Tezzeret, Perfection Seeker2UB (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Up to one target artifact becomes a 5/5 artifact creature until your next turn.
-2: Target nonartifact creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
-4: You get an emblem with "All nonland permanents you control and all cards you own that aren't on the battlefield are artifacts in addition to their other types."
Saheeli, Filigree Artist2UR (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Saheeli
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Untap up to one target artifact or creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
-2: Create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types.
-6: You get an emblem with "Whenever a nontoken artifact or creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may create a token that's a copy of that permanent, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste."
Tezzeret, Perfection Seeker1UB (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Up to one target artifact becomes a 5/5 artifact creature until your next turn.
-2: Target nonartifact creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
-4: You get an emblem with "All spells and permanents you control and all cards you own that aren't on the battlefield are artifacts in addition to their other types."
Saheeli, Filigree Artist2UR (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Saheeli
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Untap up to one target artifact or creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
-2: Create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste and loses all other abilities.
-6: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, you may create a token that's a copy of target artifact." and "Whenever you cast a spell, you may create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types."
I really like the numerical them going on with Tezzeret's first two abilities.
Tezzeret's emblem is disappointing right now. Okay, it turns all your stuff into artifacts, but that is just the setup for something cool. The ultimate wants to be the pay-off.
Also this turns your lands into artifacts.... which is dangerous. Incidental artifact removal now can attack your mana base.
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Saheeli overall works better - showing how you get artifacts on the battlefield for your synergies, but also as something that has value by itself.
I'm not a fan that the creature copy tokens are actually different: One erases abilities, the ultimate/emblem triggered ability doesn't. This is asking for mixups. A consistent approach at least for all creature copies made by this card is in order - and since the artifact copying ability could copy the copied tokens even further... It seems all token copies should keep their abilities.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I'm thinking some really broken things can be done with Tezzeret's ult. It basically makes your whole deck artifact tutor-able. I don't know what can be done with that but I'm sure something broken can be done. I'd make the ult cost 5 so that you at least have to work a few turns for it.
Look really nice together. Timmy likes the +1. Spike likes the -2. And Johnny likes the -4.
But I think this version of Tezz might be too brutal for Standard and is downright Vintage playable. Between the first two abilities, it's extremely versatile. And, barring efficient removal in hand, I could see opponents getting crushed between a 5/5 creature that can attack on turn three (possibly with abilities) and Dismember. The ult is just gravy. If you pull it off, shenanigans are sure to happen.
Doesn't the final ability on Tezz also do strange things to non-permanent spells?
Yeah that was my concern. It's a painter's servant like affect. I'm sure there are cards which could do nutty things with it. I just can't think of it. I'd assume the thread creator has plans for it because the more logical ult would be just to make all your permanents artifact like. That'd make more sense since Tezzeret's first two abilities only manipulates things on the board anyway.
Doesn't the final ability on Tezz also do strange things to non-permanent spells?
Yeah. There's a reason why Conspiracy and the like are restricted to things like subtypes and colors. An actual card-type version of that mechanic would place the card in silver-border territory. Even applying such a mechanic to subtypes with rules, such as auras, would be a huge rules no-no.
Overall, Tezzeret is much too pushed to be a 3 mana planeswalker. He makes Liliana of the Veil look like chump change, given that he basically has the abilities of a 5 mana planeswalker. Heck, he'd still be strong even with +2 CMC.
I included spells in Tezz's ultimate because of the weird and potent shenanigans it would lead to, but based on the comments here, I should exclude spells from it and probably raise Tezz's mana cost?
Also I like how Tezz's card is so apparently strong that Saheeli gets no attention outside of SecretInfiltrator's post.
I like Saheeli's -6 and am kinda meh on the -2. And yeah, Tezz's ult should probably only hit permanents in order to not potentially break something deep in the rules.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
Her emblem doesn't seem like "her". Something like "Spells you cast have improvise." would be much cleaner and flavor appropriate imo.
Except that that's the exact thing that Saheeli's Artistry does. Also Saheeli's skill-set is concentrated mainly in creating artifact replicas and transmuting artifacts. Her ultimate does the former.
Also how is an emblem that represents Saheeli's niche less flavour appropriate than a generic ability that you could argue for even a Tezzeret card to have?
Her emblem doesn't seem like "her". Something like "Spells you cast have improvise." would be much cleaner and flavor appropriate imo.
Except that that's the exact thing that Saheeli's Artistry does. Also Saheeli's skill-set is concentrated mainly in creating artifact replicas and transmuting artifacts. Her ultimate does the former.
Also how is an emblem that represents Saheeli's niche less flavour appropriate than a generic ability that you could argue for even a Tezzeret card to have?
I'm aware of her signature spell. It isn't the effect that isn't like her, it's the trigger that causes it to happen that isn't like her - that is, casting spells. Not only does it not match her, but it doesn't even feel Izzet (triggering off of instant and sorcery spells only) or Jeskai (prowess), as a concession. If her emblem must be Saheeli's Artistry, then it should be an eot trigger rather than a cast trigger.
And this or that character having this or that effect is moot because that's the case in general.
Her emblem doesn't seem like "her". Something like "Spells you cast have improvise." would be much cleaner and flavor appropriate imo.
Except that that's the exact thing that Saheeli's Artistry does. Also Saheeli's skill-set is concentrated mainly in creating artifact replicas and transmuting artifacts. Her ultimate does the former.
Also how is an emblem that represents Saheeli's niche less flavour appropriate than a generic ability that you could argue for even a Tezzeret card to have?
I'm aware of her signature spell. It isn't the effect that isn't like her, it's the trigger that causes it to happen that isn't like her - that is, casting spells. Not only does it not match her, but it doesn't even feel Izzet (triggering off of instant and sorcery spells only) or Jeskai (prowess), as a concession. If her emblem must be Saheeli's Artistry, then it should be an eot trigger rather than a cast trigger.
And this or that character having this or that effect is moot because that's the case in general.
Saheeli can and does use magic to do some of the things she does, so I disagree that casting spells doesn't fit her.
Her emblem doesn't seem like "her". Something like "Spells you cast have improvise." would be much cleaner and flavor appropriate imo.
Except that that's the exact thing that Saheeli's Artistry does. Also Saheeli's skill-set is concentrated mainly in creating artifact replicas and transmuting artifacts. Her ultimate does the former.
Also how is an emblem that represents Saheeli's niche less flavour appropriate than a generic ability that you could argue for even a Tezzeret card to have?
I'm aware of her signature spell. It isn't the effect that isn't like her, it's the trigger that causes it to happen that isn't like her - that is, casting spells. Not only does it not match her, but it doesn't even feel Izzet (triggering off of instant and sorcery spells only) or Jeskai (prowess), as a concession. If her emblem must be Saheeli's Artistry, then it should be an eot trigger rather than a cast trigger.
And this or that character having this or that effect is moot because that's the case in general.
Saheeli can and does use magic to do some of the things she does, so I disagree that casting spells doesn't fit her.
Not much of an argument since everything in Magic involves casting spells, but only certain settings and colors (and combinations thereof) trigger from (or otherwise care about) the casting of spells, and even then only the casting of specific kinds of spells - historic, multicolored, noncreature, etc.
The emblem could also be templates to create an artifact copy of any nontoken artifact or creature that etb under your control.
Her emblem doesn't seem like "her". Something like "Spells you cast have improvise." would be much cleaner and flavor appropriate imo.
Except that that's the exact thing that Saheeli's Artistry does. Also Saheeli's skill-set is concentrated mainly in creating artifact replicas and transmuting artifacts. Her ultimate does the former.
Also how is an emblem that represents Saheeli's niche less flavour appropriate than a generic ability that you could argue for even a Tezzeret card to have?
I'm aware of her signature spell. It isn't the effect that isn't like her, it's the trigger that causes it to happen that isn't like her - that is, casting spells. Not only does it not match her, but it doesn't even feel Izzet (triggering off of instant and sorcery spells only) or Jeskai (prowess), as a concession. If her emblem must be Saheeli's Artistry, then it should be an eot trigger rather than a cast trigger.
And this or that character having this or that effect is moot because that's the case in general.
Saheeli can and does use magic to do some of the things she does, so I disagree that casting spells doesn't fit her.
Not much of an argument since everything in Magic involves casting spells, but only certain settings and colors (and combinations thereof) trigger from (or otherwise care about) the casting of spells, and even then only the casting of specific kinds of spells - historic, multicolored, noncreature, etc.
The emblem could also be templates to create an artifact copy of any nontoken artifact or creature that etb under your control.
So does the Mirrorworks-esque ability I've just given it seem more appropriate to you?
So does the Mirrorworks-esque ability I've just given it seem more appropriate to you?
It does. FTR, I wasn't tying to browbeat you so I hope I didn't come across that way. I was just trying to help refine a couple of cards that I rather like.
So does the Mirrorworks-esque ability I've just given it seem more appropriate to you?
It does. FTR, I wasn't tying to browbeat you so I hope I didn't come across that way. I was just trying to help refine a couple of cards that I rather like.
So what about Tezzeret? Is he fine at 4 mana, or should I push him higher?
Saheeli's ult should say "whenever a nontoken etb..." otherwise it goes infinite. Her second ability feels too similar to the ult. Maybe return an artifact from graveyard? Or draw cards equal to the number of artifacts you control? I dunno.
Saheeli's ult should say "whenever a nontoken etb..." otherwise it goes infinite. Her second ability feels too similar to the ult. Maybe return an artifact from graveyard? Or draw cards equal to the number of artifacts you control? I dunno.
I think I'm satisfied with where both of them are at, but someone else can chime in at any time.
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Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Up to one target artifact becomes a 5/5 artifact creature until your next turn.
-2: Target nonartifact creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
-4: You get an emblem with "All nonland permanents you control and all cards you own that aren't on the battlefield are artifacts in addition to their other types."
Saheeli, Filigree Artist 2UR (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Saheeli
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Untap up to one target artifact or creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
-2: Create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types.
-6: You get an emblem with "Whenever a nontoken artifact or creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may create a token that's a copy of that permanent, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste."
Tezzeret, Perfection Seeker 1UB (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Up to one target artifact becomes a 5/5 artifact creature until your next turn.
-2: Target nonartifact creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
-4: You get an emblem with "All spells and permanents you control and all cards you own that aren't on the battlefield are artifacts in addition to their other types."
Saheeli, Filigree Artist 2UR (M)
Legendary Planeswalker - Saheeli
Starting loyalty: 3
+1: Untap up to one target artifact or creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
-2: Create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste and loses all other abilities.
-6: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, you may create a token that's a copy of target artifact." and "Whenever you cast a spell, you may create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types."
Tezzeret's emblem is disappointing right now. Okay, it turns all your stuff into artifacts, but that is just the setup for something cool. The ultimate wants to be the pay-off.
Also this turns your lands into artifacts.... which is dangerous. Incidental artifact removal now can attack your mana base.
---
Saheeli overall works better - showing how you get artifacts on the battlefield for your synergies, but also as something that has value by itself.
I'm not a fan that the creature copy tokens are actually different: One erases abilities, the ultimate/emblem triggered ability doesn't. This is asking for mixups. A consistent approach at least for all creature copies made by this card is in order - and since the artifact copying ability could copy the copied tokens even further... It seems all token copies should keep their abilities.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Look really nice together. Timmy likes the +1. Spike likes the -2. And Johnny likes the -4.
But I think this version of Tezz might be too brutal for Standard and is downright Vintage playable. Between the first two abilities, it's extremely versatile. And, barring efficient removal in hand, I could see opponents getting crushed between a 5/5 creature that can attack on turn three (possibly with abilities) and Dismember. The ult is just gravy. If you pull it off, shenanigans are sure to happen.
Art is life itself.
Yeah that was my concern. It's a painter's servant like affect. I'm sure there are cards which could do nutty things with it. I just can't think of it. I'd assume the thread creator has plans for it because the more logical ult would be just to make all your permanents artifact like. That'd make more sense since Tezzeret's first two abilities only manipulates things on the board anyway.
Yeah. There's a reason why Conspiracy and the like are restricted to things like subtypes and colors. An actual card-type version of that mechanic would place the card in silver-border territory. Even applying such a mechanic to subtypes with rules, such as auras, would be a huge rules no-no.
Overall, Tezzeret is much too pushed to be a 3 mana planeswalker. He makes Liliana of the Veil look like chump change, given that he basically has the abilities of a 5 mana planeswalker. Heck, he'd still be strong even with +2 CMC.
Also I like how Tezz's card is so apparently strong that Saheeli gets no attention outside of SecretInfiltrator's post.
Art is life itself.
Her -2 could do without haste. Plus it detracts from her +1 ability. I realize it's the red part of the ability, but red could do something else here.
Her emblem doesn't seem like "her". Something like "Spells you cast have improvise." would be much cleaner and flavor appropriate imo.
Except that that's the exact thing that Saheeli's Artistry does. Also Saheeli's skill-set is concentrated mainly in creating artifact replicas and transmuting artifacts. Her ultimate does the former.
Also how is an emblem that represents Saheeli's niche less flavour appropriate than a generic ability that you could argue for even a Tezzeret card to have?
I'm aware of her signature spell. It isn't the effect that isn't like her, it's the trigger that causes it to happen that isn't like her - that is, casting spells. Not only does it not match her, but it doesn't even feel Izzet (triggering off of instant and sorcery spells only) or Jeskai (prowess), as a concession. If her emblem must be Saheeli's Artistry, then it should be an eot trigger rather than a cast trigger.
And this or that character having this or that effect is moot because that's the case in general.
Saheeli can and does use magic to do some of the things she does, so I disagree that casting spells doesn't fit her.
Not much of an argument since everything in Magic involves casting spells, but only certain settings and colors (and combinations thereof) trigger from (or otherwise care about) the casting of spells, and even then only the casting of specific kinds of spells - historic, multicolored, noncreature, etc.
The emblem could also be templates to create an artifact copy of any nontoken artifact or creature that etb under your control.
So does the Mirrorworks-esque ability I've just given it seem more appropriate to you?
It does. FTR, I wasn't tying to browbeat you so I hope I didn't come across that way. I was just trying to help refine a couple of cards that I rather like.
So what about Tezzeret? Is he fine at 4 mana, or should I push him higher?
Saheeli's ult should say "whenever a nontoken etb..." otherwise it goes infinite. Her second ability feels too similar to the ult. Maybe return an artifact from graveyard? Or draw cards equal to the number of artifacts you control? I dunno.
I think I'm satisfied with where both of them are at, but someone else can chime in at any time.