I don't know about . It works fine to represent faith associated groups, but it's poor at representing the pure concept. It doesn't seem like the path we want to go down for a labelled, strongly thematic deck to do less clear representations and also potentially put something in a bad light unnecessarily. I don't think it's a good idea to portray either as clearly villanous and the other as clearly heroic. It just seems more interesting and realistic to have it be reasonably grey in that sense, not that there can't be a more antagonistic one, but that it shouldn't be very obvious.
I don't know about . It works fine to represent faith associated groups, but it's poor at representing the pure concept.
Agreed. I also think the same is true for science. Monoblue far better represents pure science.
Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, EFFECT.
Lab Apprentice (Common) 2U
Creature - Human
2/2 Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, you may tap or untap target permanent.
Black doesn't have to be villainous! I think it's a good idea to include two colors in one way or another to provide a more diverse portrayal of the topic. Thinking about how you might center 'faith' mechanics in black...
Tithe (At the beginning of your upkeep, pay 1 life or this loses tithe.) — Your community expects you to contribute some wealth, depicted as your controller's life. If you don't, you become a more peripheral part of the community. This mechanic could be scalar. Creatures with tithe have 'whenever you tithe' triggers generally.
Fulminating Theologian1BB
Creature — Human Cleric
Tithe
Whenever you tithe to Fulminating Theologian, reveal a card from the top of your library and put it into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.
2/3
Saint of the Opened WatersW
Creature — Cat Cleric
Tithe
Whenever you tithe to Saint of the Opened Waters, it gains islandwalk until end of turn.
2/1
Or you could talk about how organized religions always seem to have a singular figure at the head.
Cardinal (When this enters the battlefield, it becomes cardinal and other permanents you control are no longer cardinal.)
Hopeful Bishop2WW
Creature — Vampire Cleric
Cardinal
As long as Hopeful Bishop is cardinal, Human and non-Human* creatures you control get +1/+1.
2/2
Prelate of Yesterdays1WB
Creature — Spirit Cleric
Cardinal, flying
As long as Prelate of Yesterdays is cardinal, if you would draw a card, you may instead return a creature card with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
3/1
Crown of Triple Worlds3
Artifact — Equipment
Cardinal
As long as Crown of Triple Worlds is cardinal, equipped creature is cardinal.
Equipped creature gets +1/+3 and has vigilance.
Equip 2
I didn't mean to imply that I think that the color black in MTG inherently represents villainy or evil, just that as far as tropes go, monowhite is the obvious color to showcase a stereotypical "good and pure faith" theme in Magic. As far as I can tell, every existing card in Magic that has the word "faith" as part of its name is monowhite - except for FaithLESS Looting.
I wonder if Science could be represented by blue and red. I know we have the Izzet League from Ravnica, but blue represents intellect, and red the chances involved in experimentation. Further, they can both interact well with artifacts if we go the technological science route, as seen with Kaladesh.
Could we introduce the concept of chance into Science, we "experiment"?
Earlier in the thread, Piar introduced Hypothesis: Hypothesis (When you cast this spell guess land or nonland then reveal the top card of your library. If you guessed right, copy this spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.)
I wonder if we can develop this a bit. We can use red for chance (the experiment part--with randomnization and coin flips even?) and blue for the intellect part (deck manipulation of "variables" to make sure the experiment works).
Goblin Lab Technician
R
1/1
Creature--Goblin
Experiment--R: Name a card type, then reveal the top card of your library. If the revealed card is of the chosen type, Goblin Lab Technician deals one damage to target creature or player. Use this ability only once each turn.
Goblin Genius
1RR
2/2
Creature--Goblin
Experiment--1RR: Name a card, then reveal the top card of your library. If the revealed card is the named card, Goblin Genius deals five damage to target creature or player. Use this ability only once each turn.
Goblin Beaker-Breaker
1R
2/1
Whenever you activate an experiment, sacrifice Goblin Beaker-Breaker and you may deal two damage to target creature.
Experimental Risk-Taker
2R
1/2
Creature--Human
Experiment--R: Flip a coin. If heads, Experimental Risk-Taker gets +1/+0 until end of turn. If tails, Experimental Risk-Taker deals one damage to itself.
Lab Notebook
2
Artifact
T: If you flipped a coin as part of a spell or ability, you may flip that coin again instead.
Blue cards, then, could serve more of a scry purpose perhaps.
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
How about a theme that uses time in turns as a mechanic to create innovations? It could be an interesting way to implement emblems that are not planeswalker based. And innovations do not go away when the scientist who discovers them does....
Environmental Scientist
At the beginning of your upkeep put a research counter on ~.
When you have 4 research counters on ~ put an emblem that says lands you control produce mana of any color. Dr. Bronner is interested in the transitions between environments
Grad Student
If you would put a research counter on a creature you control instead put two. Ugh. How am I supposed to finish my proposal when all I do is the professor's experiments.
A main problem with an implementation of this sort is the number of required emblems must restrict it to rares probably.
I am also not going to bother trying to balance the size and cost of these creatures.
Mountaintop Laboratory - 1
Artifact 2: Put a research counter on ~. If there are 5 or more research counters on ~, destroy it and put a 9/9 blue mutant token onto the battlefield.
Meant to post this earlier, but clicking buttons are hard.
Faith RW (B?)Go Wide:
I like Miracle and Devotion as possible returning mechanics for Faith. I would also suggest another mechanic
Pray - <cost>:<effect> (Tap this creature and any number of untapped creatures you control. For each creature tapped this way, <effect>)
----
Peace-Speaker ClericW
Creature - Human Cleric (Common)
Pray - W: Gain 1 life.
0/2
Warmonger Priest2R
Creature - Orc Cleric Warrior (Uncommon)
Pray - 1R: Tapped creatures you control gain +1/+0 until end of turn.
3/2
--------------
Science: URG Go Big
For returning mechanics, Anything close to Simic or Izzet-y would make sense
I was actually going to suggest my latest iteration on Access the Machine, called Energize, where it has both targeted permanents as well as untargeted mass effects
Pulsework Aeronaut2U
Creature - Human Artificer
2UU: Energize target creature until end of turn
Energized creatures you control have flying
2/3
----
However, Energize might not play well with the strategy of building bigger monsters. I'm sure there are better mechanics that exist, but I think we need to design the two decks to play very differently.
Sorry if I missed this in the intro, but how many mechanics are we looking at here? Will these decks feature all new mechanics or also include some old ones? (Devotion, for instance, immediately comes for mind for Faith).
For colors, it seems like we need to figure out the core of our conflict. I see this battle manifesting in two major ways: "Science vs. Religion" or "Logic vs. Faith".
Logic vs Faith is basically the center of the UG conflict. If the goal is to capture this specific battle, then these two colors seem like no-brainers (in addition to potential support colors).
There are plenty of ways you can take it. If you had to pick two mono colors (or even just the two main colors), Science is deeply rooted in blue, while "Faith" can be either Green or White, depending on if you mean belief or organized religion.
@DJK: Your argument is very hard to swallow when Green is cited as the #1 color of faith on numerous occasions. MaRo has said numerous times that Religion is Green and White: Green for the belief in a higher power and White for the structure of moral laws.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
@MOON-E
Faith is not green. Faith is the absolute belief in something, especially in a higher power, a divine figure, a god or gods. This doesn't fit with green's naturalistic and practical worldview. Green is only interested in the world as it can see it, white is the colour most prone to believing in higher powers and this difference is a white/green conflict of practicality and instinct vs planning and spirituality. Green is actually quite suitable with science, it's issue is the implemetation of science disrupting the natural world, as long as science is practical and not used for machinery and such, green is all for it.
To be clear, I believe DJK is saying that green is all for the discovery of the natural world's nature and laws, just not the application of those discoveries. In short, green likes scientists. It doesn't like engineers. However, I'm pretty sure the "science" deck will have to involve engineering.
@StairC.
Yes, but also that faith probably shouldn't have green in it. It could to represent the community of it, but or is more representative of the concept. Using is the same as using , they can fit the practice, but they don't suit the concept, they are too practically minded to be interested in higher powers (unless you count "the natural order" as a higher power).
When it comes to religion, White more brings the morality and the rules while Green more brings the faith. Faith vs science is a Green/Blue conflict not a White/Blue one.
I'm sorry, but I simply have no idea what you're talking about.
Your definition of faith is incredibly narrow and specific to arrive at the conclusion that Green doesn't have it. Faith does not just mean religion, it can also just mean belief or trust in anything (especially that which you can't directly observe). This is all really baffling to me because faith is one of green's fundamental tenants. Green doesn't need a reason to believe, it just does. That's faith, be it in the natural order or in a higher power.
Plus for green, gods often are part of the natural order. Perhaps you see god as something different due to your own religious views, but to a religious person their god created the universe. He/She/It/They are the center of all creation. They are the natural order. Seeing faith in a higher power to be separate from faith in "the real world" is a concept only someone without faith really possesses. At very least, Green believes in destiny. That alone is enough to be considered "faith" to me. Destiny is not practical or based in the real world or substantive at all, yet it's one of Green's major philosophies.
I can see how green can also be connected to science, but arguing that it has no connection to faith is like trying to argue Blue doesn't believe in science because "anyone can become anything if they try hard enough, therefore nothing is impossible, so scientific evidence is pointless." I mean no disrespect, but your statements about green simply contradict everything I've grown to understand about the color.
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
The reason I brought the topic up is that finding colors (or at least core colors) can help us find mechanics. For instance, I imagine the WB Corrupt Church vs the GU Bio-engineers will play in significantly different space than the WG Monks vs the UB Mad Scientists.
For the main colors, Blue makes sense for science, while Faith could either be White or Green, depending on the type of conflict we're looking to portray. That might help us narrow our mechanic search a bit.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
@MOON-E.
I guess I am misunderstanding the colour a bit. But I would note that faith IS strongly associated with religion. It is typically defined to include that specific meaning (e.g. "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof") so while faith doesn't necessarily involve supernaturalism, it invokes it. God isn't natural because it is supernatural, it's a force outside our understanding and observable reality, it's natural if you accept it, but from a neutral standpoint (relevant to whether you believe in it in the first point) it's not. The word "natural" has issues in being relevant and applicable anyway, so I don't think it's an important distinction to make here, the point I was making is why Green would be very interested in higher powers? Not that green is opposed to belief in a god, but that it's not an instinctive belief, there is no practical observation that leads to religion without theoretical thinking. So while faith may be green, religion isn't very green, but I guess it fits because green still isn't anti-religion and it is pro-faith.
-
Anyway, what colour combinations are we going to settle on, and what sort of decks?
The consensus appears to be
Faith- maybe with or . Some sort of aggressive creature deck, revealing cards for value theme based on prayer.
Science- maybe with or . Artifacts, library and/or graveyard matters, based on flavour of research, experimentation and technology.
Something we also should decide is whether this should be science vs religion, or logic vs faith. It seems a little weird for one to be of a more fundamental concept (faith, which is just absolute belief) than the other which is more complex (science, which is a multilayered principle of understanding). Changing to religion vs science puts both a more equal level of conceptual complexity, same as logic vs faith.
I feel like it's not super productive to be arguing color philosophy at this stage of the game. We can easily propose mechanics that capture one flavor or another and allow the color tendencies of the mechanics guide the color choices of the decks.
Here's a couple more off the cuff proposals!
For science:
Upgrade (Other permanents you control with a lower converted mana cost and exactly the same {permanent type} types as this one are copies of it.)
Overdrive X(X: Until end of turn, whenever you activate another ability of this permanent, copy that ability. At the beginning of the next end step, sacrifice it.)
Popup (At the beginning of your upkeep, choose a random permanent with popup you control. Spells that could target that permanent must target it.)
For faith:
Afterlife (Exile this card from your graveyard: Until end of turn, you may activate its abilities.)
Judgement (When this creature dies, if it didn't deal damage this turn, exile it.) - and then it can do whatever it likes to do from 'in heaven'
This mechanic is probably terrible but I thought I may as well throw it out here
Linger (When this creature dies, you may sacrifice a spirit to return it to the battlefield. Otherwise put a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.)
@willows.
Productive? We are making sets of cards entirely for our own interest, it's not exactly productive. This is a just a forum, if people want to talk about, they can and will. Why not, unless they are just being annoying?
Dictionary.com defines Faith as:
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing:
2.
belief that is not based on proof:
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
5.
a system of religious belief:
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.:
The idiom "take on faith" is defined as:
"to accept or believe something on the basis of little or no evidence"
Of the definitions of Faith, only 2 mention a higher power. Faith is about accepting something as it is, without attempt to understand or affect change. Religion is the dogmatic belief in a structured higher order. Religion and Faith are separate, subtly distinct concepts. Green has Faith. Green believes that the answers to all of life's questions exist intrinsically within you, and not in the external world. Green is about wisdom, not knowledge. Green is not particularly religious, because religion is a structured endeavor. Green appreciates structure, but it also appreciates chaos. Green believes that systems, like nature, organize themselves, and imposing order is folly.
Yes green suits faith, but the implications and associations with religion are enough to make it questionable about whether it's a very good idea. It's not all that important of a consideration, and I think going with religion vs science or logic vs faith is more appropriate anyway.
-Faith is believing something absolutely (or very close to it), typically because you believe it's very important. Logic is about examining the reasoning and say you should be more hesitant, because there could be another better answer.
-Religion mostly uses faith to support it's beliefs, whereas science mostly uses logic.
It seems to me that it makes more sense to contrast these ideas together in this manner.
I'm open to all mechanical suggestions, but I'm going to end up choosing white as one of the colors for Faith - perhaps the only color. You need to meet player expectations, and anyone seeing Science vs. Faith would be shocked to not see some angels on the faith side of things.
I also don't foresee using black in the science deck. Black doesn't have any absolute affiliation with science, it just recognizes the power of knowledge. I also don't assosciate most of black's tools with science. Zombies, Demons, dark pacts and endless ambition... Scientists can be black but I don't see black being core to science at all.
I'm guessing that the decks will end up being Blue v White. It's possible that science could be blue/red or blue/green, while white could be white/green or white/red. It might also be philosophically interesting to explore both decks sharing one of their two colors, like if science was blue/green and faith was white/green.
But, ultimately, we have to hit the core expectations. Blue makes sciency stuff, probably having to do with arifact creatures. White has lots of religious icons. While we could represent a more vague concept of faith like trust, I don't see that as powerful a concept to pursue. And if we're going with a religious style, I think angels and clerics fit better than druids and monks - due to the literature tropes involved in pop culture fantasy faith.
EDIT - Agree with DJK on the most effective focus for the duel decks.
God isn't natural because it is supernatural, it's a force outside our understanding and observable reality, it's natural if you accept it, but from a neutral standpoint (relevant to whether you believe in it in the first point) it's not.
This is simply a very non-green way of looking at things. The idea that you should be able to observe and understand everything is blue, not green. Green does not let a strong creature prey on a weak creature because it has an intricate knowledge of how forest ecosystems work, it does so because that's the way things are and (according to Green) the way they should be. While there is a tangible, logical reason for this phenomenon, that's not what Green is concerned with. Green's whole mantra of "harmony through acceptance" is all about accepting your role in the world, even if you don't understand it (especially if you don't understand it).
You don't really need to take my word for it though (or even MaRo's), because Green has had a major faith component in most sets in recent memory. In KTK, Green worshiped its ancestors with Abzan and Temur. In Theros... ok well that one's a freebie. In Ravnica, Green worshiped a strange collected consciousness hive mind thing with the Selesnya. In Innistrad, Green worshiped Avacyn (and its ancestors). In Zendikar Green worshiped the land itself, and in Alara it worshiped giant beasts. Importantly, Green's worship goes beyond simply "I worship Avacyn because I know she exists". Flavorwise, Green assigns special importance and spiritual meaning to things beyond their tangible magic properties. The Behemoths of Naya were considered gods even though (as far as we know) they really were just wild beasts. Yes, Green likes to leave all the scripture and churches stuff to White, but it has always had a strong spiritual component.
Faith is a huge part of Green's identity, but I agree that institutional religion is not. To reiterate though, faith vs science is literally a GU conflict. It feels disingenuous to say that science is at odds with religion as an institution, when really the conflict is one of beliefs. But as you said, we just need to figure out what we're trying to capture here. This duel deck could land anywhere from "deep exploration of logic and faith as opposed forces through a card game" to "giant robots vs fire angels" (personally I think both sound fun).
I would personally turn this question over to Stairc (since I think we're lacking a bit of direction). How do you suggest we try to narrow our mechanic search parameters?
EDIT: NVM, he preemptively answered my question
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
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Agreed. I also think the same is true for science. Monoblue far better represents pure science.
Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, EFFECT.
Lab Apprentice (Common)
2U
Creature - Human
2/2
Eureka - Whenever an artifact enters the battlefield under your control, you may tap or untap target permanent.
Tithe (At the beginning of your upkeep, pay 1 life or this loses tithe.) — Your community expects you to contribute some wealth, depicted as your controller's life. If you don't, you become a more peripheral part of the community. This mechanic could be scalar. Creatures with tithe have 'whenever you tithe' triggers generally.
Fulminating Theologian 1BB
Creature — Human Cleric
Tithe
Whenever you tithe to Fulminating Theologian, reveal a card from the top of your library and put it into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.
2/3
Saint of the Opened Waters W
Creature — Cat Cleric
Tithe
Whenever you tithe to Saint of the Opened Waters, it gains islandwalk until end of turn.
2/1
Or you could talk about how organized religions always seem to have a singular figure at the head.
Cardinal (When this enters the battlefield, it becomes cardinal and other permanents you control are no longer cardinal.)
Hopeful Bishop 2WW
Creature — Vampire Cleric
Cardinal
As long as Hopeful Bishop is cardinal, Human and non-Human* creatures you control get +1/+1.
2/2
Prelate of Yesterdays 1WB
Creature — Spirit Cleric
Cardinal, flying
As long as Prelate of Yesterdays is cardinal, if you would draw a card, you may instead return a creature card with converted mana cost 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield.
3/1
Crown of Triple Worlds 3
Artifact — Equipment
Cardinal
As long as Crown of Triple Worlds is cardinal, equipped creature is cardinal.
Equipped creature gets +1/+3 and has vigilance.
Equip 2
*: yes it's totally non-functional trinket text
I didn't mean to imply that I think that the color black in MTG inherently represents villainy or evil, just that as far as tropes go, monowhite is the obvious color to showcase a stereotypical "good and pure faith" theme in Magic. As far as I can tell, every existing card in Magic that has the word "faith" as part of its name is monowhite - except for FaithLESS Looting.
Could we introduce the concept of chance into Science, we "experiment"?
Earlier in the thread, Piar introduced Hypothesis: Hypothesis (When you cast this spell guess land or nonland then reveal the top card of your library. If you guessed right, copy this spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.)
I wonder if we can develop this a bit. We can use red for chance (the experiment part--with randomnization and coin flips even?) and blue for the intellect part (deck manipulation of "variables" to make sure the experiment works).
Goblin Lab Technician
R
1/1
Creature--Goblin
Experiment--R: Name a card type, then reveal the top card of your library. If the revealed card is of the chosen type, Goblin Lab Technician deals one damage to target creature or player. Use this ability only once each turn.
Goblin Genius
1RR
2/2
Creature--Goblin
Experiment--1RR: Name a card, then reveal the top card of your library. If the revealed card is the named card, Goblin Genius deals five damage to target creature or player. Use this ability only once each turn.
Goblin Beaker-Breaker
1R
2/1
Whenever you activate an experiment, sacrifice Goblin Beaker-Breaker and you may deal two damage to target creature.
Experimental Risk-Taker
2R
1/2
Creature--Human
Experiment--R: Flip a coin. If heads, Experimental Risk-Taker gets +1/+0 until end of turn. If tails, Experimental Risk-Taker deals one damage to itself.
Lab Notebook
2
Artifact
T: If you flipped a coin as part of a spell or ability, you may flip that coin again instead.
Blue cards, then, could serve more of a scry purpose perhaps.
Environmental Scientist
At the beginning of your upkeep put a research counter on ~.
When you have 4 research counters on ~ put an emblem that says lands you control produce mana of any color.
Dr. Bronner is interested in the transitions between environments
Grad Student
If you would put a research counter on a creature you control instead put two.
Ugh. How am I supposed to finish my proposal when all I do is the professor's experiments.
A main problem with an implementation of this sort is the number of required emblems must restrict it to rares probably.
I am also not going to bother trying to balance the size and cost of these creatures.
Artifact
2: Put a research counter on ~. If there are 5 or more research counters on ~, destroy it and put a 9/9 blue mutant token onto the battlefield.
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Faith RW (B?)Go Wide:
I like Miracle and Devotion as possible returning mechanics for Faith. I would also suggest another mechanic
Pray - <cost>:<effect> (Tap this creature and any number of untapped creatures you control. For each creature tapped this way, <effect>)
----
Peace-Speaker Cleric W
Creature - Human Cleric (Common)
Pray - W: Gain 1 life.
0/2
Warmonger Priest 2R
Creature - Orc Cleric Warrior (Uncommon)
Pray - 1R: Tapped creatures you control gain +1/+0 until end of turn.
3/2
--------------
Science: URG Go Big
For returning mechanics, Anything close to Simic or Izzet-y would make sense
I was actually going to suggest my latest iteration on Access the Machine, called Energize, where it has both targeted permanents as well as untargeted mass effects
Pulsework Aeronaut 2U
Creature - Human Artificer
2UU: Energize target creature until end of turn
Energized creatures you control have flying
2/3
----
However, Energize might not play well with the strategy of building bigger monsters. I'm sure there are better mechanics that exist, but I think we need to design the two decks to play very differently.
For colors, it seems like we need to figure out the core of our conflict. I see this battle manifesting in two major ways: "Science vs. Religion" or "Logic vs. Faith".
Logic vs Faith is basically the center of the UG conflict. If the goal is to capture this specific battle, then these two colors seem like no-brainers (in addition to potential support colors).
Science vs. Religion is a lot more open, because either of these things can take on different meanings depending on the environment (unlike Logic and Faith which are sort of higher, abstract concepts). Science is usually blue, but can be dark and ruthless, wild and experimental, or tied closely to the natural world. Organized Religion is usually white, but can be fanatic or crusading, peaceful or community driven, or sinister and exploitative.
There are plenty of ways you can take it. If you had to pick two mono colors (or even just the two main colors), Science is deeply rooted in blue, while "Faith" can be either Green or White, depending on if you mean belief or organized religion.
@DJK: Your argument is very hard to swallow when Green is cited as the #1 color of faith on numerous occasions. MaRo has said numerous times that Religion is Green and White: Green for the belief in a higher power and White for the structure of moral laws.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Faith is not green. Faith is the absolute belief in something, especially in a higher power, a divine figure, a god or gods. This doesn't fit with green's naturalistic and practical worldview. Green is only interested in the world as it can see it, white is the colour most prone to believing in higher powers and this difference is a white/green conflict of practicality and instinct vs planning and spirituality. Green is actually quite suitable with science, it's issue is the implemetation of science disrupting the natural world, as long as science is practical and not used for machinery and such, green is all for it.
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Yes, but also that faith probably shouldn't have green in it. It could to represent the community of it, but or is more representative of the concept. Using is the same as using , they can fit the practice, but they don't suit the concept, they are too practically minded to be interested in higher powers (unless you count "the natural order" as a higher power).
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#Defundthepolice
Your definition of faith is incredibly narrow and specific to arrive at the conclusion that Green doesn't have it. Faith does not just mean religion, it can also just mean belief or trust in anything (especially that which you can't directly observe). This is all really baffling to me because faith is one of green's fundamental tenants. Green doesn't need a reason to believe, it just does. That's faith, be it in the natural order or in a higher power.
Plus for green, gods often are part of the natural order. Perhaps you see god as something different due to your own religious views, but to a religious person their god created the universe. He/She/It/They are the center of all creation. They are the natural order. Seeing faith in a higher power to be separate from faith in "the real world" is a concept only someone without faith really possesses. At very least, Green believes in destiny. That alone is enough to be considered "faith" to me. Destiny is not practical or based in the real world or substantive at all, yet it's one of Green's major philosophies.
I can see how green can also be connected to science, but arguing that it has no connection to faith is like trying to argue Blue doesn't believe in science because "anyone can become anything if they try hard enough, therefore nothing is impossible, so scientific evidence is pointless." I mean no disrespect, but your statements about green simply contradict everything I've grown to understand about the color.
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For the main colors, Blue makes sense for science, while Faith could either be White or Green, depending on the type of conflict we're looking to portray. That might help us narrow our mechanic search a bit.
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Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
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I guess I am misunderstanding the colour a bit. But I would note that faith IS strongly associated with religion. It is typically defined to include that specific meaning (e.g. "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof") so while faith doesn't necessarily involve supernaturalism, it invokes it. God isn't natural because it is supernatural, it's a force outside our understanding and observable reality, it's natural if you accept it, but from a neutral standpoint (relevant to whether you believe in it in the first point) it's not. The word "natural" has issues in being relevant and applicable anyway, so I don't think it's an important distinction to make here, the point I was making is why Green would be very interested in higher powers? Not that green is opposed to belief in a god, but that it's not an instinctive belief, there is no practical observation that leads to religion without theoretical thinking. So while faith may be green, religion isn't very green, but I guess it fits because green still isn't anti-religion and it is pro-faith.
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Anyway, what colour combinations are we going to settle on, and what sort of decks?
The consensus appears to be
Faith- maybe with or . Some sort of aggressive creature deck, revealing cards for value theme based on prayer.
Science- maybe with or . Artifacts, library and/or graveyard matters, based on flavour of research, experimentation and technology.
Something we also should decide is whether this should be science vs religion, or logic vs faith. It seems a little weird for one to be of a more fundamental concept (faith, which is just absolute belief) than the other which is more complex (science, which is a multilayered principle of understanding). Changing to religion vs science puts both a more equal level of conceptual complexity, same as logic vs faith.
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#Defundthepolice
Here's a couple more off the cuff proposals!
For science:
Upgrade (Other permanents you control with a lower converted mana cost and exactly the same {permanent type} types as this one are copies of it.)
Overdrive X (X: Until end of turn, whenever you activate another ability of this permanent, copy that ability. At the beginning of the next end step, sacrifice it.)
Popup (At the beginning of your upkeep, choose a random permanent with popup you control. Spells that could target that permanent must target it.)
For faith:
Afterlife (Exile this card from your graveyard: Until end of turn, you may activate its abilities.)
Judgement (When this creature dies, if it didn't deal damage this turn, exile it.) - and then it can do whatever it likes to do from 'in heaven'
Linger (When this creature dies, you may sacrifice a spirit to return it to the battlefield. Otherwise put a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.)
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Productive? We are making sets of cards entirely for our own interest, it's not exactly productive. This is a just a forum, if people want to talk about, they can and will. Why not, unless they are just being annoying?
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing:
2.
belief that is not based on proof:
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:
5.
a system of religious belief:
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.:
The idiom "take on faith" is defined as:
"to accept or believe something on the basis of little or no evidence"
Of the definitions of Faith, only 2 mention a higher power. Faith is about accepting something as it is, without attempt to understand or affect change. Religion is the dogmatic belief in a structured higher order. Religion and Faith are separate, subtly distinct concepts. Green has Faith. Green believes that the answers to all of life's questions exist intrinsically within you, and not in the external world. Green is about wisdom, not knowledge. Green is not particularly religious, because religion is a structured endeavor. Green appreciates structure, but it also appreciates chaos. Green believes that systems, like nature, organize themselves, and imposing order is folly.
http://lefowens.blogspot.com/
-Faith is believing something absolutely (or very close to it), typically because you believe it's very important. Logic is about examining the reasoning and say you should be more hesitant, because there could be another better answer.
-Religion mostly uses faith to support it's beliefs, whereas science mostly uses logic.
It seems to me that it makes more sense to contrast these ideas together in this manner.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I also don't foresee using black in the science deck. Black doesn't have any absolute affiliation with science, it just recognizes the power of knowledge. I also don't assosciate most of black's tools with science. Zombies, Demons, dark pacts and endless ambition... Scientists can be black but I don't see black being core to science at all.
I'm guessing that the decks will end up being Blue v White. It's possible that science could be blue/red or blue/green, while white could be white/green or white/red. It might also be philosophically interesting to explore both decks sharing one of their two colors, like if science was blue/green and faith was white/green.
But, ultimately, we have to hit the core expectations. Blue makes sciency stuff, probably having to do with arifact creatures. White has lots of religious icons. While we could represent a more vague concept of faith like trust, I don't see that as powerful a concept to pursue. And if we're going with a religious style, I think angels and clerics fit better than druids and monks - due to the literature tropes involved in pop culture fantasy faith.
EDIT - Agree with DJK on the most effective focus for the duel decks.
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This is simply a very non-green way of looking at things. The idea that you should be able to observe and understand everything is blue, not green. Green does not let a strong creature prey on a weak creature because it has an intricate knowledge of how forest ecosystems work, it does so because that's the way things are and (according to Green) the way they should be. While there is a tangible, logical reason for this phenomenon, that's not what Green is concerned with. Green's whole mantra of "harmony through acceptance" is all about accepting your role in the world, even if you don't understand it (especially if you don't understand it).
You don't really need to take my word for it though (or even MaRo's), because Green has had a major faith component in most sets in recent memory. In KTK, Green worshiped its ancestors with Abzan and Temur. In Theros... ok well that one's a freebie. In Ravnica, Green worshiped a strange collected consciousness hive mind thing with the Selesnya. In Innistrad, Green worshiped Avacyn (and its ancestors). In Zendikar Green worshiped the land itself, and in Alara it worshiped giant beasts. Importantly, Green's worship goes beyond simply "I worship Avacyn because I know she exists". Flavorwise, Green assigns special importance and spiritual meaning to things beyond their tangible magic properties. The Behemoths of Naya were considered gods even though (as far as we know) they really were just wild beasts. Yes, Green likes to leave all the scripture and churches stuff to White, but it has always had a strong spiritual component.
Faith is a huge part of Green's identity, but I agree that institutional religion is not. To reiterate though, faith vs science is literally a GU conflict. It feels disingenuous to say that science is at odds with religion as an institution, when really the conflict is one of beliefs. But as you said, we just need to figure out what we're trying to capture here. This duel deck could land anywhere from "deep exploration of logic and faith as opposed forces through a card game" to "giant robots vs fire angels" (personally I think both sound fun).
I would personally turn this question over to Stairc (since I think we're lacking a bit of direction). How do you suggest we try to narrow our mechanic search parameters?
EDIT: NVM, he preemptively answered my question
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing