Signs are strong that we will see a new cycle of the original Elder Dragons, possibly plus Ugin and others.
The original cards are all pretty bad and ungainly designs, so let's see what we can preserve while improving on the theme.
The color-intensive costs are not something we see a lot these days so I think I'll go with 4MNO costs instead.
Being 7/7s works for me, that's bigger than the majority of dragons. Obviously they keep flying. I don't think I want to bother with another set of keywords but it's possible.
The only mechanical consistency they had was the MNO upkeep cost. I'm going to take a hint from the Primeval dragons (Rith, the Awakener etc.) and change this into an attack trigger.
We got some hints of personalities (other than Vaevictis) in today's story, to go with whatever old lore they had.
Arcades Sabboth, the Builder4GWU
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Arcades Sabboth, the Builder attacks, you may pay GWU. If you do, you may look at the top three cards of your library and put a permanent card from among them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
7/7
Chromium Rhuell, the Arbiter4WUB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Chromium Rhuell, the Arbiter attacks, you may pay WUB. If you do, choose up to one target permanent and up to one card in a graveyard and return those cards to their owners' hands.
7/7
Nicol Bolas, the Schemer4UBR
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Nicol Bolas, the Schemer attacks, you may pay UBR. If you do, the defending player reveals their hand. You choose a nonland card from that player's hand and exile it. You may cast it without paying its mana cost for as long as it remains exiled.
7/7
Vaevictis Asmadi, the Destroyer4BRG
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Vaevictis Asmadi, the Destroyer attacks, you may pay BRG. If you do, destroy target permanent and Vaevictis gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is that permanent's converted mana cost.
7/7
Palladia-Mors, the Consumer4RGW
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Palladia-Mors, the Consumer attacks, you may pay RGW. If you do, for each land defending player controls, gain 1 life and add one mana of any color. Until end of turn, you don't lose this mana as steps and phases end.
7/7
Happy to hear any ideas you have for changing these, using different cycle mechanics, or adding Ugin or others. I'm intrigued to see if they try to have Bolas and Ugin mirrored, and also have Bolas or both of them fit into a cycle with the other four.
Yeah, there's definitely imbalance here that needs to be addressed.
Nicol Bolas and Arcades Sabboth look weaker than the others. Discard effects are notoriously unreliable by the point at which you're attacking with a 7-drop, and the latter needs support to approach reliability. Palladia-Mors also suffers from the design assumption that this dragon-among-dragons should somehow not be your deck's curve-topper or main threat.
Chromium might benefit from just putting a creature from your graveyard onto the battlefield. Even then, he'd still be weaker than Sheoldred, Whispering One at the same CMC.
Vaevectis almost looks over-tuned compared to the rest, though trample seems like a great addition here, actually. If I spend that much mana on a creature that demands even more mana, then it should very well end the game rather than just be a value-generator.
Thanks for the feedback! Sort of sounds like you are evaluating these with 60-card Constructed in mind - I am gearing them more towards the type of EDH where incremental advantage on your 7-drop commander is totally fine.
Arcades can go up to 7 cards to look at, maybe?
I thought I was being clever on Chromium in combining Raise Dead effects and bounce. Straight reanimation didn't seem quite right to me. What if he like cast Balance on the defending player or something? Not all that great as a repeatable effect...
I was thinking about having Bolas exile the top card of library as well, which would be ok I guess. Or hit each opponent whenever he attacks.
I did consider trample with Vaevictis but having it natively breaks the cycle and gaining it in the ability was kind of weird. I guess he could just damage the player for that much, but trample is sort of "better" for commander damage.
Palladia is pretty phoned-in. Some kind of mass fight or just power-damage with lifegain would be cool but having straight removal on two of the cycle is weird. Naya kind of has boring tendencies.
Thanks for the feedback! Sort of sounds like you are evaluating these with 60-card Constructed in mind - I am gearing them more towards the type of EDH where incremental advantage on your 7-drop commander is totally fine.
Incidentally, I was speaking from an EDH perspective as well. That's why I was assuming that we get the opportunity to cast a 7-drop regularly in the first place.
Don't get too roped in by your own choices. Sure, you decided that they can only have flying, but don't let that prevent you from making these creatures a little more interesting. Cycles don't necessarily need perfect 5-way symmetry. Likewise, if you're afraid of veering too close to the primeval dragons, then try distancing yourself from the attacking/combat damage template.
Likewise, if you're afraid of veering too close to the primeval dragons, then try distancing yourself from the attacking/combat damage template.
Yes. imo, the XXYYZZ mana costs and XYZ upkeep costs would make them feel like the original Elder Dragons rather than the prime dragons. But loosen up the cycle by varying the triggers/activations.
Likewise, if you're afraid of veering too close to the primeval dragons, then try distancing yourself from the attacking/combat damage template.
Yes. imo, the XXYYZZ mana costs and XYZ upkeep costs would make them feel like the original Elder Dragons rather than the prime dragons. But loosen up the cycle by varying the triggers/activations.
Maybe changing them to upkeep trigger that has the mana payment option?
I really like all of these, Vaevictis the most. Good job.
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The original cards are all pretty bad and ungainly designs, so let's see what we can preserve while improving on the theme.
The color-intensive costs are not something we see a lot these days so I think I'll go with 4MNO costs instead.
Being 7/7s works for me, that's bigger than the majority of dragons. Obviously they keep flying. I don't think I want to bother with another set of keywords but it's possible.
The only mechanical consistency they had was the MNO upkeep cost. I'm going to take a hint from the Primeval dragons (Rith, the Awakener etc.) and change this into an attack trigger.
We got some hints of personalities (other than Vaevictis) in today's story, to go with whatever old lore they had.
Arcades Sabboth, the Builder 4GWU
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Arcades Sabboth, the Builder attacks, you may pay GWU. If you do, you may look at the top three cards of your library and put a permanent card from among them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
7/7
Chromium Rhuell, the Arbiter 4WUB
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Chromium Rhuell, the Arbiter attacks, you may pay WUB. If you do, choose up to one target permanent and up to one card in a graveyard and return those cards to their owners' hands.
7/7
Nicol Bolas, the Schemer 4UBR
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Nicol Bolas, the Schemer attacks, you may pay UBR. If you do, the defending player reveals their hand. You choose a nonland card from that player's hand and exile it. You may cast it without paying its mana cost for as long as it remains exiled.
7/7
Vaevictis Asmadi, the Destroyer 4BRG
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Vaevictis Asmadi, the Destroyer attacks, you may pay BRG. If you do, destroy target permanent and Vaevictis gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is that permanent's converted mana cost.
7/7
Palladia-Mors, the Consumer 4RGW
Legendary Creature - Elder Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever Palladia-Mors, the Consumer attacks, you may pay RGW. If you do, for each land defending player controls, gain 1 life and add one mana of any color. Until end of turn, you don't lose this mana as steps and phases end.
7/7
Happy to hear any ideas you have for changing these, using different cycle mechanics, or adding Ugin or others. I'm intrigued to see if they try to have Bolas and Ugin mirrored, and also have Bolas or both of them fit into a cycle with the other four.
Nicol Bolas and Arcades Sabboth look weaker than the others. Discard effects are notoriously unreliable by the point at which you're attacking with a 7-drop, and the latter needs support to approach reliability. Palladia-Mors also suffers from the design assumption that this dragon-among-dragons should somehow not be your deck's curve-topper or main threat.
Chromium might benefit from just putting a creature from your graveyard onto the battlefield. Even then, he'd still be weaker than Sheoldred, Whispering One at the same CMC.
Vaevectis almost looks over-tuned compared to the rest, though trample seems like a great addition here, actually. If I spend that much mana on a creature that demands even more mana, then it should very well end the game rather than just be a value-generator.
Arcades can go up to 7 cards to look at, maybe?
I thought I was being clever on Chromium in combining Raise Dead effects and bounce. Straight reanimation didn't seem quite right to me. What if he like cast Balance on the defending player or something? Not all that great as a repeatable effect...
I was thinking about having Bolas exile the top card of library as well, which would be ok I guess. Or hit each opponent whenever he attacks.
I did consider trample with Vaevictis but having it natively breaks the cycle and gaining it in the ability was kind of weird. I guess he could just damage the player for that much, but trample is sort of "better" for commander damage.
Palladia is pretty phoned-in. Some kind of mass fight or just power-damage with lifegain would be cool but having straight removal on two of the cycle is weird. Naya kind of has boring tendencies.
For reference, I kind of want to avoid being too close to any of the primevals.
Treva, the Renewer lifegain
Dromar, the Banisher mass bounce
Crosis, the Purger mass discard
Darigaaz, the Igniter hand damage
Rith, the Awakener tokens
Oros, the Avenger mass damage
Intet, the Dreamer cheaty cast
Teneb, the Harvester reanimation
Numot, the Devastator land destruction
Vorosh, the Hunter counters
Incidentally, I was speaking from an EDH perspective as well. That's why I was assuming that we get the opportunity to cast a 7-drop regularly in the first place.
Don't get too roped in by your own choices. Sure, you decided that they can only have flying, but don't let that prevent you from making these creatures a little more interesting. Cycles don't necessarily need perfect 5-way symmetry. Likewise, if you're afraid of veering too close to the primeval dragons, then try distancing yourself from the attacking/combat damage template.
Yes. imo, the XXYYZZ mana costs and XYZ upkeep costs would make them feel like the original Elder Dragons rather than the prime dragons. But loosen up the cycle by varying the triggers/activations.
Maybe changing them to upkeep trigger that has the mana payment option?
I really like all of these, Vaevictis the most. Good job.