Heya after lost of playtesting and feedback I'm getting close to some of the final versions of my commons for Dreamscape.
However I'm looking for opinions on what are the top and bottom 3 cards for each color in the context of limited.
Getting enough info on this and comparing this to the playtest data I've beeen collecting will help me fine tune the color balance and note what cards look better or worse than they have been playing.
I think the set is suffering severely from "power level flattening syndrome" (C). Except for Demean, maybe Cleansing Stroke, Predator's Thrill, Travel Preparations (based on previous experiences with that card), I couldn't make out any cards that are all that much above the base level. I go through the list and think "That's a 6/10... That's a 6/10... That's a 6/10..."
It is a natural instinct to center all cards at a power level where they are "fair", but useful. And players always complain when a common is very strong (when they play against it). But you have to ignore those people. It makes for a less exciting draft format if you can't go nuts about what you're getting passed. No powerful commons means that reading signals is more difficult. You have to deliberately push some cards and weaken some others so that there's a bit of variance.
There are some good, but not great (Pacifism, Oblivion Strike) removal spells, but the creatures seem all very interchangeable. Exceptions are maybe Dreamscape Purifier and Equinox Sage.
Ok I just finished reading all those cards. Keep in mind anticipating a entire limited environment is very difficult (specially because I only know the commons!) and a honest feedback would only be possible with serious play tests.
It's questionable if Dreamwalk is a positive ability. For example, is a 2/2 Dreamwalk better then a 2/2 vanilla ? Probably yes in many situations and no in many others. There's plenty of common limited scenarios were the ability is actually a downside (a 2/2 vanilla is better then a 2/2 dreamwalker vs. a 2/3 vanilla). For this reason I think dreamwalkers are generally being overpriced, the best example being Dawn Crusader (there's no reason this is not a 2/2).
White creatures range from unplayable to unexciting (Dreamscape Purifier being the sole exception). For example, from my rankings, the median blue creature (Inquisitive Mori) is better then all white creatures except for the Purifier. When blue is so vastly superior then white in terms of creatures it means something is seriously wrong.
More worrisome is how white lacks a cohesive gameplay. The set of white commons is a spurious collection of cards that has no synergies among itself and only with the strategy's sponsored by WX combinations. This is bad because it makes the white very shallow for any given WX deck and completely undesirable as a primary color. And it also boring.
The above critique somewhat applies to all colors. I think you overplayed the "two-colors mechanic" model. WB have a identity, UR have a identity, UB have a identity. But the colors alone don't, with white being by far the color most effected by this. Imo the way out is to devote less cards to specific mechanical paragons and more cards that could go in any deck.
On the other hand blue is just too awesome. Way too awesome. The mill + premonition is the kind of mechanic that lifts up a set and the kind of thing white is lacking.
- There's no aggro archtype. This should make premonition and green ramp decks go unharmed with greedy late game plans, while making white horrible and red lacking.
There's some weird design decisions. Like Prowess in white. Prowess is not a keyword that can work unsupported (reason why I feel like it's evergreen status is somewhat questionable). If a color has two common prowess creature it means the set wants you to play a spellslinger deck. Do you think white offers enough instants to justify such deck ? Normally it works because blue has tons of instants and red has it's share of highly playable instants as well (in the form of burn and tricks).
I compliment you in your creativity. You have awesome designs in many different categories of awesomeness. Like the top down Reality Gateway, the pie subversive Reality Pull and the fact that premonition gives two new meanings to mill cards breathing fresh air into the mechanic.
It's questionable if Dreamwalk is a positive ability. For example, is a 2/2 Dreamwalk better then a 2/2 vanilla ? Probably yes in many situations and no in many others. There's plenty of common limited scenarios were the ability is actually a downside (a 2/2 vanilla is better then a 2/2 dreamwalker vs. a 2/3 vanilla). For this reason I think dreamwalkers are generally being overpriced, the best example being Dawn Crusader (there's no reason this is not a 2/2).
Doom has already gone through significant playtesting of this mechanic and it clearly does what he wants it to do for the set.
More worrisome is how white lacks a cohesive gameplay. The set of white commons is a spurious collection of cards that has no synergies among itself and only with the strategy's sponsored by WX combinations. This is bad because it makes the white very shallow for any given WX deck and completely undesirable as a primary color. And it also boring.
I don't see what's new about a color being significantly weaker/unfocused than the rest (see also: BFZ green) within a set.
There's some weird design decisions. Like Prowess in white. Prowess is not a keyword that can work unsupported (reason why I feel like it's evergreen status is somewhat questionable). If a color has two common prowess creature it means the set wants you to play a spellslinger deck. Do you think white offers enough instants to justify such deck ? Normally it works because blue has tons of instants and red has it's share of highly playable instants as well (in the form of burn and tricks).
This one only makes sense if you assume this set was designed after Origins. I'm pretty sure when Doombringer decided on using Prowess, it was still assumed that the mechanic was a block mechanic (and a Jeskai one, I should point out), not a preview for an evergreen.
In order to break this up into reasonable chunks, I'm doing a color per post. This post is for white.
General notes:
Its very hard for me to evaluate these cards because I'm not sure how good dreamwalk is.
I can't grock the flavor of Emissary of Light. My suggestion would be to call it "Hatchling Griffin". The idea being that when the griffin grows, it will start to fly.
Lost in the Moment seems really unfun. I envision that casting it will result in the opponent being forced to play around it the rest of the game. Rather than being a cool trick, it will end up effectively granting its caster vigilance for its creatures for the rest of the game. Hard to say without playtesting though.
Looking at white, I don't really see what it is trying to do. You have a mediocre +1/+1 counter synergy, but only one mediocre way of enabling it. Dusk watcher has a double white cost and effectively requires you to be attacking, but most white creatures are bad at attacking.
Best of:
Cleansing Stroke - efficient removal is good.
Dreamscape purifier - Opponents should have a hard time attacking into a 3/5, which means they won't have blockers for when it attacks. I think this card will end up playing a lot like a 3/5 vigilant flier for 5, which is very very good.
Lingering Glow - Efficient pseudo removal is good.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I think the set is suffering severely from "power level flattening syndrome" (C). Except for Demean, maybe Cleansing Stroke, Predator's Thrill, Travel Preparations (based on previous experiences with that card), I couldn't make out any cards that are all that much above the base level. I go through the list and think "That's a 6/10... That's a 6/10... That's a 6/10..."
Thanks for the feedback.
In general you are right that I do strive to have a reasonably "flat" power lever at common, which matches the developmental tendencies of WOTC and makes in my belief for a good limited environment.
However I am definitely aware of the issue you bring up of wanting exciting cards at common to make the opening of a pack more exciting. In fact cards like Demean, Dreamscape Purifier and Travel Preparations are there to really push above the normal curve for each color. Maybe you feel like I need to do this more but I'll also mention that it is very very common for players to underestimate the power of both flashback and premonition. I've had many tell me they think Subconcious Recall is borderline or unplayable while those who I do drafts with sometimes has doubts wherever it can be at common no matter what the cost. same with a card like Midnight Howling or Memories of the Earth which are stronger than they look.
Currently Red has had a lot of cards moved around recently and thus no longer really has a premium card which is an issue I'm aware of and looking at how to solve without making it so suicidally aggressive like it has been in previous iterations.
It's questionable if Dreamwalk is a positive ability. For example, is a 2/2 Dreamwalk better then a 2/2 vanilla ? Probably yes in many situations and no in many others. There's plenty of common limited scenarios were the ability is actually a downside (a 2/2 vanilla is better then a 2/2 dreamwalker vs. a 2/3 vanilla). For this reason I think dreamwalkers are generally being overpriced, the best example being Dawn Crusader (there's no reason this is not a 2/2).
I've talked about dreamwalk in the discussion thread and on the podcast but I'll re-iterate how it plays here.
Dreamwalk pushes the format to be aggressive and tempo your opponent out, while your right that unlike other keywords it isn't a "strict upside" as it can be annoying if your opponent is racing you and your slightly on the back foot. However the benefit when you on the play for example and play a turn 2 Dawn Crusader is very strong as your opponent can no longer block with creatures the turn they come down, leaving them always on the back foot, especially when combined with Cleansing Stroke to kill a tapped creature or Lingering Glow to prevent them from attacking in the first place.
Also Dreamwalk breaks board stalls most of the time making cards like Dreamscape Purifier with high toughness a lot better than they seem as the vigilance and high toughness mean your opponent has difficult attacking you. (though makes you vulnerable to dreamwalkers.) The card has been a 2/5 for along time and was still playable filler, but as a 3/5 it suddenly jumps to very strong.
White creatures range from unplayable to unexciting (Dreamscape Purifier being the sole exception). For example, from my rankings, the median blue creature (Inquisitive Mori) is better then all white creatures except for the Purifier. When blue is so vastly superior then white in terms of creatures it means something is seriously wrong.
I'm aware that white is slightly lacking premium looking cards at common and I've been making small buffs and changes recently to address this. However despite this white has consistantly been doing rather well in our sealed and draft playtesting so I'm hesitant to do too radical an overhaul like I have done with Green and Red.
More worrisome is how white lacks a cohesive gameplay. The set of white commons is a spurious collection of cards that has no synergies among itself and only with the strategy's sponsored by WX combinations. This is bad because it makes the white very shallow for any given WX deck and completely undesirable as a primary color. And it also boring.
White is certainly more of a support color in some ways but it does have the core of a aggressive tempo deck, it just depends on what tools it chooses to use to achieve that, if it be Bounce, fliers and dreamwalkers with UW, prowess, premoniiton and flashback with RW or small creatures and +1/+1 counter synergies with WG and Travel Preparations. (WB is a more controlling grindy deck.)
I will note that I am look for a way to incorperate another +1/+1 counter, instant card in white, most likely changing Scapehunting which is the common card I'm least happy with. This will help both the prowess and +1/+1 counter decks.
- There's no aggro archtype. This should make premonition and green ramp decks go unharmed with greedy late game plans, while making white horrible and red lacking.
I personally disagree with this as BR and UW aggro have both been very effective in our playtesting, but its certainly interesting you think that. What about the cardset makes you so uncertain about Aggressive strategies?
There's some weird design decisions. Like Prowess in white. Prowess is not a keyword that can work unsupported (reason why I feel like it's evergreen status is somewhat questionable). If a color has two common prowess creature it means the set wants you to play a spellslinger deck. Do you think white offers enough instants to justify such deck ? Normally it works because blue has tons of instants and red has it's share of highly playable instants as well (in the form of burn and tricks).
Flashback plays extremely well with prowess and so does Premonition to a smaller extent. Circeus is correct that this set has been designed well before Magic Origins, however RW is probably the deck that needs a little help, probably with another flashback card in white at common. I do think Prowess is justified as an evergreen mechanic and note I have cards like Life’s Grandeur that can be used in both WB lifegain and in RW prowess.
Again thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely aware there are still things that can be improved and your thoughts are always helpful in identifying these issues.
Again I'd love to hear from everyone What are the Top 3 commons for each Color? for limited.
Now that I look at this set a little more closely, it seems obvious that a non-multicolor set has no use for a cycle of common duals.
There is nowhere near enough +1/+1 counter support at common to justify Emissary of Light's effect.
There is no justification for Scapehunting not targeting either the cards or the player.
Even though I see what it's supposed to do, I'm really not enamored with the white untapping effects. I look at Lost in the Moment and I really, REALLY want to make it main blue instead of main white.
Cruel Worship gives me the same reaction. Black does not grant haste at common.
Is it an accident how close Lurking Murkbeast and Altor Oathbound feel?
Awakening surge is just asking for trouble because I suspect even experienced player are going to mess up occasionally as to whether untapping the creature causes its P/T to change.
White dies have a flat power issue, although my lack of knowledge of how exactly Dramwalk plays may complicate my top three choice of Lost in the Moment, Lingering Glow and Dusk Watcher
In blue, Enter the Dreamscape is a mandatory member of the top three. Like the white Lost on the Moment It's just too swizz-army-knife-y not to be. Next are Pestermite and Inquisitive Mori, because you hardly ever go wrong with value evasion (but it's difficult to leave Think Twice out).
In black, Demean is your serviceable removal. Also getting my votes are Shadow Blessing and the above-curve Snatching Murkbeast.
Red would seem like possibly the best color if its removal wasn't so underwhelming. Amongst a number cards I would probably want to pick very high are Crackling Figments, Memories of the Earth and Mindi's Dramatics.
When in green, you can hardly go wrong with a deathtouch-y blocker, so Dreamweaver is in my tops. U/G is clearly a self-mill archetype, and so Aether Predator looks like pretty good value. I think my third card is the versatile-looking Viridescent Kirin (although Midnight Howling is very close behind).
[quote from="Apoquallyp »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/666513-dms-all-dreamscape-commons-looking-for-limited?comment=2"]
I've talked about dreamwalk in the discussion thread and on the podcast but I'll re-iterate how it plays here.
Dreamwalk pushes the format to be aggressive and tempo your opponent out, while your right that unlike other keywords it isn't a "strict upside" as it can be annoying if your opponent is racing you and your slightly on the back foot. However the benefit when you on the play for example and play a turn 2 Dawn Crusader is very strong as your opponent can no longer block with creatures the turn they come down, leaving them always on the back foot, especially when combined with Cleansing Stroke to kill a tapped creature or Lingering Glow to prevent them from attacking in the first place.
Also Dreamwalk breaks board stalls most of the time making cards like Dreamscape Purifier with high toughness a lot better than they seem as the vigilance and high toughness mean your opponent has difficult attacking you. (though makes you vulnerable to dreamwalkers.) The card has been a 2/5 for along time and was still playable filler, but as a 3/5 it suddenly jumps to very strong.
My point is not that Dreamwalk is a bad ability. I'm totally supportive of abilities that are not straight up upsides. I'm pretty convinced it is fun and it promotes a unique kind of combat, which is a really nice feature to have in a set.
I'm talking about Dreamwalk not being a straight upside ability and thus should be valuated as 'neutral'. Because of that most of your dreamwalkers feels a bit overpriced. For example, having your Dawn Crusaders totally stopped by 1/3's might feel terrible because who plays dawn crusaders have to win early but who plays Fate Visionarys is probably sitting on huge Premonition spells.
I'm aware that white is slightly lacking premium looking cards at common and I've been making small buffs and changes recently to address this. However despite this white has consistantly been doing rather well in our sealed and draft playtesting so I'm hesitant to do too radical an overhaul like I have done with Green and Red.
I won't doubt white is doing pretty well because it has the best removal after all.
Precisely my concerns are:
- White based aggro decks are too weak, which could make promotion cards go unpunished.
- Successful drafters will avoid starting draft white leading to those annoying formats were one color is always obviously open but people only go there because they are forced to. (more on this later)
White is certainly more of a support color in some ways but it does have the core of a aggressive tempo deck, it just depends on what tools it chooses to use to achieve that, if it be Bounce, fliers and dreamwalkers with UW, prowess, premoniiton and flashback with RW or small creatures and +1/+1 counter synergies with WG and Travel Preparations. (WB is a more controlling grindy deck.)
I will note that I am look for a way to incorperate another +1/+1 counter, instant card in white, most likely changing Scapehunting which is the common card I'm least happy with. This will help both the prowess and +1/+1 counter decks.
One problem I see here is that you don't draft white, you draft one of it's archetypes because aside from the removal pieces the cards are not very interchangeable. So players who starts to pick white is facing a huge risk. For example if you start to take white cards for a WU tempo deck and then later finds out that blue is not open but black is, so BW control is the way to go, you're screwed because a lot of the things you picked on your first pack are going to be dead picks.
I personally disagree with this as BR and UW aggro have both been very effective in our playtesting, but its certainly interesting you think that. What about the cardset makes you so uncertain about Aggressive strategies?
The aggro creatures are lacking while the controlling creatures and the removal are not.
While white plays a 2/1 Dawn Crusader and red plays a 1/2 Nightfire Brute or a 2/1 Jorallen Battlemage green and blue will play 1/3 creatures that stop all those while ramping or accelerating premonitions when needed.
Flashback plays extremely well with prowess and so does Premonition to a smaller extent. Circeus is correct that this set has been designed well before Magic Origins, however RW is probably the deck that needs a little help, probably with another flashback card in white at common. I do think Prowess is justified as an evergreen mechanic and note I have cards like Life’s Grandeur that can be used in both WB lifegain and in RW prowess.
Again thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely aware there are still things that can be improved and your thoughts are always helpful in identifying these issues.
Prowess evergreen status is only possible because of how blue and red generally works. In any other color Prowess needs specific support because Prowess creatures are actually awful if you're not playing a abnormally high amount of non-creatures spells. Cards like Defiant Strike exists to support Prowess, it's not something that would exist in another MTG set. I just saying, if you want white Prowess you will need proper support.
enter the dreamscape - Bounce is good. If it can also save a creature from removal, even better
Winged Reminiscence - A 3/3 flier beats everything else in the air at common. It also has a reasonable alternative cost.
Tideflow Denizen - Not the strongest card ever, but I don't think I'd ever be disappointed to be playing one.
Blue has a lot of other cards that seem great as well, even if they aren't just generally good. Loss of clarity is the most efficient mill spell at common I've ever seen, and will likely result in a Mill deck being viable, even if it doesn't always come together. Important blue cards for the mill deck are Loss of clarity, Fate Visionary, and Tideflow denizen. Lethargy also seems generally great, but makes your dreamwalk cards worse and is dead against white decks, pushing it out of the top 3. Inquisitive Mori and pestermite are also generically good cards that would probably make the top 5 blue cards. Blue seems very good to me.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
This color was hard for me to evaluate. The removal was mostly bad. Touch of Ikelious just seems way to slow in the format. Demean hits bombs well, but doesn't do anything against the aggressive tempo decks that seem to be filling the format. Sleepless stupor is insane when you are ahead, but does nothing if you are even a bit behind your opponent. Nightmarish choice has a similar problem to sleepless stupor. Restless horror is cool, but seems pretty bad if you can't suspend it on turn 1 or 2. A 5/5 for 7 just isn't very good. Black seems very swingy to me. If you are playing a heavy black deck, you are likely to win easily or have a hand filled with completely dead cards.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
White - Best
- Dusk Watcher
- Aven Harrier
- Champion of Altor
Dusk Watcher can be really big which is cool. Aven Harrier has potential because fliers are always good, and with Prowess attached it can be useful throughout the game. Champion of Altor just has a lot of flexibility and the ability to tap things is strong, but a bit interesting with dreamwalk being prominent.
Red seems pretty bad to me. I really don't like that one of its generically best cards is actually a GR card. Its creatures don't block well and can't attack well either given the number of 3 toughness creatures I see.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
3rd - Champion of Altor: Not bad stats and a good ability. Very weak in many decks but crazy in the right shell.
2nd - Cleasing Stroke: Very efficient removal, even at sorcery-speed.
1st - Dreamscape Purifier: Easy to splash, pseudo-evasive and has incredible stats. In most sets this could be a fine to good uncommon.
Overall white has a amazing top end in those cards, all which could easily be uncommon cards. However the color itself is very shallow. White's aggressive side seems to be overshadowed by the controlling cards (all the above cards fits a control shell better then a aggro one).
Blue
3rd - Think Twice: Good with Prowess and Premonition. Raw card advantage that saves bad hands. Crazy utility.
2nd - Winged Reminiscence: If Errant Ephemeron is a indicative, this should be bonkers. It's smaller and has equivalent alternative cost but premonitions can be quickened by mill and card draws and it has a more accessible non-alternative cost.
1st - Pestermite: Efficient evasive beater with two amazing abilities.
Honorable mention to Dreamscape Adept, Enter the Dreamscape, Fate Visionary, Inquisitive Mori, Subconscious Recall and Tideflow Denizen. Yeah, blue looks THAT good.
Black
3rd - Snatching Murkbeast: Efficient body and could take over the game in a stalled aboard. Green here is super easy to splash.
2nd - Sleepless Stupor: Sort of conditional removal but very cheap and this format has a lot of high toughness and creatures with tapped abilities. It shouldn't be that hard to keep this -2/-2 and more and that's enough for this to be a amazing removal.
1st - Shambling Ghoul: Best 2 drop creature in the format. The drawback becomes a upside if you want to block a dreamwalker.
Honorable mention to Shadowy Blessing and Moans of the Darkscape. Both cards I would be happy to play at common. I like the premonition support black give along side many fairly efficient bodies. It's a very deep color with only a couple of unplayable cards.
Red
3rd - Altor Oathbound: 4/2 trample alone is not the worst deal for 3R. With one more mana it becomes a living crusade and could close a game very quickly. It6's really strange WR is a prowess deck and it's paragon wants a token army instead...
2nd - Raving Spree: Removal, direct damage and artifact hate in one package. Not efficient in any department but still pretty good.
1st - Memories of the Earth: Not the fastest card but the reward is huge for a common. I mean you play this and is attacking with two 4/4 in the following turn. It also has synergy with discard/draw because the flashback is crazy efficient. Could certainly be a uncommon.
Red has the particularity that it's best cards don't want to be played in any red deck (a bit like white) so drafting it could be tricky and lucky-based. The red cards I choose are not cards that helps you go back into the game when you're behind (even through Memories could certainly do that), but rather cards that let you close a game or break a board stall. I feel like red begin really bad at turning the tides but really good at riding the waves is a successful aspect of this set.
With tht said, I really think WR Prowess needs some reform. Looking at your common cards, the spells that I want most to play with prowess are neither white or red. They are green. Travel Preparations, Predator's Thrill and Awekening Surge are amazing with prowess creatures. Midnight Howling is cool because it let's you grow the board and enjoy the bonus. Even stuff like Abundant Growth and Unrecognized Horizons sounds helpful. With all that said I wouldn't be surprised if GW Prowess are more successful and commonly drafted then WR Prowess or GW Counters.
Green
3rd - Aether Predator: Utterly efficient. Boosts premonitions.
2nd - Predator's Thrill: Green murder.
1st - Travel Preparations: Broken card is broken. Should be a uncommon.
Overall green seems be the opposite of white and red. It's best cards can easily fit any deck (although they fit some decks better then others) and it has a large pool of pretty good filler. Imo the only issue in green is that it needs to have a few more cards that covers specific themes. For example, there's no premonition despite Aether Predator being so good with those. Also the +1/+1 GW theme seems very underdeveloped. There's a single white card and green card that let's you put counters and a single white card that cares about then. Aside from that there's a feel cards that uses +1/+! counters but have zero synergy with any of these making things a little bit confusing.
In terms of color balance I would say blue is too strong and needs a nerf, white is too weak (not white as a whole, just its aggro oriented creatures) and needs a buff. I feel like black, red and green are the most well balanced colors but I would still give red aggro a little bit more support.
Predator's thrill - Efficient fight and green has big enough creatures to use it.
Somnasaurus Force - Giant evasive beaters are usually pretty good
Green seems solid to me. Lots of just good cards that should be fine no matter what deck you build.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I think the set is suffering severely from "power level flattening syndrome" ... I go through the list and think "That's a 6/10... That's a 6/10... That's a 6/10..."
In general you are right that I do strive to have a reasonably "flat" power lever at common, which matches the developmental tendencies of WOTC and makes in my belief for a good limited environment.
I don't think it matches WotC principals whatsoever outside of core sets (notwithstanding Origins which was the most awesome bestest core set evar). For many years now, every expert expansion has had plenty of exciting (if not powerful) commons. Power doesn't necessarily equate to exciting and vice versa. I'm sure you know this better than I do, but you're not applying this knowledge to Dreamscape.
However I am definitely aware of the issue you bring up of wanting exciting cards at common to make the opening of a pack more exciting. In fact cards like Demean, Dreamscape Purifier and Travel Preparations are there to really push above the normal curve for each color. Maybe you feel like I need to do this more but I'll also mention that it is very very common for players to underestimate the power of both flashback and premonition. I've had many tell me they think Subconcious Recall is borderline or unplayable while those who I do drafts with sometimes has doubts wherever it can be at common no matter what the cost. same with a card like Midnight Howling or Memories of the Earth which are stronger than they look.
I wouldn't say Dreamscape lacks strong commons, just that their strengths are subtle (especially to new players), which is okay to some degree because that allows for discovery while playing (even for advanced players), but too much subtlety will simply turn people off at the surface level, before they even give it enough of a chance to scratch the surface of discovery. Of course, none of this matters unless you want to design a set that WotC would actually print, which is what I think you (if not all of us) want.
In short, I think Dreamscape is a very intricately interconnected set (especially for a custom set). It's also very Spike-Johnny oriented (at common) which as you know isn't good. It desperately needs some flashy Timmy commons - something eye-catching and simple that a new player will look at and say "This is awesome." yet which double as signposts on the pathway to Dreamscape's deeper levels of interconnectedness and higher levels of power.
A hard set to evaluate without play, since there are clearly a lot of interlocking parts and both premonition and dreamwalk are mechanics whose play is difficult to grok. That said, I'll provide my impressions after giving it a pretty good amount of thought.
White: I'd like to echo that the powerlevels here seem too flat. Cleansing Stroke and Dreamscape Purifier seem like the top two pretty clearly. After that Vital Rest, Protect the Dreamer, Lingering Glow, and Lost in the Moment seem pretty close. I think ultimately I'd give the nod to Vital Rest to round out the top three. Bottom three I have as Life's Grandeur, Purified Visionary, and Dusk Watcher -- I suspect they are each playable in prowess, BW, and certain aggro decks however.
Blue: Blue has 6 cards that I think I’d put above the third best white one. That seems pretty out of whack, but maybe I’m just undervaluing the white ones. The most generally good is Pestermite, so it’s what I’d lean toward P1P1. After that I guess I’d put Winged Reminiscence and then Fate Visionary. Bottom three: Lethargy, Mental Inertia, Jorallen Hypnotist.
Black: Top three: Demean, Restless Horror, Moans of the Darkscape
Bottom three: Nightmarish Choice, Darkscape Visionary, Hope Slicer
I thought this was the most reasonable power distribution so far. A nice set of cards.
Red: Top three: Flash of Inspiration, Memories of the Earth, Raving Spree
Bottom three: Sparkweaver Kirin, Blinding Finesse, Hysteria Mori
Red has some cool designs, but way more cards I’d want away from my maindeck than the previous three colors.
Green: I guess I’ll put green’s top three commons as Travel Preparations, Midnight Howling, and Predator’s Thrill on a P1P1 basis. Bottom three:Unravel the Delusion, Sommeil Delver, Reality Pull. It really bugs me that Shimmerhide Rhino doesn’t have some sort of hexproof or similar ability.
Thoughts on artifacts: Memory Conduit looks sweet, and Sword of Myth is an upgrade to Slab Hammer that I’d be happy with in any deck that wants to attack. I wouldn’t look to main the other three outside of specific archtypes.
The duals are nice and simple, but it bothers me that the RW white is so much worse than the others since neither color has premonition.
Overall my general impression would be that U~=G>B>W>R
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
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White: Cleansing Stroke, Dreamscape Purifier, Protect the Dreamer (HM: Lost in the Moment)
White has a very powerful removal suite, but outside of Dreamscape Purifier, relies heavily on synergies to make it creatures worthwhile. Lost in the Moment is potentially better then much of the removal in its double fog applications and versatility offensively and defensively, but is hard to judge in limited without playing.
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Green: Dreamweaver, Predators Thrill, Somnosaurus Force (HMs: Travel Preparations, Viridescent Kirin)
Green looks quite strong once you hit turn three between starting to get its efficient bodies plus 3 removal(ish) spell at 3CC. A 5 power constant trampler to top its curve at 5 mana makes the color very effecient and deadly. Travel Preparations deserves mentions as efficient permanent boost that is the center piece for an archetype. I would be drawn to play green.
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Blue: Enter the Dreamscape, Pestermite, Winged Reminiscence (HM: Think Twice)
Blue has a nice selection of options and directions to go in thanks to some efficient draw options and the use of premonition for added versatility. As a stand alone it doesn't seem the strongest, but it's potential synergies with higher rarity cards has the most potential.
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Red: Altor's Chosen, Flash of Inspiration, Memories of Earth (HMs: Ravaging Spree, Stings of the Past)
Reds removal options are decent for limited, though not the strongest it's ever had. That said, it actually has some pretty solid creatures. Altor would still be a useful creature even if you never use its activate ability, it which case it becomes gross. Common duals increase the odds there. Memories of Earth is arguably reds strongest card and interacts in both colors really well. Red seems like my top choice for a secondary color, though it still holds up better then white or blue on its own.
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Black: Demean, Raise the Lost, Snatching Murkbeast (HM: Touch of Ikelious)
Black feels... odd. It has some decent removal options, and Raise the Lost makes me want to splash black regardless of pulls so I can recur whatever bomb creature I pick up later (and Hey! there are duel land commons that could enable that too.) Murkbeast seems like a better threat then Restless Horror outside of comboing premonition. Black is in a weird spot for me. There are a couple of cards that I'd want to use from it, but making it the core of my deck seems foolish unless i try for some mad combos/synergies.
Now that I look at this set a little more closely, it seems obvious that a non-multicolor set has no use for a cycle of common duals.
There is nowhere near enough +1/+1 counter support at common to justify Emissary of Light's effect.
There is no justification for Scapehunting not targeting either the cards or the player.
Even though I see what it's supposed to do, I'm really not enamored with the white untapping effects. I look at Lost in the Moment and I really, REALLY want to make it main blue instead of main white.
Cruel Worship gives me the same reaction. Black does not grant haste at common.
Is it an accident how close Lurking Murkbeast and Altor Oathbound feel?
Awakening surge is just asking for trouble because I suspect even experienced player are going to mess up occasionally as to whether untapping the creature causes its P/T to change.
Thanks for your critiques, I hope I can answer your questions.
The duel lands at common are one of the few color fixers at common and have been helpful in allowing splashes in a similar manner to Evolving Wilds or Unknown Shores without large multicolor themes. Note how I don't have a card like Traveler's Amulet etc. Thus the fixing ends up being very similar in level to a set like Theros. Also note how well the lands play with all the mechanics.
With Emissary of Light I agree, I justhaven't figured out a good fix until this morning. I have changed it to the following: Emissary of Light1W
Creature - Human Cleric (C)
Emissary of Light has flying as long as you control a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/3
I've mentioned previously how Scapehunting is marked for a redesign.
Cruel Worship and Lost in the Moment are certainly bends but hybrid design space is often narrow. These play well (though Cruel Worship should cost 1B) and the bend for Lost in the Moment is especially justified considering the themes of the set.
As for Lurking Murkbeast and Altor Oathbound, they just fell victim to the requirements of the mana curve leaving them as both 4cmc off color activated creatures. Its a very low priority issue that probably isn't getting changed at this stage.
A hard set to evaluate without play, since there are clearly a lot of interlocking parts and both premonition and dreamwalk are mechanics whose play is difficult to grok. That said, I'll provide my impressions after giving it a pretty good amount of thought.
....It really bugs me that Shimmerhide Rhino doesn’t have some sort of hexproof or similar ability.
Thanks for the feedback! Your right that it used to be a functional reprint of Rubblebelt Rhino, thus the name and flavor text. However it got moved around to fix green's 3 and 4 drops which have been lacking until recently. I'm look to change the name and flavor text soon.
In terms of color balance I would say blue is too strong and needs a nerf, white is too weak (not white as a whole, just its aggro oriented creatures) and needs a buff. I feel like black, red and green are the most well balanced colors but I would still give red aggro a little bit more support.
Thanks for the feedback. I definitely agree that black and green are the "most well balanced colors." Having a good range of cards that can take your in multiple directions. Note however that my opinion on green may change in the next round of playtesting as I haven't played since I've reworked their 3 and 4 drops (adding Rhino and modifying AEther Predator.)
3rd - Altor Oathbound: 4/2 trample alone is not the worst deal for 3R. With one more mana it becomes a living crusade and could close a game very quickly. It's really strange WR is a prowess deck and it's paragon wants a token army instead...
This just ended up being that white activated abilities without a tap cost are reasonably narrow, doubly so when you need to to work within RW. This means that a card like Crackling Figments can both trigger prowess and provide multiple bodies to pump. Also it means your smaller prowess units can be relevant when if you run out of noncreature spells.
Thanks for your critiques, I hope I can answer your questions.
The duel lands at common are one of the few color fixers at common and have been helpful in allowing splashes in a similar manner to Evolving Wilds or Unknown Shores without large multicolor themes. Note how I don't have a card like Traveler's Amulet etc. Thus the fixing ends up being very similar in level to a set like Theros. Also note how well the lands play with all the mechanics.
We do splashes a lot in most format. What a cycle of common duals do is strongly encourage three+ goodstuff decks. Note how in RTR block the right play was almost always three colors, and this is even easier to do in a set where there is not even an actual multicolor theme.
With Emissary of Light I agree, I justhaven't figured out a good fix until this morning. I have changed it to the following: Emissary of Light1W
Creature - Human Cleric (C)
Emissary of Light has flying as long as you control a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/3
How about 1/3 base flying, extra bonus (possibly lifelink) if you control a +1/+1?
Cruel Worship and Lost in the Moment are certainly bends but hybrid design space is often narrow. These play well (though Cruel Worship should cost 1B) and the bend for Lost in the Moment is especially justified considering the themes of the set.
My issue is more that I believe such cards should bend on the flashback color, not the main color, especially for a card like Cruel Worship. If you look at Innistrad block, most (though not all) cards that did bend did so in that direction (most noticeably Fires of Undeath and Forbidden Alchemy). Could Cruel Worship do something with menace instead? And does it really need to be an instant?
I believe the Word of Maro is that dual lands that ETB tapped (Meandering River and variants) are by default uncommon. Only when the set has a strong multicolor theme are they printed at common. You said the set doesn't have other fixing like Evolving Wilds but why don't you just make an Evolving Wilds variant that self-mills and use the other four slots for something else? It's also a bit aesthetically weird that all ten two-color archetypes are equally supported yet only five of them get their corresponding duals at common (even if everything ends up being balanced).
I guess what I'm asking is the following: Sets without multicolor themes can do common mana fixing just fine "the normal way." What do you think is gained by having these common duals lands that you can't gain "the normal way?"
A couple of reasons:
5 color fixers such as Unknown Shore, Evolving Wilds, Traveler's Amulet or Prismatic Lens have far less developmental wiggle room to allow them to both remain playable while also fulfilling the great gameplay that the small milling effects create. Even if I did find 2-4 designs that fit developmentally they are nowhere near as elegant as the current designs.
The other issue is signposting, Dreamscape as a limited environment has a lot of interactions that can overwhelm newplayers if they don't have an idea of what to do. The duel lands combined with the off-color cycles and uncommon gold cards help nudge players who are looking for direction. Especially if seen late it can give players not super experienced in signals something super obvious.
Do you have a source from that "Word of Maro"?, Like I'm aware that common duels have only really appeared in multicolor sets but I don't remember any specific statement about it.
Also BenF if you have time I'd really appreciate a Top 3 of each color.
2 color decks tended to be better than 3 color decks in 3x RTR, 3x GTC, and DGR.
The duals occupy an interesting space in that the ETB effect is powerful enough to run in a lot of decks even if they are functionally monocolor. It seems very possible that the WB land is a higher pick for UB than for WB, for instance. This in turn encourages decks which care about GY/premonition to pick off color duals highly, which makes them much more capable of splashing a 3td/4th color for some off color flashback.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I am not very skilled in evaluation but I must first say you have done excellent work with this set! The concept is great and I feel I have a good idea about the world through looking at the mechanics and art/flavor text. That being said, at first blush (cause I'd like to playtest before saying how good something is)
Whites best commons are Dreamscape Purifier, Cleansing Stroke, Lost in the Moment
for Blue I like, Subconscious Recall, Pestermite, Winged Reminiscence
for Black Restless Horror, Demean, Moans of the Darkscape
for Red Jorallen Battlemage, Flash of Inspiration, Blinding Finesse
and for Green Whispering Bashe, Travel Preparations, Reality Pull.
Again this is all with no playtesting and I just picked cards I was willing to pick early and try to play with.
However I'm looking for opinions on what are the top
and bottom3 cards for each color in the context of limited.Getting enough info on this and comparing this to the playtest data I've beeen collecting will help me fine tune the color balance and note what cards look better or worse than they have been playing.
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It is a natural instinct to center all cards at a power level where they are "fair", but useful. And players always complain when a common is very strong (when they play against it). But you have to ignore those people. It makes for a less exciting draft format if you can't go nuts about what you're getting passed. No powerful commons means that reading signals is more difficult. You have to deliberately push some cards and weaken some others so that there's a bit of variance.
There are some good, but not great (Pacifism, Oblivion Strike) removal spells, but the creatures seem all very interchangeable. Exceptions are maybe Dreamscape Purifier and Equinox Sage.
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Doom has already gone through significant playtesting of this mechanic and it clearly does what he wants it to do for the set.
I don't see what's new about a color being significantly weaker/unfocused than the rest (see also: BFZ green) within a set.
This one only makes sense if you assume this set was designed after Origins. I'm pretty sure when Doombringer decided on using Prowess, it was still assumed that the mechanic was a block mechanic (and a Jeskai one, I should point out), not a preview for an evergreen.
General notes:
Best of:
- Manite
Thanks for the feedback.
In general you are right that I do strive to have a reasonably "flat" power lever at common, which matches the developmental tendencies of WOTC and makes in my belief for a good limited environment.
However I am definitely aware of the issue you bring up of wanting exciting cards at common to make the opening of a pack more exciting. In fact cards like Demean, Dreamscape Purifier and Travel Preparations are there to really push above the normal curve for each color. Maybe you feel like I need to do this more but I'll also mention that it is very very common for players to underestimate the power of both flashback and premonition. I've had many tell me they think Subconcious Recall is borderline or unplayable while those who I do drafts with sometimes has doubts wherever it can be at common no matter what the cost. same with a card like Midnight Howling or Memories of the Earth which are stronger than they look.
Currently Red has had a lot of cards moved around recently and thus no longer really has a premium card which is an issue I'm aware of and looking at how to solve without making it so suicidally aggressive like it has been in previous iterations.
I've talked about dreamwalk in the discussion thread and on the podcast but I'll re-iterate how it plays here.
Dreamwalk pushes the format to be aggressive and tempo your opponent out, while your right that unlike other keywords it isn't a "strict upside" as it can be annoying if your opponent is racing you and your slightly on the back foot. However the benefit when you on the play for example and play a turn 2 Dawn Crusader is very strong as your opponent can no longer block with creatures the turn they come down, leaving them always on the back foot, especially when combined with Cleansing Stroke to kill a tapped creature or Lingering Glow to prevent them from attacking in the first place.
Also Dreamwalk breaks board stalls most of the time making cards like Dreamscape Purifier with high toughness a lot better than they seem as the vigilance and high toughness mean your opponent has difficult attacking you. (though makes you vulnerable to dreamwalkers.) The card has been a 2/5 for along time and was still playable filler, but as a 3/5 it suddenly jumps to very strong.
I'm aware that white is slightly lacking premium looking cards at common and I've been making small buffs and changes recently to address this. However despite this white has consistantly been doing rather well in our sealed and draft playtesting so I'm hesitant to do too radical an overhaul like I have done with Green and Red.
White is certainly more of a support color in some ways but it does have the core of a aggressive tempo deck, it just depends on what tools it chooses to use to achieve that, if it be Bounce, fliers and dreamwalkers with UW, prowess, premoniiton and flashback with RW or small creatures and +1/+1 counter synergies with WG and Travel Preparations. (WB is a more controlling grindy deck.)
I will note that I am look for a way to incorperate another +1/+1 counter, instant card in white, most likely changing Scapehunting which is the common card I'm least happy with. This will help both the prowess and +1/+1 counter decks.
I personally disagree with this as BR and UW aggro have both been very effective in our playtesting, but its certainly interesting you think that. What about the cardset makes you so uncertain about Aggressive strategies?
Flashback plays extremely well with prowess and so does Premonition to a smaller extent. Circeus is correct that this set has been designed well before Magic Origins, however RW is probably the deck that needs a little help, probably with another flashback card in white at common. I do think Prowess is justified as an evergreen mechanic and note I have cards like Life’s Grandeur that can be used in both WB lifegain and in RW prowess.
Again thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely aware there are still things that can be improved and your thoughts are always helpful in identifying these issues.
Again I'd love to hear from everyone What are the Top 3 commons for each Color? for limited.
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White dies have a flat power issue, although my lack of knowledge of how exactly Dramwalk plays may complicate my top three choice of Lost in the Moment, Lingering Glow and Dusk Watcher
In blue, Enter the Dreamscape is a mandatory member of the top three. Like the white Lost on the Moment It's just too swizz-army-knife-y not to be. Next are Pestermite and Inquisitive Mori, because you hardly ever go wrong with value evasion (but it's difficult to leave Think Twice out).
In black, Demean is your serviceable removal. Also getting my votes are Shadow Blessing and the above-curve Snatching Murkbeast.
Red would seem like possibly the best color if its removal wasn't so underwhelming. Amongst a number cards I would probably want to pick very high are Crackling Figments, Memories of the Earth and Mindi's Dramatics.
When in green, you can hardly go wrong with a deathtouch-y blocker, so Dreamweaver is in my tops. U/G is clearly a self-mill archetype, and so Aether Predator looks like pretty good value. I think my third card is the versatile-looking Viridescent Kirin (although Midnight Howling is very close behind).
My point is not that Dreamwalk is a bad ability. I'm totally supportive of abilities that are not straight up upsides. I'm pretty convinced it is fun and it promotes a unique kind of combat, which is a really nice feature to have in a set.
I'm talking about Dreamwalk not being a straight upside ability and thus should be valuated as 'neutral'. Because of that most of your dreamwalkers feels a bit overpriced. For example, having your Dawn Crusaders totally stopped by 1/3's might feel terrible because who plays dawn crusaders have to win early but who plays Fate Visionarys is probably sitting on huge Premonition spells.
I won't doubt white is doing pretty well because it has the best removal after all.
Precisely my concerns are:
- White based aggro decks are too weak, which could make promotion cards go unpunished.
- Successful drafters will avoid starting draft white leading to those annoying formats were one color is always obviously open but people only go there because they are forced to. (more on this later)
One problem I see here is that you don't draft white, you draft one of it's archetypes because aside from the removal pieces the cards are not very interchangeable. So players who starts to pick white is facing a huge risk. For example if you start to take white cards for a WU tempo deck and then later finds out that blue is not open but black is, so BW control is the way to go, you're screwed because a lot of the things you picked on your first pack are going to be dead picks.
The aggro creatures are lacking while the controlling creatures and the removal are not.
While white plays a 2/1 Dawn Crusader and red plays a 1/2 Nightfire Brute or a 2/1 Jorallen Battlemage green and blue will play 1/3 creatures that stop all those while ramping or accelerating premonitions when needed.
Prowess evergreen status is only possible because of how blue and red generally works. In any other color Prowess needs specific support because Prowess creatures are actually awful if you're not playing a abnormally high amount of non-creatures spells. Cards like Defiant Strike exists to support Prowess, it's not something that would exist in another MTG set. I just saying, if you want white Prowess you will need proper support.
It's not new but still means flawed limited.
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Blue has a lot of other cards that seem great as well, even if they aren't just generally good. Loss of clarity is the most efficient mill spell at common I've ever seen, and will likely result in a Mill deck being viable, even if it doesn't always come together. Important blue cards for the mill deck are Loss of clarity, Fate Visionary, and Tideflow denizen. Lethargy also seems generally great, but makes your dreamwalk cards worse and is dead against white decks, pushing it out of the top 3. Inquisitive Mori and pestermite are also generically good cards that would probably make the top 5 blue cards. Blue seems very good to me.
- Manite
Best of:
This color was hard for me to evaluate. The removal was mostly bad. Touch of Ikelious just seems way to slow in the format. Demean hits bombs well, but doesn't do anything against the aggressive tempo decks that seem to be filling the format. Sleepless stupor is insane when you are ahead, but does nothing if you are even a bit behind your opponent. Nightmarish choice has a similar problem to sleepless stupor. Restless horror is cool, but seems pretty bad if you can't suspend it on turn 1 or 2. A 5/5 for 7 just isn't very good. Black seems very swingy to me. If you are playing a heavy black deck, you are likely to win easily or have a hand filled with completely dead cards.
- Manite
White - Best
- Dusk Watcher
- Aven Harrier
- Champion of Altor
Dusk Watcher can be really big which is cool. Aven Harrier has potential because fliers are always good, and with Prowess attached it can be useful throughout the game. Champion of Altor just has a lot of flexibility and the ability to tap things is strong, but a bit interesting with dreamwalk being prominent.
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Best of:
Red seems pretty bad to me. I really don't like that one of its generically best cards is actually a GR card. Its creatures don't block well and can't attack well either given the number of 3 toughness creatures I see.
- Manite
3rd - Champion of Altor: Not bad stats and a good ability. Very weak in many decks but crazy in the right shell.
2nd - Cleasing Stroke: Very efficient removal, even at sorcery-speed.
1st - Dreamscape Purifier: Easy to splash, pseudo-evasive and has incredible stats. In most sets this could be a fine to good uncommon.
Overall white has a amazing top end in those cards, all which could easily be uncommon cards. However the color itself is very shallow. White's aggressive side seems to be overshadowed by the controlling cards (all the above cards fits a control shell better then a aggro one).
Blue
3rd - Think Twice: Good with Prowess and Premonition. Raw card advantage that saves bad hands. Crazy utility.
2nd - Winged Reminiscence: If Errant Ephemeron is a indicative, this should be bonkers. It's smaller and has equivalent alternative cost but premonitions can be quickened by mill and card draws and it has a more accessible non-alternative cost.
1st - Pestermite: Efficient evasive beater with two amazing abilities.
Honorable mention to Dreamscape Adept, Enter the Dreamscape, Fate Visionary, Inquisitive Mori, Subconscious Recall and Tideflow Denizen. Yeah, blue looks THAT good.
Black
3rd - Snatching Murkbeast: Efficient body and could take over the game in a stalled aboard. Green here is super easy to splash.
2nd - Sleepless Stupor: Sort of conditional removal but very cheap and this format has a lot of high toughness and creatures with tapped abilities. It shouldn't be that hard to keep this -2/-2 and more and that's enough for this to be a amazing removal.
1st - Shambling Ghoul: Best 2 drop creature in the format. The drawback becomes a upside if you want to block a dreamwalker.
Honorable mention to Shadowy Blessing and Moans of the Darkscape. Both cards I would be happy to play at common. I like the premonition support black give along side many fairly efficient bodies. It's a very deep color with only a couple of unplayable cards.
Red
3rd - Altor Oathbound: 4/2 trample alone is not the worst deal for 3R. With one more mana it becomes a living crusade and could close a game very quickly. It6's really strange WR is a prowess deck and it's paragon wants a token army instead...
2nd - Raving Spree: Removal, direct damage and artifact hate in one package. Not efficient in any department but still pretty good.
1st - Memories of the Earth: Not the fastest card but the reward is huge for a common. I mean you play this and is attacking with two 4/4 in the following turn. It also has synergy with discard/draw because the flashback is crazy efficient. Could certainly be a uncommon.
Red has the particularity that it's best cards don't want to be played in any red deck (a bit like white) so drafting it could be tricky and lucky-based. The red cards I choose are not cards that helps you go back into the game when you're behind (even through Memories could certainly do that), but rather cards that let you close a game or break a board stall. I feel like red begin really bad at turning the tides but really good at riding the waves is a successful aspect of this set.
With tht said, I really think WR Prowess needs some reform. Looking at your common cards, the spells that I want most to play with prowess are neither white or red. They are green. Travel Preparations, Predator's Thrill and Awekening Surge are amazing with prowess creatures. Midnight Howling is cool because it let's you grow the board and enjoy the bonus. Even stuff like Abundant Growth and Unrecognized Horizons sounds helpful. With all that said I wouldn't be surprised if GW Prowess are more successful and commonly drafted then WR Prowess or GW Counters.
Green
3rd - Aether Predator: Utterly efficient. Boosts premonitions.
2nd - Predator's Thrill: Green murder.
1st - Travel Preparations: Broken card is broken. Should be a uncommon.
Overall green seems be the opposite of white and red. It's best cards can easily fit any deck (although they fit some decks better then others) and it has a large pool of pretty good filler. Imo the only issue in green is that it needs to have a few more cards that covers specific themes. For example, there's no premonition despite Aether Predator being so good with those. Also the +1/+1 GW theme seems very underdeveloped. There's a single white card and green card that let's you put counters and a single white card that cares about then. Aside from that there's a feel cards that uses +1/+! counters but have zero synergy with any of these making things a little bit confusing.
In terms of color balance I would say blue is too strong and needs a nerf, white is too weak (not white as a whole, just its aggro oriented creatures) and needs a buff. I feel like black, red and green are the most well balanced colors but I would still give red aggro a little bit more support.
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Green seems solid to me. Lots of just good cards that should be fine no matter what deck you build.
- Manite
I don't think it matches WotC principals whatsoever outside of core sets (notwithstanding Origins which was the most awesome bestest core set evar). For many years now, every expert expansion has had plenty of exciting (if not powerful) commons. Power doesn't necessarily equate to exciting and vice versa. I'm sure you know this better than I do, but you're not applying this knowledge to Dreamscape.
I wouldn't say Dreamscape lacks strong commons, just that their strengths are subtle (especially to new players), which is okay to some degree because that allows for discovery while playing (even for advanced players), but too much subtlety will simply turn people off at the surface level, before they even give it enough of a chance to scratch the surface of discovery. Of course, none of this matters unless you want to design a set that WotC would actually print, which is what I think you (if not all of us) want.
In short, I think Dreamscape is a very intricately interconnected set (especially for a custom set). It's also very Spike-Johnny oriented (at common) which as you know isn't good. It desperately needs some flashy Timmy commons - something eye-catching and simple that a new player will look at and say "This is awesome." yet which double as signposts on the pathway to Dreamscape's deeper levels of interconnectedness and higher levels of power.
White: I'd like to echo that the powerlevels here seem too flat. Cleansing Stroke and Dreamscape Purifier seem like the top two pretty clearly. After that Vital Rest, Protect the Dreamer, Lingering Glow, and Lost in the Moment seem pretty close. I think ultimately I'd give the nod to Vital Rest to round out the top three. Bottom three I have as Life's Grandeur, Purified Visionary, and Dusk Watcher -- I suspect they are each playable in prowess, BW, and certain aggro decks however.
Blue: Blue has 6 cards that I think I’d put above the third best white one. That seems pretty out of whack, but maybe I’m just undervaluing the white ones. The most generally good is Pestermite, so it’s what I’d lean toward P1P1. After that I guess I’d put Winged Reminiscence and then Fate Visionary. Bottom three: Lethargy, Mental Inertia, Jorallen Hypnotist.
Black: Top three: Demean, Restless Horror, Moans of the Darkscape
Bottom three: Nightmarish Choice, Darkscape Visionary, Hope Slicer
I thought this was the most reasonable power distribution so far. A nice set of cards.
Red: Top three: Flash of Inspiration, Memories of the Earth, Raving Spree
Bottom three: Sparkweaver Kirin, Blinding Finesse, Hysteria Mori
Red has some cool designs, but way more cards I’d want away from my maindeck than the previous three colors.
Green: I guess I’ll put green’s top three commons as Travel Preparations, Midnight Howling, and Predator’s Thrill on a P1P1 basis. Bottom three:Unravel the Delusion, Sommeil Delver, Reality Pull. It really bugs me that Shimmerhide Rhino doesn’t have some sort of hexproof or similar ability.
Thoughts on artifacts: Memory Conduit looks sweet, and Sword of Myth is an upgrade to Slab Hammer that I’d be happy with in any deck that wants to attack. I wouldn’t look to main the other three outside of specific archtypes.
The duals are nice and simple, but it bothers me that the RW white is so much worse than the others since neither color has premonition.
Overall my general impression would be that U~=G>B>W>R
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White: Cleansing Stroke, Dreamscape Purifier, Protect the Dreamer (HM: Lost in the Moment)
White has a very powerful removal suite, but outside of Dreamscape Purifier, relies heavily on synergies to make it creatures worthwhile. Lost in the Moment is potentially better then much of the removal in its double fog applications and versatility offensively and defensively, but is hard to judge in limited without playing.
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Green: Dreamweaver, Predators Thrill, Somnosaurus Force (HMs: Travel Preparations, Viridescent Kirin)
Green looks quite strong once you hit turn three between starting to get its efficient bodies plus 3 removal(ish) spell at 3CC. A 5 power constant trampler to top its curve at 5 mana makes the color very effecient and deadly. Travel Preparations deserves mentions as efficient permanent boost that is the center piece for an archetype. I would be drawn to play green.
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Blue: Enter the Dreamscape, Pestermite, Winged Reminiscence (HM: Think Twice)
Blue has a nice selection of options and directions to go in thanks to some efficient draw options and the use of premonition for added versatility. As a stand alone it doesn't seem the strongest, but it's potential synergies with higher rarity cards has the most potential.
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Red: Altor's Chosen, Flash of Inspiration, Memories of Earth (HMs: Ravaging Spree, Stings of the Past)
Reds removal options are decent for limited, though not the strongest it's ever had. That said, it actually has some pretty solid creatures. Altor would still be a useful creature even if you never use its activate ability, it which case it becomes gross. Common duals increase the odds there. Memories of Earth is arguably reds strongest card and interacts in both colors really well. Red seems like my top choice for a secondary color, though it still holds up better then white or blue on its own.
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Black: Demean, Raise the Lost, Snatching Murkbeast (HM: Touch of Ikelious)
Black feels... odd. It has some decent removal options, and Raise the Lost makes me want to splash black regardless of pulls so I can recur whatever bomb creature I pick up later (and Hey! there are duel land commons that could enable that too.) Murkbeast seems like a better threat then Restless Horror outside of comboing premonition. Black is in a weird spot for me. There are a couple of cards that I'd want to use from it, but making it the core of my deck seems foolish unless i try for some mad combos/synergies.
Thanks for your critiques, I hope I can answer your questions.
The duel lands at common are one of the few color fixers at common and have been helpful in allowing splashes in a similar manner to Evolving Wilds or Unknown Shores without large multicolor themes. Note how I don't have a card like Traveler's Amulet etc. Thus the fixing ends up being very similar in level to a set like Theros. Also note how well the lands play with all the mechanics.
With Emissary of Light I agree, I justhaven't figured out a good fix until this morning. I have changed it to the following:
Emissary of Light 1W
Creature - Human Cleric (C)
Emissary of Light has flying as long as you control a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it.
1/3
I've mentioned previously how Scapehunting is marked for a redesign.
Cruel Worship and Lost in the Moment are certainly bends but hybrid design space is often narrow. These play well (though Cruel Worship should cost 1B) and the bend for Lost in the Moment is especially justified considering the themes of the set.
As for Lurking Murkbeast and Altor Oathbound, they just fell victim to the requirements of the mana curve leaving them as both 4cmc off color activated creatures. Its a very low priority issue that probably isn't getting changed at this stage.
Thanks for the feedback! Your right that it used to be a functional reprint of Rubblebelt Rhino, thus the name and flavor text. However it got moved around to fix green's 3 and 4 drops which have been lacking until recently. I'm look to change the name and flavor text soon.
Thanks for the feedback. I definitely agree that black and green are the "most well balanced colors." Having a good range of cards that can take your in multiple directions. Note however that my opinion on green may change in the next round of playtesting as I haven't played since I've reworked their 3 and 4 drops (adding Rhino and modifying AEther Predator.)
This just ended up being that white activated abilities without a tap cost are reasonably narrow, doubly so when you need to to work within RW. This means that a card like Crackling Figments can both trigger prowess and provide multiple bodies to pump. Also it means your smaller prowess units can be relevant when if you run out of noncreature spells.
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We do splashes a lot in most format. What a cycle of common duals do is strongly encourage three+ goodstuff decks. Note how in RTR block the right play was almost always three colors, and this is even easier to do in a set where there is not even an actual multicolor theme.
How about 1/3 base flying, extra bonus (possibly lifelink) if you control a +1/+1?
My issue is more that I believe such cards should bend on the flashback color, not the main color, especially for a card like Cruel Worship. If you look at Innistrad block, most (though not all) cards that did bend did so in that direction (most noticeably Fires of Undeath and Forbidden Alchemy). Could Cruel Worship do something with menace instead? And does it really need to be an instant?
A couple of reasons:
5 color fixers such as Unknown Shore, Evolving Wilds, Traveler's Amulet or Prismatic Lens have far less developmental wiggle room to allow them to both remain playable while also fulfilling the great gameplay that the small milling effects create. Even if I did find 2-4 designs that fit developmentally they are nowhere near as elegant as the current designs.
The other issue is signposting, Dreamscape as a limited environment has a lot of interactions that can overwhelm newplayers if they don't have an idea of what to do. The duel lands combined with the off-color cycles and uncommon gold cards help nudge players who are looking for direction. Especially if seen late it can give players not super experienced in signals something super obvious.
Do you have a source from that "Word of Maro"?, Like I'm aware that common duels have only really appeared in multicolor sets but I don't remember any specific statement about it.
Also BenF if you have time I'd really appreciate a Top 3 of each color.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
The duals occupy an interesting space in that the ETB effect is powerful enough to run in a lot of decks even if they are functionally monocolor. It seems very possible that the WB land is a higher pick for UB than for WB, for instance. This in turn encourages decks which care about GY/premonition to pick off color duals highly, which makes them much more capable of splashing a 3td/4th color for some off color flashback.
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Whites best commons are Dreamscape Purifier, Cleansing Stroke, Lost in the Moment
for Blue I like, Subconscious Recall, Pestermite, Winged Reminiscence
for Black Restless Horror, Demean, Moans of the Darkscape
for Red Jorallen Battlemage, Flash of Inspiration, Blinding Finesse
and for Green Whispering Bashe, Travel Preparations, Reality Pull.
Again this is all with no playtesting and I just picked cards I was willing to pick early and try to play with.