I've been working on this deck for a while, and recently decided to port it from Vintage to Legacy, as this should make it more competitive. (See http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=3752443 for the vintage version)
I've always been a fan of Bogardan Hellkite in my reanimator deck. The five damage is always useful, whether it is directed right at your opponent, clearing out creatures, or a mix of both. It "only" swings for 5, but that's plenty. I know this card has won me plenty of games.
I like Reya over Teneb. Teneb has to actually hit and you have to spend open mana to even have the ability resolve. Reya hits for a bit less, but you don't have to do anything for her ability to go off. Teneb can hit enemy graveyards of course, but odds are your graveyard is going to have the more enticing reanimation targets anyway (and you have animate dead to hit the enemy graveyard if you need it).
Maybe less competetive but Kaervek the Merciless is fun when someone is playing a storm combo deck if you can get him out quick enough. There are probably better solutions to beating a storm deck of course, but in casual games I've been a fan of him. It's fun against cheap aggro decks as welli f he gets out quick enough (for every creature they play they tend to lose a creature or just take damage to the face). It's more of a fun card though.
I've been working on retooling this deck for legacy play, and came to the conclusion that it is stronger without the red element. Here is where I am at right now:
I've been working on retooling this deck for legacy play, and came to the conclusion that it is stronger without the red element. Here is where I am at right now:
Why aren't you playing 4x Inkwell Leviathan? It's pitchable to FOW, It has shroud, trample and island walk all things that screw over most decks you'll face
Why aren't you playing 4x Inkwell Leviathan? It's pitchable to FOW, It has shroud, trample and island walk all things that screw over most decks you'll face
I would, but shroud means my own animate deads won't work...
Organized the creatures to make it more stable, but I'm still not sure how that will pan out. If nothing else, the dropouts are possible SB material. Considering adding bounce in the form of echoing truth or chain of vapor, but I think that's more SB than maindeck.
EDIT: didn't mean to double-post, sorry... replied to a cached version of the thread.
lol why would you listen to 4x inkwell leviathan? the strength of reanimators is that you have options for numerous situations and opponents. 4 of those does nothing for you. they dont deal damage instantly when it hits the board. multiples really don't matter. I suppose if you want things to work in intuition, fine. But Hellkite Overlord is a must. you will not get 8 instant damage out of nowhere from any other creature. And Phantom Nishoba is still a staple. Life gain is huge in reanimator decks. 8 life a pop from renimate hurts a lot.
And like what you said, animate deads wont work. And thats on your archangels as well. um...
...But Hellkite Overlord is a must. you will not get 8 instant damage out of nowhere from any other creature. And Phantom Nishoba is still a staple. Life gain is huge in reanimator decks. 8 life a pop from renimate hurts a lot.
Yes, dealing a ton of damage fast is key -- I think Hellkite O-lord is a 2x though. You want to have answers than sheer speed -- as NO creature guarantees an auto-win. This is not storm, you do not win automatically -- you'll need creatures that screw with the opponent (not necessarily the largest guys all the time).
Sphinx of the Steel Wind > Nishoba. No Contest. Sphinx has BETTER protection and evasion, a set amount of damage (unlike the phantom counters), and it's pretty nasty in and of itself. I'll take my higher quality 6/6 over the fragile 7/7.
With Alara Reborn, this would be my core. Not much to debate with these guys...
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath :: still the best target
1x Sundering Titan :: 2nd best critter to pull; almost always = GG if you pull it out ~turn 3
1x Empyrial Archangel :: not dying via damage is cool. A 5/8 with flying and shroud on top of that is just gravy
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind :: mythic for a reason
2x Hellkite Overlord:: fastest clock for you to establish. 3 hits and it's gaurenteed to be over. Potentially kills them in 2 hits if they run fetchlands, damage themselves, etc
That's 6 cards I'd pretty much classify as mandatory. Stuff like Inkwell Leviathan, Platinum Angel, etc are close but do not make the top-tier targets. You can definitely add them to your lists, but do not expect them to be a good call 100% of the time.
I'd run 4x Exhume + 4x Reanimate + 2x Animate Dead as the revival package. I am not sure what other cards to run.
Lastly, I think Legacy can go mono-black with Thoughseize and Unmask the main forms of protection. If you want another color, red is the smartest move (check my post in the T1 reanimator thread). In short, blue warps the deck into being more blue than it needs to be. Red gives better synergy overall (not to hate on good old intuition or FoW). I'd much rather run firestorm and gamble. You can also have Burning Wish in multiples in Legacy -- that's something definitely worth noting.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
@Warden I like that creature list, but I worry its too short... I had trouble drawing creatures to discard with 8 targets in there in the past... 6 seems a bit low.
Here's a quick monoblack version I threw together (It could be done much better than this... strongarm tactics is not very good, but its on my desk atm, so in it goes...)
I just want to clarify something: shroud does not cause enchantments to fall off. Once in aura is in play, it is no longer targeting the creature it is attached to. This is how auras that grant shroud work. Otherwise cards like Aspect of Mongoose would be the single least useful cards in existence. Protection does cause it to fall off, because protection and shroud prevent different effects.
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@Warden I like that creature list, but I worry its too short... I had trouble drawing creatures to discard with 8 targets in there in the past... 6 seems a bit low.
Here's a quick monoblack version I threw together (It could be done much better than this... strongarm tactics is not very good, but its on my desk atm, so in it goes...)
Cabal Therapy is so much better than Strongarm Tactics, especially if you're already running Putrid Imp. For that matter, they're probably better than your Thoughtseizes too, but the Tactics should be replaced first.
What are the sacklands in the MB version for? Just to take damage to make your matches vs burn quicker? The thinning they provide is mathematically insignificant unless you're running a deck like goblins and want your late game Goblin Ringleaders to hit more reliably, or if you run recursion like Crucible of Worlds. This deck doesn't want a late game.
I just want to clarify something: shroud does not cause enchantments to fall off. Once in aura is in play, it is no longer targeting the creature it is attached to. This is how auras that grant shroud work. Otherwise cards like Aspect of Mongoose would be the single least useful cards in existence. Protection does cause it to fall off, because protection and shroud prevent different effects.
My understanding is that animate dead does not target the creature until the creature is in play, when it becomes an aura.
(Ruling from 4/1/2008: If the creature card put into play has Protection from Black (or anything that prevents this from legally being attached), this won’t be able to attach to it. Then this will go to the graveyard as a State-Based Effect, causing the creature to be sacrificed. This is a change from recent functionality.)
Cabal Therapy is so much better than Strongarm Tactics, especially if you're already running Putrid Imp. For that matter, they're probably better than your Thoughtseizes too, but the Tactics should be replaced first.
What are the sacklands in the MB version for? Just to take damage to make your matches vs burn quicker? The thinning they provide is mathematically insignificant unless you're running a deck like goblins and want your late game Goblin Ringleaders to hit more reliably, or if you run recursion like Crucible of Worlds. This deck doesn't want a late game.
I draw far too many turn 5/6 lands otherwise in my experience. I may try it again without them, but the 1/2 life early makes little difference if my deck is working.
ide run 2 hellkite,2 akroma they are probably the best drops for reanimate considering ones an 8/8 and the other is just godly at life gain and damage both with haste. the worst thing is dropping a creature without haste is that they have another turn to kill it. inkwell and archangel have shroud so they can stand up to removal.
i personally like phantom nishoba over sphynx. nishoba is pretty much impervious to anything besides bounce and black death. same goes for sphynx. but you can also chump block a sphynx. if u block nishoba it is a 7/7 trampler its first time and only goes down 1/1 every time. also, if you do destroy a nishoba it reanimates back to a 7/7 and it just restarts with trampling again.
take it as you will but i prefer phantom nishoba a little more.
why hasn't anyone mentioned oversoul of dusk..it's a bit more impervious than most, though it would be harder to cast. It's only downside is that you can't animate dead it, but other than that, it is a 5/5 very difficult to remove guy.
why hasn't anyone mentioned oversoul of dusk..it's a bit more impervious than most, though it would be harder to cast. It's only downside is that you can't animate dead it, but other than that, it is a 5/5 very difficult to remove guy.
Very good point, I think Oversoul's inclusion depends on preference...
This is my list
I like 1x Garza Zol, Plague Queen and 1x Platinum Angel in that open slot. Platinum stops combo cold (if I didn't get my fast clocks out) and Garza is an underrated powerhouse. Some may prefer an extra Akroma, Razia, Emp Angel or Sphinx or Teneb. I do not feel Oversoul makes that much of an impact for me to sub it into my starting rotation of people. The only real "iffy" choices for me have been Plat. Angel and occassionally Angel of Despair. More times than not, AoD is like GG you cannot recover. She hits anything so that's a big plus.
If I had to change things, I'd drop out Platinum for another Emp Angel or another Sundering. I cannot emphasize how badass Titan is in today's meta. He pretty much eats the field's resources. Against stuff like Zoo, they scoop. Fighting Thresh (countering aside), he's a beast. Not to mention he's a big goofy 7/10 that if you manage to remove, nukes resources again. Sooooo crucial to run imo.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
mm gotta say i like oversoul except it can be champed easily. but not being able to bounced, black death, or burned makes it pretty unkillable. my meta runs swords of plowshare so i wouldnt use him but he seems viable.
i'm really annoyed by the new ruling on animate dead vs pro black.
mm gotta say i like oversoul except it can be champed easily. but not being able to bounced, black death, or burned makes it pretty unkillable. my meta runs swords of plowshare so i wouldnt use him but he seems viable.
i'm really annoyed by the new ruling on animate dead vs pro black.
Yea, Pro-black ruling hurts...and Oversoul isn't bad, it's just that it still suffers from removal like STP...
Then again if you really want to run it, you can go better (critter with a better effect) in Iridescent Angel.
Iridescent Angel > Oversoul of Dusk
For those who want a decent body and pro-color. Yea, it's smaller but it can't be targeted by anything and has pro-every color + flying.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
mmm i've always thought of running a realm razor in a reanimator deck. if you have enough mana out and another creature in the grave you can tap a black before it goes out and reanimate a another creature without fear of a bounce or counter.
as for a non land mana source ive always thought of running 4 lotus petal(i think they arent restricted). if you have a land and a lotus petal in hand you dont need a dark rit to reanimate first turn.
So basically...if the Child gets re-animated through the Mannequin, chances are, there isnt anything on the board you control and they probably do. So no matter what, he'll be going to the graveyard. So they're damned if they do, and damned if they dont.
So basically...if the Child gets re-animated through the Mannequin, chances are, there isnt anything on the board you control and they probably do. So no matter what, he'll be going to the graveyard. So they're damned if they do, and damned if they dont.
Makeshift Mannequin is awful; it costs far too much to play and it's too slow for Reanimator. You should be bringing a fatty out of your graveyard by turn 2-3. Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead, and Life // Death are much better reanimating options.
If you don't reanimate Child of Alara with Mannequin, then I don't think you're going to be particularly thrilled if Child of Alara eats Swords to Plowshares (very common in Legacy considering it's the best spot removal in the game) gets bounced by something like Echoing Truth, or his ability gets Stifled.
There are way better reanimation targets compared to Child of Alara.
Current considerations:
- Reya Dawnbringer vs Teneb, the Harvester
- Akroma, Angel of Fury vs one of the hellkite overlords
- maindeck chain of vapor?
Note - the vintage version played the following cards (1x each, all restricted in vintage) in place of the mystical tutors and ponders:
- wheel of fortune
- demonic tutor
- vampiric tutor
- brainstorm
- ponder
- entomb
4 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 City of Brass
Control
4 Duress
Utility
4 Hapless Researcher
3 Overmaster
Tutors / Card Control
2 Gamble
2 Mystical Tutor
4 Careful Study
4 Ponder
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead
Reanimation Targets
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Razia, Boros Archangel
1 Phantom Nishoba
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Teneb, the Harvester
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Darkblast
1 Avatar of Woe
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Shattering Spree
2 Tomod's Crypt
Please post any opinions / questions / suggestions. Thanks!
I like Reya over Teneb. Teneb has to actually hit and you have to spend open mana to even have the ability resolve. Reya hits for a bit less, but you don't have to do anything for her ability to go off. Teneb can hit enemy graveyards of course, but odds are your graveyard is going to have the more enticing reanimation targets anyway (and you have animate dead to hit the enemy graveyard if you need it).
Maybe less competetive but Kaervek the Merciless is fun when someone is playing a storm combo deck if you can get him out quick enough. There are probably better solutions to beating a storm deck of course, but in casual games I've been a fan of him. It's fun against cheap aggro decks as welli f he gets out quick enough (for every creature they play they tend to lose a creature or just take damage to the face). It's more of a fun card though.
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
Control (11)
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Hapless Researcher
4 Careful Study
3 Intuition
Reanimators (11)
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
3 Animate Dead
Reanimation Targets (9)
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Razia, Boros Archangel
1 Phantom Nishoba
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Inkwell Leviathan
- Reya Dawnbringer is ... pretty bad unless I can get another creature in my graveyard.
- There may be a better disruption card to play in place of Daze
- Creatures to consider: Verdant Force, Angel of Despair, Bogardan Hellkite
- More creature consistency? (if nothing else, I have an extra Phantom Nishoba
Why aren't you playing 4x Inkwell Leviathan? It's pitchable to FOW, It has shroud, trample and island walk all things that screw over most decks you'll face
I would, but shroud means my own animate deads won't work...
This also excludes necromancy or dance of the dead.
Of course I could still play makeshift mannequin, zombify, dread return and the like, but they cost a LOT more.
I suppose Shallow Grave would be playable in that slot...
Empyrial Archangel also can be pitched to FoW, and the extra damage redirect is useful... a tough decision IMO.
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
Utility (12)
3 Hapless Researcher
2 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
3 Intuition
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
Psuedo-Reanimators (3)
3 Show and Tell
Reanimation Targets (9)
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 Empyrial Archangel
4 Inkwell Leviathan
I needed more discard, hence the putrid imps. I could also use something more like Cabal Therapy in this role.
Show and Tell functions as an animate dead replacement, avoiding the graveyard altogether.
Organized the creatures to make it more stable, but I'm still not sure how that will pan out. If nothing else, the dropouts are possible SB material. Considering adding bounce in the form of echoing truth or chain of vapor, but I think that's more SB than maindeck.
EDIT: didn't mean to double-post, sorry... replied to a cached version of the thread.
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
Utility (16)
3 Hapless Researcher
2 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
2 Intuition
2 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
Psuedo-Reanimators (2)
2 Show and Tell
Reanimation Targets (8)
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Empyrial Archangel
4 Inkwell Leviathan
Think I've got this all worked-out... still wondering on the creature mix to use however.
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And like what you said, animate deads wont work. And thats on your archangels as well. um...
Yes, dealing a ton of damage fast is key -- I think Hellkite O-lord is a 2x though. You want to have answers than sheer speed -- as NO creature guarantees an auto-win. This is not storm, you do not win automatically -- you'll need creatures that screw with the opponent (not necessarily the largest guys all the time).
Sphinx of the Steel Wind > Nishoba. No Contest. Sphinx has BETTER protection and evasion, a set amount of damage (unlike the phantom counters), and it's pretty nasty in and of itself. I'll take my higher quality 6/6 over the fragile 7/7.
With Alara Reborn, this would be my core. Not much to debate with these guys...
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath :: still the best target
1x Sundering Titan :: 2nd best critter to pull; almost always = GG if you pull it out ~turn 3
1x Empyrial Archangel :: not dying via damage is cool. A 5/8 with flying and shroud on top of that is just gravy
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind :: mythic for a reason
2x Hellkite Overlord:: fastest clock for you to establish. 3 hits and it's gaurenteed to be over. Potentially kills them in 2 hits if they run fetchlands, damage themselves, etc
That's 6 cards I'd pretty much classify as mandatory. Stuff like Inkwell Leviathan, Platinum Angel, etc are close but do not make the top-tier targets. You can definitely add them to your lists, but do not expect them to be a good call 100% of the time.
I'd run 4x Exhume + 4x Reanimate + 2x Animate Dead as the revival package. I am not sure what other cards to run.
Lastly, I think Legacy can go mono-black with Thoughseize and Unmask the main forms of protection. If you want another color, red is the smartest move (check my post in the T1 reanimator thread). In short, blue warps the deck into being more blue than it needs to be. Red gives better synergy overall (not to hate on good old intuition or FoW). I'd much rather run firestorm and gamble. You can also have Burning Wish in multiples in Legacy -- that's something definitely worth noting.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I seem to have missed Sphinx of the Steel Wind in the ARB listings somehow... that is definitely a phantom nishoba upgrade...
@Warden I like that creature list, but I worry its too short... I had trouble drawing creatures to discard with 8 targets in there in the past... 6 seems a bit low.
Here's a quick monoblack version I threw together (It could be done much better than this... strongarm tactics is not very good, but its on my desk atm, so in it goes...)
10 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 dark ritual
reanimation targets (8)
1 akroma, angel of wrath
2 hellkite overlord
1 sundering titan
2 sphinx of the steel wind
1 empyrial archangel
1 inkwell leviathan
4 unmask
4 thoughtsieze
'discard' outlets (12)
4 putrid imp
4 buried alive
4 strongarm tactics
reanimation (10)
4 reanimate
4 exhume
2 animate dead
...and a B/R version...
2 swamp
4 badlands
4 blood crypt
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 dark ritual
reanimation targets (8)
1 akroma, angel of wrath
2 hellkite overlord
1 sundering titan
2 sphinx of the steel wind
1 empyrial archangel
1 inkwell leviathan
4 unmask
3 thoughtsieze
4 burning wish
'discard' outlets (10)
4 putrid imp
2 buried alive
4 firestorm
reanimation (9)
4 reanimate
3 exhume
2 animate dead
3 shattering spree
1 exhume
1 thoughtsieze
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Just a little suggestion, if you are gonna run anything but Hellkite as a two of it should be Akroma, not Sphinx. Haste is key.
I am John Galt.
What are the sacklands in the MB version for? Just to take damage to make your matches vs burn quicker? The thinning they provide is mathematically insignificant unless you're running a deck like goblins and want your late game Goblin Ringleaders to hit more reliably, or if you run recursion like Crucible of Worlds. This deck doesn't want a late game.
My understanding is that animate dead does not target the creature until the creature is in play, when it becomes an aura.
(Ruling from 4/1/2008: If the creature card put into play has Protection from Black (or anything that prevents this from legally being attached), this won’t be able to attach to it. Then this will go to the graveyard as a State-Based Effect, causing the creature to be sacrificed. This is a change from recent functionality.)
perhaps... lifegain is also key when playing with reanimates... the creature list is still worth playing around with at present.
Cabal therapy is definitely a valid replacement for strongarm tactics. Another card I've been considering is Sickening Dreams.
I draw far too many turn 5/6 lands otherwise in my experience. I may try it again without them, but the 1/2 life early makes little difference if my deck is working.
i personally like phantom nishoba over sphynx. nishoba is pretty much impervious to anything besides bounce and black death. same goes for sphynx. but you can also chump block a sphynx. if u block nishoba it is a 7/7 trampler its first time and only goes down 1/1 every time. also, if you do destroy a nishoba it reanimates back to a 7/7 and it just restarts with trampling again.
take it as you will but i prefer phantom nishoba a little more.
--welt
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Very good point, I think Oversoul's inclusion depends on preference...
This is my list
2x Hellkite Overlord
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Sundering
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Sphinx of the Steelwind
1x Angel of Despair
2x OPEN
I like 1x Garza Zol, Plague Queen and 1x Platinum Angel in that open slot. Platinum stops combo cold (if I didn't get my fast clocks out) and Garza is an underrated powerhouse. Some may prefer an extra Akroma, Razia, Emp Angel or Sphinx or Teneb. I do not feel Oversoul makes that much of an impact for me to sub it into my starting rotation of people. The only real "iffy" choices for me have been Plat. Angel and occassionally Angel of Despair. More times than not, AoD is like GG you cannot recover. She hits anything so that's a big plus.
If I had to change things, I'd drop out Platinum for another Emp Angel or another Sundering. I cannot emphasize how badass Titan is in today's meta. He pretty much eats the field's resources. Against stuff like Zoo, they scoop. Fighting Thresh (countering aside), he's a beast. Not to mention he's a big goofy 7/10 that if you manage to remove, nukes resources again. Sooooo crucial to run imo.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
i'm really annoyed by the new ruling on animate dead vs pro black.
Yea, Pro-black ruling hurts...and Oversoul isn't bad, it's just that it still suffers from removal like STP...
Then again if you really want to run it, you can go better (critter with a better effect) in Iridescent Angel.
Iridescent Angel > Oversoul of Dusk
For those who want a decent body and pro-color. Yea, it's smaller but it can't be targeted by anything and has pro-every color + flying.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
10 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 dark ritual
reanimation targets (8)
1 akroma, angel of wrath
2 hellkite overlord
2 sundering titan
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 empyrial archangel
1 angel of despair
4 unmask
3 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 putrid imp
4 buried alive
reanimation (11)
4 reanimate
4 exhume
3 animate dead
15 ???
any more suggestions/ variants/etc?
as for a non land mana source ive always thought of running 4 lotus petal(i think they arent restricted). if you have a land and a lotus petal in hand you dont need a dark rit to reanimate first turn.
So basically...if the Child gets re-animated through the Mannequin, chances are, there isnt anything on the board you control and they probably do. So no matter what, he'll be going to the graveyard. So they're damned if they do, and damned if they dont.
I like Turtles
Makeshift Mannequin is awful; it costs far too much to play and it's too slow for Reanimator. You should be bringing a fatty out of your graveyard by turn 2-3. Reanimate, Exhume, Animate Dead, and Life // Death are much better reanimating options.
If you don't reanimate Child of Alara with Mannequin, then I don't think you're going to be particularly thrilled if Child of Alara eats Swords to Plowshares (very common in Legacy considering it's the best spot removal in the game) gets bounced by something like Echoing Truth, or his ability gets Stifled.
There are way better reanimation targets compared to Child of Alara.