A card that you have to remember is in play, because it triggers even when you're not looking at it (especially when it's not a MAY ability, as Emeria's Faithful's trigger isn't optional), increases the amount of complexity going on. It requires players to mentally track more things, not for strategic value necessarily - but rather simply to properly follow the rules of the game. That takes up more mindspace. I'm just not sure it falls under a specific red flag.
After going over a few old podcasts of DTW (I'll try and find the exact episode sometime) Mark mentioned a story about the use of "may abilities" and how they started using may abilities to stop the rules breaking from missed triggers. However he talked about how they have been moving back to not using may abilites as it made things harder for the Magic Online players who have to click way more buttons. Instead they simply changed the missed trigger rules in the higher level events where it actually mattered.
Basically in casual games (which are what new players are playing at most of the time.) all triggers act like may abilities because if a player forgets them they rarely notice anyway.
I'm not saying that this isn't adding a little bit of complexity but as things like prowess and the ally mechanic have shown I don't think it is enough to warrant a targeting red flag, especially as you are usually re-evaluating the board state after you play a creature anyway (thus answering your "looking at it" concern.).
Unfortunately, many players don't look at all their cards every time they play a new one. That's why pros playing with tons of money on the line still miss triggers as you just cited.
It's definitely adding more complexity than a may ability. You can argue that players in casual games can just not follow the rules, but the game is still more complex when players are forced into doing these things. They have to track more stuff. That's why, as you mentioned, all these things used to be "may" abilities. Fewer clicks on Magic Online doesn't change the fact that it's added complexity outside of Magic Online.
But the point of the change to using less "may effects" is because in a casual games a Soul's Attendant and a [card]Soul Warden[card] don't play any differently.
These cards are only different during tournament play, which new players are rarely participating in.
I'll have another look for the exact quote, it may have been in one of the RotE card by card podcasts.....
But the point of the change to using less "may effects" is because in a casual games a Soul's Attendant and a [card]Soul Warden[card] don't play any differently.
These cards are only different during tournament play, which new players are rarely participating in.
I'll have another look for the exact quote, it may have been in one of the RotE card by card podcasts.....
I'm pretty dang sure the change was made because it causes fewer problems for Magic Online when people don't have to click "Yes, I want to use Soul Warden's ability" every time a creature enters the battlefield. 99% sure I remember Maro saying that. However, if you've got a quote though that says otherwise, please post it. It'd be great information.
Multicolor and hybrid doesn't apply to any of the red flags.
However there is concern about having both gold and hybrid in the same environment as it can quickly increase the complexity of building a deck in limited (especially sealed).
This was talked about by MaRo in his podcasts about the design of the original ravnica blocks. The pro level developers were having lots of trouble when the set was initially full of a lot more hybrid.
For example note that RTR only has a single cycle of hybrid common cards and a single cycle of hybrid uncommons.
I would be wary of having any more than that. Note that of the two mechanics (hybrid and gold cards) that hybrid is the more complex as well as harder to design for.
So hybrid is subject to the NWO? If so, it's a shame because my set is PACKED with hybrid noncreature cards at common as well as a double cycle of hybrid 1/1's.
The pro level developers were having lots of trouble when the set was initially full of a lot more hybrid.
So hybrid is subject to the NWO? If so, it's a shame because my set is PACKED with hybrid noncreature cards at common as well as a double cycle of hybrid 1/1's.
No sorry if it wasn't clear.
Neither hybrid or gold on their own are subject to Red Flagging.
However the two mechanics when placed in the same environment have greater complexity than the sum of their whole.
It is possible to have both the mechanics in the one set (see RTR) but pick one of the mechanics to do in vastly smaller amounts.
The pro level developers were having lots of trouble when the set was initially full of a lot more hybrid.
What are you saying?
When they were building the original ravnica set, they initially had a lot more gold and hybrid cards together.
When the development department playtested it, the feedback they got was that it was way too complicated even for them (who are often players who have won pro tours etc.)
Basically NWO deals with Comprehension Complexity and Tracking Complexity (both terms we'll be discussing during our next podcast in depth). The short version is that Comprehension Complexity is how hard a card is to understand and Tracking Complexity is the mental strain of having to keep track of a lot of things in your head at once. Having both gold and hybrid in a set causes a lot of tracking complexity *during deckbuilding and drafting* - which are not things NWO red flags focus on. I remember spending six hours before the Alara Reborn prerelease developing a system to efficiently sort the sealed deck pool for the 2HG event I'd be playing in. I believe I ended up using 23 distinct piles that collapsed into other piles as certain piles were cut. This is an absurd amount of added complexity to a sealed deck environment. However, NWO as designed doesn't see it - because NWO deals with things on a card by card basis. It's only the combination of cards in the set, with normal gold cards put into the same set as hybrid cards, that makes this happen. NWO is a fantastic tool, but the redflags are built to deal with complexity on a card by card basis. The Gold + Hybrid = Lots of Complexity is just something R&D has to keep in mind.
I'd actually say that a set with a lot of gold cards is easier to track than a lot of hybrid cards. Hybrid cards mess with peoples' heads because they're simultaneously in 2 piles. This card could be red OR green. That shifting identity makes it hard to figure out whether your pool's red or green is stronger. If the card is standard gold, being red AND green, you can put it off to the side in its own pile and check to see if you can run a good red and green deck.
As for the ratio, I expect there is one but I'm not aware if it's been made public. You could probably figure it out by checking the published sets and breaking down the numbers.
Didn't really crunch numbers, but hybrid count at common for all six Rav sets in order of release is 5, 3, 3 and 5, 5, 0.
Lorwyn/Morningtide has zero multicolor at common. Shadowmoor and Eventide had 45 and 30 hybrids at common, respectively.
Since my set is an imaginary core set in which the revisited "mechanic" is hybrid, a full cycle of hybrid creature cards + a full cycle of hybrid noncreature cards is coincidentally a perfect 20% of the common card pool (100 commons). Kind of off the subject, but thanks again.
Hey, this is pretty awesome! Thanks for typing it up. I was wondering, how does transform/Double-Faced cards interact with NWO? Do you add up the text on each side, or do you consider each side on its own? Or does the fact that it's even double-faced in the first place warrant a red flag (due to new players having to read the card twice / ask about it multiple times)?
Hey, this is pretty awesome! Thanks for typing it up. I was wondering, how does transform/Double-Faced cards interact with NWO? Do you add up the text on each side, or do you consider each side on its own? Or does the fact that it's even double-faced in the first place warrant a red flag (due to new players having to read the card twice / ask about it multiple times)?
I've sent a question to Blogatog to confirm this but my understanding from looking at the common transform cards from innistrad is that the vanilla and french vanilla transform cards are not red flagged as long as they have a consistent transform trigger.
This helps massively cut down on comprehension complexity (the ability to read/understand a card)
So this means as an example: Villagers of Estwald would be fine under NWO. But a card like Thraben Sentry or Delver of Secrets probably warrants a red flag because them don't conform to the usual transofrm trigger used in the set.
Also something to think about is that you only got a single transform card for pack, thus mitigating some of the added complexity.
Vulshok Sorcerer falls under the "Does it have the potential to kill multiple card at once" and the "targeting/does it affect other permanents" red flags. Its the kind of card that should nearly never be at common unless for a very good reason. I really should expand the "Does it have the potential to kill multiple card at once" section as it is supposed to include cards that can kill multiple things even over time, not just all at once.
Scroll Thief is fine under NWO. Its a good common that has low complexity and is easy to understand. Its not something you want to push with evasion or a super efficient body. (eg No Thieving Magpie at common) but thats because of developmental and power level issues rather than NWO concerns.
Cards like Jeskai Sage and your example that cantrip fall under the same rule as cards like divination in that they are exempt due to not being a board affecting 2 for 1.
One thing that doesn't really get mentioned as redflagged (as they were rare to see at common pre-NWO) is inevitability engines.
Cards that threaten to take the game over on their own if it goes long should never be commons.
Examples:
- Sprout Swarm, Capsize (the most extreme examples)
- Reusable token generation (Cenn's Enlistment)
- Strong card filtration engines (Merfolk Looter). Bad ones don't really generate inevitability but strong ones do.
Two mechanics in particular - Spellshapers (Waterfront Bouncer) and Retrace (Raven's Crime) would probably not be welcome at common for this reason, or at least every card with the mechanic would be redflagged.
Looters are not redflags in any form. Toying with the amount of card filtration can make huge differences in a format, but looters at common are entirely fine. Case in point the very powerful Zephyr Scribe coming in DTK.
One thing that doesn't really get mentioned as redflagged (as they were rare to see at common pre-NWO) is inevitability engines.
Cards that can form loops without additional resources such as Sprout Swarm are definitely red flagged. This is included in the primer already.
However you are incorrect about Spellshapers and Retrace. The need to discard lands makes it perfectly acceptable within red flagging. (though Waterfront Bouncer would be red flagged as an on-board trick)
However looting have never and will never be red flagged, your right they do lead to inevitability but the same thing can be said of unblockable creatures or dozens of other mechanics that are integral to the game. Inevitability is a good thing that limited environments need to create fun gameplay.
Your right that super efficient looters can have power level concerns but thats got very little to do with Red Flagging.
The reasons commons need to often avoid being too powerful is because keeping uncommons at an overall higher power level (and rares overall even stronger) encourages diversity in limited environments. If the cards that show up most often are more powerful, then you rarely have reason to play other cards. It doesn't have to do with complexity tracking that is dealt with via NWO.
More concerns go into designing commons than NWO. NWO is just one tool.
Ok now lets look at another example: Gideon's Lawkeeper
Now this looks like another example of a simple common that breaks this rule right?
WRONG
Tappers don't activate this red flag.
This is because they have to be used before combat and thus actually simplify the board complexity by making less choices in attacker or blockers. This can then apply to any sorcery speed activated ability or an ability that doesn't effect the board state such as Voyaging Satyr.
How about forcing a card like Infantry Veteran to be used before combat?
Loyal EscortW Creature -- Human Soldier (C?) T: Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
1/1
Or in case of a potential feel-bad moment in forgetting that you have that ability until you are looking at your creatures as you are declaring attackers, maybe just forcing it before blockers are declared?
T: Target attacking creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Activate this ability only during the declare attackers step.
But the problem wih +1/+1 before combat compared to tapping is there is not distinct visual reminder like that card being sideways.
I could easily imagine the following card not being Red Flagged, because the counter acts as a memory aid and thus removes the "feel bad moments"
Pride Escort 1W
Creature -- Cat Soldier (C?) T: Put a +1/+1 counter on another target creature you control. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
1/1
EDIT: your second ability is better as its closer in time and thus less chance of the other player forgetting but probably still borderline.
An important point: All of the common quests had exactly the same first ability and they all required three quest counters to activate their second abilities. It was only the effects of their activated abilities that differed. Of those, red and green were the most complicated, while white and blue were both very simple effects.
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However I wanted to talk about this:
After going over a few old podcasts of DTW (I'll try and find the exact episode sometime) Mark mentioned a story about the use of "may abilities" and how they started using may abilities to stop the rules breaking from missed triggers. However he talked about how they have been moving back to not using may abilites as it made things harder for the Magic Online players who have to click way more buttons. Instead they simply changed the missed trigger rules in the higher level events where it actually mattered.
Basically in casual games (which are what new players are playing at most of the time.) all triggers act like may abilities because if a player forgets them they rarely notice anyway.
I'm not saying that this isn't adding a little bit of complexity but as things like prowess and the ally mechanic have shown I don't think it is enough to warrant a targeting red flag, especially as you are usually re-evaluating the board state after you play a creature anyway (thus answering your "looking at it" concern.).
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
It's definitely adding more complexity than a may ability. You can argue that players in casual games can just not follow the rules, but the game is still more complex when players are forced into doing these things. They have to track more stuff. That's why, as you mentioned, all these things used to be "may" abilities. Fewer clicks on Magic Online doesn't change the fact that it's added complexity outside of Magic Online.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
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These cards are only different during tournament play, which new players are rarely participating in.
I'll have another look for the exact quote, it may have been in one of the RotE card by card podcasts.....
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
I'm pretty dang sure the change was made because it causes fewer problems for Magic Online when people don't have to click "Yes, I want to use Soul Warden's ability" every time a creature enters the battlefield. 99% sure I remember Maro saying that. However, if you've got a quote though that says otherwise, please post it. It'd be great information.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Where does multicolor fit into NWO?
Multicolor and hybrid doesn't apply to any of the red flags.
However there is concern about having both gold and hybrid in the same environment as it can quickly increase the complexity of building a deck in limited (especially sealed).
This was talked about by MaRo in his podcasts about the design of the original ravnica blocks. The pro level developers were having lots of trouble when the set was initially full of a lot more hybrid.
For example note that RTR only has a single cycle of hybrid common cards and a single cycle of hybrid uncommons.
I would be wary of having any more than that. Note that of the two mechanics (hybrid and gold cards) that hybrid is the more complex as well as harder to design for.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
What are you saying?
No sorry if it wasn't clear.
Neither hybrid or gold on their own are subject to Red Flagging.
However the two mechanics when placed in the same environment have greater complexity than the sum of their whole.
It is possible to have both the mechanics in the one set (see RTR) but pick one of the mechanics to do in vastly smaller amounts.
When they were building the original ravnica set, they initially had a lot more gold and hybrid cards together.
When the development department playtested it, the feedback they got was that it was way too complicated even for them (who are often players who have won pro tours etc.)
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Is there a known or recommended ratio/threshold of gold:hybrid or multi:mono?
A pool full of hybrids is easier to track than one full of golds - correct?
As for the ratio, I expect there is one but I'm not aware if it's been made public. You could probably figure it out by checking the published sets and breaking down the numbers.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Lorwyn/Morningtide has zero multicolor at common. Shadowmoor and Eventide had 45 and 30 hybrids at common, respectively.
Since my set is an imaginary core set in which the revisited "mechanic" is hybrid, a full cycle of hybrid creature cards + a full cycle of hybrid noncreature cards is coincidentally a perfect 20% of the common card pool (100 commons). Kind of off the subject, but thanks again.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
I've sent a question to Blogatog to confirm this but my understanding from looking at the common transform cards from innistrad is that the vanilla and french vanilla transform cards are not red flagged as long as they have a consistent transform trigger.
This helps massively cut down on comprehension complexity (the ability to read/understand a card)
So this means as an example:
Villagers of Estwald would be fine under NWO. But a card like Thraben Sentry or Delver of Secrets probably warrants a red flag because them don't conform to the usual transofrm trigger used in the set.
Also something to think about is that you only got a single transform card for pack, thus mitigating some of the added complexity.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Vulshok Sorcerer falls under the "Does it have the potential to kill multiple card at once" and the "targeting/does it affect other permanents" red flags. Its the kind of card that should nearly never be at common unless for a very good reason. I really should expand the "Does it have the potential to kill multiple card at once" section as it is supposed to include cards that can kill multiple things even over time, not just all at once.
Scroll Thief is fine under NWO. Its a good common that has low complexity and is easy to understand. Its not something you want to push with evasion or a super efficient body. (eg No Thieving Magpie at common) but thats because of developmental and power level issues rather than NWO concerns.
Cards like Jeskai Sage and your example that cantrip fall under the same rule as cards like divination in that they are exempt due to not being a board affecting 2 for 1.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Cards that threaten to take the game over on their own if it goes long should never be commons.
Examples:
- Sprout Swarm, Capsize (the most extreme examples)
- Reusable token generation (Cenn's Enlistment)
- Strong card filtration engines (Merfolk Looter). Bad ones don't really generate inevitability but strong ones do.
Two mechanics in particular - Spellshapers (Waterfront Bouncer) and Retrace (Raven's Crime) would probably not be welcome at common for this reason, or at least every card with the mechanic would be redflagged.
Cards that can form loops without additional resources such as Sprout Swarm are definitely red flagged. This is included in the primer already.
However you are incorrect about Spellshapers and Retrace. The need to discard lands makes it perfectly acceptable within red flagging. (though Waterfront Bouncer would be red flagged as an on-board trick)
However looting have never and will never be red flagged, your right they do lead to inevitability but the same thing can be said of unblockable creatures or dozens of other mechanics that are integral to the game. Inevitability is a good thing that limited environments need to create fun gameplay.
Your right that super efficient looters can have power level concerns but thats got very little to do with Red Flagging.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
More concerns go into designing commons than NWO. NWO is just one tool.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
How about forcing a card like Infantry Veteran to be used before combat?
Creature -- Human Soldier (C?)
T: Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
1/1
Or in case of a potential feel-bad moment in forgetting that you have that ability until you are looking at your creatures as you are declaring attackers, maybe just forcing it before blockers are declared?
I could easily imagine the following card not being Red Flagged, because the counter acts as a memory aid and thus removes the "feel bad moments"
Pride Escort 1W
Creature -- Cat Soldier (C?)
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on another target creature you control. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
1/1
EDIT: your second ability is better as its closer in time and thus less chance of the other player forgetting but probably still borderline.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Maybe I should send Mark Rosewater an email....
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD