Suppose there were a race of Trolls on some unknown plane that began to develop not only the sentience many trolls posses, but also higher reasoning and sophistication. They move out of the forests and begin to adapt into society, of full elegance, refinement, and poise. Their higher reasoning leads them to a normal law and order lifestyle, with society pushing for analysis, understanding, and sensibility. They create, refine, and study for further development at both a social and personal level.
We thus have a Blue-aligned race that happens to be Trolls. Further supposing that their sophistication of life did not change their biology, we would need to in some way emulate their classical regeneration / healing ability.
Given that blue does not get regeneration or indestructibility, how can we replicate or emulate their nature within blue and blue alone?
I've been stuck on this for a while.
I specifically don't want off color costs ( ) or color bleeds.
I want to find a way, within Blue's pie, that it can represent the Troll's ability to heal.
Ideas? Thoughts?
Sidenote: I know there are a few random blue cards that have regeneration and indestructible abilities, these are either special circumstances or go directly against the color pie and should be ignored for this thought experiment
A flicker effect (exile and instantly return to the battlefield) is absolutely in blue's domain and would do basically the same thing as regenerate. Delaying the return to the end step would also let them survive board wipes.
Flavor-wise, it would be like they turn to mist or something in response to damage and then reform. It could be like suspend, where they are exiled for a number of turns equal to the damage they took, so the harder they're hit, the longer it takes them to reform.
Alternately, activated Gaseous Form apes regen pretty well. Either way, you could have your Trolls reform via turning to water or mist when hurt and then coalescing back into their solid forms when danger passes.
Maybe the ability given by Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, could be flavored as a sort of "Kill me quickly / with overwhelming force, or I'll just grow back and you'll have to try again"? Unlike persist/undying/regen/indestructible/etc., that's actually clearly part of blue's color pie, and it's not necessarily too overpowered to boot.
The bigger issue might be the impact on the set as a whole: 1) It's not a particularly compelling ability, since you can't really build around it; 2) You'd probably want to include more incidental abilities that target that you can combine with others to kill the trolls (more Forge Devil and Cinder Pyromancer), plus things like Diabolic Edict, and 3) Even then, giving a whole subset of the set an ability that invalidates lots of traditional removal might be dangerous.
In general, though, frankly I'm concerned about your very premise. Looking for a regen-type ability seems to lean towards defensive abilities, and if you're not careful then that seems like it implies 1 and 3 no matter what the specifics of the mechanic are.
Also, in general you're looking for a creature mechanic in blue, which is tricky. Maybe levelup? That's primarily blue, and you could stretch it as the idea of trolls getting tougher as they age. Or maybe a level-up variant that removes counters when they take damage? It'd be hard to make sure it's not frustrating to play against.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
In general, though, frankly I'm concerned about your very premise. Looking for a regen-type ability seems to lean towards defensive abilities, and if you're not careful then that seems like it implies 1 and 3 no matter what the specifics of the mechanic are.
I'm not really looking for a set mechanic, more just an ability that would appear on a couple of cards. It wouldn't be omnipresent by any means, but I was considering blue and/or white trolls.
White is easy (it gains indestructible uEOT), but blue provided an interesting thought experiment of "How could I even do that?"
I'm really wanting to mimic "it heals itself" without color bleeding the ability at all.
Flicker effect is a really good one.
Timing or triggering the Flicker could represent "it died, but it comes back" well, but stay true to what blue does within the game.
Alternately, activated Gaseous Form apes regen pretty well.
Just preventing the damage seems like a decent way to go, but this ability is seen very seldom within blue. I honestly wonder if damage prevention is really within blue's pie? There's literally only 15 instances of "prevent" in all of true blue, and only 2 that have been printed since Modern. That said, it does feel like something blue could do if done right. Specifically, something along the lines of Guard Gomazoa. Is Gomazoa in line with blue's pie? Could it exist without defender?
This works great for mimicking the ability against spells, like very solidly. But it would still need something to also represent the ability of when it becomes blocked by something that kills it.
If you attach a Kira ability/cost to Gomazoa's prevent ability, does it push it more solidly into blue's territory?
"Whenever ~troll~ would be dealt damage for the first time each turn, prevent that damage unless any player pays {2}."
Would this be solidly blue?
(Sidenote: This ability would work perfectly in my world)
edit: that last ability would lead to some confusion when there are multiple blockers, and I hate confusing designs. Feels like a good direction, but needs more work.
"Whenever X would die, instead, put it into your library 2nd (or 3rd) from the top."
(...) Wayward Soul.
Ohhhhh. I like that. A lot.
That is definitely in blue's pie, represents the real-world ability well, and isn't something we see everyday to boot.
I think you've nailed down something that fits the mold and concepts perfectly.
I'm not ready to call it quits, since there's always more great ideas, but this gets a 10 of 10 from me.
You could have them get exiled, then returned flipped face down and have morph or megamorph. Morphing represents them healing back to their original form, the morph form is their injured bodies and as such is only a 2/2. This also means they can only regenerate 1/turn unless they pay to unmorph before paying to flicker again.
That's a very interesting way to basically reconstruct how Wayward Soul worked before the combat damage timing change. For full regeneration theming, it needs to be a replacement rather than a death trigger, you don't want your trolls going to the grave and then coming back, that's not regeneration, it's reanimation.
If I may be so bold:
Thinking Man's Troll2UU
Creature - Troll Advisor U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it on top of its owner's library.
3/3
Guardian of Highbridge2U
Creature - Troll Illusion
When ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it. U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it into its owner's library, second from the top.
4/4
You could also extend the activated delayed-trigger to a flicker, that would mimic regeneration more closely, bringing the Troll back immediately, but is also significantly more powerful, and I feel like blue has enough going for it, it doesn't need super regeneration as well.
Yeah, it should lose "the next time".
Much like when/whenever, the ability would be worded to assume it won't happen more than once.
Wondering how strong it would be if we lost the cost.
On one hand, no activation makes it stronger when you need it.. but you'll also not always want it to come back, but will be forced to.
Bodach Omenreader 3UU
Creature - Troll Shaman
When Bodach Omenreader enters the battlefield, scry 3.
When Bodach Omenreader would die, instead put it into its owner's library second from the top.
3/5
It'll take some playing with, but I think the ability is spot on.
Thank you guys.
It mostly started as a brain excercise.. but now I think I'm sold on using it!
Thinking Man's Troll2UU
Creature - Troll Advisor U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it on top of its owner's library.
3/3
Good catch. But does it have to say “The next time...”? Couldn’t it just say “If Card Name would die this turn, instead...”?
It doesn't have to say "next time", but this wording does prevent it from triggering multiple times in a turn from one activation. I'm sure there are some corner cases where that might be relevant. Just hedging my bets.
Thinking Man's Troll2UU
Creature - Troll Advisor U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it on top of its owner's library.
3/3
Good catch. But does it have to say “The next time...”? Couldn’t it just say “If Card Name would die this turn, instead...”?
It doesn't have to say "next time", but this wording does prevent it from triggering multiple times in a turn from one activation. I'm sure there are some corner cases where that might be relevant. Just hedging my bets.
Right. I overlooked how changing it to an activated ability changed things a little.
I'd suggest the same thing here, as with other flavorful bends to the conventional distribution of effects (such as giving white creatures Haste).
So long as you're using a light tough, to preserve the sanctity of the effect, then you should be able to extend regeneration to blue creatures with amazing results. It's a very well-supported blend in all aspects of fantasy, and functionally, can fit very well to counter-balance traditional blind spots within the blue board advantage.
I greatly prefer to design cards that could realistically be printed in the real world.
Your exampled white haste, for instance, has been printed a grand total of exactly 1 time. That one instance was a very special circumstance, where they wanted a legendary angel "that has ALL of the abilities". Even with that "all abilities", haste and trample were still hotly contested, and ended up being left only because - explicitly - white shouldn't have those abilities and it made it quite exceptional.
Exceptional cards can exist, but they should be absolutely rare and have a very strong case as to why they should be exceptional. Otherwise you're probably not just bleeding or bending the color pie, you're breaking it.
If you can represent the ability and concept without breaking the color pie, you absolutely should. Which is the entire point of this whole discussion, and ultimately proved to create a beautiful ability that stayed within the pie and represented the concept well. A good designer, which most of us here try to be, doesn't need to break the pie to get what they want. They just have to be creative and think outside of the box.
Exceptional cards can exist, but they should be absolutely rare and have a very strong case as to why they should be exceptional. Otherwise you're probably not just bleeding or bending the color pie, you're breaking it.
Just providing my most intelligible input. It seems more like blending to me, as friendly colors are friendly. Although I can't say that I agree with all the friendly color assignments, as green seems like as much an enemy color to white, as red is argued for being. I actually think red pulls white out of more trouble, than green doesn't put white into. Take natural disasters for example, vs lucky or desperate impulses that breed power-plays victories. Given this, I would suggest that white's truest ally colors are red and blue.
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We thus have a Blue-aligned race that happens to be Trolls. Further supposing that their sophistication of life did not change their biology, we would need to in some way emulate their classical regeneration / healing ability.
Given that blue does not get regeneration or indestructibility, how can we replicate or emulate their nature within blue and blue alone?
I've been stuck on this for a while.
I specifically don't want off color costs ( ) or color bleeds.
I want to find a way, within Blue's pie, that it can represent the Troll's ability to heal.
Ideas? Thoughts?
Sidenote: I know there are a few random blue cards that have regeneration and indestructible abilities, these are either special circumstances or go directly against the color pie and should be ignored for this thought experiment
No longer staff here.
Flavor-wise, it would be like they turn to mist or something in response to damage and then reform. It could be like suspend, where they are exiled for a number of turns equal to the damage they took, so the harder they're hit, the longer it takes them to reform.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
The bigger issue might be the impact on the set as a whole: 1) It's not a particularly compelling ability, since you can't really build around it; 2) You'd probably want to include more incidental abilities that target that you can combine with others to kill the trolls (more Forge Devil and Cinder Pyromancer), plus things like Diabolic Edict, and 3) Even then, giving a whole subset of the set an ability that invalidates lots of traditional removal might be dangerous.
In general, though, frankly I'm concerned about your very premise. Looking for a regen-type ability seems to lean towards defensive abilities, and if you're not careful then that seems like it implies 1 and 3 no matter what the specifics of the mechanic are.
Also, in general you're looking for a creature mechanic in blue, which is tricky. Maybe level up? That's primarily blue, and you could stretch it as the idea of trolls getting tougher as they age. Or maybe a level-up variant that removes counters when they take damage? It'd be hard to make sure it's not frustrating to play against.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
White is easy (it gains indestructible uEOT), but blue provided an interesting thought experiment of "How could I even do that?"
I'm really wanting to mimic "it heals itself" without color bleeding the ability at all.
Flicker effect is a really good one.
Timing or triggering the Flicker could represent "it died, but it comes back" well, but stay true to what blue does within the game.
Just preventing the damage seems like a decent way to go, but this ability is seen very seldom within blue. I honestly wonder if damage prevention is really within blue's pie? There's literally only 15 instances of "prevent" in all of true blue, and only 2 that have been printed since Modern. That said, it does feel like something blue could do if done right. Specifically, something along the lines of Guard Gomazoa. Is Gomazoa in line with blue's pie? Could it exist without defender?
This works great for mimicking the ability against spells, like very solidly. But it would still need something to also represent the ability of when it becomes blocked by something that kills it.
If you attach a Kira ability/cost to Gomazoa's prevent ability, does it push it more solidly into blue's territory?
"Whenever ~troll~ would be dealt damage for the first time each turn, prevent that damage unless any player pays {2}."
Would this be solidly blue?
(Sidenote: This ability would work perfectly in my world)
edit: that last ability would lead to some confusion when there are multiple blockers, and I hate confusing designs. Feels like a good direction, but needs more work.
No longer staff here.
"Whenever X would die, instead, put it into your library 2nd (or 3rd) from the top."
I think that captures the "slowly regrowing" ability."
Another precursor would be Wayward Soul.
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU
That is definitely in blue's pie, represents the real-world ability well, and isn't something we see everyday to boot.
I think you've nailed down something that fits the mold and concepts perfectly.
I'm not ready to call it quits, since there's always more great ideas, but this gets a 10 of 10 from me.
No longer staff here.
If you wanted to keyword it, maybe call it Reform?
Reform # When this creature dies, its owner puts it into their library # from the top.
If I may be so bold:
Thinking Man's Troll 2UU
Creature - Troll Advisor
U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it on top of its owner's library.
3/3
Guardian of Highbridge 2U
Creature - Troll Illusion
When ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it.
U: The next time ~ would die this turn, instead put it into its owner's library, second from the top.
4/4
You could also extend the activated delayed-trigger to a flicker, that would mimic regeneration more closely, bringing the Troll back immediately, but is also significantly more powerful, and I feel like blue has enough going for it, it doesn't need super regeneration as well.
Good catch. But does it have to say “The next time...”? Couldn’t it just say “If Card Name would die this turn, instead...”?
Much like when/whenever, the ability would be worded to assume it won't happen more than once.
Wondering how strong it would be if we lost the cost.
On one hand, no activation makes it stronger when you need it.. but you'll also not always want it to come back, but will be forced to.
Creature - Troll Shaman
When Bodach Omenreader enters the battlefield, scry 3.
When Bodach Omenreader would die, instead put it into its owner's library second from the top.
3/5
Thank you guys.
It mostly started as a brain excercise.. but now I think I'm sold on using it!
No longer staff here.
It doesn't have to say "next time", but this wording does prevent it from triggering multiple times in a turn from one activation. I'm sure there are some corner cases where that might be relevant. Just hedging my bets.
Right. I overlooked how changing it to an activated ability changed things a little.
So long as you're using a light tough, to preserve the sanctity of the effect, then you should be able to extend regeneration to blue creatures with amazing results. It's a very well-supported blend in all aspects of fantasy, and functionally, can fit very well to counter-balance traditional blind spots within the blue board advantage.
Your exampled white haste, for instance, has been printed a grand total of exactly 1 time. That one instance was a very special circumstance, where they wanted a legendary angel "that has ALL of the abilities". Even with that "all abilities", haste and trample were still hotly contested, and ended up being left only because - explicitly - white shouldn't have those abilities and it made it quite exceptional.
Exceptional cards can exist, but they should be absolutely rare and have a very strong case as to why they should be exceptional. Otherwise you're probably not just bleeding or bending the color pie, you're breaking it.
If you can represent the ability and concept without breaking the color pie, you absolutely should. Which is the entire point of this whole discussion, and ultimately proved to create a beautiful ability that stayed within the pie and represented the concept well. A good designer, which most of us here try to be, doesn't need to break the pie to get what they want. They just have to be creative and think outside of the box.
No longer staff here.
Just providing my most intelligible input. It seems more like blending to me, as friendly colors are friendly. Although I can't say that I agree with all the friendly color assignments, as green seems like as much an enemy color to white, as red is argued for being. I actually think red pulls white out of more trouble, than green doesn't put white into. Take natural disasters for example, vs lucky or desperate impulses that breed power-plays victories. Given this, I would suggest that white's truest ally colors are red and blue.