one my play testing journeys for tarmanoa aggro i ran into an interesting deck. the deck works by thinning out the deck to feed a tombstalker and uses tarmogoyfs as a backup win condition.
the ratios are hard to get down since you are dealing with a 48-49 card deck.
i write up more about my build later. the version i saw on the source that talked about the deck were sub optimal. they didnt have enough flexibility.
deed is mass removal. you can take out everything with this card aside from tombstalker. it is highly unlikely that he can deed for 8.
putrefy is spot removal. sometimes you have to take out that quick fattie like hunted horror or fast weapons.
extirpate + wasteland spells doom to a lot of decks like thres. extirpate is good in general since it can't be responded to. thoughtseize with duress is what gives the deck strength along with hymns as backups. you need enough disruption to offset them a bit.
What is the point of the deck? Is it not to drop a 1st turn Tombstalker?
Having 2 Land Grants in openning hand is fine, specially if you have no land. Play 1st Land Grant then play land. Play second Land Grant. 3 might be fine for the deck, but I thought the inclussion of Edge of Autumn and Darkblast would be good, while Lotus Petal is much like 2 mana when you look at Tombstalker casting.
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What is the point of the deck? Is it not to drop a 1st turn Tombstalker?
Having 2 Land Grants in openning hand is fine, specially if you have no land. Play 1st Land Grant then play land. Play second Land Grant. 3 might be fine for the deck, but I thought the inclussion of Edge of Autumn and Darkblast would be good, while Lotus Petal is much like 2 mana when you look at Tombstalker casting.
the point of the deck is to get a turn 2 or 3 tombstalker. i was aiming for consistency and not explosiveness. what i discovered was that i was mana flooded a lot and then i cut down to 18 lands. then i figured out that land grant was mostly a dead card in the deck. i just need better threats as well as fetchs.
so i decided to axe the grip for more putrefies and drop in 3 STE's, and i dropped in 2 jittes for the long haul. also you are correct agur of skulls is probably better than hymn.
I think Augur of Skulls would be good, but decided against it when thinking how easily it is stifled, and that is a pretty often played card, at least in my area.
Edge of Autumn however has a chance of being pretty useful, I have just been so busy with work that I haven't had any time to even play test in the evenings.
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I think Augur of Skulls would be good, but decided against it when thinking how easily it is stifled, and that is a pretty often played card, at least in my area.
Edge of Autumn however has a chance of being pretty useful, I have just been so busy with work that I haven't had any time to even play test in the evenings.
agur of skulls is good because it ramps up my threat density. something the deck lacked sorely. but i think i might can the agur and drop in braids instead and up the count of STE's.
I'm wondering if there is maybe an easier way to do this than by using the baubles.
Like, Turn 1 Careful study discarding Gravetroll and optimizing your hand. Play some draw spell (street wraith?) then either second turn TStalker unless you are playing some more mana accel... LED/Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal
I'm wondering if there is maybe an easier way to do this than by using the baubles.
Like, Turn 1 Careful study discarding Gravetroll and optimizing your hand. Play some draw spell (street wraith?) then either second turn TStalker unless you are playing some more mana accel... LED/Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal
i went ahead and moved the deck list to be more controllish and more rock like:
the things i noticed were i got mana flooded a lot and i had few threats. so i attempted to solve the problem with elders. that seemed to rectify the situation. i had to shift my mana base to be more green than black because green was most of my mana fixing.
braids was simply amazing in the middle/late game. i can establish the mid/late recursion game with braids, sword of light and shadow, eternal witness, etc.
i also have enough for the explosive early game with tarmos and stalkers. i think if i do drop in any dredge cards i would drop in darkblast as suggested by other builders. darkblast shores up the poor gobo matchup.
i also have enough for the explosive early game with tarmos and stalkers. i think if i do drop in any dredge cards i would drop in darkblast as suggested by other builders. darkblast shores up the poor gobo matchup.
Darkblast is amazing vs Goblins, Dark Confidant, and Tarmogoyf stand-offs. It also feeds the yard for the Tombstalker, but that really is a secondary plan.
OK, I tested this last night. It isn't that good, but it was interesting. I am thinking of a way to pitch cards from hand now. Maybe Oona's Prowler should be added, because I found myself stuck with Grim Tutors and unable to use them.
I really think that the best route to go is dredge.
Then we can still play 'goyf since we can refill the yard easily, and there really isnt a reason not to run the best creature in the format.
Cabal Therapy, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Sensei's Divining Top I think would work well here, as they are all still useful outside of trying to drop a quick tombstalker.
This may not be the thread to discuss this, though playing the baubles and wraiths seem really subpar. Baubles are incredibly horrible top decks, and since the deck doesnt really run anyway to protect your stalker, there really isnt a reason that makes this deck 'good'.
At this point, the first list seems the best, as its running the duress/thought$eize package. What makes the baubles//wraith better than something like Book Burning though?
I really think that the best route to go is dredge.
Then we can still play 'goyf since we can refill the yard easily, and there really isnt a reason not to run the best creature in the format.
Cabal Therapy, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Sensei's Divining Top I think would work well here, as they are all still useful outside of trying to drop a quick tombstalker.
This may not be the thread to discuss this, though playing the baubles and wraiths seem really subpar. Baubles are incredibly horrible top decks, and since the deck doesnt really run anyway to protect your stalker, there really isnt a reason that makes this deck 'good'.
At this point, the first list seems the best, as its running the duress/thought$eize package. What makes the baubles//wraith better than something like Book Burning though?
the idea is to power either or. baubles are good for powering out tarmos and provide card draw. book burning is okay; however, this isn't threshold the idea is to find a threat not dump it into the yard.
Crop Rotation could work really well in this deck, especially in multiples. Essentially, it pay for itself as well.
fetch>forest>crop rotation>fetch>land
Running Lotus Petals means that you can easily get out second and often times first turn stalkers.
Blue black and green would probably be the best bet for the deck. As green will give you additional beats, while black and blue should (hopefully) be able to protect your dropped beats from removal.
I like Land Grant over fetchlands because of the spell count it can sometimes add. I have found that Croprotation is much scarier as you are chancing not having some mana sometimes. I am not a fan of sac'ing the land as part of the cost.
I haven't had a whole lot of time to test this more, but it tends to either explode or fizzle.
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I understand why you would prefer an comboish approach to the deck but it might be more suitable as a aggro deck? I'm just saying we should concentrate on one decklist or on one strategy.
Every time I think aggro I think Dark Confidant and that just spells problems with Tombstalker. Maybe we'll get a better black draw creature in the next set.
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the ratios are hard to get down since you are dealing with a 48-49 card deck.
i write up more about my build later. the version i saw on the source that talked about the deck were sub optimal. they didnt have enough flexibility.
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Wasteland
3 Swamp
// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
3 Street Wraith
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Putrefy
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Umezawa's Jitte
explanation
=========
deed is mass removal. you can take out everything with this card aside from tombstalker. it is highly unlikely that he can deed for 8.
putrefy is spot removal. sometimes you have to take out that quick fattie like hunted horror or fast weapons.
extirpate + wasteland spells doom to a lot of decks like thres. extirpate is good in general since it can't be responded to. thoughtseize with duress is what gives the deck strength along with hymns as backups. you need enough disruption to offset them a bit.
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Augur of Skulls
Removal
4 Duress (Maybe Thoughtseize)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Street Wraith
3 Urza's Bauble
3 Mishra's Bauble
2 Edge of Autumn
It is an interesting idea.
EDIT: I thought it over again, and with all the stifles, the Augur wouldn't be that great. So...
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
Removal
4 Duress (Maybe Thoughtseize)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Darkblast
4 Street Wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Edge of Autumn
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
i dont like the idea of 4 land grants. 3 seems more than enough. also lotus petal i am not sure fits the bill either.
i am going to test out the deck a bit more these next few days to see where else weakness may lie.
Having 2 Land Grants in openning hand is fine, specially if you have no land. Play 1st Land Grant then play land. Play second Land Grant. 3 might be fine for the deck, but I thought the inclussion of Edge of Autumn and Darkblast would be good, while Lotus Petal is much like 2 mana when you look at Tombstalker casting.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
the point of the deck is to get a turn 2 or 3 tombstalker. i was aiming for consistency and not explosiveness. what i discovered was that i was mana flooded a lot and then i cut down to 18 lands. then i figured out that land grant was mostly a dead card in the deck. i just need better threats as well as fetchs.
so i decided to axe the grip for more putrefies and drop in 3 STE's, and i dropped in 2 jittes for the long haul. also you are correct agur of skulls is probably better than hymn.
here is the current deck list:
4 bloodstained mire
2 forest
3 wasteland
5 swamp
1 eternal witness
3 street wraith
3 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
3 sakura-tribe elder
4 duress
2 extirpate
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 putrefy
2 pernicious deed
4 urza's bauble
2 umezawa's jitte
Edge of Autumn however has a chance of being pretty useful, I have just been so busy with work that I haven't had any time to even play test in the evenings.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
agur of skulls is good because it ramps up my threat density. something the deck lacked sorely. but i think i might can the agur and drop in braids instead and up the count of STE's.
Like, Turn 1 Careful study discarding Gravetroll and optimizing your hand. Play some draw spell (street wraith?) then either second turn TStalker unless you are playing some more mana accel... LED/Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
i went ahead and moved the deck list to be more controllish and more rock like:
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
2 Wasteland
3 Swamp
// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
3 Street Wraith
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Duress
1 Extirpate
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Putrefy
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Umezawa's Jitte
the things i noticed were i got mana flooded a lot and i had few threats. so i attempted to solve the problem with elders. that seemed to rectify the situation. i had to shift my mana base to be more green than black because green was most of my mana fixing.
braids was simply amazing in the middle/late game. i can establish the mid/late recursion game with braids, sword of light and shadow, eternal witness, etc.
i also have enough for the explosive early game with tarmos and stalkers. i think if i do drop in any dredge cards i would drop in darkblast as suggested by other builders. darkblast shores up the poor gobo matchup.
Darkblast is amazing vs Goblins, Dark Confidant, and Tarmogoyf stand-offs. It also feeds the yard for the Tombstalker, but that really is a secondary plan.
OK, I tested this last night. It isn't that good, but it was interesting. I am thinking of a way to pitch cards from hand now. Maybe Oona's Prowler should be added, because I found myself stuck with Grim Tutors and unable to use them.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Bayou
3 Overgrown tomb
4 Street Wraith
4 Edge of Autumn
Creatures
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
Utility
4 Ill-gotten Gains
4 Grim Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Dark Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
It has the ability to Mindtwist, as well as provide Storm Combo for non attack kill.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Then we can still play 'goyf since we can refill the yard easily, and there really isnt a reason not to run the best creature in the format.
Cabal Therapy, Golgari-Grave Troll, and Sensei's Divining Top I think would work well here, as they are all still useful outside of trying to drop a quick tombstalker.
This may not be the thread to discuss this, though playing the baubles and wraiths seem really subpar. Baubles are incredibly horrible top decks, and since the deck doesnt really run anyway to protect your stalker, there really isnt a reason that makes this deck 'good'.
At this point, the first list seems the best, as its running the duress/thought$eize package. What makes the baubles//wraith better than something like Book Burning though?
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
the idea is to power either or. baubles are good for powering out tarmos and provide card draw. book burning is okay; however, this isn't threshold the idea is to find a threat not dump it into the yard.
Also, what do you think about Careful Study?
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
no i dont think oona's prowler would be that helpful in your build; however, careful study would make a lot more sense if you wanted to go black/blue.
edge of autumn needs to be looked at and considered if we stay with the green/black build.
I think The deck needs to keep Green and Black, but splashing Blue might be a good idea.
What blue cards could be utilized?
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
fetch>forest>crop rotation>fetch>land
Running Lotus Petals means that you can easily get out second and often times first turn stalkers.
Blue black and green would probably be the best bet for the deck. As green will give you additional beats, while black and blue should (hopefully) be able to protect your dropped beats from removal.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant (Or Polluted Delta)
4 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
Cyclers
4 Street Wraith
4 Edge of Autumn
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
Utility
4 Ill-gotten Gains
4 Grim Tutor
4 Careful Study
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Dark Blast
Free Drops
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Chain of Vapor
Other cards that could be added or possibly used.
Hapless researcher
Restless Dreams
I like Land Grant over fetchlands because of the spell count it can sometimes add. I have found that Croprotation is much scarier as you are chancing not having some mana sometimes. I am not a fan of sac'ing the land as part of the cost.
I haven't had a whole lot of time to test this more, but it tends to either explode or fizzle.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.