I already vented about it. Free CA/creatures at instant speed and gain a boatload of life for unmorphing. It's not like this format is full of board stalls. Oh wait...
I chose not to run it. I was running Jeskai with very little worth manifesting and with me having Dig Through Time, Ojutai, Outpost Siege, and Monastery Siege I thought I had a superior lategame anyways.
After opening mastery of the unseen in both my events, I came here because I knew this thread would be here and I wanted to agree. It's unbelievably good.
That said, I think I gained life from it once. And only once or twice was it the reason I won. More often it provided an expensive chump or two because I wanted to do other things.
I dunno, it's 6 mana before you get your first 2/2. Of course it's going to win a stalled out game by flooding the board with 2/2s but that's ignoring the downside that it's glacially slow against a tempo deck. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good, but not a real standout.
Also please try to remember that 99% of card evaluations for the next week or so are based on a very weird Sealed format with seeded packs AND weighted toward Fate Reforged -- a set no one is familiar with. Let's see what happens as an actual format shakes out before declaring this card "insane."
I opened two of them and opted to run one, which I think was a fine decision; it's pretty unexciting in the early game & if you don't have a lot of lands going late. Could certainly have been wrong in doing so, but I did not feel like it was quite as enormous of a bomb as many other posters ITT. We'll see when we have a little more experience with the format, I guess!
I dunno, it's 6 mana before you get your first 2/2. Of course it's going to win a stalled out game by flooding the board with 2/2s but that's ignoring the downside that it's glacially slow against a tempo deck. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good, but not a real standout.
Also please try to remember that 99% of card evaluations for the next week or so are based on a very weird Sealed format with seeded packs AND weighted toward Fate Reforged -- a set no one is familiar with. Let's see what happens as an actual format shakes out before declaring this card "insane."
This.
The card is fine, and it certainly goes up in value in a grindy format, but draft tends to reward tempo more than sealed, and this thing only really starts dominating at 8 mana. It's a fine card, but there are plenty of cards you can justify picking above it, even in it's own color (namely Valorous Stance).
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I'm leaning towards considering this a good card but not a great or very good card.
With 6 lands in play, which is usually pretty late in the game, would I rather create a 2/2 or do something else meaningful such as flip a morph or cast a costly spell? This can be great to put up a chump blocker every turn or to stack up 2/2s with the possibility of getting something great to flip up, but so much mana is required to be able to use its ability and cast a spell that in my view this card's value is conditional on getting to that point.
I am leaning towards thinking that the card is good since it can really shine in those situations but it may even be poor mid-game so I'm going to wait and see on this one.
Much of the value of these sorts of cards depends upon how good manifest is, which depends upon the value of having an unknown and the value of hitting the jackpot on manifesting a good creature. Reading between the lines of his comments I think that LSV values these things somewhat highly, and maybe I am underestimating the value of manifest, because just having vanilla 2/2s does not have much value in my view.
It's basically Heliod, God of the Sun that trades in "God mode" for being cheaper, gaining tons of life, making more relevant bodies, and being in a format where ground-and-pound combat is the name of the game. I can definitely see how it's great, but I'd imagine it's more of a sealed bomb than a draft one (though that remains to be seen).
the card advantage it creates can not be understated.
by turn 4 you are just making a 2/2 every turn and building up a full grip. by the time your opponent gives you a reason to just not make a 2/2 you will have answer to whatever they have.
a lot of players will misplay with it but you honestly just want to manifest until your opponent gives you a reason not to. don't just chump with your 2/2s either let them build up and make impossible for the opponent to attack. when they start holding back the game is over.
I dunno, it's 6 mana before you get your first 2/2. Of course it's going to win a stalled out game by flooding the board with 2/2s but that's ignoring the downside that it's glacially slow against a tempo deck. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good, but not a real standout.
Also please try to remember that 99% of card evaluations for the next week or so are based on a very weird Sealed format with seeded packs AND weighted toward Fate Reforged -- a set no one is familiar with. Let's see what happens as an actual format shakes out before declaring this card "insane."
Here's a way of thinking about it for you that might make you more positive about the card.
Casting a morph costs 3 mana, and uses a card from your hand. Mastery of the Unseen has an activated ability that is kinda equivalent to W: draw a card, then play it as a morph with flash.
It draws you a card for W. That's insane.
Your mana is always open on their turn, so you can be sandbagging a giant 'unmanifest' as combat trick too. Or a removal spell. Man, Mastery of the Unseen might even have constructed potential.
the card advantage it creates can not be understated.
by turn 4 you are just making a 2/2 every turn and building up a full grip. by the time your opponent gives you a reason to just not make a 2/2 you will have answer to whatever they have.
a lot of players will misplay with it but you honestly just want to manifest until your opponent gives you a reason not to. don't just chump with your 2/2s either let them build up and make impossible for the opponent to attack. when they start holding back the game is over.
Making a 2/2 every turn but doing nothing else requiring mana is not what I want to be doing. While you are doing that your opponent is hitting you with a good creature or three, and if any are fliers then you are completely out of luck unless you happen to manifest a flier or reach, plus your opponent is probably developing his board every turn putting out possibly good creatures much better than 2/2s. If you can do that for several turns and also answer their threats somehow, either through them having mostly crappy creatures which can't attack for much or by using removal (instead of manifesting for a turn) on their one good creature then that is a good gameplan but just making a 2/2s is often not what I want to be doing turns 4-8.
The life gain can help mitigate that, but in small amounts at first and it may be too little too late to make enough of a difference.
My comments are meant as a counterpoint to the "this card is great" camp, but even so I see that it could be a very good card or even great in some situations. The issue is how often those situations will occur, and I think that it's not a big percentage of the time. I may of course be very wrong, in my view it's a tough card to judge ahead of time.
I look at it that you will be manifesting a creature about 2/5 of the time and spells and lands the rest. As your opponent keeps building their presence with good creatures and drops Dromoka turn 5, you have a dead enchantment unless you are scrying to get the good stuff to the top and there isn't any scryng in Khans.
Your answers to their bombs have been manifested or the lands you need on T8 to cast your bombs are all 2/2 creatures.
It may be a good card for limited, but right now I am seeing it as too expensive to use continuously and would be much happier with Brave the Sands in my deck.
Sure, we're early in the format, but manifest is really annoying: a lot of times, it will sometimes be a 2/2 hidden land, but you can never be sure. When your opponent attacks with a manifest with open mana, it's always a gamble blocking. They get in a ton of free damage. Getting a manifest without
spending a card at instant speed for 4 mana is a great deal. If you play 14+ creatures, the lifegain can easily offset one opposite creature.
(Sure, sure, not that great against aggro mardu. Scissor, meet paper.)
Brave the sands really? This has no affect on the lands you draw, just the same as self mill has no effect on the quality of your next draw. You will still have plent of lands and spells to cast. This just gives you a very strong ability to sink excess mana into. Obviously the quality of the card goes up in decks where you have the ability to self bounce cards to get any bombs back. If you just have a solid well rounded deck this will be a late game all star on its own.
the card advantage it creates can not be understated.
by turn 4 you are just making a 2/2 every turn and building up a full grip. by the time your opponent gives you a reason to just not make a 2/2 you will have answer to whatever they have.
a lot of players will misplay with it but you honestly just want to manifest until your opponent gives you a reason not to. don't just chump with your 2/2s either let them build up and make impossible for the opponent to attack. when they start holding back the game is over.
Making a 2/2 every turn but doing nothing else requiring mana is not what I want to be doing. While you are doing that your opponent is hitting you with a good creature or three, and if any are fliers then you are completely out of luck unless you happen to manifest a flier or reach, plus your opponent is probably developing his board every turn putting out possibly good creatures much better than 2/2s. If you can do that for several turns and also answer their threats somehow, either through them having mostly crappy creatures which can't attack for much or by using removal (instead of manifesting for a turn) on their one good creature then that is a good gameplan but just making a 2/2s is often not what I want to be doing turns 4-8.
The life gain can help mitigate that, but in small amounts at first and it may be too little too late to make enough of a difference.
My comments are meant as a counterpoint to the "this card is great" camp, but even so I see that it could be a very good card or even great in some situations. The issue is how often those situations will occur, and I think that it's not a big percentage of the time. I may of course be very wrong, in my view it's a tough card to judge ahead of time.
I dont think you are taking into account that you are manifesting at instant speed. All your mana is up on your opponents turn if they force your hand you use a removal spell, if not you make a 2/2 at the end of their turn. Then when they attack you trade away all your free 2/2 land and non creature spells for their creatures or you flip up something bigger gain life and blow them out.
I got Mastery of the Unseen pick 3 in a FRF KTK KTK draft tonight and I dominated with it again, prioritized removal, fixing, and morphs after that pick. I went 7-1 in matches losing only 4 games in swiss and then went 2-1 2-0 3-1 in top 8. There is no way I'll get another one pick 3 at my local again. My deck was heavy white/black with RG morph splash.
The only two cards I had a some what hard time with was the Hexproof Dragon and the 7 cost artifact creature that has first strike and trample. I would also assume Temur Sabertooth could cause fits but I only played against one and I was able to exile it with Utter End the only time it hit the table. Even then I don't think I would have lost to it.
I only lost two games that I had it out and it was because I drew it turn 5. If I had it down turn 2 or 3 I would have won every game that it wasn't answered. One of the games I got it down late I probably would have won had my opponent not removed it with a boarded in Naturalize as soon as I played it.
I won a mull to 4 with it and three lands.
There was a player in the second POD that had one too, he made top 8 but lost in the 1st round. I was watching him earlier in the draft when I 2-0 quickly and he wasn't maximizing the value of the card.
This cards isn't as insane as Pack Rat because it is slower but if it is unchecked the game is over. Unlike pack rat though, wrath doesn't bother it.
It's basically Heliod, God of the Sun that trades in "God mode" for being cheaper, gaining tons of life, making more relevant bodies, and being in a format where ground-and-pound combat is the name of the game. I can definitely see how it's great, but I'd imagine it's more of a sealed bomb than a draft one (though that remains to be seen).
Heliod also gave vigilance while this doesn't and Heliod had synergy with constellation later.
Mastery of the Unseen VS Mastery of the Unseen is one of the most dreadful board states I have had the pleasure of playing through. But I was luckier than him on what I manifested, so managed to win out.
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Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That said, I think I gained life from it once. And only once or twice was it the reason I won. More often it provided an expensive chump or two because I wanted to do other things.
Also please try to remember that 99% of card evaluations for the next week or so are based on a very weird Sealed format with seeded packs AND weighted toward Fate Reforged -- a set no one is familiar with. Let's see what happens as an actual format shakes out before declaring this card "insane."
This.
The card is fine, and it certainly goes up in value in a grindy format, but draft tends to reward tempo more than sealed, and this thing only really starts dominating at 8 mana. It's a fine card, but there are plenty of cards you can justify picking above it, even in it's own color (namely Valorous Stance).
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With 6 lands in play, which is usually pretty late in the game, would I rather create a 2/2 or do something else meaningful such as flip a morph or cast a costly spell? This can be great to put up a chump blocker every turn or to stack up 2/2s with the possibility of getting something great to flip up, but so much mana is required to be able to use its ability and cast a spell that in my view this card's value is conditional on getting to that point.
I am leaning towards thinking that the card is good since it can really shine in those situations but it may even be poor mid-game so I'm going to wait and see on this one.
Much of the value of these sorts of cards depends upon how good manifest is, which depends upon the value of having an unknown and the value of hitting the jackpot on manifesting a good creature. Reading between the lines of his comments I think that LSV values these things somewhat highly, and maybe I am underestimating the value of manifest, because just having vanilla 2/2s does not have much value in my view.
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by turn 4 you are just making a 2/2 every turn and building up a full grip. by the time your opponent gives you a reason to just not make a 2/2 you will have answer to whatever they have.
a lot of players will misplay with it but you honestly just want to manifest until your opponent gives you a reason not to. don't just chump with your 2/2s either let them build up and make impossible for the opponent to attack. when they start holding back the game is over.
Here's a way of thinking about it for you that might make you more positive about the card.
Casting a morph costs 3 mana, and uses a card from your hand. Mastery of the Unseen has an activated ability that is kinda equivalent to W: draw a card, then play it as a morph with flash.
It draws you a card for W. That's insane.
Your mana is always open on their turn, so you can be sandbagging a giant 'unmanifest' as combat trick too. Or a removal spell. Man, Mastery of the Unseen might even have constructed potential.
Making a 2/2 every turn but doing nothing else requiring mana is not what I want to be doing. While you are doing that your opponent is hitting you with a good creature or three, and if any are fliers then you are completely out of luck unless you happen to manifest a flier or reach, plus your opponent is probably developing his board every turn putting out possibly good creatures much better than 2/2s. If you can do that for several turns and also answer their threats somehow, either through them having mostly crappy creatures which can't attack for much or by using removal (instead of manifesting for a turn) on their one good creature then that is a good gameplan but just making a 2/2s is often not what I want to be doing turns 4-8.
The life gain can help mitigate that, but in small amounts at first and it may be too little too late to make enough of a difference.
My comments are meant as a counterpoint to the "this card is great" camp, but even so I see that it could be a very good card or even great in some situations. The issue is how often those situations will occur, and I think that it's not a big percentage of the time. I may of course be very wrong, in my view it's a tough card to judge ahead of time.
Your answers to their bombs have been manifested or the lands you need on T8 to cast your bombs are all 2/2 creatures.
It may be a good card for limited, but right now I am seeing it as too expensive to use continuously and would be much happier with Brave the Sands in my deck.
Sure, we're early in the format, but manifest is really annoying: a lot of times, it will sometimes be a 2/2 hidden land, but you can never be sure. When your opponent attacks with a manifest with open mana, it's always a gamble blocking. They get in a ton of free damage. Getting a manifest without
spending a card at instant speed for 4 mana is a great deal. If you play 14+ creatures, the lifegain can easily offset one opposite creature.
(Sure, sure, not that great against aggro mardu. Scissor, meet paper.)
I dont think you are taking into account that you are manifesting at instant speed. All your mana is up on your opponents turn if they force your hand you use a removal spell, if not you make a 2/2 at the end of their turn. Then when they attack you trade away all your free 2/2 land and non creature spells for their creatures or you flip up something bigger gain life and blow them out.
I got Mastery of the Unseen pick 3 in a FRF KTK KTK draft tonight and I dominated with it again, prioritized removal, fixing, and morphs after that pick. I went 7-1 in matches losing only 4 games in swiss and then went 2-1 2-0 3-1 in top 8. There is no way I'll get another one pick 3 at my local again. My deck was heavy white/black with RG morph splash.
The only two cards I had a some what hard time with was the Hexproof Dragon and the 7 cost artifact creature that has first strike and trample. I would also assume Temur Sabertooth could cause fits but I only played against one and I was able to exile it with Utter End the only time it hit the table. Even then I don't think I would have lost to it.
I only lost two games that I had it out and it was because I drew it turn 5. If I had it down turn 2 or 3 I would have won every game that it wasn't answered. One of the games I got it down late I probably would have won had my opponent not removed it with a boarded in Naturalize as soon as I played it.
I won a mull to 4 with it and three lands.
There was a player in the second POD that had one too, he made top 8 but lost in the 1st round. I was watching him earlier in the draft when I 2-0 quickly and he wasn't maximizing the value of the card.
This cards isn't as insane as Pack Rat because it is slower but if it is unchecked the game is over. Unlike pack rat though, wrath doesn't bother it.
Heliod also gave vigilance while this doesn't and Heliod had synergy with constellation later.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Heliod was also in a much faster format.