With Tarmogoyf clearly identified as one of the best creatures ever printed, and Threshold prepared to accept it better than any other deck in the format (with little to no change to its existing gameplan btw), there can be little argument that this is THE deck to beat in Legacy right now. Ditto all of this for Ponder.
As a designer, Threshold is the number one deck that I know I will be facing. Unfortunately (for me, atleast) there is no particular category of cards, or even a strategy that beats it. This is one of the greatest strengths of the deck. And because it is such a generalist, relying on a variety of tactics to gain advantage, it can be adapted easily, unlike something like Goblins which has a clear upper limit.
The core of Threshold (not a particularly descriptive title any more) is the same for every build, but there are a lot of really good builds available right now. In fact, one exists for every possible 3-color combination. There is even a 4-color version (UGWR - which I am skipping due to lack of reliable new data) and a 2-color one (UG). I am going to list them in order of popularity since making a statement about which version is better is about as easy as explaining why Britney Spears thinks she is qualified to write this book on raising children she is apparently planning.
All Threshold decks have an extremely good gameplan against combo of any sort. They will thwart the first few maneuvers any opposing deck makes while simultaneously building a small army of undercosted, hard to deal with creatures. Since combo basically lives and dies on the first few turns, this typically results in the combo deck having to make an attempt to go off prematurely under the stress of further disruption and lethal damage on its way.
Amongst other decks, pure control decks in mono-blue are modestly effective against the white build, and BGW control decks can usually get the better of all of them. And frankly, midranged pure aggro decks like Survival-Advantage (usually just called Survival lately) can match up decently against Threshold. But these are mostly fringe decks which make up a tiny percentage of the field. In fact, the most compelling reason to play these decks is their positive Threshold matchup. Where Threshold reigns supreme is in the aggro-control arena. It's variety of search spells (which keep getting better), counters, removal, and creatures (which keep getting better) are the best in every category. And they all work together with no major glitches, assisting each other by way of side effect. Other aggro-control decks incorporate some of these attributes to various degrees of success. But when facing Threshold, they will all be tasked with an uphill battle since it has all of them. Aggro-control is the dominant archetype in Legacy, and will be for as far as the horizon. So Threshold isn't going anywhere.
To Counterbalance or not? It's hard to say. The advantages are excellent, especially against opposing aggro control and combo since the cards are similar in cost, and occasionally name. But these are already good matchups, and between three of these and the required not-quite-as fast-as-blue Sensei's Divining Top, it can weaken the tighter matchups. In general, I have found that the longer your matches, the better Counterbalance becomes. I would love to see well-thought arguments in favor or against.
White Threshold
This is a very control-oriented version. You can add the older tech of Meddling Mage if you are in a meta you know well. Notice the highly varied counter suite. Daze and Spell Snare in the same deck can be very frustrating for opponents.
Red Threshold
Below is an example of a much more aggressive version. Red is splendid in this role, as the assortment of direct damage gives it remarkable reach for a deck that still has plenty of search and control. Winter Orb from the board helps out a lot against those nasty board control decks.
UG Threshold
The Blue-Green version lacks creature control to a significant degree. However, it makes up for that with the added Werebears, and extra early disruption in the form of Stifle and 4 Spell Snares. Plus, with only two colors, Wasteland is a smart inclusion for even more delaying tactics. It's perfect against combo. Bring in the Counterbalances against control.
Black Threshold
This version has a lot of card advantage. Dark Confidant is a game winner quite often. But take extra care not to reveal Force of Will or *gulp* Tombstalker. It should do especially well against control. The single Tombstalker may seem a bit random, but I have found that this is one of the best cards in here, and with all the search available, just right at one.
Some additional observations:
- I like Engineered Explosives a lot in my Threshold decks. Consider splashing just one ala Mr. Nightmare, or up to three if you can expect to see plenty of Empty the Warrens or aggro.
- If you like Control Magic over cards like Threads of Disloyalty and Vedalken Shackles, that's fine. Just find room for that eighteenth land to accomodate it.
- Goblins has fallen out of favor due to reality or perception. Whatever the reason, Predict is simply better than Mental Note these days. Look for chances to gain card advantage like this a little at a time in your build since the days of the Lackey are through. A strong end game via card advantage is a better focus than an instant answer for a 1/1.
- Don't Force of Will that turn one Tormod's Crypt without being certain that you can't otherwise handle it. It works best against you coming from highly aggressive decks, and when you are not holding a Tarmogoyf. It is bound to be overused for awhile. Just consider that.
- Stifle is one of the best anti-combo measures available at the moment. It is also a fetchland hoser and general nuissance. Give it due consideration for your sideboard.
Couple of points I'd like to make:
1) 16 lands in the UGr build is too risky. I would add the additional fetch to go up to 17.
2) I notice the lack of Stifles in the UGr and UGw builds. Any particular reason besides lack of room?
On a off topic note: It's Lynn Spears, Britney's mom, who's writing the "parenting" book, but your reasoning still stands.
Good points. I changed the Werebear to a Tarmo and fired my copy editor. I happen to think that Stifle is one of the best cards in the format right now. Where they are missing, it is because I am not as experienced as the people who are pursuing the deck without it. It is certainly open for debate.
Her mom is writing the book? That may even be worse.
Next on our list of books: "How to stay a Virgin" by Paris Hilton.
ROFLMAO :D.
On topic: I'm a big fan of Stifle as well. It's amazing how many applications it has (Fetches, Deeds, opposing Wastelands, just off the top of my head). As with the current UGr list, I would first take out 1x Predict for the 4th Strand.
I really like CounterTop combo, and I would personally take out the Jets and the Repeals for them. I'll try out the current list first; never really though about Repeal for this deck.
YuanTi,
I have come to much of the same conclusion as you on the UBG Threshold. I have found the following:
-The deck should lean more towards a Gro style than a Threshold style deck.
-Nimble Mongoose is probably the weakest creature, and I usually replace it with either Werebear or Quirion Dryad. Making Dark Confidant the weakest creature really says something for a deck.
-Tombstalker and Force of Will can be risky with Dark Confidant.
-Sensei's Divining Top is a great inclusion, as is a 7th fetchland.
-Counterbalance is a strong card, and while not usually main, I almost always have 3 in the sideboard, and it works well if you have SDT main.
-Gastly Demise is more situational than Smother, but it isn't stopped by Spell Snare. I also really like running 2 Darkblasts, specially with SDT.
-Deathmark has seen the main on nights when I've noticed too many Threshold or Gro decks.
-Duress in the main is really good against almost all decks, but if wasteland is found often in your meta, I would opt against it.
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I still feel like a Gro style deck is better overall. I will share my newest list (I finally foiled out every card that is available in foil, by the way. Foil Tarmogoyfs make me feel like a real man ;))
This is the only deck I play anymore. I sold, or am in the process of selling, every Magic card I own except for these 75. I won a Meandeck Open with this list about two months ago (with Serum Visions instead of Ponder of course). And the Meandeck Open had 3 members of Meandeck playing in it, including Steve "Greatest Eternal Player Ever" Menendian. I believe my list is great against the format right now (and against other Threshold/Gro decks). I hope you guys will give Dryad a try! She's just the stone cold nuts with the new cantrips. With Ponder and Opt in my new list, it's not uncommon in the lategame to chain 4 or 5 cantrips together in one turn and swing with a huge Dryad.
Lots of love,
MD
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I just ran our first legacy tournament this monday just gone (unsanctioned, 10 proxies otherwise no chance of getting the players!).
I played UGr threshold, and while I was generally really happy with the maindeck (I just require more practice playing it, since goldfishing is next to useless), my side was a complete mess, rarely using any of it.
I came 5th from 12 - but didn't play against some of my easiest match-ups (notably 2 land belcher which won).
I must admit, I am a bit of a loss with the cantrips - as you can see I ran a wide mix - in part so I could get a feel for each of them. Other than that I reckon the maindeck is reasonably standard.
Playing threshold I did feel that mental note helped, but then I wasn't running predict, which from the lists posted is clearly more efficient (especially if I run the top + counterbalance 'combo' from the side), but what of the rest? Serum visions I'll be happy to drop, didn't really achieve anything that the others wouldn't do.
As far as sideboard, I think I will probably change it to something like:
If you are going to run Opt, why not just run Sleight of Hand instead since it lets you look at 2 and some additional sorceries to pump up Goyf. Maybe split them 2/2
Also, how helpfull was the singeton Forest with only 1 Fetch land to obtain it? Seems like you should be running at least 3 Wooded Foothills. Is this because you only own 1?
Please use the edit button rather than Double Posting. - YuanTi
I still feel like a Gro style deck is better overall. I will share my newest list (I finally foiled out every card that is available in foil, by the way. Foil Tarmogoyfs make me feel like a real man ;))
This is the only deck I play anymore. I sold, or am in the process of selling, every Magic card I own except for these 75. I won a Meandeck Open with this list about two months ago (with Serum Visions instead of Ponder of course). And the Meandeck Open had 3 members of Meandeck playing in it, including Steve "Greatest Eternal Player Ever" Menendian. I believe my list is great against the format right now (and against other Threshold/Gro decks). I hope you guys will give Dryad a try! She's just the stone cold nuts with the new cantrips. With Ponder and Opt in my new list, it's not uncommon in the lategame to chain 4 or 5 cantrips together in one turn and swing with a huge Dryad.
Lots of love,
MD
Scans of the pimpness? Just by looking at the list, it looks good. Might want to consider changing up the fetch package a bit: maybe 2 each of the blue ones and 3 foothills?
@Avatar of Light: I tried Red Thresh out a lot this past weekend. You were right.
-1 Predict
+1 Flooded Strand
Glad it worked out for you. 17 lands seems to be the norm in most Thresh decks. Also, 4x Predict seems a little redundant sometimes (although with setup +2 good stuff is always nice).
Wasteland doesn't see much play in my meta, so I usually don't have to worry about fetching basics. If I know my opponent is playing Wastelands, it's usually not too difficult to find either the Forest or the Foothills with a cantrip or two. It's true I only own one foil Foothills (I could afford several playsets of foil ones if I really wanted to), but it's been a fine fetch mix for me. Perhaps if people start playing more decks that run Wasteland, I'll ebay a few more Foothills.
2 Sleight of Hand/2 Opt seems like a good idea. I like that Opt is a cheap and fast (instant speed) way to pump Dryad, but I'll give that suggestion a try.
I don't have a scanner, so it will be hard to post pics of the pimpage. Maybe I'll take some camera phone pics, but it won't do the deck justice. Do you just want to wait until I get beta duals to see the deck?
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@Kabal - thanks for the thoughts. The forest is in because actually I don't own any wooded foothills (as in, it should be fine, but I forgot about it when building) - was pretty stupid of me not to notice this, so I reckon I'll get my hands on a few.
Off the top of my head I think the missing card was another counterspell (worth swapping directly for the daze?).
Will change up the cantrips as suggested and give it a whirl.
BTW wanted to point out that I found the stifles to be underwhelming - was wondering if going down to 2 maindeck might not be a problem and if so, what to put in the slot?
@MD don't wait, stick up pics! Maybe you should go back to Rav duals just to add more foiliness - but that would be stupid
Spell snare VS daze - thoughts? I could go either way really, so interested to hear from people with actual experience of the two.
or vica versa, without affecting the deck much but making it more resilient to graveyard hate.
I actually like mental note, and not so much for it's graveyard filling ability (which never hurts), but more because it's an instant at U - it gives me something to do with my wasteland'ed / rishadan port'ed lands (which is why I list opt as a possibility - the cost of predict puts me off slightly - it looks like it works best when chained with another cantrip that stacks the top of the library).
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DCI Level 2 Judge.
Currently playing: Mono White Control.
You are the only one I have seen other than myself that runs wasteland in the UBG Threshold. I run a slight change to the spells I run in the main as well as a slight change in the mana base as well.
It is more designed for heavy wasteland and a land distruction meta, not to mention that Extirpate is played, and losing all Tropicals is the best way lose if you can't get another green source. You'll notice that I do not have a basic swamp. I splash black for Dark Confidant for the most part. I use other forms of removal than black, and in the versions that do run black removal, I run a basic swamp in place of an Underground Sea.
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I have been considering the application of Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance. Some builds run the pair in the main, while some in the board.
I am curious: What do you board it in against if it is in your board? Very often it is dead ~ while other times it wins the game.
If you look at that lists from GenCon, almost all of the Thresh lists in the top 32 had it in their board...
It has always been far to unreliable for me...
Well, you said it yourself, it all depends on what the opponent is playing. Most storm combo runs a bunch of 1&2 mana rituals and tutors, not too mention 0-cost artifact mana so it is a definite bring in there, while against stax you will almost never hit anything, so it's dead. Basically, you figure out which decks play a lot of important spells that are in the 0-2 cost range, like the one you play.
Mostly, you should be able to figure out what the opponent is playing during game 1, and then decide from there once you have a partial decklist from what they played.
Is goyf the reason Thresh doesn't run mongrel and fanatics?
Neither of those are decent threats on their own; one of which also requires you to dip heavily into card disadvantage unless you specifically gear your deck towards that. Even before Goyf, Werebear was just better than both of those.
The discussion of running Counterbalance in the sideboard vs the main depends on meta really.
I believe that running Sensei's Divining Top in the main as a 2 of is a good way to open the sideboard for more cards and that it is useful with Dark Confidant at any time, not just after sideboard.
Counterbalance is really good against other Threshold Decks, Combo Decks, and Burn Decks, other than that, you can usually win without it.
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So far i like the build, havent gotten to playtest it too much yet however.
Stifle+Needle wrecks havoc against mana bases when i decide to, thought about possibly putting 3 wasteland in the SB.
The single Counterbalance in the board is generally found by mid-game with the cantrip, shuffle, and top engine.
As a designer, Threshold is the number one deck that I know I will be facing. Unfortunately (for me, atleast) there is no particular category of cards, or even a strategy that beats it. This is one of the greatest strengths of the deck. And because it is such a generalist, relying on a variety of tactics to gain advantage, it can be adapted easily, unlike something like Goblins which has a clear upper limit.
The core of Threshold (not a particularly descriptive title any more) is the same for every build, but there are a lot of really good builds available right now. In fact, one exists for every possible 3-color combination. There is even a 4-color version (UGWR - which I am skipping due to lack of reliable new data) and a 2-color one (UG). I am going to list them in order of popularity since making a statement about which version is better is about as easy as explaining why Britney Spears thinks she is qualified to write this book on raising children she is apparently planning.
All Threshold decks have an extremely good gameplan against combo of any sort. They will thwart the first few maneuvers any opposing deck makes while simultaneously building a small army of undercosted, hard to deal with creatures. Since combo basically lives and dies on the first few turns, this typically results in the combo deck having to make an attempt to go off prematurely under the stress of further disruption and lethal damage on its way.
Amongst other decks, pure control decks in mono-blue are modestly effective against the white build, and BGW control decks can usually get the better of all of them. And frankly, midranged pure aggro decks like Survival-Advantage (usually just called Survival lately) can match up decently against Threshold. But these are mostly fringe decks which make up a tiny percentage of the field. In fact, the most compelling reason to play these decks is their positive Threshold matchup. Where Threshold reigns supreme is in the aggro-control arena. It's variety of search spells (which keep getting better), counters, removal, and creatures (which keep getting better) are the best in every category. And they all work together with no major glitches, assisting each other by way of side effect. Other aggro-control decks incorporate some of these attributes to various degrees of success. But when facing Threshold, they will all be tasked with an uphill battle since it has all of them. Aggro-control is the dominant archetype in Legacy, and will be for as far as the horizon. So Threshold isn't going anywhere.
To Counterbalance or not? It's hard to say. The advantages are excellent, especially against opposing aggro control and combo since the cards are similar in cost, and occasionally name. But these are already good matchups, and between three of these and the required not-quite-as fast-as-blue Sensei's Divining Top, it can weaken the tighter matchups. In general, I have found that the longer your matches, the better Counterbalance becomes. I would love to see well-thought arguments in favor or against.
White Threshold
This is a very control-oriented version. You can add the older tech of Meddling Mage if you are in a meta you know well. Notice the highly varied counter suite. Daze and Spell Snare in the same deck can be very frustrating for opponents.
1 Island
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer
3 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Counterbalance
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
Red Threshold
Below is an example of a much more aggressive version. Red is splendid in this role, as the assortment of direct damage gives it remarkable reach for a deck that still has plenty of search and control. Winter Orb from the board helps out a lot against those nasty board control decks.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgeling Dragon
4 Fire/Ice
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Winter Orb
3 Blue Elemental Blast
UG Threshold
The Blue-Green version lacks creature control to a significant degree. However, it makes up for that with the added Werebears, and extra early disruption in the form of Stifle and 4 Spell Snares. Plus, with only two colors, Wasteland is a smart inclusion for even more delaying tactics. It's perfect against combo. Bring in the Counterbalances against control.
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Predict
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River
1 Snapback
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hail Storm
Black Threshold
This version has a lot of card advantage. Dark Confidant is a game winner quite often. But take extra care not to reveal Force of Will or *gulp* Tombstalker. It should do especially well against control. The single Tombstalker may seem a bit random, but I have found that this is one of the best cards in here, and with all the search available, just right at one.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Repeal
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Stifle
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt
Some additional observations:
- I like Engineered Explosives a lot in my Threshold decks. Consider splashing just one ala Mr. Nightmare, or up to three if you can expect to see plenty of Empty the Warrens or aggro.
- If you like Control Magic over cards like Threads of Disloyalty and Vedalken Shackles, that's fine. Just find room for that eighteenth land to accomodate it.
- Goblins has fallen out of favor due to reality or perception. Whatever the reason, Predict is simply better than Mental Note these days. Look for chances to gain card advantage like this a little at a time in your build since the days of the Lackey are through. A strong end game via card advantage is a better focus than an instant answer for a 1/1.
- Don't Force of Will that turn one Tormod's Crypt without being certain that you can't otherwise handle it. It works best against you coming from highly aggressive decks, and when you are not holding a Tarmogoyf. It is bound to be overused for awhile. Just consider that.
- Stifle is one of the best anti-combo measures available at the moment. It is also a fetchland hoser and general nuissance. Give it due consideration for your sideboard.
1) 16 lands in the UGr build is too risky. I would add the additional fetch to go up to 17.
2) I notice the lack of Stifles in the UGr and UGw builds. Any particular reason besides lack of room?
On a off topic note: It's Lynn Spears, Britney's mom, who's writing the "parenting" book, but your reasoning still stands.
200: 07/17/06 @21:03 PST
500: 05/05/07 @11:48 PST
666: 08/27/07 @11:36 PST
777: 01/28/08 @20:22 PST
800: 04/07/08 @19:18 PST
888: 08/08/08 @16:12 PST
900: 08/12/08 @16:57 PST
1000:12/22/08 @ 18:01 PST
MTGS Legacy Tournament #5 Semi-finalist.
MTGS Legacy Tournament #6 Top 8.
Her mom is writing the book? That may even be worse.
Hence why your reasoning still stands
ROFLMAO :D.
On topic: I'm a big fan of Stifle as well. It's amazing how many applications it has (Fetches, Deeds, opposing Wastelands, just off the top of my head). As with the current UGr list, I would first take out 1x Predict for the 4th Strand.
I really like CounterTop combo, and I would personally take out the Jets and the Repeals for them. I'll try out the current list first; never really though about Repeal for this deck.
200: 07/17/06 @21:03 PST
500: 05/05/07 @11:48 PST
666: 08/27/07 @11:36 PST
777: 01/28/08 @20:22 PST
800: 04/07/08 @19:18 PST
888: 08/08/08 @16:12 PST
900: 08/12/08 @16:57 PST
1000:12/22/08 @ 18:01 PST
MTGS Legacy Tournament #5 Semi-finalist.
MTGS Legacy Tournament #6 Top 8.
I have come to much of the same conclusion as you on the UBG Threshold. I have found the following:
-The deck should lean more towards a Gro style than a Threshold style deck.
-Nimble Mongoose is probably the weakest creature, and I usually replace it with either Werebear or Quirion Dryad. Making Dark Confidant the weakest creature really says something for a deck.
-Tombstalker and Force of Will can be risky with Dark Confidant.
-Sensei's Divining Top is a great inclusion, as is a 7th fetchland.
-Counterbalance is a strong card, and while not usually main, I almost always have 3 in the sideboard, and it works well if you have SDT main.
-Gastly Demise is more situational than Smother, but it isn't stopped by Spell Snare. I also really like running 2 Darkblasts, specially with SDT.
-Deathmark has seen the main on nights when I've noticed too many Threshold or Gro decks.
-Duress in the main is really good against almost all decks, but if wasteland is found often in your meta, I would opt against it.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Opt
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty
This is the only deck I play anymore. I sold, or am in the process of selling, every Magic card I own except for these 75. I won a Meandeck Open with this list about two months ago (with Serum Visions instead of Ponder of course). And the Meandeck Open had 3 members of Meandeck playing in it, including Steve "Greatest Eternal Player Ever" Menendian. I believe my list is great against the format right now (and against other Threshold/Gro decks). I hope you guys will give Dryad a try! She's just the stone cold nuts with the new cantrips. With Ponder and Opt in my new list, it's not uncommon in the lategame to chain 4 or 5 cantrips together in one turn and swing with a huge Dryad.
Lots of love,
MD
Member of Team Lucksack
Voting for Ron Paul in 2008
Learn how to get better at Magic
-1 Predict
+1 Flooded Strand
I played UGr threshold, and while I was generally really happy with the maindeck (I just require more practice playing it, since goldfishing is next to useless), my side was a complete mess, rarely using any of it.
I came 5th from 12 - but didn't play against some of my easiest match-ups (notably 2 land belcher which won).
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
INSTANTS:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note
3 Fire // Ice
4 Lightning bolt
2 Serum Visions
2 Ponder
LANDS:
4 Flooded strand
4 Polluted delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Umezawa's jitte
I must admit, I am a bit of a loss with the cantrips - as you can see I ran a wide mix - in part so I could get a feel for each of them. Other than that I reckon the maindeck is reasonably standard.
Playing threshold I did feel that mental note helped, but then I wasn't running predict, which from the lists posted is clearly more efficient (especially if I run the top + counterbalance 'combo' from the side), but what of the rest? Serum visions I'll be happy to drop, didn't really achieve anything that the others wouldn't do.
As far as sideboard, I think I will probably change it to something like:
3 Tormod's crypt
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pyroclasm
Currently playing: Mono White Control.
I'm guessing it was a typo, but how did you fetch that singleton Forest?
On a side now, I'd change the following:
-1 Werebear
-2 Serum Visions
+1 Daze
+2 Ponder
After do a quick count, you seem to be one card short. Maybe you can get the extra Daze for free.
If you are going to run Opt, why not just run Sleight of Hand instead since it lets you look at 2 and some additional sorceries to pump up Goyf. Maybe split them 2/2
Also, how helpfull was the singeton Forest with only 1 Fetch land to obtain it? Seems like you should be running at least 3 Wooded Foothills. Is this because you only own 1?
Please use the edit button rather than Double Posting. - YuanTi
Scans of the pimpness? Just by looking at the list, it looks good. Might want to consider changing up the fetch package a bit: maybe 2 each of the blue ones and 3 foothills?
Glad it worked out for you. 17 lands seems to be the norm in most Thresh decks. Also, 4x Predict seems a little redundant sometimes (although with setup +2 good stuff is always nice).
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2 Sleight of Hand/2 Opt seems like a good idea. I like that Opt is a cheap and fast (instant speed) way to pump Dryad, but I'll give that suggestion a try.
I don't have a scanner, so it will be hard to post pics of the pimpage. Maybe I'll take some camera phone pics, but it won't do the deck justice. Do you just want to wait until I get beta duals to see the deck?
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Off the top of my head I think the missing card was another counterspell (worth swapping directly for the daze?).
Will change up the cantrips as suggested and give it a whirl.
BTW wanted to point out that I found the stifles to be underwhelming - was wondering if going down to 2 maindeck might not be a problem and if so, what to put in the slot?
@MD don't wait, stick up pics! Maybe you should go back to Rav duals just to add more foiliness - but that would be stupid
Spell snare VS daze - thoughts? I could go either way really, so interested to hear from people with actual experience of the two.
Currently playing: Mono White Control.
As for posting up pictures of the foil bad*** stuff you have, lets post it in a thread in this section:
Legacy (Type 1.5)
This thread is for deck discussion, not how cool some of our cards are, and I'll post pics of my foil miscut Tarmogoyfs.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
What I am wondering about is if I can do a discrete and direct change, something like:
-4 werebear
-3 mental note
+4 quirion dryad
+3 predict / opt
or vica versa, without affecting the deck much but making it more resilient to graveyard hate.
I actually like mental note, and not so much for it's graveyard filling ability (which never hurts), but more because it's an instant at U - it gives me something to do with my wasteland'ed / rishadan port'ed lands (which is why I list opt as a possibility - the cost of predict puts me off slightly - it looks like it works best when chained with another cantrip that stacks the top of the library).
Currently playing: Mono White Control.
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pithing Needle
That's what I'm currently packing.
You are the only one I have seen other than myself that runs wasteland in the UBG Threshold. I run a slight change to the spells I run in the main as well as a slight change in the mana base as well.
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
It is more designed for heavy wasteland and a land distruction meta, not to mention that Extirpate is played, and losing all Tropicals is the best way lose if you can't get another green source. You'll notice that I do not have a basic swamp. I splash black for Dark Confidant for the most part. I use other forms of removal than black, and in the versions that do run black removal, I run a basic swamp in place of an Underground Sea.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
I am curious: What do you board it in against if it is in your board? Very often it is dead ~ while other times it wins the game.
If you look at that lists from GenCon, almost all of the Thresh lists in the top 32 had it in their board...
It has always been far to unreliable for me...
Well, you said it yourself, it all depends on what the opponent is playing. Most storm combo runs a bunch of 1&2 mana rituals and tutors, not too mention 0-cost artifact mana so it is a definite bring in there, while against stax you will almost never hit anything, so it's dead. Basically, you figure out which decks play a lot of important spells that are in the 0-2 cost range, like the one you play.
Mostly, you should be able to figure out what the opponent is playing during game 1, and then decide from there once you have a partial decklist from what they played.
Neither of those are decent threats on their own; one of which also requires you to dip heavily into card disadvantage unless you specifically gear your deck towards that. Even before Goyf, Werebear was just better than both of those.
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In testing
I believe that running Sensei's Divining Top in the main as a 2 of is a good way to open the sideboard for more cards and that it is useful with Dark Confidant at any time, not just after sideboard.
Counterbalance is really good against other Threshold Decks, Combo Decks, and Burn Decks, other than that, you can usually win without it.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Skyshroud War Beast
4 Werebear
Cantrips (10)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Predict
Control (16)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterbalance
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Land (17)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
3 Engineered Explosives
So far i like the build, havent gotten to playtest it too much yet however.
Stifle+Needle wrecks havoc against mana bases when i decide to, thought about possibly putting 3 wasteland in the SB.
The single Counterbalance in the board is generally found by mid-game with the cantrip, shuffle, and top engine.
Still working on getting my 'goyf...
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