A player declares an attacker, and after 2 turns, it attacks, it cant attack for 2 turns after it is declared as an attacker, and it "must" attack after that.
So actual combat is delayed by 2 turns.
A 3/3 wants to attack, it is declared as an attacker, becomes tapped, but then does not attack anymore (so it cant be blocked right away) , it will stay tapped for 3 turns, and only "attack" in the 3rd turn.
I thought of using counters for that on creatures, but wordings i had were quite long.
Extended Combat WRU
Enchantment
Whenever a creature is declared as an attacker, remove it from combat and it doesnt untap during your untap step, until the third combat phase after this one. (The creature is still attacking until the 3rd combat phase)
Quite difficult, even as its idea is a basic one ^^ , delay combat in 3 combat phases (so the opponent has more time to react and prevent a lot of damage).
Whenever a creature attacks, remove it from combat, tap it, and put three delay counters on it. It gains "This creature can't attack", "This creature doesn't untap during your untap step", and "At the beginning of the declare attackers step on your turn, remove a delay counter from this creature, then if it doesn't have a delay counter on it, it becomes attacking" for as long as it has a delay counter on it.
That's an interesting concept, and I imagine it being blue time-slowing magic that is essentially liked an updated phasing. Your wording won't work as [a] the creature won't untap, [b] declaring it as an attacker will simply re-trigger the ability, thus resulting in no attacks at all, and [c] the reminder text is actually proper rules text that isn't implicit, therefore [c.i] creatures can't be considered attacking outside of combat.
I'm curious as to why you want it to take three combat steps to attack? Why not just the next one? That'd be easier to word, and makes probably more sense game-wise. Here's my attempt at wording with that revision:
"Whenever a creature attacks, if it doesn't have a time counter on it, tap it and remove it from combat, then put a time counter on it. Otherwise, if it does have a time counter on it, remove that counter from it."
So, not too wordy, and maybe not as sleek as intended, but it does the job well enough. The other idea I had was that instead of attacking again, it could just deal damage equal to its power to the defending player, however that would take the fun away from slowing down creatures only to have their damage be inevitable.
Finally, this enchantment isn't red at all as it slows the game down. Is very flavourful as U as it's very timey wimey. Could have some W in there, but doesn't need it. It would have to cost about 3UU though at the least.
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
I'll be honest... I don't think it's worth trying to untangle this. In fact, if a card needs really complicated wording, it's a big flashing warning sign that the card is too complex. But this card is in a really awful place besides that, because it has memory issues coming out the ears. The idea being expressed is not simple at all... it's complicated, memory-heavy, and the resulting strange wording is a symptom of that.
Take this one back to the drawing board and try to come up with something that doesn't require asking this question.
The thing is, playing with a "proxy" of this card even in EDH, its not complicated at all, ignoring the "rulez" side to write it in text form.
Everyone pretty easily gets the idea that the combat is delayed by 2 turns, creatures simply "keeps" attacking and needs 2 turns to reach the opponent.
It just turns out that the text is complicated, using "counters" on creatures and all that is pretty text heavy.
A super quick thing was this:
Extended Combat :symw::symr::symu:
Enchantment
Combat is delayed by 2 turns.
Something like that, and give it a rulez entry, or a big reminder text, kinda like Mind Slaver has a ton of text, while playing the card isnt difficult, the rulez text is gigantic.
Sure it doesnt have to be delayed by 2 turns, 1 might be enough aswell.
The big rulez thing here would be to "keep" the creatures attacking, combat in terms of this card should really be slowed down, it takes the creature longer to reach combat, by that the number of "turns" doesnt matter, but the combat phases (in case you get 2, thats enough).
Also a pretty important part of the idea, you should not be able to "stop" the creature from attacking. If you declare it as an attacker, it will be "attacking" the next turn aswell, as for the creature its 1 combat.
The basic idea isnt "too" complicated, but as it stands, the rules text is so complicated that the card requires some changing.
As writen out it was like this:
Extended Combat :symw::symr::symu:
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks without a war counter on it, remove it from combat and put three war counters on it. It is still considered attacking, but can't be blocked and deals no combat damage. It wont untap and becomes attacking during its controllers combat phase as long as it has a war counter on it. At the end of each combat phase, remove a war counter from that creature.
Something like that, which is "insane", while the idea is actual "delay combat by 2 combat phases" which is much much less text (but would require a rules entry for what "delay combat" actual means).
Just put a silver border around it and call it a day.
Many un-cards were just things that couldn't be done easily in black border magic. I'm sure you could find a way for it to work, but if everyone understands what's going on why not just forget about the rules?
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Ok, most of that is just outright wrong and/or poorly conceived. But the simple answer here, if you want to satisfy all the conditions outlined up there, you basically only have one option: Silver-bordered land, where the rules mean nothing and the points don't matter. Just write whatever you like on the card and explain to your playgroup what that means, if they have the patience to listen. But there is no way to accomplish what you want within the actual game rules, and even if it could, the card would still be... horrid to deal with due to many, many strange interactions with existing cards, in addition to the awful memory issues. (In fact, those errors persist in silver-bordered land anyway, which really only makes it worse.)
What you say isnt wrong, but for my taste its important to tap into the more complicated ideas and just see how they unfold.
What i asked for was to get some people into thinking, maybe someone would come up with a great wording that saves text.
Best example for silver to real world magic is Mindslaver.
It was supposed to be a Un-card , and the effect clearly is "Take control of target players turn." ; but magic managed to build its rules around it, and the required text is short, while the rules behind that are huge and its done on just a tiny bit of cards, as its such an extreme effect.
Basically what you wanted (albeit with some additional interaction with Time Spiral block cards).
RiftwarWUR
Enchantment
Whenever a creature without suspend attacks, exile it with two time counters and it gains suspend.
Creatures with suspend must attack each turn if able.
At the end of each player's turn, all creatures lose suspend.
Extended CombatWRU
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, exile it with two delay counters on it.
At the beginning of each player's declare attackers step, that player removes a delay counter from each card he or she owns exiled with ~. If a creature card has no delay counters on it, put it onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.
Extended Combat :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Creatures attack each turn if able.
Whenever a creature attacks if it wasnโt cast from exile this turn, exile it with three time counters on it. If it doesnโt have suspend, it gains suspend.
I'd just like to point out that none of these satisfy OP's ridiculous requirements, which include the creature being simultaneously attacking and not attacking, and being on the battlefield until it ticks down, at which point it has to attack.
True , but the design in the OP was admittedly flawed and was built on the premise of:
Quite difficult, even as its idea is a basic one ^^ , delay combat in 3 combat phases (so the opponent has more time to react and prevent a lot of damage).
Battle Across the World
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, if it doesn't have a traveling counter on it, put a traveling counter on it and remove it from combat.
Creatures with traveling counters on them attack each turn if able.
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I'd just like to point out that none of these satisfy OP's ridiculous requirements, which include the creature being simultaneously attacking and not attacking, and being on the battlefield until it ticks down, at which point it has to attack.
The attacking without attacking part is nonsense, and I assume he only wanted the creature to stay in play in order to satisfy that 'frozen in combat' flavor.
I think mine captures the feel of a creature vanishing from combat only to reappear mid-attack two turns later.
foo_intherain's template seems like a very simple solution.
Creature is "attacking" till the next combat phase, and only then, carries over to blockers.
The basic thing is to have a creature take 2 combat phases to pass the declare attacker phase, thats not too complicated by that, but it produces some problems as the rules right now, do not allow a creature to be attacking, outside of combat (which this necessary requires if you stretch combat in that way).
The thing with exiling the card is that the creature is in fact away, not attacking anymore, its gone.
In playtesting the card itself (from a perspective of the mechanic) it does a pretty decent job at preventing damage and spells that target "attacking" creatures get much more flexible.
Workarounds that actual avoid making it a "stretched" declare attackers phase work, but produce a different card, with much different abuses.
For example, if you can use the card to "slide" a creature over and over, to get Enters the battlefield effects, it becomes something that can backfire and has a totally different focus.
Sure its complicated, hence the name of this thread.
With the idea of "phasing" the creature something like this works:
Phase War :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, exile it with a war counter on it.
At the beginning of each players attack step, return all creatures with a war counter to the battlefield tapped and attacking.
Kinda works, but it has a different focus, still nice, and still uses quite a lot of text.
Another approach:
Extended Combat :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Creatures require 2 consequential attack phases to be declared as attackers.
Here the thing is, its really complicated, avoids the use of counters, which is ugly to play with and it will prevent the creature from attacking, and you can choose to "stop" attacking, not exactly what this wanted to be.
The effect clearly is complicated to express in text form, while really everyone gets the idea of it quickly (creature simply takes 2 combats to attack, only then can be blocked and deal damage, for the time it will be considered attacking for spells that can only target attacking stuff).
Maybe that requires something like a keyword, so its easier to make exceptions for this in the rules, kinda like a haste allows to ignore summing sickness.
Kinda like this:
[Distraction]
Creatures with [Distraction] can't be blocked and deal no combat damage while attacking.
Its not a clever keyword, as the creature pretty much attacks just for an effect, some ninjas or anything like that.
So with this keyword the card could look like this:
Extended Combat :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, it gets [distraction] until end of turn and becomes attacking during the next combat.
Keep an eye for the part were the creature simply is "attacking" in the next combat, this wont trigger the effect again, and it will deal damage and can be blocked.
This is damn near the card i wanted, the use of the keyword makes it use much less text, which is a nice thing.
Rules wise, its not that easy to make the creature "attack" even during the opponents turn, to fully express the stretched combat phase even over several turns and other phases.
A player declares an attacker, and after 2 turns, it attacks, it cant attack for 2 turns after it is declared as an attacker, and it "must" attack after that.
So actual combat is delayed by 2 turns.
A 3/3 wants to attack, it is declared as an attacker, becomes tapped, but then does not attack anymore (so it cant be blocked right away) , it will stay tapped for 3 turns, and only "attack" in the 3rd turn.
I thought of using counters for that on creatures, but wordings i had were quite long.
Extended Combat WRU
Enchantment
Whenever a creature is declared as an attacker, remove it from combat and it doesnt untap during your untap step, until the third combat phase after this one. (The creature is still attacking until the 3rd combat phase)
Quite difficult, even as its idea is a basic one ^^ , delay combat in 3 combat phases (so the opponent has more time to react and prevent a lot of damage).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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Overworld โ Pirates vs. Octopuses
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Shandalar โ The Mana Set
Iamur Reimagined โ Iamur v2
You can find more creative projects on my page Antaresdesigns!
I'm curious as to why you want it to take three combat steps to attack? Why not just the next one? That'd be easier to word, and makes probably more sense game-wise. Here's my attempt at wording with that revision:
"Whenever a creature attacks, if it doesn't have a time counter on it, tap it and remove it from combat, then put a time counter on it. Otherwise, if it does have a time counter on it, remove that counter from it."
So, not too wordy, and maybe not as sleek as intended, but it does the job well enough. The other idea I had was that instead of attacking again, it could just deal damage equal to its power to the defending player, however that would take the fun away from slowing down creatures only to have their damage be inevitable.
Finally, this enchantment isn't red at all as it slows the game down. Is very flavourful as U as it's very timey wimey. Could have some W in there, but doesn't need it. It would have to cost about 3UU though at the least.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
The thing is, playing with a "proxy" of this card even in EDH, its not complicated at all, ignoring the "rulez" side to write it in text form.
Everyone pretty easily gets the idea that the combat is delayed by 2 turns, creatures simply "keeps" attacking and needs 2 turns to reach the opponent.
It just turns out that the text is complicated, using "counters" on creatures and all that is pretty text heavy.
A super quick thing was this:
Extended Combat :symw::symr::symu:
Enchantment
Combat is delayed by 2 turns.
Something like that, and give it a rulez entry, or a big reminder text, kinda like Mind Slaver has a ton of text, while playing the card isnt difficult, the rulez text is gigantic.
Sure it doesnt have to be delayed by 2 turns, 1 might be enough aswell.
The big rulez thing here would be to "keep" the creatures attacking, combat in terms of this card should really be slowed down, it takes the creature longer to reach combat, by that the number of "turns" doesnt matter, but the combat phases (in case you get 2, thats enough).
Also a pretty important part of the idea, you should not be able to "stop" the creature from attacking. If you declare it as an attacker, it will be "attacking" the next turn aswell, as for the creature its 1 combat.
The basic idea isnt "too" complicated, but as it stands, the rules text is so complicated that the card requires some changing.
As writen out it was like this:
Extended Combat :symw::symr::symu:
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks without a war counter on it, remove it from combat and put three war counters on it. It is still considered attacking, but can't be blocked and deals no combat damage. It wont untap and becomes attacking during its controllers combat phase as long as it has a war counter on it. At the end of each combat phase, remove a war counter from that creature.
Something like that, which is "insane", while the idea is actual "delay combat by 2 combat phases" which is much much less text (but would require a rules entry for what "delay combat" actual means).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
Many un-cards were just things that couldn't be done easily in black border magic. I'm sure you could find a way for it to work, but if everyone understands what's going on why not just forget about the rules?
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
What you say isnt wrong, but for my taste its important to tap into the more complicated ideas and just see how they unfold.
What i asked for was to get some people into thinking, maybe someone would come up with a great wording that saves text.
Best example for silver to real world magic is Mindslaver.
It was supposed to be a Un-card , and the effect clearly is "Take control of target players turn." ; but magic managed to build its rules around it, and the required text is short, while the rules behind that are huge and its done on just a tiny bit of cards, as its such an extreme effect.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ
Riftwar WUR
Enchantment
Whenever a creature without suspend attacks, exile it with two time counters and it gains suspend.
Creatures with suspend must attack each turn if able.
At the end of each player's turn, all creatures lose suspend.
Still pretty heinous.
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, exile it with two delay counters on it.
At the beginning of each player's declare attackers step, that player removes a delay counter from each card he or she owns exiled with ~. If a creature card has no delay counters on it, put it onto the battlefield tapped and attacking.
Enchantment
Creatures attack each turn if able.
Whenever a creature attacks if it wasnโt cast from exile this turn, exile it with three time counters on it. If it doesnโt have suspend, it gains suspend.
Avalon: The Legend Begins :: Pirate Set :: Babel: The รther Wars
Favorite Magic Card: Fowl Play
[Primer] [Barrin's Tome]: A Master Wizard's Spellbook.
True , but the design in the OP was admittedly flawed and was built on the premise of:
Avalon: The Legend Begins :: Pirate Set :: Babel: The รther Wars
Favorite Magic Card: Fowl Play
[Primer] [Barrin's Tome]: A Master Wizard's Spellbook.
Here's what we ended up with:
Battle Across the World
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, if it doesn't have a traveling counter on it, put a traveling counter on it and remove it from combat.
Creatures with traveling counters on them attack each turn if able.
I think mine captures the feel of a creature vanishing from combat only to reappear mid-attack two turns later.
foo_intherain's template seems like a very simple solution.
Creature is "attacking" till the next combat phase, and only then, carries over to blockers.
The basic thing is to have a creature take 2 combat phases to pass the declare attacker phase, thats not too complicated by that, but it produces some problems as the rules right now, do not allow a creature to be attacking, outside of combat (which this necessary requires if you stretch combat in that way).
The thing with exiling the card is that the creature is in fact away, not attacking anymore, its gone.
In playtesting the card itself (from a perspective of the mechanic) it does a pretty decent job at preventing damage and spells that target "attacking" creatures get much more flexible.
Workarounds that actual avoid making it a "stretched" declare attackers phase work, but produce a different card, with much different abuses.
For example, if you can use the card to "slide" a creature over and over, to get Enters the battlefield effects, it becomes something that can backfire and has a totally different focus.
Sure its complicated, hence the name of this thread.
With the idea of "phasing" the creature something like this works:
Phase War :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, exile it with a war counter on it.
At the beginning of each players attack step, return all creatures with a war counter to the battlefield tapped and attacking.
Kinda works, but it has a different focus, still nice, and still uses quite a lot of text.
Another approach:
Extended Combat :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Creatures require 2 consequential attack phases to be declared as attackers.
Here the thing is, its really complicated, avoids the use of counters, which is ugly to play with and it will prevent the creature from attacking, and you can choose to "stop" attacking, not exactly what this wanted to be.
The effect clearly is complicated to express in text form, while really everyone gets the idea of it quickly (creature simply takes 2 combats to attack, only then can be blocked and deal damage, for the time it will be considered attacking for spells that can only target attacking stuff).
Maybe that requires something like a keyword, so its easier to make exceptions for this in the rules, kinda like a haste allows to ignore summing sickness.
Kinda like this:
[Distraction]
Creatures with [Distraction] can't be blocked and deal no combat damage while attacking.
Its not a clever keyword, as the creature pretty much attacks just for an effect, some ninjas or anything like that.
So with this keyword the card could look like this:
Extended Combat :symr::symw::symu:
Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks, it gets [distraction] until end of turn and becomes attacking during the next combat.
Keep an eye for the part were the creature simply is "attacking" in the next combat, this wont trigger the effect again, and it will deal damage and can be blocked.
This is damn near the card i wanted, the use of the keyword makes it use much less text, which is a nice thing.
Rules wise, its not that easy to make the creature "attack" even during the opponents turn, to fully express the stretched combat phase even over several turns and other phases.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ #BlueLivesMatter ๐ฎ๐ฎ๐ฎ