Motivational Piker
{-3}WW
Creature - Human Soldier (2/2) (You have to pay WW to pay Motivational Piker’s mana cost. Its converted mana cost is -1.)
Whenever a creature you control blocks or becomes blocked by a creature with greater converted mana cost, it gets +1/+1 and gains first strike until end of turn.
I've developed the following FAQ entry for the card:
* The generic mana symbol in Motivational Piker's mana cost, {-3}, represents negative three mana. It essentially means a cost of {W}{W}, which you'll end up paying, reduced by {3}. {-3} can't reduce the {W}{W} in the cost, and paying the cost doesn't cause {3} to be added to your mana pool.
* If an effect makes Motivational Piker cost {1}, {2}, or {3} more to cast, you'll still pay {W}{W} to cast it for its mana cost. If it costs {4} more to cast, you'll have to pay {1}{W}{W}.
* Most tokens have a converted mana cost of 0, so even if Motivational Piker blocks or becomes blocked by a token (unless that token is a copy of Motivational Piker itself), it still gets +1/+1 and gains first strike.
* Most effects that use Motivational Piker's converted mana cost as a number of something won't end up doing anything; gaining or losing -1 life, dealing or preventing -1 damage, drawing or discarding -1 cards, and putting -1 counters on an object or -1 tokens onto the battlefield all have no effect, just as if 0 was used in place of -1. The exception is effects that change power and toughness. For example, Manaplasm reads "Whenever you cast a spell, Manaplasm gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is that spell's converted mana cost." If you control Manaplasm when you cast Motivational Piker, Manaplasm will get -1/-1 until end of turn.
Three questions:
-Is there any other potential source of misplays that you'd add to the FAQ?
-Even more so, is there some rules interaction that makes the card not work? (Probably not, since the rules have grown much more accustomed to negative values recently, but just checking.)
-Finally, does the negative CMC gimmick bring enough to the card to offset any bizarreness it creates? (see also: why evoke creatures were printed as creature cards and not sorcery cards)
While I'm not entirely sure about the "physics" (or the comp. rules) about this, it's a neat idea. I think in a set/block where the theme is based on this, it'd be pretty cool. However, this idea would be pretty stupid with things like Erratic Explosion.
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
No more stupid than Ornithopter already is with Erratic Explosion. You would deal -1 damage, which is indistinguishable from 0 damage.
Think of it as Hand of Honor that gives up protection from black in favor of conditional first strike/bushido for your other dudes.
Oh I understand that it does nothing... similar to Spinal Parasite from Fifth Dawn that has -1/-1 p/t. Just some questions for you real quick just to define some things...
Then other things I suggest... don't make any Artifacts with this (because of Tinker Mage and Reconstruct like effects) and don't make any Spirits (or you'll make Soulshift playable). Interestingly enough, these guys get passed Chalice of the Void really nicely. And whatever "format" this would exist in needs to ban Protean Hulk.
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Accelerated Mutation will likely find a land for +0/+0 if nothing else. But if you somehow managed to get rid of all your lands, yes you can use this as a really expensive Sicken.
Ad Nauseam gets this for free; losing -1 life doesn't do anything.
Yes, the downside of this bushidoing off of 0's is it also loses a clash against 0's.
AEther Vial is far from broken with this; to the contrary, since it's impossible to have -1 counters, you'll never be able to drop this with Vial. (A lot like the Chalice of the Void case you mention later.)
It does contribute -1/-1 to Ancient Ooze, so that dies if they're the only two creatures or alongside a single 1-drop.
Augury Adept is just like Ad Nauseam, and gaining -1 life does nothing.
Yes you can use Protean Hulk to search for this and a 7, or four of them and a 10. I contend that this doesn't improve the quality of existing Hulk packages.
There aren't any plans to include other negative mana symbols alongside this--after all, he loses some of his edge if he's not the only negative-cost creature in Magic! Still, at least with this guy the "cheating" effects aren't all that big of an advantage. So you can Ranger of Eos for a 2/2 guy that's effectively a 2. Ooh, aah.
Fascinating concept there! Negative mana costs could definitely add a whole new dimension to the game, one previously unexplored.
My question is, how does this work in terms of flavour? As in, why would a card have a negative cost? Existing abstract mechanics at least make sense to players; 'kicking' a spell means pumping it up with extra mana for a greater effects, and 'cumulative upkeep' means you have to keep expending one resource to keep something strong. Hybrid mana of the 2/C variety even makes sense, as you can either use a very special kind of mana, or use any kind but at greater cost to you.
This mechanic makes no sense to me whatsoever, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. just because you can do something, doesn't always mean you should.
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
The flavor is you have some dudes but they're scared of big scary monsters and don't want to fight because they'll die so then you have this guy and he convinces them to go fight (perhaps by making them survive after all) and obviously in order to do that, this guy has to be constantly motivated which is represented by having a lower converted mana cost than any other card in the game.
Meanwhile for most other purposes, it works like all the other bear-sized soldiers out there.
In short: the {-3} is like a sigil that extends outside the art box.
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
He means in terms of the game as a whole. Mana costs are used to reflect the energy it takes to bring in a creature from another realm or bend the laws of physics to your will. So how (within the contexts of the game) could something require negative energy to create?
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
The negative energy in this case doesn't actually change the amount of energy it takes to create, it just makes it appear on the surface that it takes less, so that it's more likely to be perceived as the underdog in a fight. That's what he's all about, convincing the underdog to take up arms and show the scary monster the error of its misconception, so he himself (and by extension his {-3}) represents the ultimate underdog.
The negative energy in this case doesn't actually change the amount of energy it takes to create, it just makes it appear on the surface that it takes less, so that it's more likely to be perceived as the underdog in a fight. That's what he's all about, convincing the underdog to take up arms and show the scary monster the error of its misconception, so he himself (and by extension his {-3}) represents the ultimate underdog.
Yes, that's a better explanation.
However, I don't see why this couldn't be done with something like:
Miniscule 3 (Whenever a spell or ability checks the converted mana cost of ~, subtract 3 from that number.) or something like that.
Now that I think about it, the idea of having "mini" creatures and spells could work for a plane like segovia (the tiny one)
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
The negative energy in this case doesn't actually change the amount of energy it takes to create, it just makes it appear on the surface that it takes less, so that it's more likely to be perceived as the underdog in a fight. That's what he's all about, convincing the underdog to take up arms and show the scary monster the error of its misconception, so he himself (and by extension his {-3}) represents the ultimate underdog.
In the flavor you're describing, then, the Planeswalker summoning said guy should have the negative mana cost, not the creature. The energy that's used to produce the guy is still the same, but the guy casting should perceive it as less (as the underdog explained in your statement)... I think you have a really strong concept, and a whole lot of design space... but your flavor seems really weak.
In an eight player game, is anything good? Don't you just sit there countering combos until someone genesis waves for 42 after all the blue players tap out fighting over a bribery?
thats weak flavor and doesn't justify giving it a converted mana cost thats negative
Instead why not have it be a negative creature, inverted in many ways from other cards in the set. Similar to colorshifting in a way, but an example
What would the inverse of a progidal pyromancer be
The answer is a 1/1 with T: gain one life/prevent a damage ectect.
cards like that make alot more sense to me than just going He's an underdog
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Remember Figure of Destiny? That card was the inspiration for the level-up mechanic. -Wizards
Accept the truth.
White already has a weenie-rush strategy,with several low-cost, playable creatures which are fairly likely to have lower CMC than creature that block or are blocked by them, particularly against green or blue. You could print this card at simply WW for a 2/2 and its ability would still matter quite often, without all this negative CMC stuff going on confusing players.
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Gaymer
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
White already has a weenie-rush strategy,with several low-cost, playable creatures which are fairly likely to have lower CMC than creature that block or are blocked by them, particularly against green or blue. You could print this card at simply WW for a 2/2 and its ability would still matter quite often, without all this negative CMC stuff going on confusing players.
I think this is an interesting idea, but most of the time viridiancircle is probably right. Caring about low cmc is neat but doesn't really need the wacky new rules.
In fact, I don't think there are a lot of situations where you'd want your cards to have low/negative CMC, but there may be situations where a higher CMC is worth it (like pretty much all of the examples that have been mentioned). I could see how a few (not a lot) creatures like this might be helpful:
:3mana::symw::symw:
This costs less to cast as long as you control a plains.
Something that effectively costs only WW but will always count as "5" for purposes of erratic explosion and the like.
{-3}WW
Creature - Human Soldier (2/2)
(You have to pay WW to pay Motivational Piker’s mana cost. Its converted mana cost is -1.)
Whenever a creature you control blocks or becomes blocked by a creature with greater converted mana cost, it gets +1/+1 and gains first strike until end of turn.
I've developed the following FAQ entry for the card:
Three questions:
-Is there any other potential source of misplays that you'd add to the FAQ?
-Even more so, is there some rules interaction that makes the card not work? (Probably not, since the rules have grown much more accustomed to negative values recently, but just checking.)
-Finally, does the negative CMC gimmick bring enough to the card to offset any bizarreness it creates? (see also: why evoke creatures were printed as creature cards and not sorcery cards)
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier
Think of it as Hand of Honor that gives up protection from black in favor of conditional first strike/bushido for your other dudes.
Oh I understand that it does nothing... similar to Spinal Parasite from Fifth Dawn that has -1/-1 p/t. Just some questions for you real quick just to define some things...
Accelerated Mutation... creature gets -1/-1?
Ad Nauseum... you lose nothing?
Clash... you lose.
Okay here's where I call "broken". AEther Vial
Ancient Ooze dies.
Augury Adept you gain nothing?
Then other things I suggest... don't make any Artifacts with this (because of Tinker Mage and Reconstruct like effects) and don't make any Spirits (or you'll make Soulshift playable). Interestingly enough, these guys get passed Chalice of the Void really nicely. And whatever "format" this would exist in needs to ban Protean Hulk.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Ad Nauseam gets this for free; losing -1 life doesn't do anything.
Yes, the downside of this bushidoing off of 0's is it also loses a clash against 0's.
AEther Vial is far from broken with this; to the contrary, since it's impossible to have -1 counters, you'll never be able to drop this with Vial. (A lot like the Chalice of the Void case you mention later.)
It does contribute -1/-1 to Ancient Ooze, so that dies if they're the only two creatures or alongside a single 1-drop.
Augury Adept is just like Ad Nauseam, and gaining -1 life does nothing.
Yes you can use Protean Hulk to search for this and a 7, or four of them and a 10. I contend that this doesn't improve the quality of existing Hulk packages.
There aren't any plans to include other negative mana symbols alongside this--after all, he loses some of his edge if he's not the only negative-cost creature in Magic! Still, at least with this guy the "cheating" effects aren't all that big of an advantage. So you can Ranger of Eos for a 2/2 guy that's effectively a 2. Ooh, aah.
My question is, how does this work in terms of flavour? As in, why would a card have a negative cost? Existing abstract mechanics at least make sense to players; 'kicking' a spell means pumping it up with extra mana for a greater effects, and 'cumulative upkeep' means you have to keep expending one resource to keep something strong. Hybrid mana of the 2/C variety even makes sense, as you can either use a very special kind of mana, or use any kind but at greater cost to you.
This mechanic makes no sense to me whatsoever, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. just because you can do something, doesn't always mean you should.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
Meanwhile for most other purposes, it works like all the other bear-sized soldiers out there.
In short: the {-3} is like a sigil that extends outside the art box.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Yes, that's a better explanation.
However, I don't see why this couldn't be done with something like:
Miniscule 3 (Whenever a spell or ability checks the converted mana cost of ~, subtract 3 from that number.) or something like that.
Now that I think about it, the idea of having "mini" creatures and spells could work for a plane like segovia (the tiny one)
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
In the flavor you're describing, then, the Planeswalker summoning said guy should have the negative mana cost, not the creature. The energy that's used to produce the guy is still the same, but the guy casting should perceive it as less (as the underdog explained in your statement)... I think you have a really strong concept, and a whole lot of design space... but your flavor seems really weak.
Thanks to DarkNightCavalier
Instead why not have it be a negative creature, inverted in many ways from other cards in the set. Similar to colorshifting in a way, but an example
What would the inverse of a progidal pyromancer be
The answer is a 1/1 with T: gain one life/prevent a damage ectect.
cards like that make alot more sense to me than just going He's an underdog
Accept the truth.
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
I think this is an interesting idea, but most of the time viridiancircle is probably right. Caring about low cmc is neat but doesn't really need the wacky new rules.
In fact, I don't think there are a lot of situations where you'd want your cards to have low/negative CMC, but there may be situations where a higher CMC is worth it (like pretty much all of the examples that have been mentioned). I could see how a few (not a lot) creatures like this might be helpful:
:3mana::symw::symw:
This costs less to cast as long as you control a plains.
Something that effectively costs only WW but will always count as "5" for purposes of erratic explosion and the like.
Kill my protean hulk? *flips deck onto table*
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch | Maga, Traitor to Mortals | Mayael the Anima | Rafiq of the Many | Rhys the Redeemed
Sasaya, Oorochi Ascendant | Sygg, River Cutthroat | Thada Adel, Acquisitor | Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Negative Giant Growth -G
Instant
(Untap a Forest to pay -G.)
Target creature gains -3/-3 until the end of turn.