This is an example of a card that breaks the rules of the game.
The main purpose of this land cycle is to have a common card that severely aids in avoiding mana screw, especially in limited. In Ixalan draft, about 15% of duels are decided by who gets a deviant mana draw. This problem was much less frequent in Amonkhet draft, thanks to cycling.
My desired power level is for these lands to be superb in draft (typically 5th picks), certainly good enough for Standard, maybe good enough for Modern, yet not quite good enough for superfast Legacy (which already has quite stable mana due to fetchlands + Brainstorm).
Later on I might create some spreadsheets to see how Primordial lands affect probabilities of avoiding mana screw.
Could this be used as a basis to build a very aggressive deck with a low curve and without nonprimordial lands?
That is exactly what I thought when I initially saw this - there's no way to make this not-degenerate because one deck type and one only wins out here: extremely low-cost and efficent aggro. A deck in the vein of Zoo could theoretically run Primordial Forest, Primordial Mountain, and Primordial Plains and let that be its whole mana base, filling the rest of the cards with creatures and perhaps burn and always be able to aggro out and kill before combo or control can respond.
Such a thought occurred to me to before my opening post. But then I considered the following "god" draws for aggo decks:
Practically ideal draw for Modern 3-color aggro deck.
t1: Primordial Forest, go. 0 damage inflicted, 6 cards in hand.
t2: Promordial Mountain, Wild Nacatl, go. 0 damage inflicted, 5 cards in hand.
t3: Primordial Plains, Rancor, Goblin Guide, attack, go. 7 damage inflicted, 3 cards in hand.
t4: Rancor, Boros Charm, attack. 20 damage inflicted, 2 cards in hand.
Practically ideal draw for Modern mono-red deck.
t1: Primordial Mountain, go. 0 damage infliced, 6 cards in hand.
t2: Primordial Mountain, Goblin Guilde, attack, go. 2 damage infliced, 5 cards in hand.
t3: Primordial Mountain, Goblin Guide, Goblin Guide, attack, go. 8 damage infliced, 3 cards in hand.
t4: Lightning Bolt x3, attack. 23 damage inflicted, 1 card in hand.
These scenarios are for ideal draws, which could occur just a little more frequently with Primordial Lands granting consistent early land drops. But turn-4 kills aren't all that rare in Modern, so Primordial Lands wouldn't make too much of a difference... if games don't last many turns. The true strength of going with this 3-4 Primordial Land deck is that you could play 56-57 spells and never mana flood. But if 56-57 spell decks became part of the metagame, they could be hurt severely by cards such as Ghostly Prison, Fulminator Mage, and Ghost Quarter. And if a set printed Primordial Lands, it should also include cards that make relying exclusively on Primordial Lands a bad idea.
With regard to Legacy, I think the speed of the format plus Wasteland and Rishadan Port make relying on Primordial Lands too much of a risk.
What are opinions of these lands in draft and Standard?
Needs a reveal clause. Have to prove you're putting these on top of your library, rather than some other card.
Imagine a guy putting 4 cards on top of his library without revealing what they are, but in reality is really just putting in 1 primordial swamp, dark rit, entomb, exhume instead.
*puts 4 cards on top of library without revealing them
Breaks zoo and other low/flat cose aggro.
With regard to Legacy, I think the speed of the format plus Wasteland and Rishadan Port make relying on Primordial Lands too much of a risk.
Doesn't matter when you can guarantee a turn 1/2 kill anyway. This makes legacy FASTER, not irrelevant because legacy is already fast. Belcher and Mana ichorid are near guaranteed wins if they had the appropriate land in their opening hand, and both of those decks laugh at wasteland and rishadan ports.
I looked up a Charbelcher list, and Primordial lands would make that deck more reliably explode on turn 2. So Primordial lands should be banned in Legacy.
My primary goal is to make mana more consistent in limited formats, because trying to play this game with almost exclusively basic lands and little library manipulation leads to frequent metaphorical train wrecks.
I think the best way to make limited formats more consistent is an ample supply of nonbasic lands. In custom set boosters I replace the basic land slot with an actual land slot. Putting in those slots limited-appropriate fetchlands and/or duals goes a long way. For a Ravnica set I'm planning Gates + Gate fetchland and it basically allows for any light splash (balanced by the fact that the best bombs have CCDD costs or HHHH costs - in theory).
Legendary doesn't matter (much) on these because a three-color aggro deck like Zoo that doesn't want more than three lands would just run the three appropriate primordial lands and be done with it.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Adding Gates to each pack helps with color screw. But it doesn't help with simply drawing too many or too few lands. Are Gate fetchlands custom cards of your design?
Mulliganing helps, but in my opinion, it's not enough. For example, last Friday my competent opponent mulliganed a 1-land hand, then mulliganed a 0-land hand, then kept a 3-land hand - then died having drawn 10 lands and 4 spells. In round 2, I mulliganed a no-land hand into a 3 land hand (which I kept), but then didn't draw a single of my 8 swamps until card #21. We really need cards at common which help not only with color fixing, but smoothing mana quantity as well. I played a few M25 drafts, and the mere presence of landcyclers at common helps profoundly. Cards such as landcyclers or mechanics such as cycling and buyback really should be included in every single set.
Mulliganing helps, but in my opinion, it's not enough. For example, last Friday my competent opponent mulliganed a 1-land hand, then mulliganed a 0-land hand, then kept a 3-land hand - then died having drawn 10 lands and 4 spells. In round 2, I mulliganed a no-land hand into a 3 land hand (which I kept), but then didn't draw a single of my 8 swamps until card #21. We really need cards at common which help not only with color fixing, but smoothing mana quantity as well. I played a few M25 drafts, and the mere presence of landcyclers at common helps profoundly. Cards such as landcyclers or mechanics such as cycling and buyback really should be included in every single set.
I can see cycling as evergreen, even as our elusive UB evergreen mechanic, but buyback is way too complicated to be an evergreen mechanic. It's also very difficult to balance, and it has much less design space compared to the likes of kicker and cycling.
You can share a million anecdotes about bad luck, and I can counter with a million more about godly curves, top decks, and limited pools. Either way, they're indicative of nothing. Cards as a medium are used in games for the variance they cause. Mitigating variance should be a challenge of deckbuilding, and trying to eliminate it entirely misunderstands why cards are used in the first place.
Adding Gates to each pack helps with color screw. But it doesn't help with simply drawing too many or too few lands. Are Gate fetchlands custom cards of your design?
Gate fetchlands do not exist outside of Custom Card Design AFAIK.
An alternative is cycling and even basic landcycling on lands - looting etc. I don't use the same solutiopn for every set.
Honestly, I think the scrylands/temples were a good solution since even flooding with them means you can at least set up your next draw better. Definitely something I would put into the land slot regularly. Even with an off-color these dual would be useful in Limited to smooth out draws, which I consider quite appealing.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Temples and Bicycle Lands from Amonkhet are superb. But since they are at rare (to promote pack-cracking), they don't show up frequently enough in draft. But if you are making repacks for casual drafts, putting them in your repacks is excellent.
I put together a few spreadsheets to look at probabilities of getting whatever-number-of-lands with my Primordial Lands. It quickly became apparent that it's probably best to play only like 10-15 lands, and send 2-3 to the top at the start of the game. That's no good. So I've scrapped these Primordial Lands and have been brainstorming for other ideas to smooth out mana draws.
Another idea crossed my mind. What do y'all think of this card?
Note that it doesn't grant you mana the turn you play it, so it's much like a land that enters tapped in that regard. But the turn thereafter, you are pretty much guaranteed to have access to two colors of mana. In the late game, drawing one is a little bit of a drag because you end up one mana in the hole for a turn, compared to just topdecking another basic land.
This card is inspired by the card Explore. But Explore offers mana ramping capability, which this card does not. But on the other hand, this card offers a little extra consistency which really ought to help a deck get 2 basic lands on the table on turn 2, and 3 basic lands on turn 3. Although this card is definitely more complex than most commons, I made it a common because it is urgently needed in Limited formats where mana smoothing cards are hard to acquire. This card provides both color consistency plus a way to help dig out of a mana screw. My intention is to deliberately make this card good enough for constructed formats, but not so good that it feels unfair. Fetch lands are certainly good enough for constructed formats, but they don't feel unfair to me. Incidentally, I didn't want to make Primordial Earth quite as good as fetch lands, however.
Note that I edited the card so that it gets exiled.
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The main purpose of this land cycle is to have a common card that severely aids in avoiding mana screw, especially in limited. In Ixalan draft, about 15% of duels are decided by who gets a deviant mana draw. This problem was much less frequent in Amonkhet draft, thanks to cycling.
My desired power level is for these lands to be superb in draft (typically 5th picks), certainly good enough for Standard, maybe good enough for Modern, yet not quite good enough for superfast Legacy (which already has quite stable mana due to fetchlands + Brainstorm).
Later on I might create some spreadsheets to see how Primordial lands affect probabilities of avoiding mana screw.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
That is exactly what I thought when I initially saw this - there's no way to make this not-degenerate because one deck type and one only wins out here: extremely low-cost and efficent aggro. A deck in the vein of Zoo could theoretically run Primordial Forest, Primordial Mountain, and Primordial Plains and let that be its whole mana base, filling the rest of the cards with creatures and perhaps burn and always be able to aggro out and kill before combo or control can respond.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Practically ideal draw for Modern 3-color aggro deck.
t1: Primordial Forest, go. 0 damage inflicted, 6 cards in hand.
t2: Promordial Mountain, Wild Nacatl, go. 0 damage inflicted, 5 cards in hand.
t3: Primordial Plains, Rancor, Goblin Guide, attack, go. 7 damage inflicted, 3 cards in hand.
t4: Rancor, Boros Charm, attack. 20 damage inflicted, 2 cards in hand.
Practically ideal draw for Modern mono-red deck.
t1: Primordial Mountain, go. 0 damage infliced, 6 cards in hand.
t2: Primordial Mountain, Goblin Guilde, attack, go. 2 damage infliced, 5 cards in hand.
t3: Primordial Mountain, Goblin Guide, Goblin Guide, attack, go. 8 damage infliced, 3 cards in hand.
t4: Lightning Bolt x3, attack. 23 damage inflicted, 1 card in hand.
These scenarios are for ideal draws, which could occur just a little more frequently with Primordial Lands granting consistent early land drops. But turn-4 kills aren't all that rare in Modern, so Primordial Lands wouldn't make too much of a difference... if games don't last many turns. The true strength of going with this 3-4 Primordial Land deck is that you could play 56-57 spells and never mana flood. But if 56-57 spell decks became part of the metagame, they could be hurt severely by cards such as Ghostly Prison, Fulminator Mage, and Ghost Quarter. And if a set printed Primordial Lands, it should also include cards that make relying exclusively on Primordial Lands a bad idea.
With regard to Legacy, I think the speed of the format plus Wasteland and Rishadan Port make relying on Primordial Lands too much of a risk.
What are opinions of these lands in draft and Standard?
Imagine a guy putting 4 cards on top of his library without revealing what they are, but in reality is really just putting in 1 primordial swamp, dark rit, entomb, exhume instead.
*puts 4 cards on top of library without revealing them
Breaks zoo and other low/flat cose aggro.
Doesn't matter when you can guarantee a turn 1/2 kill anyway. This makes legacy FASTER, not irrelevant because legacy is already fast. Belcher and Mana ichorid are near guaranteed wins if they had the appropriate land in their opening hand, and both of those decks laugh at wasteland and rishadan ports.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I looked up a Charbelcher list, and Primordial lands would make that deck more reliably explode on turn 2. So Primordial lands should be banned in Legacy.
My primary goal is to make mana more consistent in limited formats, because trying to play this game with almost exclusively basic lands and little library manipulation leads to frequent metaphorical train wrecks.
Legendary doesn't matter (much) on these because a three-color aggro deck like Zoo that doesn't want more than three lands would just run the three appropriate primordial lands and be done with it.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
The major help for that should be mulliganing...
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I can see cycling as evergreen, even as our elusive UB evergreen mechanic, but buyback is way too complicated to be an evergreen mechanic. It's also very difficult to balance, and it has much less design space compared to the likes of kicker and cycling.
You can share a million anecdotes about bad luck, and I can counter with a million more about godly curves, top decks, and limited pools. Either way, they're indicative of nothing. Cards as a medium are used in games for the variance they cause. Mitigating variance should be a challenge of deckbuilding, and trying to eliminate it entirely misunderstands why cards are used in the first place.
Gate fetchlands do not exist outside of Custom Card Design AFAIK.
An alternative is cycling and even basic landcycling on lands - looting etc. I don't use the same solutiopn for every set.
Honestly, I think the scrylands/temples were a good solution since even flooding with them means you can at least set up your next draw better. Definitely something I would put into the land slot regularly. Even with an off-color these dual would be useful in Limited to smooth out draws, which I consider quite appealing.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Note that it doesn't grant you mana the turn you play it, so it's much like a land that enters tapped in that regard. But the turn thereafter, you are pretty much guaranteed to have access to two colors of mana. In the late game, drawing one is a little bit of a drag because you end up one mana in the hole for a turn, compared to just topdecking another basic land.
It is also a uncommon due to to complexity.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Also, can't be common due to complexity.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
This card is inspired by the card Explore. But Explore offers mana ramping capability, which this card does not. But on the other hand, this card offers a little extra consistency which really ought to help a deck get 2 basic lands on the table on turn 2, and 3 basic lands on turn 3. Although this card is definitely more complex than most commons, I made it a common because it is urgently needed in Limited formats where mana smoothing cards are hard to acquire. This card provides both color consistency plus a way to help dig out of a mana screw. My intention is to deliberately make this card good enough for constructed formats, but not so good that it feels unfair. Fetch lands are certainly good enough for constructed formats, but they don't feel unfair to me. Incidentally, I didn't want to make Primordial Earth quite as good as fetch lands, however.
Note that I edited the card so that it gets exiled.