So while working on the Primal creature's ability in m other thread, one idea popped into mind and since it is a different system altogether, I made a new thread for this system.
Wally the Wall (Name is just a placeholder to make an example)
4RR
Creature - Wall
Defender
Combat is dealt to ~ in the form of damage counters. Once has damage counters equal to or higher than 's toughness, sacrifice it.
0/22
There are decks that can abuse this such as Doran and Arcades, but everything has an issue at one point or another. May be worded weirdly but i think you will still understand.
I think I'd rather stick with "standard" counters for this kind of mechanic like Rock Hydra, Lichenthorpe or anything with Phantom in the name just to name a few. I would even entertain bringing back Frankenstein's Monster before adding yet another counter.
What I'm basically saying is, I don't see the point of adding a new counter when cards with similar mechanics already exist. After all, WotC screwed up at least once on managing their counters.
I think I'd rather stick with "standard" counters for this kind of mechanic like Rock Hydra, Lichenthorpe or anything with Phantom in the name just to name a few. I would even entertain bringing back Frankenstein's Monster before adding yet another counter.
What I'm basically saying is, I don't see the point of adding a new counter when cards with similar mechanics already exist. After all, WotC screwed up at least once on managing their counters.
There are a lot of counter types, in most cases, they refer to the mechanic of the card. -1/-1, +1/+1 and Charge counters are by far the most common, however there are other cards with other mechanics (Poison and Experience are actually given to the player)
so the actual type of counter does not matter(except for -1/-1 and +1/+1) The damage counter was strictly to explain the mechanic.
Would it not be simpler to just bring back -0/-1 counters, and have the cards take damage in the form of those counters? It changes the functionality a bit, but it allows -x/-x effects to function cumulatively with the damage.
Actually, from a mechanical perspective, changing the loyalty rules to be for permanents accomplishes EXACTLY what you're going for mechanically. Like, if that wall started with 22 loyalty, it would lose those counters when it took damage, without reducing toughness, AND it would die to SBEs when they ran out. As a bonus, by changing the rules, EVERTHING gets handled with the elegant typeline "___ enters the battlefield with x loyalty counters".
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Would it not be simpler to just bring back -0/-1 counters, and have the cards take damage in the form of those counters? It changes the functionality a bit, but it allows -x/-x effects to function cumulatively with the damage.
Actually, from a mechanical perspective, changing the loyalty rules to be for permanents accomplishes EXACTLY what you're going for mechanically. Like, if that wall started with 22 loyalty, it would lose those counters when it took damage, without reducing toughness, AND it would die to SBEs when they ran out. As a bonus, by changing the rules, EVERTHING gets handled with the elegant typeline "___ enters the battlefield with x loyalty counters".
Oh yea i forgot about tbe counters that only reduced one stat.
I dont pws subgractvloyalty when they take damge adoe due to SBE when they have 0. But tbe type of cointer they jave does not really matter. It coild have been a charge counter for the same effect.
Because of Standard: when you switch from using +1/+1 counters in one set to -1/-1 counters in another, no problem, because they cancel out - any effect putting one type on a creature that has another just results in only the bigger number predominating. If you use -0/-1 counters, not only can you not sensibly use the other altering counters in the same set, but you will get situations when a creature has two counters on it and as a result gets +1/+0. Very confusing to look at.
And because of expectations: We're all so used to the counters being what they are in the modern era - Lighting Serpent, the last example, was over 10 years ago and basically only used counters as a kludge to not have to get +X/+0 until end of turn from a trigger that looks back on casting - and -0/-1 would be extremely jarring and aesthetically unappealing.
I think I'd rather stick with "standard" counters for this kind of mechanic like Rock Hydra, Lichenthorpe or anything with Phantom in the name just to name a few. I would even entertain bringing back Frankenstein's Monster before adding yet another counter.
What I'm basically saying is, I don't see the point of adding a new counter when cards with similar mechanics already exist. After all, WotC screwed up at least once on managing their counters.
There are a lot of counter types, in most cases, they refer to the mechanic of the card. -1/-1, +1/+1 and Charge counters are by far the most common, however there are other cards with other mechanics (Poison and Experience are actually given to the player)
so the actual type of counter does not matter(except for -1/-1 and +1/+1) The damage counter was strictly to explain the mechanic.
I'm fully aware of the other counters in Magic but it seems you're missing my point. void_nothing outlines it very clearly. It's Frankenstein's Monster (seriously, look at the card) and WotC has already proven botching consistency with counters with Isareth.
TLDR; You don't need a new counter type when there are cards with similar mechanics that do the job quite well with existing counters.
On the other hand, I've played games of Commander with Ebon Praetor and nobody died.
Or, "I think WotC leans to far towards simplicity and it's fine to design your own custom cards with a higher level of complexity. Good game design is about making sure complexity is worth the added depth, not just avoiding complexity in all situations."
Wally the Wall (Name is just a placeholder to make an example)
4RR
Creature - Wall
Defender
Combat is dealt to ~ in the form of damage counters. Once has damage counters equal to or higher than 's toughness, sacrifice it.
0/22
There are decks that can abuse this such as Doran and Arcades, but everything has an issue at one point or another. May be worded weirdly but i think you will still understand.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
What I'm basically saying is, I don't see the point of adding a new counter when cards with similar mechanics already exist. After all, WotC screwed up at least once on managing their counters.
There are a lot of counter types, in most cases, they refer to the mechanic of the card. -1/-1, +1/+1 and Charge counters are by far the most common, however there are other cards with other mechanics (Poison and Experience are actually given to the player)
so the actual type of counter does not matter(except for -1/-1 and +1/+1) The damage counter was strictly to explain the mechanic.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Actually, from a mechanical perspective, changing the loyalty rules to be for permanents accomplishes EXACTLY what you're going for mechanically. Like, if that wall started with 22 loyalty, it would lose those counters when it took damage, without reducing toughness, AND it would die to SBEs when they ran out. As a bonus, by changing the rules, EVERTHING gets handled with the elegant typeline "___ enters the battlefield with x loyalty counters".
My Friend Code is: 0146-9645-8893
Oh yea i forgot about tbe counters that only reduced one stat.
I dont pws subgractvloyalty when they take damge adoe due to SBE when they have 0. But tbe type of cointer they jave does not really matter. It coild have been a charge counter for the same effect.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
This mechanic doesn't have a great amount of legs anyhow. Just use Phyrexian Hydra-ish text in a -1/-1 counter block for a few cards.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Rkght now, a wall does not matter. But what is there was a 4/20 armored dragon. I would not want the power to lessen.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
And because of expectations: We're all so used to the counters being what they are in the modern era - Lighting Serpent, the last example, was over 10 years ago and basically only used counters as a kludge to not have to get +X/+0 until end of turn from a trigger that looks back on casting - and -0/-1 would be extremely jarring and aesthetically unappealing.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I'm fully aware of the other counters in Magic but it seems you're missing my point. void_nothing outlines it very clearly. It's Frankenstein's Monster (seriously, look at the card) and WotC has already proven botching consistency with counters with Isareth.
TLDR; You don't need a new counter type when there are cards with similar mechanics that do the job quite well with existing counters.
Or, "I think WotC leans to far towards simplicity and it's fine to design your own custom cards with a higher level of complexity. Good game design is about making sure complexity is worth the added depth, not just avoiding complexity in all situations."
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