays different than the exiting ones (IE, with different abilities). Design a guildmage that's fun, such that you can use it any time you want; rather than a Guildwizard that will do nothing as you draw a land late game.
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Niv's Guildmage UR
Creature - Human Wizard U
2/2
Whenever you cast a red spell, you may pay U. If you do, target creature an opponent controls doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.
Whenever you cast a blue spell, you may pay R. If you do, target creature attacks during its controller's next combat if able.
So here are the changes:
The naming scheme this time is Guildleader's Guilmage.
The abilities this time are triggered, not activated. Each ability triggers off of casting a spell of one of the guild's colors, and allows you to pay mana of the other color to add an additional effect. This rewards players for playing spells of the guild's colors by sorta turning monocolored spells into gold spells. It also lets the player enhance gold spells with both triggered abilities.
At this point, the only challenge I'm running into is finding enough triggered effects at an appropriate power level to cost one extra mana of a different color. I'm looking for suggestions here, so any idea is a good one.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
As for the abilities, I've settled on a few that I'm happy with. I'll try to post them later.
If it comes to that, then I'd at least like to keep the costs the same on the same guildmage. That way one color doesn't feel favored over the other by being easier to reward. For example:
Vannifar's Guildmage GU
Creature - Mutant Wizard
2/2
Whenever you cast a blue spell, you may pay 1G. If you do, put two +1/+1 counters on target creature.
Whenever you cast a green spell, you may pay 1U. If you do, target creature has base power and toughness 3/3 until end of turn.
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Maybe go with champions instead of leaders, both to avoid this issue and to give those guys spotlight time?
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Innovation for innovation's sake is not necessarily a good thing. Fortunately there is plenty of design space to explore.
Consider:
1. Selesnya Guildmage
2. Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
3. Conclave Guildmage
It seems the design space is clear:
Name Guildmage :symwg::symwg:
Creature - Elf Shaman (U)
[small mana cost],T: Small Effect
[large mana cost],T: Big Effect
2/2
For example:
Renewal Guildmage :symwg::symwg:
Creature - Elf Shaman (U)
:symwg:,T: Each player creates a 1/1 green saproling creature token.
1:symwg::symwg:,T: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller creates a 3/3 green beast token.
2/2
The design space here is pretty clear; it's full hybrid, so you don't need to run it in a 2 color deck to get both effects. It taps, so it's not an absolute mana sink (although I'd be for a non-tapper as well)
Your "spells matter" design might be okay, but I don't think they occupy the same design space as guildmages.
It's not as though my model is problematic or plays poorly. They're just different. And yeah, we can fiddle around with different combinations of hybrid and gold and tap abilities and repeatable abilities and such until the death of Magic, but I can't be the only one who thinks the third time around has been disappointingly stale. I want to experiment with Ravnica and explore new ideas. Personally, I think that the inclusion of guildmages at all is a bit tame.
Your proposal is interesting design space (it doesn't "stink"), but they're not guildmages. Should they replace them? That's a tough call; people expect guildmages because, in many sets, Guildmages were both fun and good. No guildmages in Ravnica is like no lords in a core set... possible, but disappointing.
Would you be against both cycles in the same set?
And yes, I am against having both, because while they approach it differently, they fill the same role.
I've never thought of the Guildmages as being a requirement for a Ravnica set anyway. They're neat, but so are charms and the new CCDD cycle, and charms haven't made a return.
Second, they do not fill the same role. Guildmages, since Mirage, have been utility creatures with activated abilities. Ravnica Guildmage are 2-color 2/2s for 2 mana with 2 abilities with activation costs. The originals were designed to be obvious mana sinks (in a set w/ bouncelands no less), while later guildmages have been less obvious mana sinks (often with 1 cheap and 1 expensive ability... but yes, the cycle is not as strict as it could be).
Your proposals are Izzet-style "Spell matter" triggered abilities that cost extra mana (this is really feel bad, by the way, as sometimes I can't pay the extra mana. Having one of these out actually slows down the game early game.
Are Guildmages essential to a Ravnica set? Perhaps not. However, I should point out that despite the recent cycle being far less fun and impactful in limited than the original cycle (overcosted abilities w/ tap requirement limiting their mana sink potential), the design space is both fun and interesting.
Your "guildwizards" require the same kind of design-work (IE, 2 different abilities), but because they depend upon the color of the spell you play AND you having extra mana to "kick" it. Because they're 2 color, but activate off of the color of the spell you play, then you're encouraged to build a deck with 2-color spells to activate both abilities (at an additional cost of 2 more mana each spell), but we both know that even in the best constructed situation this is going to lead to you drawing a monocolor spell that activates only 1 of the two triggers (for 1 extra mana of course)... and there's a good chance it's the one you're not wanting.
I don't want to say that this isn't design space worth investigating... but I think it's clear that it is design space that yields feel bad moments in constructed and feel very bad moments in limited.
That said, this latest crop of Guildmages feels kind of redundant and restrictive. If you're working on a new Ravnica block, might I suggest trying to create a new, more traditional, Guildmage that plays different than the exiting ones (IE, with different abilities). Design a guildmage that's fun, such that you can use it any time you want; rather than a Guildwizard that will do nothing as you draw a land late game.