Land tokens don't work in EDH and in Eternal formats (bounce and flicker effects are just too good), which is why I went with Dunes as Basic Lands. In general I think it's much better when tokens are replaced with actual cards, due to tokens uniquely non-interactive nature (they only interact with the battlefield, as they can't exist in other zones). The mechanic is nearly functionally identical no matter which way you phrase it, so I don't think confusion is a valid argument for or against the Dune or land token version of the mechanic. Domain as I've said numerous times before isn't a concern. Manifest messed with double-face cards far worse than Dunes mess with Domain, so I that line of reasoning is weak at best.
@ Doombringer: I just published a post answering your earlier question about design goals in more depth.
And land cards don't work because people use sleeves. Say your opponent rolls up with his 60 sleeved and no sideboard. You ruin one of his lands. That land then gets shuffled into his library. What do you do? It's clearly a marked card at this point.
I don't think there are any cards in black border capable of putting a card an opponent doesn't own into his deck.
To be clear, our Remaking Magic podcast often does a segment called "Critique a Card" - where we talk about various designs we see on the web and their underlying mechanics. We're going to talk about Ruin in one of those segments. We won't be doing a whole podcast on the topic.
EDIT - To explain why creating a new basic land type is a surprisingly significant issue for the rules, Magic tried this:
To add on to what Shadowfate has said, removing the ruined land from the sleeve and inserting the Dune land into the sleeve doesn't work for two reasons:
1) Players may forget to re-sleeve the land card that is supposed to be in their deck prior to the next game. Unlike DFC's, where the front- and back-face pairs are always the same, there is no guarantee that a Dune card will have replaced the same ruined land card every game, so players can't retroactively replace an unreplaced Dune card with, say, a Mountain or Bayou, in the same way that a player is allowed to turn over their Insectile Aberration back into Delver of Secrets if they forgot to do so between games.
2) Mechanics that are able to retrieve cards out of exile won't work. Replacing one card with another means a net change of 0 cards, but exiling and putting a card from outside the game into the game requires a net change of 1 card per instance.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
@ Shadowfate: Double-face cards don't work with sleeves, yet they still got printed.
@ Stairc: I understand the fight against Barry's Land, but I think it's pretty obvious which side I come down on. The biggest problem with a sixth basic land is that there was no real reason to include it other than to interact with Domain. The only reason Dune should see print is as part of a mechanic. And on the ownership issue, the current wording of Ruin actually implies that the Dune should be owned by your opponent. Of course you can give them one of yours so your ability doesn't fizzle (a necessary limitation, but not one which I think needs to be explicit in the reminder text of Ruin).
@ Thought Criminal: It's both players' responsibilities to make sure that the proper lands are returned to the proper decks. It should be pretty obvious considering that you'll have a stack of non-Dunes outside your deck after each game with Ruin. I am a full supporter of strict cheating rules (if you don't reveal your Morphs you lose, etc) as Magic is complicated enough without having to watch your opponent's sleight of hand. Along those lines I would have it be a player's responsibility to make sure their deck is restored to normal order at the end of each game, in much the same way you have to reveal morph cards.
Cards shouldn't be able to retrieve other cards from exile, except under very special circumstances where the exile zone behaves more like a holding zone than an exile zone.
@ Shadowfate: Double-face cards don't work with sleeves, yet they still got printed.
Not really comparable. Someone playing DFCs can replace all the DFCs in their deck with the checklist card that was printed along with them and switch them out when the card is relevant. Or they can play with opaque sleeves that don't show the card through. Either way, it has nothing to do with their opponent's deck and they're 100% prepared before the game.
Take this example: They have 60 sleeved cards and nothing else. You ruin their land, it's exiled. They cast Riftsweeper on it. Later, the Dune gets destroyed, and then they discard a Kozilek. The Dune and their land have both been shuffled into their deck. One of them doesn't have a sleeve. You didn't answer my question from my previous post: What do you do in this case?
Cards shouldn't be able to retrieve other cards from exile, except under very special circumstances where the exile zone behaves more like a holding zone than an exile zone.
But cards that do this already exist. You can't just say "Nope I don't think they should exist so I'm going to ignore them".
Even if we ignore them, restarting the game will shuffle cards that came in from outside of the game.
@ Shadowfate: Double-face cards don't work with sleeves, yet they still got printed.
This falls into the "front- and back-face pairs" problem that I discussed. DFC's will always work with sleeves, since there is only one possible set of characteristics that appears on a card that a person who forgot to turn over a back-faced DFC can possibly revert the card into, whether it be the actual front face of the card or the checklist card used to represent it.
@ Thought Criminal: It's both players' responsibilities to make sure that the proper lands are returned to the proper decks. It should be pretty obvious considering that you'll have a stack of non-Dunes outside your deck after each game with Ruin. I am a full supporter of strict cheating rules (if you don't reveal your Morphs you lose, etc) as Magic is complicated enough without having to watch your opponent's sleight of hand. Along those lines I would have it be a player's responsibility to make sure their deck is restored to normal order at the end of each game, in much the same way you have to reveal morph cards.
(emphasis mine)
Then the non-Dune cards were never exiled, but replaced entirely with the Dune cards. Replacing one card for another works; exiling doesn't.
Face-down spells and permanents are revealed just before the end of each game to ensure that players didn't cheat by somehow having one that was neither manifested nor was cast using the morph mechanic. Turning over DFC's to their front face and switching out Dunes for the original nonbasic lands are both done between games, similar to sideboarding.
Cards shouldn't be able to retrieve other cards from exile, except under very special circumstances where the exile zone behaves more like a holding zone than an exile zone.
This is a valid approach provided that there are no cards that exist that can retrieve things out of exile. If your mechanic works based on that assumption, then fine. But cards like Riftsweeper already exist, and so your mechanic doesn't work unless you address what happens with Riftsweeper and other similar cards.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Riftsweeper as far as I'm aware is the only card that will interact weirdly with Ruin and the exile zone. As an EDH player I'm a fan of unique interactions and the idea that you can win with Battle of Wits with a deck that starts with less than 200 cards will appeal to any Johnny. In the same vein of logic as Domain, I really don't think the weird interactions are going to happen in a meaningful way unless you go out of your way to make them happen.
Restarting the game would obviously allow players an opportunity to replace the cards in their deck; you're going to need to shuffle your library either way. If there was a extra card added to the game environment by Karn's ability, I don't see the big deal. It's a single Dune, hardly going to affect the larger play of either deck.
I agree that all the points you raised are entirely valid concerns, but I think with the right implementation and presentation the mechanic will be played correctly. Face down, double-face, suspend and the exile zone, planeswalkers, emblems and the command zone, Magic has proven time and time again that no rule is sacred and that it is worth at least trying something completely off the wall every once in a while.
I'm not talking about if it works mechanically, that's fine. If you were to read my complaints, it's about physically adding a dune card to a deck that does not have an extra sleeve for it because your OPPONENT is playing ruin. It's the job of each player to make sure they can support what their deck is doing. If there's a mechanic that forces ME to physically prepare extra sleeves on the off chance that my opponent might be playing it, then there's a problem.
Since it's implied I should own dune cards in case someone ruins my lands - how many dunes are you going to require players to bring to every game where these cards are legal for the rest of forever? As many as there are lands in my deck?
I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking what you plan to do about the logistics. You seem happy to accept the logistical concerns, but I'm not sure how you're accounting for these issues.
If you just want this to be your little custom set thing, fine. If you're suggesting it's workable as a real thing for Magic where there'd be tournaments and booster drafts and so on... I don't get it.
Riftsweeper as far as I'm aware is the only card that will interact weirdly with Ruin and the exile zone. As an EDH player I'm a fan of unique interactions and the idea that you can win with Battle of Wits with a deck that starts with less than 200 cards will appeal to any Johnny. Restarting the game would obviously allow players an opportunity to replace the cards in their deck; you're going to need to shuffle your library either way. If there was a extra card added to the game environment by Karn's ability, I don't see the big deal. It's a single Dune, hardly going to affect the larger play of either deck. I agree that all the points you raised are entirely valid concerns, but I think with the right implementation and presentation the mechanic will be played correctly. Face down, double-face, suspend and the exile zone, planeswalkers, emblems and the command zone, Magic has proven time and time again that no rule is sacred and that it is worth at least trying something completely off the wall every once in a while.
FWIW, replacing the land card with the Dune card does everything you want. If the intention is to make it so that the land card is be moved from in the game to outside the game, and that the Dune card is to be moved from outside the game into the game, then replacing causes exactly that location switch to happen.
I'm still not a fan of actually replacing one card with another where those cards have separate characteristics and have no relation to one another other than the application of a one-shot effect, but I don't think there's any other way to definitively do what you'd like to do.
When saying this, I even grant the existence of a blanket rule that states that cards that put Dune cards from outside the game into the game are illegal to play in a deck if access to Dune cards outside the game doesn't exist in some form. But even with the consideration of that rule, it is extremely difficult to make the mechanic work other than with actual card replacement.
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
@ DJK3654: A) Ruin is not land destruction, as the total number of lands (and this available mana) remains constant and B) Wizards like any large body is going to follow roughly the path of least resistance. Look at how simple a theme Khans block has: combat and creature size matter. I'm simply trying to achieve the same but with Ruin rather than Morph.
@ Stairc: I'm totally fine with you guys doing a podcast on Ruin, provided I'm part of that discussion. I don't really see what rules problems you're talking about. You already need a supply of basics to run Limited, adding another basic type doesn't change that need. Of the 20 basics normally included I'm planning on listing 5 as Dune with 3 for each of the other types. And on Domain, I don't think it really matters. Most domain cards will get slightly better (Tribal Flames is the only important card for Constructed I can think of) while cards like Coalition Victory will get slightly worse. But is that enough to kill the mechanic? I think not.
@ Advent: Every single one of your development points I discovered when first designing the original dust token version of Ruin. I will address each of them, plus some more I discovered, when I do my post on Developing Ruin (spoilers).
Land Disruption is what I meant. Wizards DO NOT follow the path of the last resistance, that is just wrong. They don't push that hard, but they definitely push. 'Look at how simple a theme Khans has'.... Are you serious? KTK block is one of the more complex blocks to date! Either you are sorely mistaken about it or really didn't make much of a point considering the only correct interpretation of this comment is minimal.
-
Continually you seem to ignore the point of just how risky Ruin is compared to how little fun it actually is. EVEN IF IT WAS ACTUALLY DEVELOPABLE (which it really isn't. It could work, but it never will in practice.) Ruin wouldn't really give anyone much excitement. Even Greifer players would be underwhelmed by it because it's minimalistic. Building around it will make it OP and unfun. Restricting it heavily will negate the whole point of a mechanic. Trying to make it weak will make it pointless. Given all the rules issues brought up here as well, there is just no good solution to this mechanic. I really don't think you should be doing it. It won't do anything good.
For those who are interested, I've updated my blog with the promised section on Nomads. I will get the next section on the "Big Bad" of Cazia up sometime later today.
@ Shadowfate: Sorry, I see what you mean now. I presumed that the assumption would be that since you're altering a card in an opponent's deck, it's their responsibility to make sure that they don't have a marked card in their deck. I can see how this could potentially be frustrating to some players, but I don't see it as being that different from the logistical problems inherent with double face cards. If Ruin were to get that relevant (which is something that could be controlled in Development) then players would adapt and simply bring some Dunes on the side (the number of which would vary, again controllable by Development).
@ Stairc: They will work in the same fashion as providing any other basic in Limited, in that the store will provide "enough". For tournament play it's a simple matter of providing Dunes as the organizer. I'm sure most players would eventually just bring their own supply of Dunes, ready sleeved to speed up play and reduce logistical headaches.
@ Thought Criminal: Replacing the card is what Ruin does currently. Or do you mean something more along these lines:
Ruin a/target land (Remove that land from the game and its controller puts a Dune basic land from outside the game onto the battlefield tapped under their control.)
I see the issue that you have with exile and I do think this version is better due to the reduced rules headaches and weird interactions. Oh well Riftsweeper-Battle of Wits combo!
@ DJK3654: If you're not going to be constructive, please refrain from commenting on my threads in the future.
@ DJK3654: If you're not going to be constructive, please refrain from commenting on my threads in the future.
Negative feedback is constructive. DJK is giving specific objections and stating specific things he believes are problems with the mechanic. He's also stating his opinion about the mechanic's viability. As the designer, that feedback is extremely valuable to you. It's up to you to determine whether the issues he brings up are genuinely areas for improvement or whether he is operating from a different goal or premise than you are.
In one of my professional projects, the best feedback I got was from a player raging about how much he hated the game. After further engagement, he finally exclaimed "It feels like a freakin' card game version of a MOBA!" Unknown to him, making a card game that felt like a MOBA was a major part of our design goal. He just happened to hate MOBAs. His reactions showed the game was working.
All feedback is legitimate. The only nonconstructive feedback is when someone's feedback is too broad to be useful.
I agree. Luckily, that's not what he posted. You're allowed to tell someone that you think what they're doing is wrong and that they shouldn't do it. You just have to include reasons for that, and he did.
@ Thought Criminal: Replacing the card is what Ruin does currently. Or do you mean something more along these lines:
Ruin a/target land (Remove that land from the game and its controller puts a Dune basic land from outside the game onto the battlefield tapped under their control.)
I see the issue that you have with exile and I do think this version is better due to the reduced rules headaches and weird interactions. Oh well Riftsweeper-Battle of Wits combo!
To avoid possible confusions with players who still refer to "exile" as "remove from the game", I'd change the reminder text to say "That land's controller exchanges it with a Dune basic land card from outside the game. The Dune enters the battlefield tapped under that player's control."
But there's another situation that can arise here. Let's say you have exactly ten cards in your deck that can ruin lands, exactly one land to be ruined for each, and so you set aside ten Dune cards to account for all ten cards to be used in a game. But what happens if one or more of them are recurred somehow? For example, what happens if all ten ruin cards are used, and one of them is Reclaimed only to be cast on the next turn? How will the eleventh land be dealt with?
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
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Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I'm not going to reword a mechanic just to satisfy a chunk of the playerbase who are playing the game wrong.
I don't see how this situation you described is any different than any of the other situations that arise when players don't have access to given materials. Either the ability fizzles (which I'm fine with btw) or you allow the players to play with tokens (or change the mechanic to tokens, which I've already explained doesn't work). Everything is going to be about reasonable availability, so if you expect to be able to Ruin 11 lands you should have 11+ Dunes to hand. But in your hypothetical, where you had 10 Ruin and a Reclaim, can you really expect to be Ruining 11 lands? Dunes are going to be basics, showing up at higher frequency (I'm even thinking Cazia, Deadworld might just have Dunes and no other basics other than for Intro packs).
EDIT: I've made a page on which I will concentrating all my postings about Cazia. That page will serve as both a reference, with links to appropriate other pages throughout the forums and as a place to discuss the general shape of the set.
I don't see why not. Magic has a lot of specific terminology which it doesn't need. Library could be deck, graveyard could be discard, battlefield could be play. Having that terminology allows the design of more flavourful, specific mechanics. The confusing part of Ruin's current wording isn't whether or not players are referring to exile as the "outside of game zone", rather that the current wording of Ruin acknowledges that the exile zone is part of the game and therefore sets some precedents about its usage in future mechanics. I don't see anything that's wrong with that. I'm open to changing the wording to some sort of "exchange", but I think it is clearer as is.
Ok, so it would appear that either you feel quite strongly about this mechanic or that you have misinterpreted my criticism as something more personal. My intention is and was to provide what I consider to be useful feedback pointing out problems and challenges in any design. I understand that there is potential in this mechanic. As with any mechanic, there's always some way of looking at it that makes it look good. The challenge is being able to effectively evaluate design from every relevant angle. With Ruin, I do not consider it to be successful in several of these ways. Since I have already said all I need to say for now, I would like to hear more about your thinking behind it's design and why it is so apparently different from the way I see it. I may very well be wrong, but of course I do not believe I will be (I'm only human).
What is the purpose behind the mechanic? What role does it fill and how does it appeal to players?
What is fun about the mechanic? What does it add to the game compared to problems it may have?
How will you ensure the mechanic does not warp meta-games and meets an acceptable power level for what it is?
If you answer these questions, I will give you my reasoning in response and we could come to some sort of conclusion about this issue.
@ Doombringer: I just published a post answering your earlier question about design goals in more depth.
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To be clear, our Remaking Magic podcast often does a segment called "Critique a Card" - where we talk about various designs we see on the web and their underlying mechanics. We're going to talk about Ruin in one of those segments. We won't be doing a whole podcast on the topic.
EDIT - To explain why creating a new basic land type is a surprisingly significant issue for the rules, Magic tried this:
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/25
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
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1) Players may forget to re-sleeve the land card that is supposed to be in their deck prior to the next game. Unlike DFC's, where the front- and back-face pairs are always the same, there is no guarantee that a Dune card will have replaced the same ruined land card every game, so players can't retroactively replace an unreplaced Dune card with, say, a Mountain or Bayou, in the same way that a player is allowed to turn over their Insectile Aberration back into Delver of Secrets if they forgot to do so between games.
2) Mechanics that are able to retrieve cards out of exile won't work. Replacing one card with another means a net change of 0 cards, but exiling and putting a card from outside the game into the game requires a net change of 1 card per instance.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
@ Stairc: I understand the fight against Barry's Land, but I think it's pretty obvious which side I come down on. The biggest problem with a sixth basic land is that there was no real reason to include it other than to interact with Domain. The only reason Dune should see print is as part of a mechanic. And on the ownership issue, the current wording of Ruin actually implies that the Dune should be owned by your opponent. Of course you can give them one of yours so your ability doesn't fizzle (a necessary limitation, but not one which I think needs to be explicit in the reminder text of Ruin).
@ Thought Criminal: It's both players' responsibilities to make sure that the proper lands are returned to the proper decks. It should be pretty obvious considering that you'll have a stack of non-Dunes outside your deck after each game with Ruin. I am a full supporter of strict cheating rules (if you don't reveal your Morphs you lose, etc) as Magic is complicated enough without having to watch your opponent's sleight of hand. Along those lines I would have it be a player's responsibility to make sure their deck is restored to normal order at the end of each game, in much the same way you have to reveal morph cards.
Cards shouldn't be able to retrieve other cards from exile, except under very special circumstances where the exile zone behaves more like a holding zone than an exile zone.
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Take this example: They have 60 sleeved cards and nothing else. You ruin their land, it's exiled. They cast Riftsweeper on it. Later, the Dune gets destroyed, and then they discard a Kozilek. The Dune and their land have both been shuffled into their deck. One of them doesn't have a sleeve. You didn't answer my question from my previous post: What do you do in this case?
But cards that do this already exist. You can't just say "Nope I don't think they should exist so I'm going to ignore them".
Even if we ignore them, restarting the game will shuffle cards that came in from outside of the game.
This falls into the "front- and back-face pairs" problem that I discussed. DFC's will always work with sleeves, since there is only one possible set of characteristics that appears on a card that a person who forgot to turn over a back-faced DFC can possibly revert the card into, whether it be the actual front face of the card or the checklist card used to represent it.
(emphasis mine)
Then the non-Dune cards were never exiled, but replaced entirely with the Dune cards. Replacing one card for another works; exiling doesn't.
Face-down spells and permanents are revealed just before the end of each game to ensure that players didn't cheat by somehow having one that was neither manifested nor was cast using the morph mechanic. Turning over DFC's to their front face and switching out Dunes for the original nonbasic lands are both done between games, similar to sideboarding.
This is a valid approach provided that there are no cards that exist that can retrieve things out of exile. If your mechanic works based on that assumption, then fine. But cards like Riftsweeper already exist, and so your mechanic doesn't work unless you address what happens with Riftsweeper and other similar cards.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Restarting the game would obviously allow players an opportunity to replace the cards in their deck; you're going to need to shuffle your library either way. If there was a extra card added to the game environment by Karn's ability, I don't see the big deal. It's a single Dune, hardly going to affect the larger play of either deck.
I agree that all the points you raised are entirely valid concerns, but I think with the right implementation and presentation the mechanic will be played correctly. Face down, double-face, suspend and the exile zone, planeswalkers, emblems and the command zone, Magic has proven time and time again that no rule is sacred and that it is worth at least trying something completely off the wall every once in a while.
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I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking what you plan to do about the logistics. You seem happy to accept the logistical concerns, but I'm not sure how you're accounting for these issues.
If you just want this to be your little custom set thing, fine. If you're suggesting it's workable as a real thing for Magic where there'd be tournaments and booster drafts and so on... I don't get it.
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FWIW, replacing the land card with the Dune card does everything you want. If the intention is to make it so that the land card is be moved from in the game to outside the game, and that the Dune card is to be moved from outside the game into the game, then replacing causes exactly that location switch to happen.
I'm still not a fan of actually replacing one card with another where those cards have separate characteristics and have no relation to one another other than the application of a one-shot effect, but I don't think there's any other way to definitively do what you'd like to do.
When saying this, I even grant the existence of a blanket rule that states that cards that put Dune cards from outside the game into the game are illegal to play in a deck if access to Dune cards outside the game doesn't exist in some form. But even with the consideration of that rule, it is extremely difficult to make the mechanic work other than with actual card replacement.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Land Disruption is what I meant. Wizards DO NOT follow the path of the last resistance, that is just wrong. They don't push that hard, but they definitely push. 'Look at how simple a theme Khans has'.... Are you serious? KTK block is one of the more complex blocks to date! Either you are sorely mistaken about it or really didn't make much of a point considering the only correct interpretation of this comment is minimal.
-
Continually you seem to ignore the point of just how risky Ruin is compared to how little fun it actually is. EVEN IF IT WAS ACTUALLY DEVELOPABLE (which it really isn't. It could work, but it never will in practice.) Ruin wouldn't really give anyone much excitement. Even Greifer players would be underwhelmed by it because it's minimalistic. Building around it will make it OP and unfun. Restricting it heavily will negate the whole point of a mechanic. Trying to make it weak will make it pointless. Given all the rules issues brought up here as well, there is just no good solution to this mechanic. I really don't think you should be doing it. It won't do anything good.
Thank you.
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@ Shadowfate: Sorry, I see what you mean now. I presumed that the assumption would be that since you're altering a card in an opponent's deck, it's their responsibility to make sure that they don't have a marked card in their deck. I can see how this could potentially be frustrating to some players, but I don't see it as being that different from the logistical problems inherent with double face cards. If Ruin were to get that relevant (which is something that could be controlled in Development) then players would adapt and simply bring some Dunes on the side (the number of which would vary, again controllable by Development).
@ Stairc: They will work in the same fashion as providing any other basic in Limited, in that the store will provide "enough". For tournament play it's a simple matter of providing Dunes as the organizer. I'm sure most players would eventually just bring their own supply of Dunes, ready sleeved to speed up play and reduce logistical headaches.
@ Thought Criminal: Replacing the card is what Ruin does currently. Or do you mean something more along these lines:
Ruin a/target land (Remove that land from the game and its controller puts a Dune basic land from outside the game onto the battlefield tapped under their control.)
I see the issue that you have with exile and I do think this version is better due to the reduced rules headaches and weird interactions. Oh well Riftsweeper-Battle of Wits combo!
@ DJK3654: If you're not going to be constructive, please refrain from commenting on my threads in the future.
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
Negative feedback is constructive. DJK is giving specific objections and stating specific things he believes are problems with the mechanic. He's also stating his opinion about the mechanic's viability. As the designer, that feedback is extremely valuable to you. It's up to you to determine whether the issues he brings up are genuinely areas for improvement or whether he is operating from a different goal or premise than you are.
In one of my professional projects, the best feedback I got was from a player raging about how much he hated the game. After further engagement, he finally exclaimed "It feels like a freakin' card game version of a MOBA!" Unknown to him, making a card game that felt like a MOBA was a major part of our design goal. He just happened to hate MOBAs. His reactions showed the game was working.
All feedback is legitimate. The only nonconstructive feedback is when someone's feedback is too broad to be useful.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
To avoid possible confusions with players who still refer to "exile" as "remove from the game", I'd change the reminder text to say "That land's controller exchanges it with a Dune basic land card from outside the game. The Dune enters the battlefield tapped under that player's control."
But there's another situation that can arise here. Let's say you have exactly ten cards in your deck that can ruin lands, exactly one land to be ruined for each, and so you set aside ten Dune cards to account for all ten cards to be used in a game. But what happens if one or more of them are recurred somehow? For example, what happens if all ten ruin cards are used, and one of them is Reclaimed only to be cast on the next turn? How will the eleventh land be dealt with?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I don't see how this situation you described is any different than any of the other situations that arise when players don't have access to given materials. Either the ability fizzles (which I'm fine with btw) or you allow the players to play with tokens (or change the mechanic to tokens, which I've already explained doesn't work). Everything is going to be about reasonable availability, so if you expect to be able to Ruin 11 lands you should have 11+ Dunes to hand. But in your hypothetical, where you had 10 Ruin and a Reclaim, can you really expect to be Ruining 11 lands? Dunes are going to be basics, showing up at higher frequency (I'm even thinking Cazia, Deadworld might just have Dunes and no other basics other than for Intro packs).
EDIT: I've made a page on which I will concentrating all my postings about Cazia. That page will serve as both a reference, with links to appropriate other pages throughout the forums and as a place to discuss the general shape of the set.
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
"Learn-2-Play Noob" is fine for trolling LoL chat - but not a productive attitude for a designer to have.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
What is the purpose behind the mechanic? What role does it fill and how does it appeal to players?
What is fun about the mechanic? What does it add to the game compared to problems it may have?
How will you ensure the mechanic does not warp meta-games and meets an acceptable power level for what it is?
If you answer these questions, I will give you my reasoning in response and we could come to some sort of conclusion about this issue.
Thank you.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice