What's the right toughness in your opinion to give a Giant Soldier costing 3W if it has 3 power, no keywords or abilities, and I want it to be powerful and playable?
How about a 6 power Treefolk costing 3GG?
0 power UU Human Wizard?
4 power 3R Beast?
4 power 1BB Zombie Knight?
What's the highest you'd go for each of those examples, without feeling like it was unfair, or obsoleted already-playable creatures?
For UU you can get 1/4 (Plated Seastrider), and for U you get 0/4 (Kraken Hatchling), so 0/4 if you want it weaker, or 0/5 if you want a slower limited.
If you want 4 power at 3cmc, 4/1 is standard (Regathan Firecat, Gore Swine). 4/2 can be done, but it depends on the set, and black shouldn't be that efficient anyway. (Alpine Grizzly is the only one.)
The question is a little under specified. Powerful and playable in limited? In Legacy? I will give four answers for each, corresponding to limited, Standard, Modern, and Legacy.
3W:3/(4,12,n/a,n/a)
3GG:6/(4,n/a,n/a,n/a)
UU:0/(6,20,20,20) maybe a combo with something
3R:4/(3,7,n/a,n/a)
1BB:4/(2,4,10,n/a)
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Hey, thanks for the suggestions guys.
Sorry for not being clear in the OP, woops! I'm going for constructed playable cards, and hopefully not cards that already have better equivalents in print. You know, the area between inappropriately undercosted (Wurmcoil Engine and Scuttling Doom Engine come to mind!) and unplayably weak. Sorry to the limited enthusiasts out there... I'm pretending that doesn't exist for the purpose of this thread. And yes I know some consider that "cheating"
The 4/2 1BB does seem about right, and I think I like the 6/5 3GG too. Sliver Lord's point is well taken (that if you want a vanilla creature to be playable - and competitive - in older formats it would have to be fairly ridiculous). So the results of this thread aren't meant to dominate Legacy competitions, but I guess could be the type of things you'd want in a Modern creature based deck, or something like what we used to call Extended, and I suppose if they were to be legal in Standard they'd be good enough to see some play there. Kalonian Tusker, I feel, is appropriately costed. I don't want it any bigger at that cost, personally. But I also wouldn't want it smaller. They got it right. I'm kinda looking for more designs I could say the same about.
A 3GG 6/1000 isn't standard playable. That's why it received an n/a in my second column. The four mana ones are hard, but Alms Beast was block playable, so maybe you can get there.
As far as the 1BB guy goes, Smiter is basically the bar you have to measure up to, although a4/5 is more reliable.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I'm not entirely sure about that. Arbor Colossus is very playable and he still feels goods against decks were his reach and monstrous ability have no relevance. I'm mean, RG decks don't side him out against decks that don't play flying creatures, which says something...
My opinion, taking standard and constructed as base in typical FNM level event. For the sake of the exercise, I'm not counting the toughness matter cards or possible tribal cards.
3W - 3/8 at very least and even then it's fringe SB material if there's anything important attack as a 5/3 or something like that. UU - 0/9 but event then it could be very unplayable depending on the rest of the blue card pool. 1BB - 4/3 is fringe playable, 4/4 is solid. 3R - 4/6 being barely playable. 3GG - 6/9 and even then, it's not going to see play the vast majority of time.
You're not going to reach a design like Kalonian Tusker by limiting everything but toughness through. This gets a lot more productive if you either go for a full p/t change or fix the pt and search for a mana cost.
Hey, thanks for the suggestions guys.
Sorry for not being clear in the OP, woops! I'm going for constructed playable cards, and hopefully not cards that already have better equivalents in print. You know, the area between inappropriately undercosted (Wurmcoil Engine and Scuttling Doom Engine come to mind!) and unplayably weak. Sorry to the limited enthusiasts out there... I'm pretending that doesn't exist for the purpose of this thread. And yes I know some consider that "cheating"
The 4/2 1BB does seem about right, and I think I like the 6/5 3GG too. Sliver Lord's point is well taken (that if you want a vanilla creature to be playable - and competitive - in older formats it would have to be fairly ridiculous). So the results of this thread aren't meant to dominate Legacy competitions, but I guess could be the type of things you'd want in a Modern creature based deck, or something like what we used to call Extended, and I suppose if they were to be legal in Standard they'd be good enough to see some play there. Kalonian Tusker, I feel, is appropriately costed. I don't want it any bigger at that cost, personally. But I also wouldn't want it smaller. They got it right. I'm kinda looking for more designs I could say the same about.
I wouldn't call Scuttling Doom Engine undercosted (except in Limited). I'm not seeing it in competitive Constructed decks in any format. It's at the lower fringe of Standard playable cards.
Answering the questions with Standard in mind:
3W: 3 power is not enough to see play at any toughness, except if that toughness allows a combo (e.g. 3/20 in a format where Doran is legal)
3GG: Same answer, with one caveat: Formats with weak removal and counters (like present Standard) might find a use for this card. Arbor Colossus is played for synergy reasons but is just good enough right now.
UU: 0/7 is getting there, maybe, as a purely defensive play. That turn 2, then Ashiok T3 is actually scary.
1BB: 4/3 might be fringe playable. 4/5 would be legitimately good.
3R: Needs to be 'better' than 4/4 (as Rosheen Meanderer never saw play and that was in a world of weaker creatures, and she had a legitimately powerful, if hard to use, ability). But I'm not sure that 4/10 is much 'better' than 4/4.
Basically, I don't think vanilla creatures are in a good spot in Magic these days. Remember, Deadbridge Goliath was never played in Standard, and it's quite a bit better than 2GG 5/5. Likewise Kalonian Hydra saw little play despite being considerably better than an 8/4 trample.
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How about a 6 power Treefolk costing 3GG?
0 power UU Human Wizard?
4 power 3R Beast?
4 power 1BB Zombie Knight?
What's the highest you'd go for each of those examples, without feeling like it was unfair, or obsoleted already-playable creatures?
.
For 3GG, 6/4 could be possible (Streetbreaker Wurm), but would be really, really good. 6/3 would be better. (Panther Warriors)
For UU you can get 1/4 (Plated Seastrider), and for U you get 0/4 (Kraken Hatchling), so 0/4 if you want it weaker, or 0/5 if you want a slower limited.
The standard is 4/2 for 3R (Lizard Warrior), but for 2RR you can get 4/3 (Ogre Resister).
If you want 4 power at 3cmc, 4/1 is standard (Regathan Firecat, Gore Swine). 4/2 can be done, but it depends on the set, and black shouldn't be that efficient anyway. (Alpine Grizzly is the only one.)
Avant Block: Avant -- Stormfront
3W:3/(4,12,n/a,n/a)
3GG:6/(4,n/a,n/a,n/a)
UU:0/(6,20,20,20) maybe a combo with something
3R:4/(3,7,n/a,n/a)
1BB:4/(2,4,10,n/a)
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
For the others:
3W - 3/4
UU - 0/5
3R - 4/3
1BB - 4/2
My custom sets:
Caeia Block (Released - Beta)
Generals of Dareth (In Design)
Sorry for not being clear in the OP, woops! I'm going for constructed playable cards, and hopefully not cards that already have better equivalents in print. You know, the area between inappropriately undercosted (Wurmcoil Engine and Scuttling Doom Engine come to mind!) and unplayably weak. Sorry to the limited enthusiasts out there... I'm pretending that doesn't exist for the purpose of this thread. And yes I know some consider that "cheating"
The 4/2 1BB does seem about right, and I think I like the 6/5 3GG too. Sliver Lord's point is well taken (that if you want a vanilla creature to be playable - and competitive - in older formats it would have to be fairly ridiculous). So the results of this thread aren't meant to dominate Legacy competitions, but I guess could be the type of things you'd want in a Modern creature based deck, or something like what we used to call Extended, and I suppose if they were to be legal in Standard they'd be good enough to see some play there.
Kalonian Tusker, I feel, is appropriately costed. I don't want it any bigger at that cost, personally. But I also wouldn't want it smaller. They got it right. I'm kinda looking for more designs I could say the same about.
.
As far as the 1BB guy goes, Smiter is basically the bar you have to measure up to, although a4/5 is more reliable.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
My opinion, taking standard and constructed as base in typical FNM level event. For the sake of the exercise, I'm not counting the toughness matter cards or possible tribal cards.
3W - 3/8 at very least and even then it's fringe SB material if there's anything important attack as a 5/3 or something like that.
UU - 0/9 but event then it could be very unplayable depending on the rest of the blue card pool.
1BB - 4/3 is fringe playable, 4/4 is solid.
3R - 4/6 being barely playable.
3GG - 6/9 and even then, it's not going to see play the vast majority of time.
You're not going to reach a design like Kalonian Tusker by limiting everything but toughness through. This gets a lot more productive if you either go for a full p/t change or fix the pt and search for a mana cost.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I wouldn't call Scuttling Doom Engine undercosted (except in Limited). I'm not seeing it in competitive Constructed decks in any format. It's at the lower fringe of Standard playable cards.
Answering the questions with Standard in mind:
3W: 3 power is not enough to see play at any toughness, except if that toughness allows a combo (e.g. 3/20 in a format where Doran is legal)
3GG: Same answer, with one caveat: Formats with weak removal and counters (like present Standard) might find a use for this card. Arbor Colossus is played for synergy reasons but is just good enough right now.
UU: 0/7 is getting there, maybe, as a purely defensive play. That turn 2, then Ashiok T3 is actually scary.
1BB: 4/3 might be fringe playable. 4/5 would be legitimately good.
3R: Needs to be 'better' than 4/4 (as Rosheen Meanderer never saw play and that was in a world of weaker creatures, and she had a legitimately powerful, if hard to use, ability). But I'm not sure that 4/10 is much 'better' than 4/4.
Basically, I don't think vanilla creatures are in a good spot in Magic these days. Remember, Deadbridge Goliath was never played in Standard, and it's quite a bit better than 2GG 5/5. Likewise Kalonian Hydra saw little play despite being considerably better than an 8/4 trample.