Yep, let's go with the icons of science vs. the icons of religious faith. Speed vs. Cunning didn't explore all possible notions of speed or all possible definitions of cunning. We can afford to focus on the most expected experiences within fantasy tropes. When you mention Faith to a fantasy gamer, they tend to think more in terms of religion than zen-harmony.
@MOON-E.
I get green and faith, I already accepted that. My comment was more to do with the definition of natural, in that has different meanings which vary in actual relevance. As far as I am concerned, natural isn't a useful term because the meanings of natural as "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind" is different from natural as in "relating to earthly human or physical nature as distinct from the spiritual or supernatural realm" (a Christian theology definition, take note) or natural as in "in accordance with the nature of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something".
But anyway
@StairC
Black doesn't care a lot whole for science, but black cares about the power of knowledge. It works to build a theme over multiple colours, which is preferable to make the decks more interesting mechanically and helps teach new players more about the game. Using green or red would also work, but black is no different, unless there is concern over portraying science overly negatively in that black is always associated with evil (not to say that it is inherently so).
Yep, let's go with the icons of science vs. the icons of religious faith. Speed vs. Cunning didn't explore all possible notions of speed or all possible definitions of cunning. We can afford to focus on the most expected experiences within fantasy tropes. When you mention Faith to a fantasy gamer, they tend to think more in terms of religion than zen-harmony.
To be fair, Speed v Cunning was not my favorite Duel Deck
How attached are you to mono color decks? It would definitely help shrink our mechanics list, but I might be wary of retreading Elspeth vs Tezzeret. (Also to keep the "Faith" deck distinct from "Divine")
Potential themes for the decks: Faith
- Angels (as a tribe)
- Life gain
- Enchantments
- Devotion
Science
- Artifacts
- Spell heavy
- ...mill? (winning through superior intellect?)
Potential "returning" mechanics: Faith
- Devotion (could be great in a mono colored deck)
- Bestow (sort of tied to Theros, but definitely captures a gift-from-the-gods)
- Miracle (can it be redeemed?)
- Exalted
Science
- Spell Mastery (good flavor, but could get boring in a deck literally designed around it)
- For an artifact theme: Modular, Metalcraft, Living Weapon
- For a spell theme: Entwine, Flashback, Replicate, Fuse
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I'm not attached to the mono color overly. I'd be happy to see a combination approach to the decks if the concepts and mechanics deliver good gameplay. On a core conceptual level, which is what we've been talking about, I don't think they need to be monocolor, but if the izzet or simic approach to science delivers more fun - I'm all for it.
Ultimately the end result shouldn't jar the audience. The end results should fit with the pop culture fantasy perceptions of faith and science.
One way we can use mechanic to show the difference between science and religion/faith is by tapping into the certainty/uncertainty difference, where faith/religion holds certainty and science doesn't.
Other ways are things like artifacts for science vs creatures for faith, technology vs community focus.
Some mechanics ideas:
For science
-Augment (As you cast this spell, you may tap two untapped artifacts you control. When you do, copy it and you may choose a new target for the copy.) Conspire for artifacts
-Galvanise (Your artifacts can help cast this spell. Each artifact you tap while casting this spell pays for ) Convoke for artifacts
-Augment (As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap two untapped artifacts you control.) (effect if you do) Kicker/exploit style artifact mechanic
-Experiment- (+ETB on creatures) Reveal the top card of your library, if it's [type], (effect). Captures the uncertainty of science and the exploration and discovery process, you can even use research flavoured cards that filter your library to inform your experiment.
For faith/religion
-Devout [n?} (Whenever you draw a creature card, you may reveal it. If you do and this creature isn't devout, put a +1/+1 counter ([n] +1/+1 counters?) on this creature and it becomes devout.) Represents the concept of a "sign from above" event and subsequent faith.
-Pray- (+ETB on creatures) Reveal the top card of your library, if it's [type], (effect). Obviously, this is the same as experiment, as it can be flavoured either way.
-Unified (Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn) Suggested to me by user Manite for my Fate of Alara set, it also fits well here.
I talked to Doombringer a bit about iterate's flavor. Take a look at a slight tweak.
Dedicated Researcher - U
Creature - Human Wizard
Iterate 1U (Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature. This costs1 more to activate for each +1/+1 on it.) Breakthrough - Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on CARDNAME, if it has three or more +1/+1 counters on it, draw a card.
1/1
I don't think we should do both iterate and breakthrough. One new mechanic per deck is much cleaner and simpler than doing multiple fighting for space. An extra returning mechanic or two can fill in the background, not interfering with the 'new things being highlighted' space while still allowing mechanical themes to be reinforced.
faith mechanic Wisdom - EFFECT for each card in your hand.
science mechanic Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, EFFECT.
or Eureka - Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, EFFECT.
@StairC.
The fact that that isn't obvious is a problem, or a concern at least. Adding the extra term "Breakthrough" just for flavour doesn't seem worth it considering how little it actually adds (much of the flavour of breakthrough is already there).
I was specifically answering concerns about having multiple mechanics from a complexity space, where Breakthrough wouldn't actually be more complex - but rather unify the mechanics that would already be on iterate cards under a single flavor aspect. It arguably reduces complexity, similar to having the line of convoke "your creatures can help you cast this spell". Do you have a non-complexity concern? I'm not entirely clear on your objection.
It mostly just seems frivolous, ability words don't reduce complexity by much. If breakthrough appears mostly, if not entirely, on cards that already have a named mechanic, then what value does the extra name add? It's aesthetically strange and displeasing to have two clearly different mechanic on an individual card level be intricately liked mechanics at a set level. Considering also that this only a duel deck, we don't need to highlight the effect, that's already mostly done for us by the preconstructed nature of the cardset.
We decided to talk about the selection process for the winning mechanics and some of the others we strongly consided for a Remaking Magic episode. Tune in for Episode 31 for the kickoff to stage 3.
We decided to talk about the selection process for the winning mechanics and some of the others we strongly consided for a Remaking Magic episode. Tune in for Episode 31 for the kickoff to stage 3.
Besides, Robots vs. Angels sounds fun.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
I get green and faith, I already accepted that. My comment was more to do with the definition of natural, in that has different meanings which vary in actual relevance. As far as I am concerned, natural isn't a useful term because the meanings of natural as "existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind" is different from natural as in "relating to earthly human or physical nature as distinct from the spiritual or supernatural realm" (a Christian theology definition, take note) or natural as in "in accordance with the nature of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something".
But anyway
@StairC
Black doesn't care a lot whole for science, but black cares about the power of knowledge. It works to build a theme over multiple colours, which is preferable to make the decks more interesting mechanically and helps teach new players more about the game. Using green or red would also work, but black is no different, unless there is concern over portraying science overly negatively in that black is always associated with evil (not to say that it is inherently so).
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
How attached are you to mono color decks? It would definitely help shrink our mechanics list, but I might be wary of retreading Elspeth vs Tezzeret. (Also to keep the "Faith" deck distinct from "Divine")
Potential themes for the decks:
Faith
- Angels (as a tribe)
- Life gain
- Enchantments
- Devotion
Science
- Artifacts
- Spell heavy
- ...mill? (winning through superior intellect?)
Potential "returning" mechanics:
Faith
- Devotion (could be great in a mono colored deck)
- Bestow (sort of tied to Theros, but definitely captures a gift-from-the-gods)
- Miracle (can it be redeemed?)
- Exalted
Science
- Spell Mastery (good flavor, but could get boring in a deck literally designed around it)
- For an artifact theme: Modular, Metalcraft, Living Weapon
- For a spell theme: Entwine, Flashback, Replicate, Fuse
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Ultimately the end result shouldn't jar the audience. The end results should fit with the pop culture fantasy perceptions of faith and science.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Other ways are things like artifacts for science vs creatures for faith, technology vs community focus.
Some mechanics ideas:
For science
-Augment (As you cast this spell, you may tap two untapped artifacts you control. When you do, copy it and you may choose a new target for the copy.) Conspire for artifacts
-Galvanise (Your artifacts can help cast this spell. Each artifact you tap while casting this spell pays for ) Convoke for artifacts
-Augment (As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may tap two untapped artifacts you control.) (effect if you do) Kicker/exploit style artifact mechanic
-Experiment- (+ETB on creatures) Reveal the top card of your library, if it's [type], (effect). Captures the uncertainty of science and the exploration and discovery process, you can even use research flavoured cards that filter your library to inform your experiment.
For faith/religion
-Devout [n?} (Whenever you draw a creature card, you may reveal it. If you do and this creature isn't devout, put a +1/+1 counter ([n] +1/+1 counters?) on this creature and it becomes devout.) Represents the concept of a "sign from above" event and subsequent faith.
-Pray- (+ETB on creatures) Reveal the top card of your library, if it's [type], (effect). Obviously, this is the same as experiment, as it can be flavoured either way.
-Unified (Whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, this creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn) Suggested to me by user Manite for my Fate of Alara set, it also fits well here.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Dedicated Researcher - U
Creature - Human Wizard
Iterate 1U (Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature. This costs1 more to activate for each +1/+1 on it.)
Breakthrough - Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on CARDNAME, if it has three or more +1/+1 counters on it, draw a card.
1/1
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Wisdom - EFFECT for each card in your hand.
science mechanic
Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, EFFECT.
or
Eureka - Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, EFFECT.
The fact that that isn't obvious is a problem, or a concern at least. Adding the extra term "Breakthrough" just for flavour doesn't seem worth it considering how little it actually adds (much of the flavour of breakthrough is already there).
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
any idea when?
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
http://www.magicmultiverse.net/cardsets/908
Check out the mechanics and feel free to add early suggestions
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/621628-podcast-re-making-magic-episode-31-duel-deck
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane