I'm going to make a stickied thread for this. I haven't quite gotten down the way data should be graphed, so if people can offer suggestions, that would be nice. If you want to play with the data on your own, let me know and I can e-mail you the Excel file.
August-September-October 2010 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5987803&postcount=2
Mono Blue Control, Dev --> Established.
New Horizons, Proven --> Established.
4c CB, Proven --> Established.
Next Level Thresh(representing Threshold as best performing out of the group), need to make a Proven thread.
UBG Landstill(representing Landstill as the best performing out of the group), Established --> Proven.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
So I ran the meta numbers, and we usually do "The usual 3.75%+ Proven Sticky, 3.75-3% Proven, 3-2% Established Sticky, 2% Established breakdown doesn't work quite that well here."
But I want everyone's opinion before we do that. How do you want the primers broken down? Here's the raw data:
Delver Tempo 11.7816092
Maverick 8.045977011
Reanimator 7.327586207
Team America 6.25
ANT 5.747126437
UWx Stoneforge 5.387931034
Merfolk 4.382183908
High Tide 4.166666667
Bant Midrange 4.094827586
Combo Elves 3.879310345
Zoo 3.735632184
Burn 3.520114943
Dredge 3.304597701
Canadian Threshold 3.232758621
NO Bant 3.16091954
Counter-Thopter 2.370689655
UGR Cascade 2.298850575
Painted Stone 2.083333333
Sneakshow 2.083333333
Hive Mind 1.724137931
Eva Green 1.436781609
UGR Punishing Fire 1.221264368
Affinity 1.149425287
BW Stoneblade 1.149425287
Landstill 1.077586207
Deadguy Ale 0.933908046
Goblins 0.933908046
Stiflenought 0.790229885
NO RUG 0.646551724
Aggro Loam 0.574712644
UB Control 0.574712644
Welder MUD 0.502873563
Enchantress 0.431034483
What do you think should be the cutoff for established? What do you think should be the cutoff for developing? Discussion will last for 48 hours, then the moderators will make a decision taking the discussion into consideration.
***
Suggested by Morningstar:
I suggest 5% as the Proven Sticky threshold, then use intervals of 1.5% for the remaining categories:
3.5-5% Proven
2-3.5% Established Sticky
0.5-2% Established
This would leave 12 decks as Proven (6 of which stickied) and 20 decks as Established (7 of which stickied), which is close to the numbers we currently have and seems a reasonable representation of the metagame.
I also don't quite follow why you have Delver Tempo and Canadian Threshold as two distinct decks.
I would think that you either separate between RUG tempo (Canadian) and BUG tempo (Team America) or you put them together and Canadian is just one flavor of Delver Tempo.
__________________
Honestly, I've always thought that proven should be the top 5-8 decks. With the cut off being after top 5 decks, it's proven but not "stickied." More than 5 stickies feels too much and less than 5 seems narrow. Just my opinion for proven. Brainstorming for established sticky cut off but I think a good rule of thumb would be taking a % of the lowest (or highest) proven. Like anything within 15% of lowest proven makes established stickied.
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Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
How far back are the numbers going for this? These numbers look disproportionate. I know c_c used to go three months back. Or are we just ignoring the summer for obvious reasons.
In addition, some of these archetypes look like they can be combined, such as Delver Tempo and Canadian Thresh, since those decks are very similar.
These percentages represent the top 8 make up right?
How far back are the numbers going for this? These numbers look disproportionate. I know c_c used to go three months back. Or are we just ignoring the summer for obvious reasons.
In addition, some of these archetypes look like they can be combined, such as Delver Tempo and Canadian Thresh, since those decks are very similar.
These percentages represent the top 8 make up right?
These numbers are from post-Mental Misstep ban / post-Innistrad release.
Proven, Stickied:
Delver Tempo 11.7816092
Maverick 8.045977011
Reanimator 7.327586207
Team America 6.25
UWx Stoneforge 5.387931034
Proven:
ANT 5.747126437 (This has a slightly higher rate than UWx, but I'd put it here anyway).
Merfolk 4.382183908
High Tide 4.166666667
Bant Midrange 4.094827586
What are we calling Team America, btw? There seems to be some disagreement. Some people lump essentially every BUG deck under that category, others limit it to the specific deck that runs Goyf, Confidant, Tourach, Stifle, and Tombstalker.
We have two suggestions on the table: the one provided by Morningstar, and the one provided by Joshua D.
Any comments / questions / concerns?
All the recent Canadian Thresh decks run Delver. The difference is Nimble Mongoose and spell selection slightly. In fact, the differences are almost non-existent:
The problem is that Legacy is a very varied format, and many decks are fully developed and competitive but are underplayed.
I think that decks like Welder MUD, Aggro Loam or even Enchantress should have a place in the Established section. It certainly would make no sense to put them in Developing.
I completely agree with this.
As for the setup, I like JoshuaD's format, except I think the non-stickied established decks should stretch all the way down the list, and not just cut off at 2. Most of those decks are well past the developing stage and just don't belong in Developing. I also think that Belcher and Death & Taxes should be considered to be stuck into Established, as they've made Top 16 and are very well known, and not really developing any longer (the occasional 2-4 flex spot change isn't really development).
What are we calling Team America, btw? There seems to be some disagreement. Some people lump essentially every BUG deck under that category, others limit it to the specific deck that runs Goyf, Confidant, Tourach, Stifle, and Tombstalker.
Confidant and Tombstalker don't belong in the same deck. Tombstalker is for the more tempo-based variants, and Confidant is for the more control-based ones. Example: Stifle and Wasteland versions want Tombstalker, but Jace/No-Stifle versions want Confidant.
I don't think we should move any decks from established just because they didn't perform well. "Developing" does not mean "Tier 3" to me; it means ideas that are developing and can eventually be potential decks. For example, Maverick/Death and Taxes.
Edit: I'm waiting for the final weigh-in from two mods and a couple more users, then I'll make the announcement as to what will be going where.
Yea, I agree with everyone that itmakes sense to extend the "Established" part of my list to include the remainder of the 25 or 30 "B" or "C" level decks.
July-August-September 2010
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5883484&postcount=5
UW(x) and UBG Landstill, Proven --> Established.
Ichorid(Dredge). Established --> Proven.
August-September-October 2010
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5987803&postcount=2
Mono Blue Control, Dev --> Established.
New Horizons, Proven --> Established.
4c CB, Proven --> Established.
Next Level Thresh(representing Threshold as best performing out of the group), need to make a Proven thread.
UBG Landstill(representing Landstill as the best performing out of the group), Established --> Proven.
January-February 2011
February-March-April 2011
March-April-May 2011
April-May-June 2011
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Top 8 Placements, Archetype
Scores, Breakdown
Scores, Archetype
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Sources are: The Source, Eternal Central, The Council, and emidln's new database(which has pretty much everything from deckcheck before it went down).
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
MUC should be there. Its all over the place.
UUU - Go Go Gadget Ninjitsu! (casual)
GGG - Beatdown Elves (casual)
(G/R)(G/R)(G/R) - Progenitus/Elfball (legacy)
BBB - Crucible Pox (legacy)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) - Eva Green (legacy)
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Why not? Burn and Goblins have the Top 8 showings to support it.
While MUC has had a few good showings, it's not on the level to warrant a sticky.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I think Burn has earn its Sticky based on how it has consistently top 8'd in large events.
:EDH:
WR Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (HOLD/100) WR
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion (HOLD/100) WB
But I want everyone's opinion before we do that. How do you want the primers broken down? Here's the raw data:
Delver Tempo 11.7816092
Maverick 8.045977011
Reanimator 7.327586207
Team America 6.25
ANT 5.747126437
UWx Stoneforge 5.387931034
Merfolk 4.382183908
High Tide 4.166666667
Bant Midrange 4.094827586
Combo Elves 3.879310345
Zoo 3.735632184
Burn 3.520114943
Dredge 3.304597701
Canadian Threshold 3.232758621
NO Bant 3.16091954
Counter-Thopter 2.370689655
UGR Cascade 2.298850575
Painted Stone 2.083333333
Sneakshow 2.083333333
Hive Mind 1.724137931
Eva Green 1.436781609
UGR Punishing Fire 1.221264368
Affinity 1.149425287
BW Stoneblade 1.149425287
Landstill 1.077586207
Deadguy Ale 0.933908046
Goblins 0.933908046
Stiflenought 0.790229885
NO RUG 0.646551724
Aggro Loam 0.574712644
UB Control 0.574712644
Welder MUD 0.502873563
Enchantress 0.431034483
What do you think should be the cutoff for established? What do you think should be the cutoff for developing? Discussion will last for 48 hours, then the moderators will make a decision taking the discussion into consideration.
***
Suggested by Morningstar:
I suggest 5% as the Proven Sticky threshold, then use intervals of 1.5% for the remaining categories:
3.5-5% Proven
2-3.5% Established Sticky
0.5-2% Established
This would leave 12 decks as Proven (6 of which stickied) and 20 decks as Established (7 of which stickied), which is close to the numbers we currently have and seems a reasonable representation of the metagame.
I also don't quite follow why you have Delver Tempo and Canadian Threshold as two distinct decks.
I would think that you either separate between RUG tempo (Canadian) and BUG tempo (Team America) or you put them together and Canadian is just one flavor of Delver Tempo.
__________________
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
In addition, some of these archetypes look like they can be combined, such as Delver Tempo and Canadian Thresh, since those decks are very similar.
These percentages represent the top 8 make up right?
These numbers are from post-Mental Misstep ban / post-Innistrad release.
These percentages do represent the top 8.
Maverick has overshadowed Death and Taxes.
Edit: Canadian Threshold is a traditional temp Threshhold deck WITHOUT Delver of Secrets. Delver Tempo has Delver of Secrets.
We can combine the two...
Delver Tempo 11.7816092
Maverick 8.045977011
Reanimator 7.327586207
Team America 6.25
UWx Stoneforge 5.387931034
Proven:
ANT 5.747126437 (This has a slightly higher rate than UWx, but I'd put it here anyway).
Merfolk 4.382183908
High Tide 4.166666667
Bant Midrange 4.094827586
Established Stickied:
Combo Elves 3.879310345
Zoo 3.735632184
Burn 3.520114943
Dredge 3.304597701
Established:
NO Bant 3.16091954
Counter-Thopter 2.370689655
UGR Cascade 2.298850575
Painted Stone 2.083333333
Sneakshow 2.083333333
Any comments / questions / concerns?
All the recent Canadian Thresh decks run Delver. The difference is Nimble Mongoose and spell selection slightly. In fact, the differences are almost non-existent:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51144
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7118&iddeck=51698
I think these both represent Canadian Threshold.
I think both configurations are reasonable. Morningstar's version might be too broad honestly.
Also can the Reanimator OP be changed to my primer version I sent out about a week ago or should I just make a new thread?
Make a new thread.
Edit: PM me when it's made, with a link. I'll sticky it and retire the old one.
I completely agree with this.
As for the setup, I like JoshuaD's format, except I think the non-stickied established decks should stretch all the way down the list, and not just cut off at 2. Most of those decks are well past the developing stage and just don't belong in Developing. I also think that Belcher and Death & Taxes should be considered to be stuck into Established, as they've made Top 16 and are very well known, and not really developing any longer (the occasional 2-4 flex spot change isn't really development).
And, as an aside:
Confidant and Tombstalker don't belong in the same deck. Tombstalker is for the more tempo-based variants, and Confidant is for the more control-based ones. Example: Stifle and Wasteland versions want Tombstalker, but Jace/No-Stifle versions want Confidant.
Edit: I'm waiting for the final weigh-in from two mods and a couple more users, then I'll make the announcement as to what will be going where.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I agree there should not be a cutoff. If a deck made it in a tournament consistently, it deserves to be Established.
Reanimator thread will go up this evening. I'll PM you when I do it.