Now that both LSV and PV have today posted (on ChannelFireball.com) that they believe Sandsteppe Outcast is the best common in FRF, what do you think? I have seen a few comments on other threads from earlier this week but I figured this card could use its own thread as the potential "best common in FRF."
I think it's fine but nothing special. A 1/1 flier is okay but really not a big deal in my view, and a 2/1 is certainly not a big deal. Getting two sub-standard creatures for 3 mana seems okay but I can't see how this is the best common in the set. I probably need to re-evaluate my view, though.
I think the versatility is a big deal. If it was just always the 'bird' mode it would just be a Seller of Songbirds with a more aggressive body (which in itself would be pretty awesome given the importance of 2 power in a format with morphs and manifests - the main body trades with morphs effectively leaving you the bird as a freebie). But that fact that you can, if the situation merits, make it not only a 3/2 creature for 3, but a creature that has a +1/+1 counter on it in a format full of creatures that give creatures with +1/+1 counters on them extra abilities, is noteworthy too. And Warrior tribal in a format where it matters, too.
It may not be the best common in sealed this weekend, but I could definitely see it being the best FRF common in FRF-KTK-KTK draft.
It's the best of a pretty weak lot, and only by a small amount. It's not exactly Triplicate Spirits.
For example, I think this is a little worse than [card]Mardu Hordechief[/c]. If whisperer had 1 power instead of 0 it might be close to #1.
I think you could argue that the W/B common instant removals might be an earlier pick but not so good in multiples. The enemy colored dual commons seem, on average, pretty good but the color requirements probably downgrade them compared to this and the other top monocolored commons.
While I'm not confident in my abilities at analyzing cards for Limited before playing them, this is how I see it:
It has the same use as Highland Game and Wetland Sambar: killing Morphs for cheap, or at least dissuading attacking (or getting beats in early, but at 2W, this card probably won't), but it gives you a 1/1 to Bolster or what have you.. It ALSO has a use as an Abzan card, where a +1/+1 counter can give it flying, lifelink, etc... It ALSO is a Warrior, which is a strategy that people play quite a lot.
It's got the versatility to land into basically every deck that runs white. Is it the best common? I don't know. But it's EXTREMELY high on the list if it's not outright the best.
I like it a lot more than Hordechief, but that might just be because the decks I like to draft rarely trigger raid, especially not on turn 3. But I do think it's a better card unless you have 4+ 2 drops; it still trades with a morph, you don't need raid, and the spirit is much more relevant late game than the warrior token. Watcher of the Roost and Jeskai Windscout are very common threats that the spirit picks up for free, while the 1/1 without flying usually sits around unless you're a Trumpet Blast deck.
I like it a lot more than Hordechief, but that might just be because the decks I like to draft rarely trigger raid, especially not on turn 3. But I do think it's a better card unless you have 4+ 2 drops; it still trades with a morph, you don't need raid, and the spirit is much more relevant late game than the warrior token. Watcher of the Roost and Jeskai Windscout are very common threats that the spirit picks up for free, while the 1/1 without flying usually sits around unless you're a Trumpet Blast deck.
To be fair, one of the advantages of Mardu Hordechief is that it doesn't trade with morphs, it eats them.
Well, I was lucky enough to get 3 of them at the prerelease, and was fairly surprised by how they played. I generally found them to be a fairly defensive play, compared to other options that I had. Granted, the pre is not a normal sealed environment, but it was frankly blisteringly fast compared to what I normally see out of KTK. Outcast was still a good card and one I was happy to have, but I generally didn't find that I especially wanted to curve out with it. It was more of a card I wanted to play when I needed blockers to stay in a race. If the format were normally as fast as the prerelease was, I wouldn't put a lot of emphasis on drafting 3-drops in general highly at all. It would be a format where the 2-drop is king.
I also got 3. They were amazing against Mardu decks that were playing 1 toughness creatures and it was often a 2/1 that traded with a creature and left behind a 1/1 flier. Best common in the set, and it is better than most of the uncommons as well.
I had only 1, but I was really happy every time I cast it (and very said when I manifested it off a soul summons). In sealed, at least, the hype is real. This card is great. Can't imagine it being anything but a great common in draft too.
Well, I was lucky enough to get 3 of them at the prerelease, and was fairly surprised by how they played. I generally found them to be a fairly defensive play, compared to other options that I had. Granted, the pre is not a normal sealed environment, but it was frankly blisteringly fast compared to what I normally see out of KTK. Outcast was still a good card and one I was happy to have, but I generally didn't find that I especially wanted to curve out with it. It was more of a card I wanted to play when I needed blockers to stay in a race. If the format were normally as fast as the prerelease was, I wouldn't put a lot of emphasis on drafting 3-drops in general highly at all. It would be a format where the 2-drop is king.
It sounds to me like you had a fairly unusual prerelease experience. From what I saw, most decks were not fast/aggressive at all. I frequently saw games where nothing was cast until turn three or four, and I regularly hit 6+ mana to cast all the defensive stuff I wanted.
Granted, having two Outcasts in each of my pools to serve as two blockers in one helped with that, but I think that unless you open (or play against) a ridiculously aggressive pool it's going to be pretty common that you make it to the late game.
I was playing Jeskai and Mardu for the pre-releases I had and I played as many of the Dash goblins that I could. So T2 was the scout for 3, T3 was a scout for 3, T4 was a scout or 2 for 3-6 (or a heelcutter for 3 if I needed to get around a blocker), T5 was heelcutter and scout and by then I had enough mana to do what I needed for the rest of the damage.
By no means was my prerelease fast, but maybe people saw this and think it is fast.
I'm curious about your experiences playing with an against this card so far. There was quite a bit of pre-release hype about this guy, and though some caveats*^ are needed, so far I'm underwhelmed. None of the bodies created by this card are particularly threatening, and the "It trades with morphs!" arguments doesn't interest me much because that involves holding back a 2/1 on defense (I traded a morph for it a couple of times, but only on turns where my opponent was going to cast/did cast a War Flare or Trumpet Blast). Given that a generic 2/3 for 3 seems to shut down most aggro strategies in this format, it feels like the average morph is a much more time- and cost-effective turn 3 play, and the decks that can't interact with a 1/1 Spirit are few and far between (see: the discussion about Aven Skirmisher). This is no Seller of Songbirds, in other words, especially minus a mechanic that cares about your creature tokens and outside of a format where you might be consistently facing aggressive decks you can't laugh off.
Am I way off-base here? NB that I'm not saying the card is bad, per se, but that it's merely playable, and nowhere near the top common for the set. I'd be happy to take it about 7th-9th if I knew for sure that I was playing white at this point, but I can't imagine seeing one of these late and thinking, "Signal!" Is that wrong? Enlighten meeeeeeee.
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I've only played the release sealed of this set so far, but I played against this card in 3 of 4 rounds, twice against decks with multiple copies. I found as the day progressed that my particular deck feared a turn 3 morph much more than this card, but then, my U/R/w deck had plenty of fliers and tended to be aggressive in the air to begin with.
^
Also I took more or less the entire format of Khans off, so I may just have a warped idea of how Fate is likely to affect that format. And I do understand that sealed =! draft, natch.
Notes: Merged into the already existing SCD thread for Sandsteppe Outcast. –Sene
I agree that it's maybe not the best common in the set, but a 3/2 for 2 with the flexibility to occasionally be spread over two bodies is solidly above average if for no other reason than it fits into multiple decks well.
Also, it combos very well with arguably the best uncommon in the set temur sabertooth.
It's not a flashy card, but it's hard not to get value off it. It's not the sort of card that dominates games at all, but I can't actually think of anything else I'd rather be using a common to spend 3 mana on.
I actually don't like the card very much, from a design perspective, because it's boring, grindy value that's usually going to be better than more exciting things. A deck with 23 Outcasts is probably going to win the game against basically any deck I've seen in the format, barring amazing curve outs or exactly perfect rare answers like multiple Arcbonds, just because there's no great way to answer it economically. Even Pyrotechnics, which is probably going to be the best card in a lot of decks, only barely answers it efficiently, and even then only after hitting 5-mana.
It's an easy card to underestimate, since it only rarely has an especially significant upside and doesn't race very well, but none of that really matters much when there's probably nothing in your opponent's deck that's going to let your opponent get value off of it, basically ever, and you're going to be able to cast it essentially every game you draw it. That's true of essentially no other card in the set, especially not a 3-drop creature.
I agree that it's maybe not the best common in the set, but a 3/2 for 2 with the flexibility to occasionally be spread over two bodies is solidly above average if for no other reason than it fits into multiple decks well.
Also, it combos very well with arguably the best uncommon in the set temur sabertooth.
It costs three, but yes, it's very good. It's just a very efficient card that combos very well with a lot of the mechanics you'll have in a white deck (gives a nice flying body to bolster, triggers raid easily, gets buffed by outlast cards, works well with green bounce, gives two bodies for War Flare/Trumpet type decks, etc.). It's definitely more powerful in your average white FKK deck than Seller of Songbirds was in your average white RTR deck. Honestly, how many better common three mana creatures in recent sets for limited can you name?
I had the same thought about this card last week, it seems decent but not a top common, I opened a thread on this forum about it. I am inclined to trust the pros who say it is very good (for a common), and I guess I will find out when MtGO begins FRF-KTK-KTK drafts.
I haven't played with this yet, so I don't know for sure, but pros and limited "experts" misevaluate cards all the time before sets go live. It's tough to gauge relative value of commons until you've actually played a format, especially now that the removal they print at common tends to be severely overpriced and/or underpowered.
They very rarely evaluate cards that are as simple (and obviously full of value/upside) as this. They misevaluate cards that do unique things, need to find a home or be built around to be fantastic or only become good after a new archetype or deck is discovered. This is none of those - it's just pure value with no downside whatsoever that synergizes with multiple strategies white decks are always going to be running at least one of.
I do think the Limited Resources guys were a little too excited about Sandsteppe Outcast in their review. I agree with the OP that "trades with Morphs" is an overrated feature. More accurately, it holds Morphs at bay until they can be flipped up. Most of the time you're getting Wetland Sambar + Aven Skirmisher for 2W. Now, two bad cards for the investment of one card is a far better deal than either card by itself, but you're still getting a package of mediocre parts. You can hold that Morph at bay, but the Morph eventually turns into a monster while the Outcast stays a 2/1.
I dunno what others think but it feels like there's always only one choice you'll make 95% of the time. And that's the spirit token. At least Hooded Assassin feels like it could vary.
It could very well be white's best common in FRF though.
He's a fine card. I don't know how highly I'd take one but I'd always play it. A 2/1 can battle with morphs/manifest and while a 1/1 flyer isn't a lot every little bit of evasion damage adds up. He's also a warrior for any warrior synergies you pick up along the way. The split mode seems like it's going to be more useful than the 3/2 on average, but it's nice to have the flexibility if your opponent has a hill giant you need to trade with for instance.
I dunno what others think but it feels like there's always only one choice you'll make 95% of the time. And that's the spirit token. At least Hooded Assassin feels like it could vary.
It could very well be white's best common in FRF though.
The best use I had out of him was curving into outlast with him and having him automatically get the benefit. A 3/2 for 3 might just be average in limited, but a 3/2 with first strike or flying for 3? Definitely ahead of the curve. I curved the 2/1 first strike outlast guy into him and it was a beating and also managed to go Falconer into him+outlast the Falconer for a 3/2 flyer and 3/4 flyer on turn four.
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I think it's fine but nothing special. A 1/1 flier is okay but really not a big deal in my view, and a 2/1 is certainly not a big deal. Getting two sub-standard creatures for 3 mana seems okay but I can't see how this is the best common in the set. I probably need to re-evaluate my view, though.
It may not be the best common in sealed this weekend, but I could definitely see it being the best FRF common in FRF-KTK-KTK draft.
For example, I think this is a little worse than [card]Mardu Hordechief[/c]. If whisperer had 1 power instead of 0 it might be close to #1.
I think you could argue that the W/B common instant removals might be an earlier pick but not so good in multiples. The enemy colored dual commons seem, on average, pretty good but the color requirements probably downgrade them compared to this and the other top monocolored commons.
It has the same use as Highland Game and Wetland Sambar: killing Morphs for cheap, or at least dissuading attacking (or getting beats in early, but at 2W, this card probably won't), but it gives you a 1/1 to Bolster or what have you.. It ALSO has a use as an Abzan card, where a +1/+1 counter can give it flying, lifelink, etc... It ALSO is a Warrior, which is a strategy that people play quite a lot.
It's got the versatility to land into basically every deck that runs white. Is it the best common? I don't know. But it's EXTREMELY high on the list if it's not outright the best.
To be fair, one of the advantages of Mardu Hordechief is that it doesn't trade with morphs, it eats them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Granted, having two Outcasts in each of my pools to serve as two blockers in one helped with that, but I think that unless you open (or play against) a ridiculously aggressive pool it's going to be pretty common that you make it to the late game.
By no means was my prerelease fast, but maybe people saw this and think it is fast.
I'm curious about your experiences playing with an against this card so far. There was quite a bit of pre-release hype about this guy, and though some caveats*^ are needed, so far I'm underwhelmed. None of the bodies created by this card are particularly threatening, and the "It trades with morphs!" arguments doesn't interest me much because that involves holding back a 2/1 on defense (I traded a morph for it a couple of times, but only on turns where my opponent was going to cast/did cast a War Flare or Trumpet Blast). Given that a generic 2/3 for 3 seems to shut down most aggro strategies in this format, it feels like the average morph is a much more time- and cost-effective turn 3 play, and the decks that can't interact with a 1/1 Spirit are few and far between (see: the discussion about Aven Skirmisher). This is no Seller of Songbirds, in other words, especially minus a mechanic that cares about your creature tokens and outside of a format where you might be consistently facing aggressive decks you can't laugh off.
Am I way off-base here? NB that I'm not saying the card is bad, per se, but that it's merely playable, and nowhere near the top common for the set. I'd be happy to take it about 7th-9th if I knew for sure that I was playing white at this point, but I can't imagine seeing one of these late and thinking, "Signal!" Is that wrong? Enlighten meeeeeeee.
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^
Also, it combos very well with arguably the best uncommon in the set temur sabertooth.
I actually don't like the card very much, from a design perspective, because it's boring, grindy value that's usually going to be better than more exciting things. A deck with 23 Outcasts is probably going to win the game against basically any deck I've seen in the format, barring amazing curve outs or exactly perfect rare answers like multiple Arcbonds, just because there's no great way to answer it economically. Even Pyrotechnics, which is probably going to be the best card in a lot of decks, only barely answers it efficiently, and even then only after hitting 5-mana.
It's an easy card to underestimate, since it only rarely has an especially significant upside and doesn't race very well, but none of that really matters much when there's probably nothing in your opponent's deck that's going to let your opponent get value off of it, basically ever, and you're going to be able to cast it essentially every game you draw it. That's true of essentially no other card in the set, especially not a 3-drop creature.
It costs three, but yes, it's very good. It's just a very efficient card that combos very well with a lot of the mechanics you'll have in a white deck (gives a nice flying body to bolster, triggers raid easily, gets buffed by outlast cards, works well with green bounce, gives two bodies for War Flare/Trumpet type decks, etc.). It's definitely more powerful in your average white FKK deck than Seller of Songbirds was in your average white RTR deck. Honestly, how many better common three mana creatures in recent sets for limited can you name?
It could very well be white's best common in FRF though.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
The best use I had out of him was curving into outlast with him and having him automatically get the benefit. A 3/2 for 3 might just be average in limited, but a 3/2 with first strike or flying for 3? Definitely ahead of the curve. I curved the 2/1 first strike outlast guy into him and it was a beating and also managed to go Falconer into him+outlast the Falconer for a 3/2 flyer and 3/4 flyer on turn four.