Isperia's First Decree - :2mana::symwu::symwu:
Sorcery (R)
Exile all token creatures.
Devil's Night - :1mana::symbr::symbr:
Sorcery (R)
Creatures you control get +2/+2 and gain intimidate until end of turn.
Grave Consumption - :3mana::symbg::symbg::symbg:
Sorcery (R)
Exile all creature cards in your graveyard. Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control for each card exiled in this way.
Thought Duplicator - :3mana::symur::symur:
Enchantment (R)
:symur:, Discard a card: Pay target instant or sorcery spell's mana cost. If you do, copy that spell and play it.
Spawn From Strength - :2mana::symgw::symgw:
Sorcery (R)
Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play for each +1/+1 counter on creatures you control.
----
Bonus:
Renewing Spirit - G
Creature -- Spirit (C)
When Renewing Spirit comes into play, return a land you control to its owner's hand.
2/2
Grave Consumption - :3mana::symbg::symbg::symbg:
Sorcery (R)
Exile all creature cards in your graveyard. Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control for each card exiled in this way.
Doesn't work well with Scavenge, as they fight for the same resources. But seems decently costed.
Thought Duplicator - :3mana::symur::symur:
Enchantment (R)
:symur:, Discard a card: Pay target instant or sorcery spell's mana cost. If you do, copy that spell and play it.
This is overly complicated.
Maybe X(R/U), discard a card: Copy target instant or sorcery with converted mana cost X.
Spawn From Strength - :2mana::symgw::symgw:
Sorcery (R)
Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play for each +1/+1 counter on creatures you control.
Seems a tad weak. Lots of working around putting +1/+1 counters, so I can get a few saprolings. Also, I hate putting +1/+1 counters on tokens!!!
I don't know if Renewing Spirit would or should see play over Quirion Ranger, but I wanted to present it as an alternative.
White has gotten anti-token cards before. (Dogged Hunter) The card makes sense in blue because functionally it's the same thing as "Return all token creatures to their owners' hands." It makes sense in the Azorius guild because the authoritarian Azorius would definitely prohibit unchecked masses of creatures as they would be a threat to their governance.
Izzet would not intentionally destroy the tokens, they would experiment on them (which may destroy them, but not intentionally).
White has gotten anti-token cards before. (Dogged Hunter) The card makes sense in blue because functionally it's the same thing as "Return all token creatures to their owners' hands." It makes sense in the Azorius guild because the authoritarian Azorius would definitely prohibit unchecked masses of creatures as they would be a threat to their governance.
Please, don't use cards from 1960 as example. Dogger Hunter is old as hell.
Saying it makes sense in blue is like saying Evacuation and Day of Judgment are the same card, which isn't true. Also, Azorius prohibits pretty much everything that would possibly jeopardize their governance - tokens, nontokens, big critters, etc.
The closest and more recent anti-token card we have is Æther Snap, which is black. Egocentrism is a black trait - and tokens are, by definition, without identity.
Izzet would not intentionally destroy the tokens, they would experiment on them (which may destroy them, but not intentionally).
I mentioned (U/R) because, as B neighbours, the Izzet are an egocentric guild. They value individuality above everything else, and, as I mentioned, tokens lack identity and creativity.
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AEther Snap is only two blocks after Odyssey...they're both isolated instances of anti-token cards, and it's not clear if AEther Snap was meant to take anti-token away from white or merely add it to another color. Since white gets "Exile all creatures" and "Destroy all non-token creatures", it would also follow that it could get "Exile all token creatures".
Evacuation and Day of Judgment aren't the same because they affect non-token creatures, too.
AEther Snap is only two blocks after Odyssey...they're both isolated instances of anti-token cards, and it's not clear if AEther Snap was meant to take anti-token away from white or merely add it to another color.
Yes, AEther Snap is also old as hell, but the way I see it, fits modern design philosophy (which got a major revamp since 8th edition).
White destroying tokens because it's removal avoids tokens is like green destroying creatures because it's removal avoids creatures.
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Isperia's First Decree bothers me too, to be honest. White could do it, but probably wouldn't. Blue can't do it, but can do something that would lead to the same result. All in all, not a great fit.
Devil's Night - Mass pump is far more than :symrb:. I can't think of a lot of black or red spells that give your army +2/+2 until end of turn. Perhaps :symgw:, +2/+2 and vigilance until end of turn.
Grave Consumption is great! No idea on the power level, but could easily be adjusted via mana cost after testing.
My first thought was that Sigismond0's train of thought was similar to mine:
1) Wait, blue doesn't exile creatures.
2) Oh, blue returns things to hand, and in the case of tokens, that exiles them. It's okay after all!
If that's the case, perhaps he just didn't go far enough.
3) Yeah, but then why not give red "destroy target creature", since it does that all the time. Red can destroy creatures, but doesn't get "destroy target creature". Blue can exile token creatures, but doesn't get "exile all token creatures".
But perhaps it's brilliant in a way we haven't noticed yet.
I'll send Sigismond0 a PM and ask him to drop by
But you're missing something key in your analogy of red creature destruction--red doesn't have anything functionally identical to "destroy target creature", it just gets burn effects that tend to act the same way. In the case of tokens, exile and bounce are functionally identical, barring something weird like a when this is returned to a player's hand trigger which doesn't exist to my knowledge.
The way I see it is as follows:
Blue could easily get a spell that bounces all tokens.
White could easily get a spell that destroys all tokens.
Both of these spells would have a functional effect of "exile all creature tokens", so bam you've got a card!
A hypothetical RW hybrid version of this would be a no-go, because even though red can theoretically burn all of the tokens to death with a pyroclasm, there are still big loopholes like 3 toughness, absorb, damage prevention creatures, protection, etc that prevent red from having a true universal board wipe.
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But you're missing something key in your analogy of red creature destruction--red doesn't have anything functionally identical to "destroy target creature", it just gets burn effects that tend to act the same way.
I don't think I was missing that. In fact, that's exactly what I said in "3". Right?
In the case of tokens, exile and bounce are functionally identical, barring something weird like a when this is returned to a player's hand trigger which doesn't exist to my knowledge.
White could easily get a spell that destroys all tokens.
How do you figure? White (along with Green) is basically the token creating and boosting colour, right down to stuff like Hour of Reckoning. "Destroy/exile all token creatures" isn't white, as far as I know.
even though red can theoretically burn all of the tokens to death with a pyroclasm, there are still big loopholes like 3 toughness...
There are red spells that deal more than 2 damage, like Blasphemous Act and Slagstorm.
You're right that red can't "destroy/exile all token creatures", but it isn't because red is limited to dealing 2 damage.
No offense meant, just replying in honesty. If I misunderstood you, please explain.
Flavorfully (like if magic were a real thing) Tokens are IDENTICAL to normal creature cards, but functionally and mechanically are different, because that's the only way our game can work. (ie. Risen Sanctuary is the same as the token created by Grove of the Guardian in magic-land) White gets wrath effects, this is a wrath effect. Flavorfully, blue shouldn't be able to exile creatures anywhere, but mechanically, it works, because getting a token off the battlefield in any way is the same as exiling it for all intensive purposes (Aethermage's aside).
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Fair enough, but I think that's a pretty small selection of cards. Probably not enough to say there's a real difference between boucing and exiling all tokens.
How do you figure? White (along with Green) is basically the token creating and boosting colour, right down to stuff like Hour of Reckoning. "Destroy/exile all token creatures" isn't white, as far as I know.
Just because it doesn't exist in white doesn't mean it's not a white effect. "Destroy all nontoken creatures" wasn't a white effect until it was printed on a white card, and now it's just another in white's suite of asymmetrical-sweepers-even-though-white's-sweepers-are-suppsed-to-be-symetrical. Aether Snap is the only card with the effect so far, but that was kind of a weird one-off and really feels like it should have been UB anyway. (Edit: Ghostway and the 6 mana targeted Ghostway do have this effect in white.)
Definitely, because neither red nor white can "destroy/exile all token creatures".
By that logic, no color but black can...
There are red spells that deal more than 2 damage, like Blasphemous Act and Slagstorm.
You're right that red can't "destroy/exile all token creatures", but it isn't because red is limited to dealing 2 damage.
Pyroclasm was just the example, I'm aware of there being other cards that do more damage.
Now back to the card!
It seems like we're agreed on blue having "exile all creature tokens" is an okay card, correct? The only real point of contention is whether the effect could be white. I believe it's a more whit effect than it is a black effect due to it being an exile spell rather than destroy, and the fact that it's token only is a non-issue because white gets plenty of asymmetrical wraths.
So of the following examples, what do you think works as a card and what doesn't:
U Bounce all creature tokens. U Exile all creature tokens. U Destroy all creature tokens W Destroy all creature tokens. W Exile all creature tokens. B Destroy all creature tokens. B Exile all creature tokens.
Bounce all creature tokens.
Exile all creature tokens.
Destroy all creature tokens.
Bounce all creature tokens.
Exile all creature tokens.
Destroy all creature tokens.
Exile all creature tokens.
Destroy all creature tokens.
Oh! One more thing crossed my mind as to why this can be UW. How about the following card:
Æther Flicker 2:symwu::symwu:
Sorcery
Exile all creatures then return them to the battlefield.
Yes it does triggers and untaps guys, but one large effect of this card is that it would exile all tokens. So if WU can exile all tokens and do other massively beneficial stuff all at the same time, is exiling tokens really that big of a stretch?
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Flavorfully (like if magic were a real thing) Tokens are IDENTICAL to normal creature cards
No they arent. They used to be, but nowadays they're even less identifiable than nonlegendary creture cards - the vast majority doesn't even have name, only color, type and P/T.
Flavorfully, blue shouldn't be able to exile creatures anywhere, but mechanically, it works, because getting a token off the battlefield in any way is the same as exiling it for all intensive purposes.
If you work based on this argument, destroying a token is the same as exiling it, and bouncing it is the same as exiling, than bouncing is the same as destroying. So... we can have
It seems like we're agreed on blue having "exile all creature tokens" is an okay card, correct?
No! By that logic, we should go back to the dicussion that, if blue can put a creature on top of library, and can also mill; why jump through the hoops to put it on the graveyard? Why not "destroy target creature" and get done with it?
It's not the same.
I believe it's a more whit effect than it is a black effect due to it being an exile spell rather than destroy
You see, this argument lacks coherence. You want it to be blue, because blue can exile tokens (because the way you see it, bouncing a token is the same as exile) - but destroying a token is also the same as exiling which is a... black trait! But no, you want it to be white because black can't exile...
You see, both bouncing and destroying tokens exiles them. White has no part in this card. White cares about tokens.
It's like
Zombie Kill B
Destroy target zombie
or
Wizard Pump 2G
Target wizard gets +5/+5 and has trample until eot.
Even though black is the single-creature-killer, it would never do this...
Green is the primary creature pump, it would also never do this.
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Isperia's First Decree: To join the discussion, I don't really agree that this is a white card so much, and debatably it's not a blue card either. Black makes the most sense to me.. This is a very narrow card anyways, and there are better ways to hose token decks than a sweeper that does little to nothing against non-tokens.
In mild defense of the idea that this effect can be blue, in the sense that dispelling illusions is something blue does (tokens being illusions due to lack of name and physical substance, itself a weak argument). Reality CheckU
Sorcery
Exile target token permanent. "I think, therefore you are not."
-Ero, archmage
Thing is, this could easily be black instead by changing the name and flavor text. Mental PurgeB
Sorcery
Exile target token permanent. "Nothing like oblivion to cure a weak mind of the will to fight, or even breathe."
-Ore, Shadow weaver
Devil's Night: Agree with other comments, basically.
Grave Consumption: Not that strong, fights with scavenge, extraordinarily weak to graveyard hate. A resounding "eh" from me.
Thought Duplicator: the suggestion to change it to "xR, discard: copy..." is so much cleaner. Maybe blue/red hybrid for the cost, actually, since both colors can copy spells.
Spawn From Strength: Big creatures and token swarm are generally counter productive strategies. Okay card, but not great.
Renewing Spirit: I like it, nice and clean, with the effect being a downside or an upside depending on the conditions.
No! By that logic, we should go back to the dicussion that, if blue can put a creature on top of library, and can also mill; why jump through the hoops to put it on the graveyard? Why not "destroy target creature" and get done with it?
It's not the same.
Bounce + Mill = Bury is a different argument than Bunce(tokens) = Exile. In one, you're combining multiple things that a color can do to get an off color effect. In the other you're having a color do the exact same thing it does normally just by using one different word.
You see, this argument lacks coherence. You want it to be blue, because blue can exile tokens (because the way you see it, bouncing a token is the same as exile) - but destroying a token is also the same as exiling which is a... black trait! But no, you want it to be white because black can't exile...
You see, both bouncing and destroying tokens exiles them. White has no part in this card. White cares about tokens.
But destroying tokens, like burning them with pyroclasm, doesn't guarantee their exile. Indestructible tokens and regenerating tokens won't be destroyed, but there are no permanents that can't be either bounced or exiled. Sorry I didn't make that point in my previous post, but that's part of the point I was trying to make.
All that aside, what's the consensus of "token wipe" in UB? Obviously it can cost less than 4, since Æther Snap does more for less flexible mana...
Æther Ripple 1:symub::symub:
Sorcery R
Exile all tokens.
There are few enough noncreture tokens that I think this can just go all out like that.
If we swap from WU to UB, my original points stands:
****ing clever.
And for the sake of doing it,
Æther Ripple 2:symwu::symwu:
Sorcery
Exile all creatures, then return them to the battlefield.
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Yeah, when you make a card, it's gotta both fit into that colour's available abilities and be something that colour does. If you do a mass blink spell, that works in both colours. Top job. Doing a mass exile of tokens might be a similar thing (for tokens, at least), so while blue can technically result in exile through blinking, it's out of colour for blue mechanically and is still not right.
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Sorcery (R)
Exile all token creatures.
Devil's Night - :1mana::symbr::symbr:
Sorcery (R)
Creatures you control get +2/+2 and gain intimidate until end of turn.
Grave Consumption - :3mana::symbg::symbg::symbg:
Sorcery (R)
Exile all creature cards in your graveyard. Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control for each card exiled in this way.
Thought Duplicator - :3mana::symur::symur:
Enchantment (R)
:symur:, Discard a card: Pay target instant or sorcery spell's mana cost. If you do, copy that spell and play it.
Spawn From Strength - :2mana::symgw::symgw:
Sorcery (R)
Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play for each +1/+1 counter on creatures you control.
----
Bonus:
Renewing Spirit - G
Creature -- Spirit (C)
When Renewing Spirit comes into play, return a land you control to its owner's hand.
2/2
At first I was like :\ and then I was like
That's ****ing clever, high five.
Anti-token is not exactly (W/U). Maybe B, or (R/U).
Very, very powerful. Makes Overrun go cry in a corner.
Doesn't work well with Scavenge, as they fight for the same resources. But seems decently costed.
This is overly complicated.
Maybe
X(R/U), discard a card: Copy target instant or sorcery with converted mana cost X.
Seems a tad weak. Lots of working around putting +1/+1 counters, so I can get a few saprolings. Also, I hate putting +1/+1 counters on tokens!!!
Fair enough. Seems great in Stompy decks!
White has gotten anti-token cards before. (Dogged Hunter) The card makes sense in blue because functionally it's the same thing as "Return all token creatures to their owners' hands." It makes sense in the Azorius guild because the authoritarian Azorius would definitely prohibit unchecked masses of creatures as they would be a threat to their governance.
Izzet would not intentionally destroy the tokens, they would experiment on them (which may destroy them, but not intentionally).
It is nice alternative. I cant believe this card haven't seen print before.
Please, don't use cards from 1960 as example. Dogger Hunter is old as hell.
Saying it makes sense in blue is like saying Evacuation and Day of Judgment are the same card, which isn't true. Also, Azorius prohibits pretty much everything that would possibly jeopardize their governance - tokens, nontokens, big critters, etc.
The closest and more recent anti-token card we have is Æther Snap, which is black. Egocentrism is a black trait - and tokens are, by definition, without identity.
I mentioned (U/R) because, as B neighbours, the Izzet are an egocentric guild. They value individuality above everything else, and, as I mentioned, tokens lack identity and creativity.
Evacuation and Day of Judgment aren't the same because they affect non-token creatures, too.
I am also curious what you found clever about that card.
Yes, AEther Snap is also old as hell, but the way I see it, fits modern design philosophy (which got a major revamp since 8th edition).
White destroying tokens because it's removal avoids tokens is like green destroying creatures because it's removal avoids creatures.
Devil's Night - Mass pump is far more than :symrb:. I can't think of a lot of black or red spells that give your army +2/+2 until end of turn. Perhaps :symgw:, +2/+2 and vigilance until end of turn.
Grave Consumption is great! No idea on the power level, but could easily be adjusted via mana cost after testing.
Renewing Spirit - My 9 Forest Stompy wants this
.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
1) Wait, blue doesn't exile creatures.
2) Oh, blue returns things to hand, and in the case of tokens, that exiles them. It's okay after all!
If that's the case, perhaps he just didn't go far enough.
3) Yeah, but then why not give red "destroy target creature", since it does that all the time. Red can destroy creatures, but doesn't get "destroy target creature". Blue can exile token creatures, but doesn't get "exile all token creatures".
But perhaps it's brilliant in a way we haven't noticed yet.
I'll send Sigismond0 a PM and ask him to drop by
.
The way I see it is as follows:
Blue could easily get a spell that bounces all tokens.
White could easily get a spell that destroys all tokens.
Both of these spells would have a functional effect of "exile all creature tokens", so bam you've got a card!
A hypothetical RW hybrid version of this would be a no-go, because even though red can theoretically burn all of the tokens to death with a pyroclasm, there are still big loopholes like 3 toughness, absorb, damage prevention creatures, protection, etc that prevent red from having a true universal board wipe.
I don't think I was missing that. In fact, that's exactly what I said in "3". Right?
There's stuff like Azorius Æthermage, Warped Devotion, and Stormfront Riders, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant.
True
How do you figure? White (along with Green) is basically the token creating and boosting colour, right down to stuff like Hour of Reckoning. "Destroy/exile all token creatures" isn't white, as far as I know.
Definitely, because neither red nor white can "destroy/exile all token creatures".
There are red spells that deal more than 2 damage, like Blasphemous Act and Slagstorm.
You're right that red can't "destroy/exile all token creatures", but it isn't because red is limited to dealing 2 damage.
No offense meant, just replying in honesty. If I misunderstood you, please explain.
.
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Whoops!
Fair enough, but I think that's a pretty small selection of cards. Probably not enough to say there's a real difference between boucing and exiling all tokens.
Just because it doesn't exist in white doesn't mean it's not a white effect. "Destroy all nontoken creatures" wasn't a white effect until it was printed on a white card, and now it's just another in white's suite of asymmetrical-sweepers-even-though-white's-sweepers-are-suppsed-to-be-symetrical. Aether Snap is the only card with the effect so far, but that was kind of a weird one-off and really feels like it should have been UB anyway. (Edit: Ghostway and the 6 mana targeted Ghostway do have this effect in white.)
By that logic, no color but black can...
Pyroclasm was just the example, I'm aware of there being other cards that do more damage.
Now back to the card!
It seems like we're agreed on blue having "exile all creature tokens" is an okay card, correct? The only real point of contention is whether the effect could be white. I believe it's a more whit effect than it is a black effect due to it being an exile spell rather than destroy, and the fact that it's token only is a non-issue because white gets plenty of asymmetrical wraths.
So of the following examples, what do you think works as a card and what doesn't:
U Bounce all creature tokens.
U Exile all creature tokens.
U Destroy all creature tokens
W Destroy all creature tokens.
W Exile all creature tokens.
B Destroy all creature tokens.
B Exile all creature tokens.
Bounce all creature tokens.
Exile all creature tokens.
Destroy all creature tokens.
Bounce all creature tokens.
Exile all creature tokens.
Destroy all creature tokens.
Exile all creature tokens.
Destroy all creature tokens.
Oh! One more thing crossed my mind as to why this can be UW. How about the following card:
Æther Flicker 2:symwu::symwu:
Sorcery
Exile all creatures then return them to the battlefield.
Yes it does triggers and untaps guys, but one large effect of this card is that it would exile all tokens. So if WU can exile all tokens and do other massively beneficial stuff all at the same time, is exiling tokens really that big of a stretch?
No they arent. They used to be, but nowadays they're even less identifiable than nonlegendary creture cards - the vast majority doesn't even have name, only color, type and P/T.
If you work based on this argument, destroying a token is the same as exiling it, and bouncing it is the same as exiling, than bouncing is the same as destroying. So... we can have
"Destroy all token creatures".
It's exactly what it means.
I agree that Aether Snap couldve been UB, although monoB also fits for reasons mentioned above.
No! By that logic, we should go back to the dicussion that, if blue can put a creature on top of library, and can also mill; why jump through the hoops to put it on the graveyard? Why not "destroy target creature" and get done with it?
It's not the same.
You see, this argument lacks coherence. You want it to be blue, because blue can exile tokens (because the way you see it, bouncing a token is the same as exile) - but destroying a token is also the same as exiling which is a... black trait! But no, you want it to be white because black can't exile...
You see, both bouncing and destroying tokens exiles them. White has no part in this card. White cares about tokens.
It's like
Destroy target zombie
Target wizard gets +5/+5 and has trample until eot.
Green is the primary creature pump, it would also never do this.
In mild defense of the idea that this effect can be blue, in the sense that dispelling illusions is something blue does (tokens being illusions due to lack of name and physical substance, itself a weak argument).
Reality Check U
Sorcery
Exile target token permanent.
"I think, therefore you are not."
-Ero, archmage
Thing is, this could easily be black instead by changing the name and flavor text.
Mental Purge B
Sorcery
Exile target token permanent.
"Nothing like oblivion to cure a weak mind of the will to fight, or even breathe."
-Ore, Shadow weaver
Devil's Night: Agree with other comments, basically.
Grave Consumption: Not that strong, fights with scavenge, extraordinarily weak to graveyard hate. A resounding "eh" from me.
Thought Duplicator: the suggestion to change it to "xR, discard: copy..." is so much cleaner. Maybe blue/red hybrid for the cost, actually, since both colors can copy spells.
Spawn From Strength: Big creatures and token swarm are generally counter productive strategies. Okay card, but not great.
Renewing Spirit: I like it, nice and clean, with the effect being a downside or an upside depending on the conditions.
But destroying tokens, like burning them with pyroclasm, doesn't guarantee their exile. Indestructible tokens and regenerating tokens won't be destroyed, but there are no permanents that can't be either bounced or exiled. Sorry I didn't make that point in my previous post, but that's part of the point I was trying to make.
All that aside, what's the consensus of "token wipe" in UB? Obviously it can cost less than 4, since Æther Snap does more for less flexible mana...
Æther Ripple 1:symub::symub:
Sorcery R
Exile all tokens.
There are few enough noncreture tokens that I think this can just go all out like that.
If we swap from WU to UB, my original points stands:
****ing clever.
And for the sake of doing it,
Æther Ripple 2:symwu::symwu:
Sorcery
Exile all creatures, then return them to the battlefield.
This is something that fit both colors and destroy tokens at the same time. Good job.
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