I know tutor effects show up a lot, but I began thinking the other day about the 'rule' that says tutors that search for something specific must have the searcher reveal the card they searched for to help prevent cheating. I got to wondering if there was a way to mess around with this premise. What I came up with were tutors that searched for something aligned with that tutor's color, didn't force you to reveal it, but then required your next card played be a card of the type you searched for under penalty of death. Something like the following:
Tutor of the Realm - [white mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for an enchantment card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an enchantment, you lose the game.
Tutor of the Legacy - [blue mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for an artifact card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an artifact, you lose the game.
Tutor of the Arena - [red mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for a sorcery card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not a sorcery, you lose the game.
Tutor of the Wilds - [green mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for a creature card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not a creature, you lose the game.
I purposefully left out black figuring that it is allowed to have whatever it wants anyway. I couldn't fathom a mana cost for the above that really seemed to fit and that I didn't feel was unplayable or totally broken. But I waffled on that point. So, I got to thinking about limiting it even further to subtypes. Something like:
Seek Essence - WW
Sorcery
Search your library for an aura card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an aura, you lose the game.
Seek Knowledge - UU
Sorcery
Search your library for an arcane card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not arcane, you lose the game.
Seek Strength - RR
Sorcery
Search your library for an equipment card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an equipment, you lose the game.
Seek Kin - GG
Sorcery
Search your library for an elf card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an elf, you lose the game.
These seemed a bit more balanced, still actually allowed you to search for whatever you wanted but kept you checked into limiting what came next. These could still be too broken, especially all but the blue one, I'm just curious what the community thinks. Is there another way to exploit this design space?
"I have Wirewood Channeler in hand. If only I had Freed from the Real to go with it..."
"Seek Kin!"
"...I'll go get Freed from the Real. Yes I'm supposed to search for an Elf, but the card is specifically designed to let me cheat undetectably."
"One, two, is this game through?"
Expecting a player to be honest with unverifiable hidden information is never a good idea.
You've seen the broken part of the equation (and yes, elf was probably a bad creature type to choose) but the point IS that you CAN cheat. This concept started with that as the given.
I have a buddy who describes the whole of Magic as a game that is all about cheating the rules, and when you think about it, the game starts with a fairly simple set of rules and then most mechanics and game play are based on breaking or bending those rules.
So, the question remains, is this something that could be tweaked to work? I'm not convinced there isn't a way to balance them a bit and still have them be playable.
Couldn't you just remove the restriction from the card search? Like "Search your library for any card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not -whatever-, you lose the game."
Is that what you're going for? You can search for whatever you want, but you'll have a tough time casting it unless you search for a particular type of card (or already have one in your hand to play first).
Alternatively, if the point is just to make a specific tutor that doesn't force you to reveal the card, how about something like "Search your library for a card and exile it face-down, then shuffle your library. You may look at that card at any time. You may turn that card face-up at any time and cast it if it's a -whatever- card."
So if you can just search for whatever you want, why bother with the restriction?
"I want to cheat at cards" is the single worst thing to design cards around I have ever seen, and I have been playing the game for 16 years.
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When editing cards in the first post of a thread, PLEASE leave the original so that everyone can comment on the thread and not just those who saw the original. Those who did not see the original can't leave comments as we don't have any idea WTF is going on.
Colourless mana comes FIRST! Try actually looking at a Magic card some time. It is NOT UU3, it's 3UU. What game are you making cards for?
I can no longer tell people to check their card names, because I am made of suck and fail.
A while back I designed a cycle of cards that tutored without revealing (though, admittedly, the black card was a group effort):
Hidden Riches2WW
Enchantment U
When Hidden Riches enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Riches: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is an artifact or enchantment card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Lore1UU
Enchantment U
When Hidden Lore enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Lore: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is an instant card, put it into your hand.
Hidden GrudgeRR
Enchantment U
When Hidden Grudge enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Grudge: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is a sorcery card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Life2GG
Enchantment U
When Hidden Life enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Life: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is a creature or land card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Agenda3BB
Enchantment R
When Hidden Agenda enters the battlefield, search your library for up to four cards and exile them face down. Then shuffle your library. B:The next time you would draw a card this turn, put a card exiled by Hidden Agenda into your hand instead. 1B, Sacrifice Hidden Agenda: Put a card exiled by Hidden Agenda into your hand.
To those of you who posted well-reasoned, well-intentioned ideas and critiques: I thank you greatly for your time and comments.
I still like the feeling of the "bluff" but I think that Scuirimancer hit upon something that could see print and is closest to what I was going for. I do like the 'Hidden' cycle as well, it is just a little further from the original concept.
In any rate, this gives me something to mull over, thanks!
I do like the 'Hidden' cycle as well, it is just a little further from the original concept.
Yeah, you can't blatantly cheat. Sucks, doesn't it?
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When editing cards in the first post of a thread, PLEASE leave the original so that everyone can comment on the thread and not just those who saw the original. Those who did not see the original can't leave comments as we don't have any idea WTF is going on.
Colourless mana comes FIRST! Try actually looking at a Magic card some time. It is NOT UU3, it's 3UU. What game are you making cards for?
I can no longer tell people to check their card names, because I am made of suck and fail.
Well, the way the original cycle is worded, it basically says:
"Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not (something), you lose the game."
Which is kind of silly; it's Diabolic Tutors all around! They're just horrifically dangerous to play with. Which seems much blacker than even most black tutors.
Shadow, he knows, he even pretty much outright says that was the entire point.
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When editing cards in the first post of a thread, PLEASE leave the original so that everyone can comment on the thread and not just those who saw the original. Those who did not see the original can't leave comments as we don't have any idea WTF is going on.
Colourless mana comes FIRST! Try actually looking at a Magic card some time. It is NOT UU3, it's 3UU. What game are you making cards for?
I can no longer tell people to check their card names, because I am made of suck and fail.
Idyllic Cheatyface 2WW
Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Then reveal an enchantment card from your hand or discard your hand.
I'm sure it's happened to everyone at one point or another. The opponent uses an Idyllic Tutor for example, but forgets to reveal the card he finds. You remind him, so he shows an enchantment in his hand, but you have no way of telling if it's the one he just fetched or if it was in his hand before.
I know tutor effects show up a lot, but I began thinking the other day about the 'rule' that says tutors that search for something specific must have the searcher reveal the card they searched for to help prevent cheating. I got to wondering if there was a way to mess around with this premise.
There isn't.
You're welcome.
These seemed a bit more balanced, still actually allowed you to search for whatever you wanted but kept you checked into limiting what came next. These could still be too broken, especially all but the blue one, I'm just curious what the community thinks. Is there another way to exploit this design space?
If you made the spells just search for any card, and kept the rest of the text, you might have an interesting design vein.
It would be a kind of tutor that would specifically be punishable by Black's discard, so it's sort of neat in a way, that Black is defending its tutoring space.
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Tutor of the Realm - [white mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for an enchantment card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an enchantment, you lose the game.
Tutor of the Legacy - [blue mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for an artifact card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an artifact, you lose the game.
Tutor of the Arena - [red mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for a sorcery card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not a sorcery, you lose the game.
Tutor of the Wilds - [green mana cost]
Sorcery
Search your library for a creature card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not a creature, you lose the game.
I purposefully left out black figuring that it is allowed to have whatever it wants anyway. I couldn't fathom a mana cost for the above that really seemed to fit and that I didn't feel was unplayable or totally broken. But I waffled on that point. So, I got to thinking about limiting it even further to subtypes. Something like:
Seek Essence - WW
Sorcery
Search your library for an aura card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an aura, you lose the game.
Seek Knowledge - UU
Sorcery
Search your library for an arcane card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not arcane, you lose the game.
Seek Strength - RR
Sorcery
Search your library for an equipment card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an equipment, you lose the game.
Seek Kin - GG
Sorcery
Search your library for an elf card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not an elf, you lose the game.
These seemed a bit more balanced, still actually allowed you to search for whatever you wanted but kept you checked into limiting what came next. These could still be too broken, especially all but the blue one, I'm just curious what the community thinks. Is there another way to exploit this design space?
"Seek Kin!"
"...I'll go get Freed from the Real. Yes I'm supposed to search for an Elf, but the card is specifically designed to let me cheat undetectably."
"One, two, is this game through?"
Expecting a player to be honest with unverifiable hidden information is never a good idea.
I have a buddy who describes the whole of Magic as a game that is all about cheating the rules, and when you think about it, the game starts with a fairly simple set of rules and then most mechanics and game play are based on breaking or bending those rules.
So, the question remains, is this something that could be tweaked to work? I'm not convinced there isn't a way to balance them a bit and still have them be playable.
Is that what you're going for? You can search for whatever you want, but you'll have a tough time casting it unless you search for a particular type of card (or already have one in your hand to play first).
Alternatively, if the point is just to make a specific tutor that doesn't force you to reveal the card, how about something like "Search your library for a card and exile it face-down, then shuffle your library. You may look at that card at any time. You may turn that card face-up at any time and cast it if it's a -whatever- card."
• Recent Card Ideas • My Drawings at DeviantArt
"I want to cheat at cards" is the single worst thing to design cards around I have ever seen, and I have been playing the game for 16 years.
Colourless mana comes FIRST! Try actually looking at a Magic card some time. It is NOT UU3, it's 3UU. What game are you making cards for?
I can no longer tell people to check their card names, because I am made of suck and fail.
Hidden Riches 2WW
Enchantment U
When Hidden Riches enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Riches: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is an artifact or enchantment card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Lore 1UU
Enchantment U
When Hidden Lore enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Lore: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is an instant card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Grudge RR
Enchantment U
When Hidden Grudge enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Grudge: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is a sorcery card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Life 2GG
Enchantment U
When Hidden Life enters the battlefield, search your library for a card and exile it face down. Then shuffle your library.
Sacrifice Hidden Life: Reveal the exiled card. If that card is a creature or land card, put it into your hand.
Hidden Agenda 3BB
Enchantment R
When Hidden Agenda enters the battlefield, search your library for up to four cards and exile them face down. Then shuffle your library.
B:The next time you would draw a card this turn, put a card exiled by Hidden Agenda into your hand instead.
1B, Sacrifice Hidden Agenda: Put a card exiled by Hidden Agenda into your hand.
Here's the original thread if you'd like to see what comments I got and such: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=209044
I still like the feeling of the "bluff" but I think that Scuirimancer hit upon something that could see print and is closest to what I was going for. I do like the 'Hidden' cycle as well, it is just a little further from the original concept.
In any rate, this gives me something to mull over, thanks!
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
If you don't cast the type of card it tells you to, yes, you do.
Yeah, you can't blatantly cheat. Sucks, doesn't it?
Colourless mana comes FIRST! Try actually looking at a Magic card some time. It is NOT UU3, it's 3UU. What game are you making cards for?
I can no longer tell people to check their card names, because I am made of suck and fail.
"Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If the next card you cast is not (something), you lose the game."
Which is kind of silly; it's Diabolic Tutors all around! They're just horrifically dangerous to play with. Which seems much blacker than even most black tutors.
Colourless mana comes FIRST! Try actually looking at a Magic card some time. It is NOT UU3, it's 3UU. What game are you making cards for?
I can no longer tell people to check their card names, because I am made of suck and fail.
Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Then reveal an enchantment card from your hand or discard your hand.
I'm sure it's happened to everyone at one point or another. The opponent uses an Idyllic Tutor for example, but forgets to reveal the card he finds. You remind him, so he shows an enchantment in his hand, but you have no way of telling if it's the one he just fetched or if it was in his hand before.
There isn't.
You're welcome.
If you made the spells just search for any card, and kept the rest of the text, you might have an interesting design vein.
It would be a kind of tutor that would specifically be punishable by Black's discard, so it's sort of neat in a way, that Black is defending its tutoring space.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].