I made a thread about the Assemble mechanic from FutureSight last night. In retrospect, it's rather confusing and involved, and I'm not sure that it would actually work. Also, it doesn't make sense with Steamflogger Boss, which is a huge problem. So here's a much simpler idea that I had a few minutes ago. Give it a shot:
Assemble (keyword ability):
--Assemble X is an activated keyword ability, which reads: Exile up to X non-creature, non-equipment artifact cards from your graveyard: Put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of each card exiled this way.
--Contraptions are a subtype of artifact that only appear on contraption artifact tokens.
--Some CR changes are necessary to accomodate this keyword, the way Evolve was added to the CR:
701.ASM. Assemble
701.ASMa To "assemble N" means to activate any "Assemble N" ability by exiling up to N non-creature, non-equipment artifact cards from your graveyard, after which the player who activated the ability will put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of each card exiled this way.
701.ASMb A creature "assembles a Contraption" when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to assemble as described in rule 701.ASMa. Notably, a creature doesn't assemble a contraption when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to put a Contraption artifact token onto the battlefield without using the word "assemble."
Here are a few examples of Riggers that might use this mechanic and some other creature types to support it:
Production-Line Lackey (1R) Creature -- Goblin Rigger (Common)
Production-Line Lackey can't attack or block unless you control a tapped artifact.
When Production-Line Lackey dies, Assemble 1. (Exile a non-creature, non-equipment artifact card from your graveyard: Put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of the card exiled this way.)
(1/1)
Rust-pile Reclaimer (2RR) Creature -- Goblin Rigger (Uncommon) 2RR,T: Assemble 2 (Exile up to 2 non-creature, non-equipment artifact cards from your graveyard: Put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of each card exiled this way.)
Whenever Rust-pile Reclaimer deals combat damage to a player, put up to two artifact cards you own from exile into your graveyard.
(2/1)
-- "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without. Or just beat the bloody thing 'till it starts workin' right. That usually works."
--Grakk, Factory-Floor Boss"
5,T: Assemble 3 (Exile up to 3 non-creature, non-equipment artifact cards from your graveyard: Put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of each card exiled this way.)
(3/3)
These are designed to work with Steamflogger Boss in that, whenever a rigger you control would assemble an artifact, it assembles two instead. So basically, you'll follow the regular assemble process, but you get two copies of the token you would normally get. I think it works pretty nicely.
Thoughts? This seems a like a fun mechanic, and weirdly versatile~
The problem with this implementation is that the Riggers themselves don't actually assemble anything. Assemble in this context is a keyword action that the player performs, not the creature.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I'm pretty sure this sort of disambiguation falls into the realm of common sense more than good card design vs. bad card design. How often will what you're talking about ever be an issue? Will it ever be an issue? Can you think of one circumstance, outside of inventing a specific unprecedented card to illustrate your point?
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that this already works for cards that use the fight mechanic. And just look at Renegade Krasis. If Wizards agreed that this sort of thing is a problem, that card should have read "whenever you evolve Renegade Krasis...."
I'm pretty sure this sort of disambiguation falls into the realm of common sense more than good card design vs. bad card design. How often will what you're talking about ever be an issue? Will it ever be an issue? Can you think of one circumstance, outside of inventing a specific unprecedented card to illustrate your point?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Because the CR explicitly defines what it means for a creature to evolve.
I guess it would work if you defined what it means for a creature to assemble something in the hypothetical CR:
701.ASM. Assemble
701.ASMa To "assemble N" means to search your library for up to two noncreature artifact cards each with converted mana cost N or less, exile them, shuffle your library, and to put a Contraption artifact token onto the battlefield with all abilities of each card exiled this way.
701.ASMb A creature "assembles a Contraption" when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to assemble as described in rule 701.ASMa. Notably, a creature doesn't assemble a contraption when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to put a Contraption artifact token onto the battlefield without using the word "assemble."
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I attempted to provide that explanation at the beginning of the thread, but didn't do it quite right. Thanks for the help. I'll add that to the OP, and since you've pointed it out, I've fixed all the reminder text to include the library shuffle after the search and exile--very important.
"taramoor said: What are the particular issues with Steamflogger Boss' wording that make it so difficult to work with?
There are a bunch. Probably the trickiest is that it implies that creatures assemble contraptions either instead of players or in addition to players."
...The apparent meaning behind maro's statements is that creatures probably can't assemble contraptions. Hard for me to say really...
For now though, lets just assume it works and move on to acutally discussing the ability. First question, how does assemble interact with equipment?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Even if the mechanic doesn't work with equipment, its super broken by the fact that both surge node and astral cornucopia exist.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
You're right. It might need an adjustment to say "converted mana cost of X" instead of "X or less" to prevent weird shenanigans with that and other cards like Chalice of The Void.
EDIT: Alternatively--and this seems like the better option--I could just change it from "all abilities" to "all activated abilities." I also wouldn't have to pigeonhole it with the "non-creature" stipulation anymore.
EDIT: Alternatively--and this seems like the better option--I could just change it from "all abilities" to "all activated abilities." I also wouldn't have to pigeonhole it with the "non-creature" stipulation anymore.
That implementiaon would fix some of the broken interactions, but at a mere 2 mana, you still have both coretapper and culling dais. These two artifacts together will let you draw an absurd amount of cards for almost no investment. This interaction isn't neccesarily broken, but it does mean that assemble 2 should never happen before turn 4.
And equipment definitely doesn't work with your ability, right?
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
And equipment definitely doesn't work with your ability, right?
I see your point. Shuko with anything else is an instant-equip. Worse, pile effects onto one equipment and equip it for the cheaper cost. Should I add a non-equipment stipulation instead of a non-creature stipulation?
And equipment definitely doesn't work with your ability, right?
I see your point. Shuko with anything else is an instant-equip. Worse, pile effects onto one equipment and equip it for the cheaper cost. Should I add a non-equipment stipulation instead of a non-creature stipulation?
No stipulation is needed. The rules for equipment say that only equipment can be equipped. Since Assemble only copies abilities, the contraption isn't an equipment, meaning it can't be equipped regardless of what abilities it has. My only question was whether you want the ability to work with equipment, because as is, it does not...
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I've added the equipment stipulation because it'll just be confusing for players to have non-equipment artifacts with Equip, and living weapons only make this problem worse. Thanks for bring this to my attention.
EDIT: Adjusted some costs. 1R was too little for a really bad 1/1 and the two best 1-drop artifacts in your deck going straight to the battlefield (a'la trinket mage.)
So.... I'm still not sure I like the ability. First off, it shuffles. Shuffling sucks. Second off, its a card advantage mechanic so it has to be very expensive. Third, its bound to be dead in limited. Fourth, its very complicated and probably isn't appropriate in anything other than supplemental product. Fifth, combining magic cards is dangerous. Every card I'm aware of that allows you to combine the abilities of multiple cards onto one card is broken. That said, it definitely nails the flavor of assembling a contraption
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'll respond to each point individually:
-First, it does shuffle. That is annoying, although no worse than fetch lands. Perhaps I'll have to be weary of cards that let you assemble every turn.
-Second, that's true. It provides card advantage, and worse, it tutors. Perhaps I'll have to do something like limit it to the top several cards of the library, or exile the cards from a different zone (the player's hand for instance, which would probably be far more reasonable).
-Third, that depends heavily on the environment and the final implementation. Would you say Tempered Steel was dead in limited? I can tell you it most certainly would have been in Theros. I don't know why you'd assume a mechanic like this would show up anywhere outside of an artifact-heavy block.
-Fourth, I'm pretty sure that if they can get away with Bestow, this shouldn't be too difficult to understand.
-Fifth, drawing cards is dangerous. Tutoring lands is dangerous. Reanimation is dangerous. It all depends on the final implementation and the cards that it's interacting with. Dread Return would do very little for modern without Dredge, for example.
-I'm glad you think this works flavor-wise. Unfortunately, that was probably about the easiest part of this process.
-Third, that depends heavily on the environment and the final implementation. Would you say Tempered Steel was dead in limited? I can tell you it most certainly would have been in Theros. I don't know why you'd assume a mechanic like this would show up anywhere outside of an artifact-heavy block.
I am assuming it will be in an artifact block, I just don't think its likely that I would be including mulitple ultra low cmc artifacts to take advantage of low number assembles. Plus, you are pushing complexity again because your set will require a very high number of artifacts with activated abilities (activated abilities are very complicated.)
-Fourth, I'm pretty sure that if they can get away with Bestow, this shouldn't be too difficult to understand.
Be honset, Assemble is quite alot more complicated than bestow (a mechanic which pushed NWO)
-Fifth, drawing cards is dangerous. Tutoring lands is dangerous. Reanimation is dangerous. It all depends on the final implementation and the cards that it's interacting with. Dread Return would do very little for modern without Dredge, for example.
When I say dangerous, I mean that it is potentially degenerate. There is a long history of non-degenerate draw spells. There is a long history of non-degenerate reanimation spells. But combining activated abilities of different creatures has no such long history. The only cards I'm familiar with are experiment Kraj and Necrotic ooze who are exclusively used for infinite combo. Basically, it took me all of 2 seconds to break your original implementation. And even though your newer implementations are harder to break, they still feel broken to me which means there is probably a degenerate combo that I haven't seen yet.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I'm very carefully considering changing the mechanic to:
Assemble X (Exile up to X artifact cards from between your hand and graveyard, then put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield.)
Seems simpler, drops the shuffle, drops the tutor, drops the specific CMCs... What do you think?
That would be horribly broken.... Adding CMC check might fix it....
Assemble X (Exile up to X artifact cards with converted mana cost X or less from your hand or graveyard, then put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield.)
....Now you run into flavor problems though becuase you will often be making 1 artifact contraptions. (Note that even this version is letting you free cast spells and so must be very carefully costed. Assemble 2 needs to cost at least an additional 2-3 mana.)
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I considered that exact thing, but it still has the specific low CMC issue. I think the right way to take this is away from the tactical, "how can I break this" area and into the "limit by randomization" territory:
Assemble X (Look at the top X cards of your library, then exile any number of non-equipment artifact cards from among them. If you do, put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield.)
How's that? Not guaranteed to give you exactly what you want, scales up with assemble variable without making assemble 1 completely useless... what's the verdict on this incarnation?
Assemble X (Reveal the top X cards of your library, then exile any number of artifact cards from among them. If you do, put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield. Put all other revealed cards on the bottom of your library in any order.)
Since its random, we don't need to care about cmc. The real problem I see with the ability now is that supporting it requires printing lots of artifacts with activated abilities at low rarities. Activated abilities are complicated, so such a format would be very complicated, probably breaking NWO.
You also run into a flavor problem in that you will often be assembling contraptions from a single artifact.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
That wording is probably a bit better. As for your concern about a narrow limited environment, I could just change it back to "all abilities," since we're not so worried about tutoring up game-winning combos anymore.
Assemble X (Reveal the top X cards of your library, then exile any number of non-creature artifact cards from among them. If you do, put a Contraption artifact token with all abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield. Put all other cards revealed this way into your graveyard.)
I put the non-creature stipulation in there because we don't need non-creature Contraptions with First Strike, and put the rest into the graveyard instead of the bottom of the library to add a little bit of reach to the mechanic (there are some weird red cards like Slag Fiend out there that support red artifact dredge, not that it'll ever be a thing) Any more suggestions?
Well, its not my cup of tea, but it doesn't look busted either. If you ever get around to play testing it, let me know how it goes...
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Assemble (keyword ability):
--Assemble X is an activated keyword ability, which reads: Exile up to X non-creature, non-equipment artifact cards from your graveyard: Put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of each card exiled this way.
--Contraptions are a subtype of artifact that only appear on contraption artifact tokens.
--Some CR changes are necessary to accomodate this keyword, the way Evolve was added to the CR:
701.ASMa To "assemble N" means to activate any "Assemble N" ability by exiling up to N non-creature, non-equipment artifact cards from your graveyard, after which the player who activated the ability will put a Contraption artifact token into play with all abilities of each card exiled this way.
701.ASMb A creature "assembles a Contraption" when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to assemble as described in rule 701.ASMa. Notably, a creature doesn't assemble a contraption when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to put a Contraption artifact token onto the battlefield without using the word "assemble."
Here are a few examples of Riggers that might use this mechanic and some other creature types to support it:
These are designed to work with Steamflogger Boss in that, whenever a rigger you control would assemble an artifact, it assembles two instead. So basically, you'll follow the regular assemble process, but you get two copies of the token you would normally get. I think it works pretty nicely.
Thoughts? This seems a like a fun mechanic, and weirdly versatile~
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that this already works for cards that use the fight mechanic. And just look at Renegade Krasis. If Wizards agreed that this sort of thing is a problem, that card should have read "whenever you evolve Renegade Krasis...."
steamflogger boss
- Manite
Because the CR explicitly defines what it means for a creature to evolve.
I guess it would work if you defined what it means for a creature to assemble something in the hypothetical CR:
701.ASM. Assemble
701.ASMa To "assemble N" means to search your library for up to two noncreature artifact cards each with converted mana cost N or less, exile them, shuffle your library, and to put a Contraption artifact token onto the battlefield with all abilities of each card exiled this way.
701.ASMb A creature "assembles a Contraption" when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to assemble as described in rule 701.ASMa. Notably, a creature doesn't assemble a contraption when the resolution of one of its abilities causes you to put a Contraption artifact token onto the battlefield without using the word "assemble."
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Thank you.
Couldn't tell you other than to quote maro...
"taramoor said: What are the particular issues with Steamflogger Boss' wording that make it so difficult to work with?
There are a bunch. Probably the trickiest is that it implies that creatures assemble contraptions either instead of players or in addition to players."
...The apparent meaning behind maro's statements is that creatures probably can't assemble contraptions. Hard for me to say really...
For now though, lets just assume it works and move on to acutally discussing the ability. First question, how does assemble interact with equipment?
- Manite
- Manite
EDIT: Alternatively--and this seems like the better option--I could just change it from "all abilities" to "all activated abilities." I also wouldn't have to pigeonhole it with the "non-creature" stipulation anymore.
That implementiaon would fix some of the broken interactions, but at a mere 2 mana, you still have both coretapper and culling dais. These two artifacts together will let you draw an absurd amount of cards for almost no investment. This interaction isn't neccesarily broken, but it does mean that assemble 2 should never happen before turn 4.
And equipment definitely doesn't work with your ability, right?
- Manite
No stipulation is needed. The rules for equipment say that only equipment can be equipped. Since Assemble only copies abilities, the contraption isn't an equipment, meaning it can't be equipped regardless of what abilities it has. My only question was whether you want the ability to work with equipment, because as is, it does not...
- Manite
EDIT: Adjusted some costs. 1R was too little for a really bad 1/1 and the two best 1-drop artifacts in your deck going straight to the battlefield (a'la trinket mage.)
- Manite
-First, it does shuffle. That is annoying, although no worse than fetch lands. Perhaps I'll have to be weary of cards that let you assemble every turn.
-Second, that's true. It provides card advantage, and worse, it tutors. Perhaps I'll have to do something like limit it to the top several cards of the library, or exile the cards from a different zone (the player's hand for instance, which would probably be far more reasonable).
-Third, that depends heavily on the environment and the final implementation. Would you say Tempered Steel was dead in limited? I can tell you it most certainly would have been in Theros. I don't know why you'd assume a mechanic like this would show up anywhere outside of an artifact-heavy block.
-Fourth, I'm pretty sure that if they can get away with Bestow, this shouldn't be too difficult to understand.
-Fifth, drawing cards is dangerous. Tutoring lands is dangerous. Reanimation is dangerous. It all depends on the final implementation and the cards that it's interacting with. Dread Return would do very little for modern without Dredge, for example.
-I'm glad you think this works flavor-wise. Unfortunately, that was probably about the easiest part of this process.
Be honset, Assemble is quite alot more complicated than bestow (a mechanic which pushed NWO)
When I say dangerous, I mean that it is potentially degenerate. There is a long history of non-degenerate draw spells. There is a long history of non-degenerate reanimation spells. But combining activated abilities of different creatures has no such long history. The only cards I'm familiar with are experiment Kraj and Necrotic ooze who are exclusively used for infinite combo. Basically, it took me all of 2 seconds to break your original implementation. And even though your newer implementations are harder to break, they still feel broken to me which means there is probably a degenerate combo that I haven't seen yet.
- Manite
Assemble X (Exile up to X artifact cards from between your hand and graveyard, then put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield.)
Seems simpler, drops the shuffle, drops the tutor, drops the specific CMCs... What do you think?
Assemble X (Exile up to X artifact cards with converted mana cost X or less from your hand or graveyard, then put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield.)
....Now you run into flavor problems though becuase you will often be making 1 artifact contraptions. (Note that even this version is letting you free cast spells and so must be very carefully costed. Assemble 2 needs to cost at least an additional 2-3 mana.)
- Manite
Assemble X (Look at the top X cards of your library, then exile any number of non-equipment artifact cards from among them. If you do, put a Contraption artifact token with all activated abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield.)
How's that? Not guaranteed to give you exactly what you want, scales up with assemble variable without making assemble 1 completely useless... what's the verdict on this incarnation?
Since its random, we don't need to care about cmc. The real problem I see with the ability now is that supporting it requires printing lots of artifacts with activated abilities at low rarities. Activated abilities are complicated, so such a format would be very complicated, probably breaking NWO.
You also run into a flavor problem in that you will often be assembling contraptions from a single artifact.
- Manite
Assemble X (Reveal the top X cards of your library, then exile any number of non-creature artifact cards from among them. If you do, put a Contraption artifact token with all abilities of each card exiled this way onto the battlefield. Put all other cards revealed this way into your graveyard.)
I put the non-creature stipulation in there because we don't need non-creature Contraptions with First Strike, and put the rest into the graveyard instead of the bottom of the library to add a little bit of reach to the mechanic (there are some weird red cards like Slag Fiend out there that support red artifact dredge, not that it'll ever be a thing) Any more suggestions?
- Manite