Preparation Leader1W
Creature - Human Soldier
Vigilance Reckoning — At the beginning of your end step, if you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
2/2
Ominous Signs1RR
Enchantment
Nonpermanent spells you cast cost 1 less to cast. Reckoning — 1R, Sacrifice ~: Discard your hand, then draw three cards. Activate this ability only if you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game.
Witnesses of the End2GG
Sorcery
Create a 1/1 white Human creature token for each creature you control. Reckoning — If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Mox Quartz0
Legendary Artifact
When ~ enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life. Reckoning — T: Add one mana of any color. Activate this ability only if you’ve cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game.
Prophecy Stones
Land T: Add C. Reckoning — 4: ~ becomes a 5/5 Giant land creature until end of turn. Activate this ability only if you’ve cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game.
Well, yeah, you've outlined the main problem here. Requiring players to track actions performed over the course of the entire game without some form of built-in visual aid is unreasonable. Digital games get better random mechanics and mechanics with information management and memory issues, while physical games enjoy shortcuts, easy manual infinite combos, and highly complex board states without the weight of processing. Your mechanic falls on the wrong side of the divide.
A memory issue is when you have to keep track of something either via memorizing something happened and without this memorization the ability does not work. Using markers/counters is a way of alleviating the problem. For example gemstone mine uses counters rather than "use this ability obly 3 times".
Let's say player A and player B are playing a game. Dozens of turns in, player A casts preparation ledaer.
Player A: "At end of turn, create a 1/1 token"
Player B: "Whoa there sparky, you haven't casted a 5cc spell yet."
Player A: "Yes I have/"
Player B: "No you haven't. Let's call a judge."
Judge: "How am I supposed to know if player A casted a 5cc spell on turn 6?"
Your mechanic requires BOTH players to keep a record of spells cast and check if any 5cc spells have been cast. What's worse, even if neither player A nor player B has ANY Reckoning cards, both players are still required to keep a record, just in case the other player has.
Preparation Leader1W
Creature - Human Soldier
Reckon (If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you are reckoned.)
Vigilance
At the beginning of your end step, if you're reckoned, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
2/2
Ominous Signs1RR
Enchantment
Reckon (If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you are reckoned.)
Nonpermanent spells you cast cost 1 less to cast. 1R, Sacrifice ~: Discard your hand, then draw three cards. Activate this ability only if you're reckoned.
Witnesses of the End2GG
Sorcery
Reckon (If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you are reckoned.)
Create a 1/1 white Human creature token for each creature you control.
If you're reckoned, you may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Mox Quartz0
Legendary Artifact
Reckon (If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you are reckoned.)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life. T: Add one mana of any color. Activate this ability only if you’re reckoned.
Prophecy Stones
Land
Reckon (If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you are reckoned.) T: Add C. 4: ~ becomes a 5/5 Giant land creature until end of turn. Activate this ability only if you’re reckoned.
The challenge for the spells, at least, is that you're likely not going to be able to cast the 5cmc spell and the "reckon" spell in the same turn, leading to the same memory issues. A solution would be to put the ability that makes you Reckoned on more permanents, so that you can put them into play first then play the spell to trigger it.
What the heck do you mean by "I've been told"? Memory issues has a clearly understood, technical definition, it's not a matter of opinion. Yes, it does have memory issues, and it's not clear how to propose to resolve that. I suppose if you don't want to, you could bin it, but the fact that you made the post at all indicates that you don't? So, where's your fix?
While I agree that there's memory issues in most situations you could just look in your graveyard to see if there's a 5 cost spell. Sure theres always shuffling your graveyard into your library but thats why it's like ascend. Also for reckon, you don't need to have the permanent on the field for it to work, if you play a 5 cost spell, then any reckon card on a later turn, youre still reckoned. It's not a trigger.
While I agree that there's memory issues in most situations you could just look in your graveyard to see if there's a 5 cost spell. Sure theres always shuffling your graveyard into your library but thats why it's like ascend. Also for reckon, you don't need to have the permanent on the field for it to work, if you play a 5 cost spell, then any reckon card on a later turn, youre still reckoned. It's not a trigger.
You'd still need some kind of city's blessing token or a means to reflect that on a board state. The graveyard is an extremely poor tool to prove anything to a judge, considering there are countless ways to put cards there (and onto the battlefield) without casting them. What if your 5 CMC spell is an X spell? How would you prove what X was? What if it were Beacon of Unrest? What I'm say is that just trying to put this on the graveyard without actually caring about the zone is flippant.
Ascend works because it cares about current board state, not a retroactive one. If the ascend mechanic had anything in common with your rework of the mechanic (it doesn't), then it would ascend if you controlled ten permanents at any point prior to casting/controlling an ascend card. It does not work that way for a good reason.
Ascend functions because:
1. It cares about board state
2. It's current. No need to worry about past actions.
3. It uses a token that commemorates the event in question, filling in the biggest memory constraint
4. It's tethered directly to cards with ascend. There's no need to count permanents until somebody plays an ascend card.
While I agree that there's memory issues in most situations you could just look in your graveyard to see if there's a 5 cost spell. Sure theres always shuffling your graveyard into your library but thats why it's like ascend. Also for reckon, you don't need to have the permanent on the field for it to work, if you play a 5 cost spell, then any reckon card on a later turn, youre still reckoned. It's not a trigger.
So why not actually look into the graveyard with the rules text? Oh, because there are several scenarios where that's unreliable (milling, casting a 5-cmc permanent spell and have it bouncedrather than an instant/sorcery, discard, reclaim effects etc.)? Well, then your method is unreliable.
Now, there is something to using ascend technology, but the example cards don't actually use that technology at all.
This is how ascend technology would handle this:
Prophecy Stones
Land
Reckoning (When you cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater, you gain Supreme Judgment indefinitely.) T: Add C. 4: ~ becomes a 5/5 Giant land creature until end of turn. Activate this ability only if you have Supreme Judgment.
The essence of ascend is that you don't need to take the variable into account until the card with the mechanic is revealed. That way memory issues are avoided - memory issues only arise if you have to think back to before a time when the actions of your past have become relevant to the board state.
This variant is a functional change, but reckoning itself is a mechanic that by design goes on cheap cards (cmc 4 or less), so it should by easier to arrange for your Supreme Judgment.
Instants/Sorceries would work differently, but they are on the low end of the priority list to make this work.
Depending on what you care about you could also scrap a lot of that and replace the condition of "having cast a 5+ cmc spell" and replace it with something similar to spell mastery.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I think I figured out a solution:
If you've noted yourself casting a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater, <effect>.
A player may note any action as it happens, or note the current game state at any time. Notes are kept for the rest of the game.
That's actually just a rules change rather than an improvement to a flawed mechanic, since pen and paper are optional accessories in the first place. You also still run into the issue of telegraphing the contents of your deck.
Making players take notes is rather more like an admission of defeat than an actual solution to memory problems.
I think I figured out a solution:
If you've noted yourself casting a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater, <effect>.
A player may note any action as it happens, or note the current game state at any time. Notes are kept for the rest of the game.
That doesnt solve the memory problem. That just admits that there is one and you need to use notes. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing wizards wants to avoi when they design cards and bend backwards to make sure players don't have to (agains, see gemstone mine).
If you restricted it to permanents, it could maybe be monstrous/renown, triggering a one-time change when you cast a 5+ spell. However, I don't think this is a very good solution since a) unless the permanents get counters it's still hard to remember and b) if you cast more things with the ability later you may end up with a mix of on and off permanents.
Straight up being a trigger for whenever you cast a 5+ spell is not that terrible, if you're trying to fill a specific role in a set or something. It could even go on a few spells maybe as a graveyard trigger that buys them back to your hand when you do that?
I think the easiest and best way is to say "If you control a permanent with converted mana cost 5 or greater or if there's a card with converted mana cost 5 or greater in your graveyard..."
Certainly that leads to the possibility of "cheating" with Elvish Piper or self-mill or whatever else is your pleasure, but I think that's more a feature than it is a bug.
Why is it considered such a big issue if the mechanic telegraphs your deck(some of the time)? Any other version turns it from a milestone mechanic into something completely different.
Notes are not a good solution. Yes you are free to bring notation materials and take notes on the game at any time. You're also free to doodle or write stories while your opponent is taking a long time on their turn. There is no rule to stop you from writing down that you've cast a CMC 5+ spell even if it's not true, since your personal notes are not governed by the game rules. If you make a mechanic that relies upon players' notation, there must then be rules governing what and when players are allowed to make notes about, a much bigger can of worms than you want to be opening for a single mechanic like this.
Yes, lying about the game state is cheating; but making a false note about the game state is not cheating, and your proposal only checks the notes, it never checks the actual game at any time. You must find a way to track your condition within the game itself.
Tbh ascend handles all the issues with this mechanic just fine, simply use that implementation with a different trigger and you're done.
Except it doesn't work for instants and sorceries. This has already been mentioned.
I think you have to realize that there are some kinds of mechanics this game can't support, and a mechanic that cares about something that happened potentially several turns prior is one of them. Effects that target cards in hidden zones or work while hidden are two more examples.
Tbh ascend handles all the issues with this mechanic just fine, simply use that implementation with a different trigger and you're done.
Except it doesn't work for instants and sorceries. This has already been mentioned.
It does. There are multiple ways to make it work with instant/sorcery cards:
Just play a permanent with my version of reckoning beforehand (see above) and have an instant/sorcery with an ability dependent on "Supreme Judgment" (or whatever name you want) ready for later after you cast your cmc 5 spell.
Have a reckoning variant specifically for spells e. g. one that creates "Supreme Judgment" condition if you cast the cmc 5 spell during the same turn.
Have spells dependent on "Supreme Judgment" condition create a tocken with my version of reckoning.
Have a reckoning variant specifically for spells e. g one that triggers from the graveyard, or exiles the spell and triggers from exile.
I imagine the list is longer if one puts more than five-ten minutes of thought into it.
But really. Do you need nonpermanent cards with reckoning? From a gameplay perspective permanents with reckoning are better since you can use a cmc 5 spell not only to improve future spells you cast, but also permanents already on the bettlefield.
Of the sample cards i the OP Witnesses of the End isn't even really a design that needs to be a sorcery to begin with. Could just as well be a 1/1 creature with a conditional ETB triggered ability.
Worst comes to worst you replace all sorceries with enchantments with ETB effects and all instants with the same, but flash.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I'd say that the memory thing in mtg is a design decision, rather than one with lack of support for te rules.
It's a design decision I support, because the alternative gets quickly out of hand. On day you're just keeping track of one mechanic. The next, you're keeping notes on dozens of different cards (because let's face it, there are a lot of effects in mtg that use counters), and the gamestate can no longer be determined by just looking at the board and cards, but you'd have to decipher notes of both players. Notes that now have to be governed by their own set of rules. I can just imagine the neceesity of making two seperate "note zones": there's "notes of things happening on the board", then "notes that aren't, but just things the player wants to have a reminder of". Will there be rules onlegibility? Rules that state that if you fail to take a note, it doesn't exist? What if there's a discrpeancy between the players? Languages used?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
There's no question this mechanic has memory issues, not much to discuss here.
If you want to design cards to play with friends for fun, then, for that purpose alone, you can dismiss this issue. Just have a card lying around like City's Blessing to track down the mile stone.
Imo it's not worth the trouble. This isn't the best milestone mechanic anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
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Standard - Serious BGU Control R Aggro
Standard - For Fun BG Auras
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Creature - Human Soldier
Vigilance
Reckoning — At the beginning of your end step, if you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
2/2
Ominous Signs 1RR
Enchantment
Nonpermanent spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Reckoning — 1R, Sacrifice ~: Discard your hand, then draw three cards. Activate this ability only if you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game.
Witnesses of the End 2GG
Sorcery
Create a 1/1 white Human creature token for each creature you control.
Reckoning — If you've cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game, you may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Mox Quartz 0
Legendary Artifact
When ~ enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life.
Reckoning — T: Add one mana of any color. Activate this ability only if you’ve cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game.
Prophecy Stones
Land
T: Add C.
Reckoning — 4: ~ becomes a 5/5 Giant land creature until end of turn. Activate this ability only if you’ve cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater this game.
Let's say player A and player B are playing a game. Dozens of turns in, player A casts preparation ledaer.
Player A: "At end of turn, create a 1/1 token"
Player B: "Whoa there sparky, you haven't casted a 5cc spell yet."
Player A: "Yes I have/"
Player B: "No you haven't. Let's call a judge."
Judge: "How am I supposed to know if player A casted a 5cc spell on turn 6?"
Your mechanic requires BOTH players to keep a record of spells cast and check if any 5cc spells have been cast. What's worse, even if neither player A nor player B has ANY Reckoning cards, both players are still required to keep a record, just in case the other player has.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
You'd still need some kind of city's blessing token or a means to reflect that on a board state. The graveyard is an extremely poor tool to prove anything to a judge, considering there are countless ways to put cards there (and onto the battlefield) without casting them. What if your 5 CMC spell is an X spell? How would you prove what X was? What if it were Beacon of Unrest? What I'm say is that just trying to put this on the graveyard without actually caring about the zone is flippant.
Ascend works because it cares about current board state, not a retroactive one. If the ascend mechanic had anything in common with your rework of the mechanic (it doesn't), then it would ascend if you controlled ten permanents at any point prior to casting/controlling an ascend card. It does not work that way for a good reason.
Ascend functions because:
1. It cares about board state
2. It's current. No need to worry about past actions.
3. It uses a token that commemorates the event in question, filling in the biggest memory constraint
4. It's tethered directly to cards with ascend. There's no need to count permanents until somebody plays an ascend card.
So why not actually look into the graveyard with the rules text? Oh, because there are several scenarios where that's unreliable (milling, casting a 5-cmc permanent spell and have it bouncedrather than an instant/sorcery, discard, reclaim effects etc.)? Well, then your method is unreliable.
Now, there is something to using ascend technology, but the example cards don't actually use that technology at all.
This is how ascend technology would handle this:
Land
Reckoning (When you cast a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater, you gain Supreme Judgment indefinitely.)
T: Add C.
4: ~ becomes a 5/5 Giant land creature until end of turn. Activate this ability only if you have Supreme Judgment.
The essence of ascend is that you don't need to take the variable into account until the card with the mechanic is revealed. That way memory issues are avoided - memory issues only arise if you have to think back to before a time when the actions of your past have become relevant to the board state.
This variant is a functional change, but reckoning itself is a mechanic that by design goes on cheap cards (cmc 4 or less), so it should by easier to arrange for your Supreme Judgment.
Instants/Sorceries would work differently, but they are on the low end of the priority list to make this work.
Depending on what you care about you could also scrap a lot of that and replace the condition of "having cast a 5+ cmc spell" and replace it with something similar to spell mastery.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
If you've noted yourself casting a spell with converted mana cost 5 or greater, <effect>.
A player may note any action as it happens, or note the current game state at any time. Notes are kept for the rest of the game.
That's actually just a rules change rather than an improvement to a flawed mechanic, since pen and paper are optional accessories in the first place. You also still run into the issue of telegraphing the contents of your deck.
Making players take notes is rather more like an admission of defeat than an actual solution to memory problems.
That doesnt solve the memory problem. That just admits that there is one and you need to use notes. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing wizards wants to avoi when they design cards and bend backwards to make sure players don't have to (agains, see gemstone mine).
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Straight up being a trigger for whenever you cast a 5+ spell is not that terrible, if you're trying to fill a specific role in a set or something. It could even go on a few spells maybe as a graveyard trigger that buys them back to your hand when you do that?
Certainly that leads to the possibility of "cheating" with Elvish Piper or self-mill or whatever else is your pleasure, but I think that's more a feature than it is a bug.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Yes, lying about the game state is cheating; but making a false note about the game state is not cheating, and your proposal only checks the notes, it never checks the actual game at any time. You must find a way to track your condition within the game itself.
Except it doesn't work for instants and sorceries. This has already been mentioned.
I think you have to realize that there are some kinds of mechanics this game can't support, and a mechanic that cares about something that happened potentially several turns prior is one of them. Effects that target cards in hidden zones or work while hidden are two more examples.
It does. There are multiple ways to make it work with instant/sorcery cards:
But really. Do you need nonpermanent cards with reckoning? From a gameplay perspective permanents with reckoning are better since you can use a cmc 5 spell not only to improve future spells you cast, but also permanents already on the bettlefield.
Of the sample cards i the OP Witnesses of the End isn't even really a design that needs to be a sorcery to begin with. Could just as well be a 1/1 creature with a conditional ETB triggered ability.
Worst comes to worst you replace all sorceries with enchantments with ETB effects and all instants with the same, but flash.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
It's a design decision I support, because the alternative gets quickly out of hand. On day you're just keeping track of one mechanic. The next, you're keeping notes on dozens of different cards (because let's face it, there are a lot of effects in mtg that use counters), and the gamestate can no longer be determined by just looking at the board and cards, but you'd have to decipher notes of both players. Notes that now have to be governed by their own set of rules. I can just imagine the neceesity of making two seperate "note zones": there's "notes of things happening on the board", then "notes that aren't, but just things the player wants to have a reminder of". Will there be rules onlegibility? Rules that state that if you fail to take a note, it doesn't exist? What if there's a discrpeancy between the players? Languages used?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
If you want to design cards to play with friends for fun, then, for that purpose alone, you can dismiss this issue. Just have a card lying around like City's Blessing to track down the mile stone.
Imo it's not worth the trouble. This isn't the best milestone mechanic anyway.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras