So you know how much I hate lacking interactivity in MTG. That's why I am a staunch opponent to Protection and Hexproof. However, I acknowledge that having a defensive mechanic is a desirable asset to encourage equipment, auras and, let's face it, creatures to be played.
To this end, I thought: "why not keyword Frost Titan then?"
Consider these cards:
Lordhelm Rider | 1W Creature - Human Knight
First strike
Ward - 1 (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays 1.) 2/1
Spined Wartooth | 2G Creature - Cat
Ward - 3 (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays 3.) 3/2
So for the most part, these cards have a variable measure of protection which can be tuned to the environment to be higher or lower, depending on the mana-efficiency of the available removal and the desired efficiency of it against these creatures.
But most importantly, you can theoretically interact with these creatures, even if a Shock on the Wartooth costs a restrictive 4 mana.
The versatility of the mechanic allows it to be used on colours that don't traditionally get defensive measures like hexproof:
Magma Runner | 2R Creature - Lizard
Haste
Ward - Sacrifice a land (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller sacrifices a land.) 2/2
Underworld Gatemaster | 2BB Creature - Demon
Ward - Sacrifice two creatures (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller sacrifices two creatures.) 4/3
Underworld Gatemaster up there has the interesting feature that it is really good against control strategies because his Ward cost is more difficult to pay. This just shows how useful the mechanic is.
Another possibility:
Indentured Paladin | WW Creature - Human Knight
First strike
Ward against red and against black - :sym2w::sym2w: (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability from a black and/or red source an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays :sym2w::sym2w:.) 2/2
Of course, there is only one issue: How can an instant or sorcery grant this ability? The simple answer: It can't. It's just more sensical to grant hexproof, since you are already using a card to protect a creature, it might as well be unconditional protection.
Another possible question: But what about spells and abilities that cannot be countered? The answer: They are now not just things that you play against control decks, they are useful against any sort of deck with either counterspells or defensive Wards. If you can't see how turning cards that have an unbearably small niche into cards that can be used all around, well, can't help you there.
This is amazing. Its got a ton of flavor, and it has so many options.
My criticism -
Find a fixed cost. Such as for Ward 1 it would cost 2 or C. This would set a basis for rarity and such.
For an Instant/Sorcery you could grant it to each creature you control, or "choose a perm type you control, they gain Ward X until end of turn" although Hexproof is obviously better, by having the mana per ward cost cheaper, you could run some interesting things.
Eh, I think it's better to just go with the wording on Vines of Vastwood for instants and stuff.
I think it would be extremely hard to find a fixed cost, simply because Ward 1 and Ward 2 have such a vast power difference. Ward 5 sounds like it should be worth much more, but really, it's still worse than hexproof so it cannot be that expensive.
What I love about it is that it's cumulative.
So for example, you could have:
Sigils of the Brave | WG Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
Creatures you control gain Ward - 1 for each +1/+1 counter on them.
So if you have an Underworld Gatemaster with two +1/+1 counters on it, your opponent can still bring it down with a spell... but also paying 2 and two creatures.
For an Instant/Sorcery you could grant it to each creature you control, or "choose a perm type you control, they gain Ward X until end of turn" although Hexproof is obviously better, by having the mana per ward cost cheaper, you could run some interesting things.
But how does this help? If it's a sorcery then they can respond with removal, if it's an instant you can't respond to save your stuff because they've already been targeted and have missed the opportunity where ward would trigger.
My criticism -
Find a fixed cost. Such as for Ward 1 it would cost 2 or C. This would set a basis for rarity and such.
Can you explain this? It seems to me that having varying costs would make for a much more versatile/scalable mechanic. Shouldn't Ward - 1 cost 1 and Ward - 2 cost 2?
You might have to word Ward a little differently for it to work, but in essence it would work.
@BetweenWalls:
If the cards being created in this thread weren't meant for Limited there is no reason to give it a fixed cost, but by giving it a fixed cost, it would play with the rarity. If most commons used 1 for 1, than a card such as Spined Wartooth would easily be set at uncommon, since your getting ward 3 and a body for 3cmc. Looking at the cards now, Fumar hasn't really given Ward any additional mana in the cmc. As a 2/1 First Strike for 2cmc is actually the norm, if not under costed (Not for white anyways. lol) and a 3/2 for 3cmc isn't that unheard of either.
An excellent idea, and a good presentation too. Each color has a way to justify a protective ward of some form, from wizards, to shamans, to magically enhanced soldiers, to even just having reflective skin for monsters. Allowing for the "Can't be countered" ability to matter more often is a nice trick, although it could cause an ability arms race.
My biggest problem with this idea is having it as evergreen. I'm not saying that this would be bad as evergreen, but it doesn't fit any of the evergreen keywords, I.E. First Strike, Double Strike, Flying, Intimidate, Haste, Trample, Hexproof, Shroud (still evergreen, just put aside in favor of hexproof), Lifelink (I might have missed some). The closest it gets is Protection, in that it isn't constant for all cards with it. The problem is that it can vary far more than protection, having a standard form, or the extra forms of protection, along with the different costs. The costs are the real problem, as none of the other evergreens have any kind of variance to them. It also breaks the (new) rule that no evergreen is cumulative, multiple instances of an evergreen keyword are redundant.
This doesn't mean it can't be a recurring ability, like cycling, scry, or now bloodthirst, it just likely won't be showing up in every set. Perhaps one major block with it in focus, then it shows up from time to time in small sets when it's appropriate.
All that said, I still love the idea. It's simple to understand, and very flavorful.
I thought you were talking about the mechanics of the ability and not how much mana it should add to the cmc. I've been under the impression that rarity is based off of the card as a whole and not individual aspects. Ward - 1 costs the opponent 1 mana if they want to target it, while Ward - 2 costs them 2 mana. The cmc should definitely not scale in the same manner, as Ward is strictly worse than Hexproof and that ability rarely adds more than 1 to the cmc.
This is an mechanic.. and much more interactive than hexproof. It allows an opponent to actually do something even if it's restrictive. Even if an opponent manages to kill a creature with a high ward cost, it will cost that player a lot of mana.
It is.
Red direct damage is the only type of instant or sorcery to be targeted by more than countermagic (Harm's Way and the like), and half of the time damage prevention works on the creatures and not the players.
"Cannot be countered" is really narrow, but were Ward to exist then it would be broad enough to merit wider use.
An excellent idea, and a good presentation too. Each color has a way to justify a protective ward of some form, from wizards, to shamans, to magically enhanced soldiers, to even just having reflective skin for monsters. Allowing for the "Can't be countered" ability to matter more often is a nice trick, although it could cause an ability arms race.
@Thornstrike: But then it just creates more tension at deckbuilding. That Urza's Rage costs 2 mana more than Lightning Bolt... is being better against creatures with Ward worth the inefficiency? That's the sole purpose of the mechanic, make your deck less efficient at killing creatures.
It is.
Red direct damage is the only type of instant or sorcery to be targeted by more than countermagic (Harm's Way and the like), and half of the time damage prevention works on the creatures and not the players.
"Cannot be countered" is really narrow, but were Ward to exist then it would be broad enough to merit wider use.
Just to clarify: Harm's Way doesn't target instant or sorcery spells - but Swerve does.
I like the interaction with "cannot be countered", but I dislike the interaction with redirection. Since redirection is a rare effect though that's not a damning problem.
In general ward might suffer from being too free in its parameter - it probably should be restricted to mana costs and the :symg::symw::symu: in most settings.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
To clarify even further: Most damage prevention targets the creature or player that would be dealt the damage and just specifies either "the next N damage" or "a source of your choice". After a quick search, I think Hallow, Hidden Retreat, and Shieldmage Elder might be the only damage prevention that actually targets an instant or sorcery spell.
I have to agree with others that ward is a bit too complicated to be an evergreen ability, but would be an okay set mechanic.
In general ward might suffer from being too free in its parameter - it probably should be restricted to mana costs and the :symg::symw::symu: in most settings.
rivercrab asked: I don't remember whether I'd asked this or not, but might as well do it again - have you ever considered keywording Frost Titan's first ability in lieu of hexproof? It's a defensive mechanic that doesn't say "no interaction" as blatantly, and it can be tuned up and down (and sideways with targeting costs like "sacrifice a land").
Frost Giant’s ability is rather complex for a keyword ability. It has a trigger and can counter spells and requires the paying of mana.
I liked the way the original interacted with spells with "can't be countered by spells or abilities." Making it just an additional cost takes a lot of the interest out of it, imo.
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To this end, I thought: "why not keyword Frost Titan then?"
Consider these cards:
Lordhelm Rider | 1W
Creature - Human Knight
First strike
Ward - 1 (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays 1.)
2/1
Spined Wartooth | 2G
Creature - Cat
Ward - 3 (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays 3.)
3/2
So for the most part, these cards have a variable measure of protection which can be tuned to the environment to be higher or lower, depending on the mana-efficiency of the available removal and the desired efficiency of it against these creatures.
But most importantly, you can theoretically interact with these creatures, even if a Shock on the Wartooth costs a restrictive 4 mana.
The versatility of the mechanic allows it to be used on colours that don't traditionally get defensive measures like hexproof:
Magma Runner | 2R
Creature - Lizard
Haste
Ward - Sacrifice a land (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller sacrifices a land.)
2/2
Underworld Gatemaster | 2BB
Creature - Demon
Ward - Sacrifice two creatures (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller sacrifices two creatures.)
4/3
Underworld Gatemaster up there has the interesting feature that it is really good against control strategies because his Ward cost is more difficult to pay. This just shows how useful the mechanic is.
Another possibility:
Indentured Paladin | WW
Creature - Human Knight
First strike
Ward against red and against black - :sym2w::sym2w: (Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability from a black and/or red source an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless its controller pays :sym2w::sym2w:.)
2/2
Of course, there is only one issue: How can an instant or sorcery grant this ability? The simple answer: It can't. It's just more sensical to grant hexproof, since you are already using a card to protect a creature, it might as well be unconditional protection.
Another possible question: But what about spells and abilities that cannot be countered? The answer: They are now not just things that you play against control decks, they are useful against any sort of deck with either counterspells or defensive Wards. If you can't see how turning cards that have an unbearably small niche into cards that can be used all around, well, can't help you there.
So what's the verdict?
My criticism -
Find a fixed cost. Such as for Ward 1 it would cost 2 or C. This would set a basis for rarity and such.
For an Instant/Sorcery you could grant it to each creature you control, or "choose a perm type you control, they gain Ward X until end of turn" although Hexproof is obviously better, by having the mana per ward cost cheaper, you could run some interesting things.
I think it would be extremely hard to find a fixed cost, simply because Ward 1 and Ward 2 have such a vast power difference. Ward 5 sounds like it should be worth much more, but really, it's still worse than hexproof so it cannot be that expensive.
What I love about it is that it's cumulative.
So for example, you could have:
Sigils of the Brave | WG
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature.
Creatures you control gain Ward - 1 for each +1/+1 counter on them.
So if you have an Underworld Gatemaster with two +1/+1 counters on it, your opponent can still bring it down with a spell... but also paying 2 and two creatures.
But how does this help? If it's a sorcery then they can respond with removal, if it's an instant you can't respond to save your stuff because they've already been targeted and have missed the opportunity where ward would trigger.
Can you explain this? It seems to me that having varying costs would make for a much more versatile/scalable mechanic. Shouldn't Ward - 1 cost 1 and Ward - 2 cost 2?
You might have to word Ward a little differently for it to work, but in essence it would work.
@BetweenWalls:
If the cards being created in this thread weren't meant for Limited there is no reason to give it a fixed cost, but by giving it a fixed cost, it would play with the rarity. If most commons used 1 for 1, than a card such as Spined Wartooth would easily be set at uncommon, since your getting ward 3 and a body for 3cmc. Looking at the cards now, Fumar hasn't really given Ward any additional mana in the cmc. As a 2/1 First Strike for 2cmc is actually the norm, if not under costed (Not for white anyways. lol) and a 3/2 for 3cmc isn't that unheard of either.
My biggest problem with this idea is having it as evergreen. I'm not saying that this would be bad as evergreen, but it doesn't fit any of the evergreen keywords, I.E. First Strike, Double Strike, Flying, Intimidate, Haste, Trample, Hexproof, Shroud (still evergreen, just put aside in favor of hexproof), Lifelink (I might have missed some). The closest it gets is Protection, in that it isn't constant for all cards with it. The problem is that it can vary far more than protection, having a standard form, or the extra forms of protection, along with the different costs. The costs are the real problem, as none of the other evergreens have any kind of variance to them. It also breaks the (new) rule that no evergreen is cumulative, multiple instances of an evergreen keyword are redundant.
This doesn't mean it can't be a recurring ability, like cycling, scry, or now bloodthirst, it just likely won't be showing up in every set. Perhaps one major block with it in focus, then it shows up from time to time in small sets when it's appropriate.
All that said, I still love the idea. It's simple to understand, and very flavorful.
I thought you were talking about the mechanics of the ability and not how much mana it should add to the cmc. I've been under the impression that rarity is based off of the card as a whole and not individual aspects. Ward - 1 costs the opponent 1 mana if they want to target it, while Ward - 2 costs them 2 mana. The cmc should definitely not scale in the same manner, as Ward is strictly worse than Hexproof and that ability rarely adds more than 1 to the cmc.
What does everyone think of the Kaervek's Torch ability? It functions the same as Ward, but for spells on the stack instead of permanents. Admittedly, countermagic is more limited than targeted removal, but it's curious that the ability hasn't shown up more than it has. Is it just too complicated when compared to //gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&action=advanced&text=+[%22can%27t+be+countered%22">"]"can't be countered"?
It is.
Red direct damage is the only type of instant or sorcery to be targeted by more than countermagic (Harm's Way and the like), and half of the time damage prevention works on the creatures and not the players.
"Cannot be countered" is really narrow, but were Ward to exist then it would be broad enough to merit wider use.
@Thornstrike: But then it just creates more tension at deckbuilding. That Urza's Rage costs 2 mana more than Lightning Bolt... is being better against creatures with Ward worth the inefficiency? That's the sole purpose of the mechanic, make your deck less efficient at killing creatures.
Just to clarify: Harm's Way doesn't target instant or sorcery spells - but Swerve does.
I like the interaction with "cannot be countered", but I dislike the interaction with redirection. Since redirection is a rare effect though that's not a damning problem.
In general ward might suffer from being too free in its parameter - it probably should be restricted to mana costs and the :symg::symw::symu: in most settings.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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I have to agree with others that ward is a bit too complicated to be an evergreen ability, but would be an okay set mechanic.
Ward - Cost (Whenever this becomes the target of a spell or ability, counter it unless its controller pays [Cost])
<Type> Ward - Cost (Whenever this becomes the target of a spell or ability from a [Type] source, counter it unless its controller pays [Cost])
and you've got a winner.
Red Ward (This creature has protection from red.)
I'm just sayin'.
I agree it's novel in black, but red has already seen it with Viashino Flectomancer and Lava Runner.
I just don't enjoy hexproof. I know you guys may do and it's simplicity may be enticing, but I don't feel I'm alone here.
Ward X (Your opponents must pay this card's ward cost in addition to other costs to target this creature).
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/23088431381/i-dont-remember-whether-id-asked-this-or-not-but
I really do like this idea a lot honestly, it creates some awesome creatures and potential uses.
RRR Khorenthos - The Red Block (Feedback needed!) RRR