This deck is intended as a highly competitive list for tournament play with big prizes on the line.
French ban-list and rules
No Sideboards (but I would like to prepare one and appropriate mods for an event with them)
30 life
Best of 3
55 (?) minute rounds
To those of you who have already posted advice, arguments, suggestions, and such. I thank you. This list would not be what it is now were it not for your efforts.
Any and all advice is welcome, and will be seriously considered.
Psionic Blast - Should be able to kill many generals. Primarily for Animar, but easily co-opted for other uses.
Stifle, Trickbind - Some times you just need to counter an annoying ability. Or just a fetch, that's pretty funny too.
Stony Silence - Screws over equipment, and mana-rocks.
Suppression Field - Taxes the crap out of ability happy decks. That should slow them down.
Torpor Orb - Prevents Animar from building up any more steam. Also nerfs many of his creatures. Almost completely hoses the combo version, and slows the good-stuff version to a "normal" pace. Generally good vs anything that abuse creature CitP triggers. Unfortunately very narrow.
Winds of Rath - Reset button #5 which, probably, leaves Zur alone.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Nice to see more people one the heavy-control Zur train. I think this version of Zur is quite a bit stronger. Pretty solid but I think you are missing a few key cards and have a few too many duplicates.
Cut
Swiftfoot Boots: I know its like Lighntning Greaves but most of the time this feels dead because it can't protect Zur if you try play him early.
Infest: I think you play enough sweepers as it is and this one is a little lackluster.
Journey to Nowhere: You already have O-ring and D-sphere, I doubt you really need a 3rd tutorable exiler.
Energy Field / Propaganda: You don't need 3 aggro-hates, 2 will be enough in all but the most extreme cases.
Delay: This card is fine in Tempo, but as you are playing control this is basically useless. Replace with a better counterspell.
Dark Tutelage: It's either this or Sphinx's Revelation imo. Arena is generally all the card draw you need, but if you need a backup you really only want 1 (and this seems the weaker one).
Preordain: Not a bad card by any means, but probably one of your weaker spells if you need card slots.
Add
Weathered Wayfarer: This guy really smooths out draws and can fetch a land for any situation. Don't forget you can use him with fetches to activate his effect even on the play!
Mystical Teachings: Great tutor with a flashback, you can even use it to tutor chain into a Helm.
Flusterstorm: I've found this to be on par with negate. In a control heavy meta this is much better, but if your unsure what the meta is like Negate is usually safer.
Counterspell: Ya its UU, but its also just a big, fat NO. Not the best counterspell but you will probably need a few more all purpose counterspells in this deck.
Bitterblossom: Amazing as an alternative win-con and very aggravating for many aggro decks. Decks like Thrun and Sigarda usually have to remove it to win and it often blocks a large amount of damage from aggro decks like Radha and Exava.
Miscalculation: I think you need more counterspells and this fits the bill perfectly. It has a use at every point in the game.
Umezawa's Jitte: If your playing Stoneforge Mystic you should probably play the best Equipment in the game. Pretty much does everything.
Nice to see more people one the heavy-control Zur train. I think this version of Zur is quite a bit stronger. Pretty solid but I think you are missing a few key cards and have a few too many duplicates.
It's a composite of 3 lists and a primer I read. This is actually a revisit to Zur for me. I used to have a list at some point years ago, but it was too derpy. For this weekend I had originally settled on Rafiq, but I found some Zur lists in top 8s.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Prob want to fix your mana base and take out the below as your a 3 color contorl deck which uses powerful spells at the cost of being color dependent.
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Homeward Path
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Maze of Ith
Good adds would be, pain lands, glacial fortress lands, river of tears, rishadan port. Id also increase the number of basics to 2 of swamp/plain and rest island. You could drop the mana stones for more lands as well. Some good counters not on your list spell pierece, mental mistep, disenchant, logic knot, forbid, cryptic command, pact of negation (great tolaria late game target) shadow of doubt (Hai Eg), and stifle
Some bigger changes, Id take out non-sfm, confidant, clique, snapcaster creatures. You have zur for alot of the utitliy and u can put other strong spells in their place.
tithe, merchant scroll (2nd force), ponder, preordain are all musts as they will smooth out your deck.
fact or fiction and thirst for knowledge are great draw spells
dismember and go for the throat are >>>>>>>>> path to exile
@ 30 life tutelage is just as much of a win as arena so play both
Jace beleren is playable if you plan of facing alot of creatures.
If there are a couple known tirbal players (even vs iname its ok, and you can kill losts of things with it) engineer plague will be an absolute blowout.
bitterblossom is overated.
Seal of cleansing is a must.
Including bounce spells liek repeal and into the roil are great tempo cards when needed, mix your anwers well, and combo nicely if u tutor an oring and bounce while ability on stack or just pick one up that took a comannder out.
If you are not familiar with the format, i strongly advise you to just copy a good list, play with it and go on from there. There are many mistakes in your list and cards.
Those 2 lists are very good. Zur controle is probably much better than Zur Voltron at the moment. Zur is used as a very powerful card advantage tool but it is not dependent of it. It allows you to not play a lot of cards that are just terrible if you cannot play Zur or get it active for some reason. Overall it makes the deck way more consistent and powerful.
Building from scratch when you're new to a format is rarely a good idea.
Good Luck
I would say in developed metas, Zur control is better but in fairly newer metas, Zur Voltron should be easier to pilot and win with.
If you are not familiar with the format, i strongly advise you to just copy a good list, play with it and go on from there. There are many mistakes in your list and cards.
Those 2 lists are very good. Zur controle is probably much better than Zur Voltron at the moment. Zur is used as a very powerful card advantage tool but it is not dependent of it. It allows you to not play a lot of cards that are just terrible if you cannot play Zur or get it active for some reason. Overall it makes the deck way more consistent and powerful.
Building from scratch when you're new to a format is rarely a good idea.
Good Luck
Like I said above, my current list started out as a composite of several lists. Your two were among them. Plus I believe I also stated that this is a revisit for me, having played Zur in a 1v1 American EDH list. I realize that the two formats are vastly different, but my experience is not entirely invalid.
Would you care to list my mistakes so that I may correct or at least consider them?
Prob want to fix your mana base and take out the below as your a 3 color contorl deck which uses powerful spells at the cost of being color dependent.
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Homeward Path
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Maze of Ith
I offer the following rebuttal:
I tend to mostly agree with the Zur Primer I read. Once I land Zur, I'm done with playing anything but Countermagic. Reliquary Tower is amazing when drawing large volumes of cards, which I plan to do frequently (recurring Standstill). Hall of the Bandit Lord gives Zur haste, which is very handy since he's 4 mana. Riptide Laboratory protects Zur and his Wizard friends. Homeward Path protects against stealy effects. Nothing would suck more than losing to my own general. Of course I shouldn't need to worry about this if everything goes to plan (but since when does that ever happen?). Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth fixes my black mana, which can be useful. Unless I run into Karma or other swamp hate, I'll be fine. Creeping Tar Pit is bad? Is that because it does 2 of my colors and turns into an unblockable beat stick? I don't understand your logic. Having a few lands that CipT is not gonna kill me. I specifically tried to avoid them where possible, but this thing is too good to pass up. Maze of Ith says "screw you" to Voltron and Shotgun generals. At least until they can give them protection or destroy this.
Good adds would be, pain lands, glacial fortress lands, river of tears, rishadan port. Id also increase the number of basics to 2 of swamp/plain and rest island. You could drop the mana stones for more lands as well. Some good counters not on your list spell pierece, mental mistep, disenchant, logic knot, forbid, cryptic command, pact of negation (great tolaria late game target) shadow of doubt (Hai Eg), and stifle
Some bigger changes, Id take out non-sfm, confidant, clique, snapcaster creatures. You have zur for alot of the utitliy and u can put other strong spells in their place.
What does "non-sfm" mean?
I find it amusing that you would cut the wizard tribe. I suppose these cuts go hand-in-hand with cutting Riptide Laboratory Bob is better than Dark Tutelage IMO. Vendilion Clique is another control element. Hand disruption is good, and the Peek effect is always nice. Tigo Chan is amazing here. What's a control list without him? Reusing target instant/sorcery seems very strong to me, especially late game. And with Riptide Laboratory, it's repeatable. Spell Pierce is already on the list. Cryptic Command did not make the cut due to mana requirements. Mental Mistep is solid, but I need room for it. Disenchant seems redundant at this point. I have O-Ring, D-Sphere, and Aura of Silence to serve that role. Logic Knot seems nice, what do you suggest I cut? Forbid is classic, what can I cut for this?
I'm quite happy with the mana-facts. they are doing their job when I draw them, and not clogging my hand very frequently.
I like
tithe, merchant scroll (2nd force), ponder, preordain are all musts as they will smooth out your deck.
fact or fiction and thirst for knowledge are great draw spells
dismember and go for the throat are >>>>>>>>> path to exile
@ 30 life tutelage is just as much of a win as arena so play both
Jace beleren is playable if you plan of facing alot of creatures.
I have been considering adding Pact of Negation, and also Slaughter Pact. I hear Magus of the Moon is a colossal pain (I'm surprised it hasn't been banned yet). Dark Tutelage was cut for Standstill. It's arguably more broken, especially when recurred. Fact or Fiction and Thirst for Knowledge are indeed strong, but my current draw package seems to be in order. Ponder and Preordain were in the original draft list, but were cut due to slot availability. Dismember and Go for the Throat are currently under consideration, but I'm unsure what to cut for them since I happen to like PtE. currently testing GftT Jace Beleren was not considered. He's pretty good, but room is tight and sacrifices must be made.
If there are a couple known tirbal players (even vs iname its ok, and you can kill losts of things with it) engineer plague will be an absolute blowout.
bitterblossom is overated.
Engineered Plague will be considered but is unlikely to make the list with no evidence of a mid-to-strong tribal presence. It's a meta call. I plan to attempt to scout the meta on Saturday. I doubt I will have much success. I think Rest in Peace is a stronger weapon against Iname lists.
Alright, you've got my attention on Bitterblossom. Why is it overrated? I need room, so make your case.
Including bounce spells liek repeal and into the roil are great tempo cards when needed, mix your anwers well, and combo nicely if u tutor an oring and bounce while ability on stack or just pick one up that took a comannder out.
peace and gl
omgmakeme
I like those tricks, but I don't think shinnanigans have any place is a competitive list. If I were to include those, I would be very tempted to include Isochron Scepter and Parallax Wave and Tide. The inclusion of Stick would also prompt the inclusion of Orim's Chant for Chant-Lock.
I also would like some comments on Zur's Weirding. I figure it can ensure my victory with Zur if I slam it at the right time. Simply deny them anything they need to make progress while gaining life with Zur + Steel. Thoughts, opinions, wild speculations, rants? Anyone?
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I offer the following rebuttal:
I tend to mostly agree with the Zur Primer I read. Once I land Zur, I'm done with playing anything but Countermagic. Reliquary Tower is amazing when drawing large volumes of cards, which I plan to do frequently (recurring Standstill). Hall of the Bandit Lord gives Zur haste, which is very handy since he's 4 mana. Riptide Laboratory protects Zur and his Wizard friends. Homeward Path protects against stealy effects. Nothing would suck more than losing to my own general. Of course I shouldn't need to worry about this if everything goes to plan (but since when does that ever happen?). Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth fixes my black mana, which can be useful. Unless I run into Karma or other swamp hate, I'll be fine. Creeping Tar Pit is bad? Is that because it does 2 of my colors and turns into an unblockable beat stick? I don't understand your logic. Having a few lands that CipT is not gonna kill me. I specifically tried to avoid them where possible, but this thing is too good to pass up. Maze of Ith says "screw you" to Voltron and Shotgun generals. At least until they can give them protection or destroy this.
Reliquary Tower is a bad card, don't run it. If you're recurring standstill - then you're winning. No reason to dilute the list with cards that you don't ever want to see until you've already won.
1). You can use it in resp. the same turn you play zur. This means you have the mana to just cast him from the command zone next turn.
2). Why do you need to run other wizards? None of them are game-breaking to the point where you should be worried about losing them to a removal spell because you shouldn't really be running many [if any] wizards.
3). Another colorless land.
Similar @ homeward path, but it's much more viable as the effect doesn't remove zur from play; only run if you see/expect control magic effects.
Creeping tar pit and Maze of ith I feel are personal calls, deck can work with either and neither is terrible per-se.
What does "non-sfm" mean?
I find it amusing that you would cut the wizard tribe. I suppose these cuts go hand-in-hand with cutting Riptide Laboratory Bob is better than Dark Tutelage IMO. Vendillion Clique is another control element. Hand disruption is good, and the Peek effect is always nice. Tigo Chan is amazing here. What's a control list without him? Reusing target instant/sorcery seems very strong to me, especially late game. And with Riptide Laboratory, it's repeatable. Spell Pierce is already on the list. Cryptic Command did not make the cut due to mana requirements. Mental Mistep is solid, but I need room for it. Disenchant seems redundant at this point. I have O-Ring, D-Sphere, and Aura of Silence to serve that role. Logic Knot seems nice, what do you suggest I cut? Forbid is classic, what can I cut for this?
Forbid is not necessary. Your list should be flooded enough with removal/permission that you don't need 2-1/2 cards per threat to keep going. Remember, you're winning once you're drawing cards regardless.
I'm quite happy with the mana-facts. they are doing their job when I draw them, and not clogging my hand very frequently.
I like
I have been considering adding Pact of Negation, and also Slaughter Pact. I hear Magus of the Moon is a colossal pain (I'm surprised it hasn't been banned yet). Dark Tutelage was cut for Standstill. It's arguably more broken, especially when recurred. Fact or Fiction and Thirst for Knowledge are indeed strong, but my current draw package seems to be in order. Ponder and Preordain were in the original draft list, but were cut due to slot availability. Dismember and Go for the Throat are currently under consideration, but I'm unsure what to cut for them since I happen to like PtE. currently testing GftT Jace Beleren was not considered. He's pretty good, but room is tight and sacrifices must be made.
Engineered Plague will be considered but is unlikely to make the list with no evidence of a mid-to-strong tribal presence. It's a meta call. I plan to attempt to scout the meta on Saturday. I doubt I will have much success. I think Rest in Peace is a stronger weapon against Iname lists.
Alright, you've got my attention on Bitterblossom. Why is it overrated? I need room, so make your case.
I like those tricks, but I don't think shinnanigans have any place is a competitive list. If I were to include those, I would be very tempted to include Isochron Scepter and Parallax Wave and Tide. The inclusion of Stick would also prompt the inclusion of Orim's Chant for Chant-Lock.
I also would like some comments on Zur's Weirding. I figure it can ensure my victory with Zur if I slam it at the right time. Simply deny them anything they need to make progress while gaining life with Zur + Steel. Thoughts, opinions, wild speculations, rants? Anyone?
Zur's Weirding could be fun; I don't think it's the most competitive strategy though. Strionic Reasanator is a "win-more" card. Elite Arcanist is just a bad card, unfortunately he's a lot better on paper than in game.
Reliquary Tower is a bad card, don't run it. If you're recurring standstill - then you're winning. No reason to dilute the list with cards that you don't ever want to see until you've already won.
Good point, I'll consider cutting for a more colorful land.
1). You can use it in resp. the same turn you play zur. This means you have the mana to just cast him from the command zone next turn.
2). Why do you need to run other wizards? None of them are game-breaking to the point where you should be worried about losing them to a removal spell because you shouldn't really be running many [if any] wizards.
3). Another colorless land.
I was thinking more like recurring Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage. I had never planned to use it the same turn as casting Zur.
Forbid is not necessary. Your list should be flooded enough with removal/permission that you don't need 2-1/2 cards per threat to keep going. Remember, you're winning once you're drawing cards regardless.
Ok, Forbid is not necessary, but it could be good. I'm gonna test it in some goldfishing.
I like Teachings, it can find Clique, Tigo, and Mindcensor as well as any instant.
The bird wizard hoses tutor-happy decks and neuters fetch-lands pretty hard too. Best of all, it's one-sided.
Zur's Weirding could be fun; I don't think it's the most competitive strategy though. Strionic Reasanator is a "win-more" card. Elite Arcanist is just a bad card, unfortunately he's a lot better on paper than in game.
My theory on Zur's Weirding is this:
If I stick it with an active Zur, it's a prison-style lock short of an in-hand answer since I can deny them any draw which would threaten it. If I happen to have a counter in hand, it's nearly a hard-lock. I can gain the life back via Steel of the Godhead on Zur and I don't care if I'm denied EVERY draw since I don't need to draw additional cards at that point. I can just tutor everything I need.
I was pretty sure Elite Arcanist is terrible. More of a derpy combo piece to a kitchen table deck.
Your reasoning on Resonator sounds plausible. There might be a corner case where it would swing the game in my favor, but not worth it.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I like Teachings, it can find Clique, Tigo, and Mindcensor as well as any instant.
The bird wizard hoses tutor-happy decks and neuters fetch-lands pretty hard too. Best of all, it's one-sided.
Nothing is definite yet, but this seems strong.
I'd honestly run diabolic tutor over mystical teachings. Going from instant >> sorcery speed is kinda meh, but you can fetch any card, and you don't have to reveal it. And I wouldn't run diabolic tutor either, 4 mana is a lot for a tutor.
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I'd honestly run diabolic tutor over mystical teachings. Going from instant >> sorcery speed is kinda meh, but you can fetch any card, and you don't have to reveal it. And I wouldn't run diabolic tutor either, 4 mana is a lot for a tutor.
I'll take it under advisement. I suppose that getting Mindcensor late isn't as backbreaking as I'd like. Turn 4 is pretty late and I'd rather be dropping Zur that turn.
I think it's good for the same reason as Cunning Wish.
I suppose I should start considering alternatives.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I'd honestly run diabolic tutor over mystical teachings. Going from instant >> sorcery speed is kinda meh, but you can fetch any card, and you don't have to reveal it. And I wouldn't run diabolic tutor either, 4 mana is a lot for a tutor.
I will totally concede that Fact or Fiction is much better than Mystical Teachings. I didn't realize he was missing FoF and I would suggest playing it. However I'm still gonna argue that Mystical Teachings is good. First off, instant speed in a control deck is HUGE; it lets you have so many options that Diabolic Tuor and Merchant Scroll do not such as tutoring up a counterspell or removal at instant speed or Tutoring EoT. Secondly, it has Flashback, which means you can use it early to tutor an answer and keep it active to use later in the game. 6 mana is a high price but completely playable in almost every matchup.
Also thank you Omega Furnace for thinking through Beefarow's suggestions. Dont take anyones word for granted in these forums (not even mine). I came to almost all the same conclusions you did. I do think that Reliquary Tower and Homeward Path could be cut. Tower is just unnecessary; like luklinda said, if you're discarding down to seven chances are you have won already. Homeward Path is largely a meta call, as I've found that steal effects are generally much rarer in 1v1 edh than multiplayer. Your creature list is fine (the only borderline guys are Sun Titan and Aven Mindcensor). All of the creatures you're playing have extremely strong effects you just can''t find on spells and are therefore justifiable in a control deck imo.
I also think Zur's Weirding isn't going to do much. It's a win-more card and I'll explain why:
1) Not tutorable by Zur (odd, right?), so dont expect to see it every game'.
2) It goes both ways. This Zur deck isn't a fast killer and I doubt any of your opponents are going to mind cutting off your draws. So you are going to need a STRONG board state to justify playing this. Because if there are any hiccups, this could as easily lose you the game as win it. So basically you need to be winning to play this, and if your winning why do you need it?
I will totally concede that Fact or Fiction is much better than Mystical Teachings. I didn't realize he was missing FoF and I would suggest playing it. However I'm still gonna argue that Mystical Teachings is good. First off, instant speed in a control deck is HUGE; it lets you have so many options that Diabolic Tuor and Merchant Scroll do not such as tutoring up a counterspell or removal at instant speed or Tutoring EoT. Secondly, it has Flashback, which means you can use it early to tutor an answer and keep it active to use later in the game. 6 mana is a high price but completely playable in almost every matchup.
My goldfishing with the deck has suggested that it'll be quite useful.
Also thank you Omega Furnace for thinking through Beefarow's suggestions. Dont take anyones word for granted in these forums (not even mine). I came to almost all the same conclusions you did. I do think that Reliquary Tower and Homeward Path could be cut. Tower is just unnecessary; like luklinda said, if you're discarding down to seven chances are you have won already. Homeward Path is largely a meta call, as I've found that steal effects are generally much rarer in 1v1 edh than multiplayer. Your creature list is fine (the only borderline guys are Sun Titan and Aven Mindcensor). All of the creatures you're playing have extremely strong effects you just can''t find on spells and are therefore justifiable in a control deck imo.
I tend to take all advice (and especially here) with a grain of salt. I know one of the mods IRL (not sure which one she is) and let's just say that she says there's a good deal of bad advice floating around here. I've seen enough bad advice on other threads to convince me that it's not all gold.
I'll consider replacing Homeward Path with Celestial Colonnade once I get a sense of the meta. I was predicting a low occurance of long-term steal effects in the format. They might come up in red, but I doubt those will be enough to kill me. I doubt I'll be able to scout effectively enough and I doubt people will be shy about playing blue.
I think Mindcensor is strong enough. It's evasive, and has flash (counter-bait?). It's effect on the game state is quite strong and one-sided. It will single-handedly shut down opposing Zur lists and anything else with a strong tutor package (including fetch lands and land ramp), which seems solid enough for my liking.
Sun Titan is a bit like a fatter version of Zur in the late game. Getting all my goodies back from the bin. Alternate finisher. It would go so well with Gift of Immortality, but that card isn't worth the slot. Hell, it's barely worth the paper it's printed on.
I figured Sorin Markov was too clunky for the format.
I also think Zur's Weirding isn't going to do much. It's a win-more card and I'll explain why:
1) Not tutorable by Zur (odd, right?), so dont expect to see it every game'.
2) It goes both ways. This Zur deck isn't a fast killer and I doubt any of your opponents are going to mind cutting off your draws. So you are going to need a STRONG board state to justify playing this. Because if there are any hiccups, this could as easily lose you the game as win it. So basically you need to be winning to play this, and if your winning why do you need it?
Yes :nod:, it's ironic that Zur can't tutor his own namesake enchantment.
I feel that my Zur toolbox is good enough that I can handle most threats after Weirding comes down with the toolbox alone. Failing that, I can tutor for Aura of Silence and blow it up myself. Yes, I can be denied every draw from then till the end of the game, but I don't need another draw at all. I tend to think of it as reading:
"Players can't draw cards.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, one of that player's opponents loses 2 life."
Zur may not be invincible on his own, but I'm comparing this one to an Armageddon. Late game, it will probably be a wins-more card, but early it'll be a pretty cheeky and devastating. Taking away their ability to even topdeck answers is very powerful. I'm liable to deny them all draws since I can maintain it longer. I expect Aggro decks to have minimal gas at this point.
I would argue that a turn 4 Zur, followed by turn 5 Weirding with a counter in hand is strong enough baring an overwhelming opposition.
In that kind of scenario my first fetch with Zur would be Pemmin's Aura to untap and block, followed by Steel of the Godhead for lifelink. I doubt much will stand up to that kind of lifegain while I wreck the board advantage with O-Ring and D-Sphere. I can also hobble the ability to attack between Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. I expect Energy Field might be missed here though. Damn do I wish we were playing with sideboards.
However, I also have to concede that I have a strong bias towards combos. So my intuition may be off here.
I was also thinking about Torpor Orb, since I hear that most players forgo instant/sorcery answers to artifacts/enchantments in favor of creatures that kill them on entry or as an ability (this comes from the rules council's reasoning behind the Humility banning, pathetic). It only hoses 1 of my guys where it would pretty much have it's way with most Animar lists.
What do you guys think about Crackdown? I don't think it's viable for mainboard, but in a sideboarded event, this could be a house.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Cut Armageddon. This is nowhere near as good as Cataclysm, and will not actually let you stabilize with Zur in play against far too many board positions. I know why it's in - it'll be a dead card way too often.
Cut Legacy's Allure. This is never your prime Zur tutor target for removal, and is just way too slow. You're not mono blue, you have no need for such unreliable ways to deal with creatures.
Cut Aura of Silence. The extra mana makes this much worse than Seal of Cleansing. Unless you plan on seeing Arcum Dagson artifact.deck, the tax effect is irrelevant (since you'll be tutoring for it to kill an artifact right away almost 99% of the time).
Cut Aven Mindcensor: Part of the reason creatures like this are good is because they disrupt while simultaneously advancing your game plan. Zur's gameplan is not advanced by a 2/1 beater - this isn't a maverick style deck. You also play only one equipment, which is the prime way utility creatures actually put pressure. Much better to just have a counter in this slot.
Cut Sun Titan. Your best 6 drop is replaying Zur; simple as that. You also lack sufficient targets actually worth bringing back (there's no recurring nightmare here).
Cut Zur's Weirding. You'll win 80% of more of the games Zur is around and swinging - you want to get to that board state, not help stabilize it with more cards.
Cut Propaganda / Ghostly Prison. This is better served as Solitary Confinement and a free slot. There's no way you need this much anti aggro tech when you're playing 3 wrath effects.
Cut Damnation or Wrath of God. Speaking of which - 3 wrath effects is way too many in a deck that also plays Mystical Tutor + Demonic Tutor. Unless you plan on seeing tokens galore, holding wraths in hand is counter to playing Zur. One or two is fine; not three. I would put another spot removal in this spot - I like hero's downfall here.
Cut Mystical Teachings. I agree with what others have said. This card is way too slow for a deck like Zur. Teachings is far better suited for the most hard control decks like Thraximundar, whereas Zur is just too good at shifting into a more aggressive playstyle if the matchup suits it. I wouldn't sacrifice that versatility by overloading the deck with clunky finishers (when Zur is the best finisher anyway). You want good counter magic to play the control game, but also want flexibility.
Other notes:
36 mana producing lands is way too little. I would play 39 or 40 + maze. You want to hit a land drop ever turn until minimum turn 6, and you simply can't do that consistently with 36 lands + maze.
You need a more consistent early game. I would play Thirst for Knowledge / Sign in Blood / Night's Whisper. They go a long way towards smoothing out early hands, and are extremely cost effective for what they do.
You also want more hard counters. Counterspell is basically your only one at the moment. I would look at Swan Song, or a simple Negate.
DERP!:
So dopey me, I used my sleeves to count out the deck. After adding it up, I'm at 103 :o, including general. I need 3 cuts people. Awkward.
On the other hand, at least I caught it in time and 3 extra sleeves!
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Cut Armageddon. This is nowhere near as good as Cataclysm, and will not actually let you stabilize with Zur in play against far too many board positions. I know why it's in - it'll be a dead card way too often.
Hmm, I'm skeptical of this one, I'll keep it for now. But I'll think about this one.
Cut Legacy's Allure. This is never your prime Zur tutor target for removal, and is just way too slow. You're not mono blue, you have no need for such unreliable ways to deal with creatures.
Cut Aura of Silence. The extra mana makes this much worse than Seal of Cleansing. Unless you plan on seeing Arcum Dagson artifact.deck, the tax effect is irrelevant (since you'll be tutoring for it to kill an artifact right away almost 99% of the time).
Cut Aven Mindcensor: Part of the reason creatures like this are good is because they disrupt while simultaneously advancing your game plan. Zur's gameplan is not advanced by a 2/1 beater - this isn't a maverick style deck. You also play only one equipment, which is the prime way utility creatures actually put pressure. Much better to just have a counter in this slot.
Cut Sun Titan. Your best 6 drop is replaying Zur; simple as that. You also lack sufficient targets actually worth bringing back (there's no recurring nightmare here).
Cut Propaganda / Ghostly Prison. This is better served as Solitary Confinement and a free slot. There's no way you need this much anti aggro tech when you're playing 3 wrath effects.
Cut Damnation or Wrath of God. Speaking of which - 3 wrath effects is way too many in a deck that also plays Mystical Tutor + Demonic Tutor. Unless you plan on seeing tokens galore, holding wraths in hand is counter to playing Zur. One or two is fine; not three. I would put another spot removal in this spot - I like hero's downfall here.
Cut Mystical Teachings. I agree with what others have said. This card is way too slow for a deck like Zur. Teachings is far better suited for the most hard control decks like Thraximundar, whereas Zur is just too good at shifting into a more aggressive playstyle if the matchup suits it. I wouldn't sacrifice that versatility by overloading the deck with clunky finishers (when Zur is the best finisher anyway). You want good counter magic to play the control game, but also want flexibility.
Zur should be a 6+ turn clock. Particularly if I have to keep counter-mana up. I think I'd rather have it for those long games.
You need a more consistent early game. I would play Thirst for Knowledge / Sign in Blood / Night's Whisper. They go a long way towards smoothing out early hands, and are extremely cost effective for what they do.
Looking for the room, it's hard to fit everything in all at once.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
1) You have no way to take advantage of it in a vacuum - you play only 2 mana rocks. So if you're resolving Armageddon, you'll have no means of generating mana either.
2) Cataclysm is 95% of the time a better tutor target. If it isn't, it means you have so many enchantments in play, it's difficult to see how you're losing.
3) Most importantly, Armageddon simply doesn't seal the game like you think it does. Some decks can win against an active Zur - it's definitely extremely difficult, but still doable. Against these decks, if you've managed to gain board control, there's basically no way for them to take it back, given we're talking about midrange or tempo decks here. Consequently, destroying all lands is just the definition of "winmore".
Alternatively, hard control decks, which can take back board position from an active Zur (either through a board sweeper or a flurry of removal spells) will never let you resolve Armageddon. In that sense, it's basically just a 4 mana sorcery spell that reads "Target opponent discards one counter". Obviously that's horribly unoptimal, and most hard control decks will punish you for tapping out.
Mentioning Recurring Nightmare was an analogy - the point is that most of the time you'll bring a fetchland back into play, and that's just not good enough. If you really want another creature, play Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. It's tutorable with Mystical Teachings (then letting you using teachings to tutor for any other creature in your deck), and also lets you resolve Zur at their end of turn, basically sealing the game in your favor.
1) You have no way to take advantage of it in a vacuum - you play only 2 mana rocks. So if you're resolving Armageddon, you'll have no means of generating mana either.
2) Cataclysm is 95% of the time a better tutor target. If it isn't, it means you have so many enchantments in play, it's difficult to see how you're losing.
3) Most importantly, Armageddon simply doesn't seal the game like you think it does. Some decks can win against an active Zur - it's definitely extremely difficult, but still doable. Against these decks, if you've managed to gain board control, there's basically no way for them to take it back, given we're talking about midrange or tempo decks here. Consequently, destroying all lands is just the definition of "winmore".
Alternatively, hard control decks, which can take back board position from an active Zur (either through a board sweeper or a flurry of removal spells) will never let you resolve Armageddon. In that sense, it's basically just a 4 mana sorcery spell that reads "Target opponent discards one counter". Obviously that's horribly unoptimal, and most hard control decks will punish you for tapping out.
I'm skeptical of your assessment of Armageddon. I realize that it doesn't win the game on it's own, or even when backing up Zur. But in a vacuum under reasonable circumstances in constructed, no card really can. There's almost always an answer, my experience with my Karona Prison list has taught me to consider that.
And wouldn't those same decks do the same thing to a Cataclysm? My typical answer to a counter-heavy meta is to start with running Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Probably a bad idea. By my count, it only helps 14 of my cards (counterable instant/sorcery with at least 1 colorless mana in the cost and no APC).
Mentioning Recurring Nightmare was an analogy - the point is that most of the time you'll bring a fetchland back into play, and that's just not good enough. If you really want another creature, play Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. It's tutorable with Mystical Teachings (then letting you using teachings to tutor for any other creature in your deck), and also lets you resolve Zur at their end of turn, basically sealing the game in your favor.
I was aiming for a generalized hard counter. Swan Song is nice, but it's essentially a harder version of Flusterstorm. My understanding of EDH is that enchantments are typically very rare in most metas. I think the next counter I would add is Negate or Mental Misstep.
I also don't know if you've cut Zur's Weirding already, but if not, I would.
It's still in. I know it's slow and cuts both ways. I don't care that it does. If I can land it with an active Zur, protected Jace, or any superior board position, it will seal my victory. At the very least, it's FoW fodder
I find them to be useful. Sword lets me more freely abuse Pemmin's Aura, Mistveil Plains, and a few other goodies. Jitte is good for obvious reasons. Both speed up my clock, which I like, and have other effects. I doubt the dual protections from Sword with be overly relevant
Should I include Unquestioned Authority or Spirit Mantle? I'm more inclined to go with the latter for the mana cost and minor buff over the former's cantrip. Probably not since it's a purely defensive thing.
I also find myself dreaming of stupid tricks like Infernal Tribute to make D-Sphere and O-Ring permanent. Pity it's clunky, inefficient, and stupid.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Hesitation - This seemed like a slightly more aggressive, and cheeky, variation of Standstill.
Angelic Renewal - A tutorable insurance policy which requires no mana to use. It can be dropped prior to a T4 Zur and sticks until used or removed. How could I lose?
Castigate, Tidehollow Sculler - In my readings on the archtype, I noticed several lists maxing out their targeted discard. I view them as a compliment to my counter suite.
Seal of Cleansing - Fluxuate managed to convince me that this would serve me better in anything but the Arcum Dagson matchup.
Sun Titan - One primer I read made reference to this, not as a 6-drop but as a late game finisher for when Zur was too expensive to re-cast. I believe that Fluxuate makes a valid point about the best 6-drop being a recast Zur. But I also agree with the primer in question about Sun Titan being quite strong in the late game.
Coldsteel Heart - More accel is generally a good thing, so I made an effort to squeeze this in.
Other cards I'm mulling over: Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond - I'm leaning away from these because of their inherent card-disadvantage, but they still bear mention. While they might enable more explosive starts, those will probably be too rare to be worth it. Mesmiric Fiend - Yes another targeted discard. I take a piece of removal and force them to use another to get it back. Either way, it seems good.
Impressions:
Armageddon - Every time I drew this, it seemed to seal the game for me. It also provoked several groans, and a lot of fearful whispers. It passed the initial acid test, though this is by no means conclusive. Still on the watch list, but it has a few points in favor.
Sun Titan - I didn't get to play this one yet, so no data here
Hesitation, Standstill - Quite effective. I did not get to, or need to, recur them.
Angelic Renewal - A keeper! This thing negates a piece of removal and is well worth the slot. Only exile and tuck (obv not for generals) effects can duck it.
Evasive Action - Again, didn't draw this one. I'm vaguely concerned about this under-performing, but with 9 fetches, and 9 lands with basic types, I think it gets a shot. Watch listed, but optimistic.
Expedition Map - The one time I played this, it was promptly destroyed. That seems like a good sign.
Spellskite - I only got to play this once or twice. I didn't even need to use it. It was a good deterrent to an attacking Gravecrawler though.
Zur's Weirding - Sadly, this did not see play. The one time I drew it (R3G2 I believe), I was forced to discard it.
All in all, I'm happy with how the deck performed, but disappointed that I didn't get to put it through it's paces more thoroughly. I would have liked a sharper meta to get a proper idea of it's capabilities and limitations.
Thank you to everyone who posted advice, arguments, suggestions, and help. Without them, I doubt this deck would have become what it is now.
I will be checking back periodically in case anyone has any further insights.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Probably too busy doing the victory lap or is hung over from excessive celebration.
Unfortunately, my victory was darkened by the fact that we only got 8 players, which wasn't enough to meet the minimum turnout for the From the Vault: 20 to be offered up as the top prize. I still can't complain though, since I got a nice chunk of store credit.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
French ban-list and rules
No Sideboards (but I would like to prepare one and appropriate mods for an event with them)
30 life
Best of 3
55 (?) minute rounds
To those of you who have already posted advice, arguments, suggestions, and such. I thank you. This list would not be what it is now were it not for your efforts.
Any and all advice is welcome, and will be seriously considered.
So here's the current list:
1 Zur the Enchanter
Lands (38 w/ Maze)
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Fetid Heath
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Wasteland
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Homeward Path
Creatures (9):
One-Drops:
1 Weathered Wayfarer
Two-Drops:
1 Spellskite
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tidehollow Sculler
Three-Drops:
1 Vendilion Clique
Six-Drops:
1 Sun Titan
Planeswalkers (2):
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
Equipment (3):
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Non-Creature Artifacts (5):
1 Expedition Map
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Helm of Obedience
Instants (16):
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Tithe
1 Force Spike
1 Spell Snare
1 Daze
1 Counterspell
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Evasive Action
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
Sorceries (12):
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Castigate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon
Enchantments (11):
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Rest in Peace
1 Hesitation
1 Standstill
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Detention Sphere
1 Zur's Weirding
Auras (3):
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Pemmin's Aura
1 Prison Term
1 Zur the Enchanter
Just Mana (32):
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Fetid Heath
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Wasteland
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Castigate
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Zur's Weirding
Protection (5):
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Spellskite
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Pemmin's Aura
Buffs (3):
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Silver Bullets (7)
1 Grand Abolisher (Counters and EOT)
1 Rest in Peace (Graveyard, duh)
1 Nevermore (Generals)
1 Homeward Path (Steal)
1 Cavern of Souls (Counters)
1 Solitary Confinement (Aggro)
1 Maze of Ith (Voltron)
Tutors (7):
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tolaria West
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Expedition Map
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Merchant Scroll
Draw (5):
1 Dark Confidant
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Brainstorm
1 Standstill
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Snapcaster Mage
Accel (3):
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Coldsteel Heart
Alternate win (2):
1 Sun Titan
1 Helm of Obedience (+ Rest in Peace)
Countermagic (14):
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Tithe
1 Force Spike
1 Spell Snare
1 Daze
1 Counterspell
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Evasive Action
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Hesitation
Spot Removal (6):
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Prison Term
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Detention Sphere
1 Vindicate
Sweepers (4):
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon
So far the deck is 6-0. Further testing is required.
Sideboard/Flex slot Tech:
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Cut
Swiftfoot Boots: I know its like Lighntning Greaves but most of the time this feels dead because it can't protect Zur if you try play him early.
Infest: I think you play enough sweepers as it is and this one is a little lackluster.
Journey to Nowhere: You already have O-ring and D-sphere, I doubt you really need a 3rd tutorable exiler.
Energy Field / Propaganda: You don't need 3 aggro-hates, 2 will be enough in all but the most extreme cases.
Delay: This card is fine in Tempo, but as you are playing control this is basically useless. Replace with a better counterspell.
Dark Tutelage: It's either this or Sphinx's Revelation imo. Arena is generally all the card draw you need, but if you need a backup you really only want 1 (and this seems the weaker one).
Preordain: Not a bad card by any means, but probably one of your weaker spells if you need card slots.
Add
Weathered Wayfarer: This guy really smooths out draws and can fetch a land for any situation. Don't forget you can use him with fetches to activate his effect even on the play!
Mystical Teachings: Great tutor with a flashback, you can even use it to tutor chain into a Helm.
Flusterstorm: I've found this to be on par with negate. In a control heavy meta this is much better, but if your unsure what the meta is like Negate is usually safer.
Counterspell: Ya its UU, but its also just a big, fat NO. Not the best counterspell but you will probably need a few more all purpose counterspells in this deck.
Bitterblossom: Amazing as an alternative win-con and very aggravating for many aggro decks. Decks like Thrun and Sigarda usually have to remove it to win and it often blocks a large amount of damage from aggro decks like Radha and Exava.
Miscalculation: I think you need more counterspells and this fits the bill perfectly. It has a use at every point in the game.
Umezawa's Jitte: If your playing Stoneforge Mystic you should probably play the best Equipment in the game. Pretty much does everything.
It's a composite of 3 lists and a primer I read. This is actually a revisit to Zur for me. I used to have a list at some point years ago, but it was too derpy. For this weekend I had originally settled on Rafiq, but I found some Zur lists in top 8s.
TY for the advice.
Change log:
- Swiftfoot Boots
- Infest
- Delay
- Energy Field
- Dark Tutelage
+ Umezawa's Jitte
+ Counterspell
+ Bitterblossom
+ Miscalculation
+ Standstill
I plan to make room for Weathered Wayfarer and Mystical Teachings soon, but I'm at work right now, and it's almost time to head home anyway.
Thanks for reading. Please keep the advice coming. I want this thing to be a beast.
EDIT:
Preliminary testing reveals Standstill to be RIDICULOUS. When recurred via Mistveil Plains or Sun Titan, it draws me more cards than Sphinx's Revealation!
Should I consider Divine Reckoning or Winds of Rath?
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Zur's Weirding
Wow, does this get a little broken when you have recurring life gain. Why couldn't it be 3 mana?!
Also, this thing might prompt me to consider running Idyllic Tutor to find it too.
Change log:
- Journey to Nowhere
- Preordain
- Sunder
+ Weathered Wayfarer
+ Mystical Teachings
+ Zur's Weirding
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Homeward Path
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Maze of Ith
Good adds would be, pain lands, glacial fortress lands, river of tears, rishadan port. Id also increase the number of basics to 2 of swamp/plain and rest island. You could drop the mana stones for more lands as well. Some good counters not on your list spell pierece, mental mistep, disenchant, logic knot, forbid, cryptic command, pact of negation (great tolaria late game target) shadow of doubt (Hai Eg), and stifle
Some bigger changes, Id take out non-sfm, confidant, clique, snapcaster creatures. You have zur for alot of the utitliy and u can put other strong spells in their place.
tithe, merchant scroll (2nd force), ponder, preordain are all musts as they will smooth out your deck.
fact or fiction and thirst for knowledge are great draw spells
dismember and go for the throat are >>>>>>>>> path to exile
@ 30 life tutelage is just as much of a win as arena so play both
Jace beleren is playable if you plan of facing alot of creatures.
If there are a couple known tirbal players (even vs iname its ok, and you can kill losts of things with it) engineer plague will be an absolute blowout.
bitterblossom is overated.
Seal of cleansing is a must.
Including bounce spells liek repeal and into the roil are great tempo cards when needed, mix your anwers well, and combo nicely if u tutor an oring and bounce while ability on stack or just pick one up that took a comannder out.
peace and gl
omgmakeme
I would say in developed metas, Zur control is better but in fairly newer metas, Zur Voltron should be easier to pilot and win with.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
Like I said above, my current list started out as a composite of several lists. Your two were among them. Plus I believe I also stated that this is a revisit for me, having played Zur in a 1v1 American EDH list. I realize that the two formats are vastly different, but my experience is not entirely invalid.
Would you care to list my mistakes so that I may correct or at least consider them?
I offer the following rebuttal:
I tend to mostly agree with the Zur Primer I read. Once I land Zur, I'm done with playing anything but Countermagic.
Reliquary Tower is amazing when drawing large volumes of cards, which I plan to do frequently (recurring Standstill).
Hall of the Bandit Lord gives Zur haste, which is very handy since he's 4 mana.
Riptide Laboratory protects Zur and his Wizard friends.
Homeward Path protects against stealy effects. Nothing would suck more than losing to my own general. Of course I shouldn't need to worry about this if everything goes to plan (but since when does that ever happen?).
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth fixes my black mana, which can be useful. Unless I run into Karma or other swamp hate, I'll be fine.
Creeping Tar Pit is bad? Is that because it does 2 of my colors and turns into an unblockable beat stick? I don't understand your logic. Having a few lands that CipT is not gonna kill me. I specifically tried to avoid them where possible, but this thing is too good to pass up.
Maze of Ith says "screw you" to Voltron and Shotgun generals. At least until they can give them protection or destroy this.
What does "non-sfm" mean?
I find it amusing that you would cut the wizard tribe. I suppose these cuts go hand-in-hand with cutting Riptide Laboratory
Bob is better than Dark Tutelage IMO.
Vendilion Clique is another control element. Hand disruption is good, and the Peek effect is always nice.
Tigo Chan is amazing here. What's a control list without him? Reusing target instant/sorcery seems very strong to me, especially late game. And with Riptide Laboratory, it's repeatable.
Spell Pierce is already on the list.
Cryptic Command did not make the cut due to mana requirements.
Mental Mistep is solid, but I need room for it.
Disenchant seems redundant at this point. I have O-Ring, D-Sphere, and Aura of Silence to serve that role.
Logic Knot seems nice, what do you suggest I cut?
Forbid is classic, what can I cut for this?
I'm quite happy with the mana-facts. they are doing their job when I draw them, and not clogging my hand very frequently.
I like
I have been considering adding Pact of Negation, and also Slaughter Pact. I hear Magus of the Moon is a colossal pain (I'm surprised it hasn't been banned yet).
Dark Tutelage was cut for Standstill. It's arguably more broken, especially when recurred.
Fact or Fiction and Thirst for Knowledge are indeed strong, but my current draw package seems to be in order.
Ponder and Preordain were in the original draft list, but were cut due to slot availability.
Dismember and Go for the Throat are currently under consideration, but I'm unsure what to cut for them since I happen to like PtE. currently testing GftT
Jace Beleren was not considered. He's pretty good, but room is tight and sacrifices must be made.
Engineered Plague will be considered but is unlikely to make the list with no evidence of a mid-to-strong tribal presence. It's a meta call. I plan to attempt to scout the meta on Saturday. I doubt I will have much success. I think Rest in Peace is a stronger weapon against Iname lists.
Alright, you've got my attention on Bitterblossom. Why is it overrated? I need room, so make your case.
I like those tricks, but I don't think shinnanigans have any place is a competitive list. If I were to include those, I would be very tempted to include Isochron Scepter and Parallax Wave and Tide. The inclusion of Stick would also prompt the inclusion of Orim's Chant for Chant-Lock.
I can already recur Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere by destroying them with Aura of Silence (which is my Seal of Cleansing stand in FYI), then putting them back in library with Mistveil Plains for re-tutoring. Sun Titan also works for this recursion tactic.
I am very tempted to include Strionic Resonator to copy triggers from Zur, O-Ring, D-Sphere, Legacy's Allure, Sword, Jitte, Sun Titan, Bob, Tigo, Clique, Mystic, and Arena. Does this seem worth it to anyone else?
Also, that stupid guy from M14... Elite Arcanist. I know, terrible but just imagine him with a Boomerang imprinted and a Pemmin's Aura!
I also would like some comments on Zur's Weirding. I figure it can ensure my victory with Zur if I slam it at the right time. Simply deny them anything they need to make progress while gaining life with Zur + Steel. Thoughts, opinions, wild speculations, rants? Anyone?
Under consideration:
Pact of Negation - need room, very good for emergencies
Slaughter Pact - Meta dependant based on the number of RX decks
Strionic Resonator - Theoretically insane in this deck
Engineered Plague - Meta dependant
Logic Knot - another good counter, better late game though.
Forbid - with my card draw, this should be easy to maintain. Should I also run Arcane Sanctum or Rule of Law to go with it?
Mental Misstep - need room for this.
Currently testing:
Bitterblossom -> Merchant Scroll
Path to Exile -> Go for the Throat
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Reliquary Tower is a bad card, don't run it. If you're recurring standstill - then you're winning. No reason to dilute the list with cards that you don't ever want to see until you've already won.
Riptide Laboratory is also a bad card for zur:
1). You can use it in resp. the same turn you play zur. This means you have the mana to just cast him from the command zone next turn.
2). Why do you need to run other wizards? None of them are game-breaking to the point where you should be worried about losing them to a removal spell because you shouldn't really be running many [if any] wizards.
3). Another colorless land.
Similar @ homeward path, but it's much more viable as the effect doesn't remove zur from play; only run if you see/expect control magic effects.
Creeping tar pit and Maze of ith I feel are personal calls, deck can work with either and neither is terrible per-se.
Non-sfm |== creatures that aren't StoneForge Mystic.
BOB >>> Dark Tutelage /agree
Clique is fine.
Forbid is not necessary. Your list should be flooded enough with removal/permission that you don't need 2-1/2 cards per threat to keep going. Remember, you're winning once you're drawing cards regardless.
-Mystical Teachings (it's an over-costed merchant scroll)
+Game Over.
Zur's Weirding could be fun; I don't think it's the most competitive strategy though. Strionic Reasanator is a "win-more" card. Elite Arcanist is just a bad card, unfortunately he's a lot better on paper than in game.
I think GFTT is better than PTE, no reason to give them lands + shuffle effect.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Good point, I'll consider cutting for a more colorful land.
I was thinking more like recurring Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage. I had never planned to use it the same turn as casting Zur.
Oh, how did I miss that one? Derp.
Ok, Forbid is not necessary, but it could be good. I'm gonna test it in some goldfishing.
I like Teachings, it can find Clique, Tigo, and Mindcensor as well as any instant.
The bird wizard hoses tutor-happy decks and neuters fetch-lands pretty hard too. Best of all, it's one-sided.
Nothing is definite yet, but this seems strong.
My theory on Zur's Weirding is this:
If I stick it with an active Zur, it's a prison-style lock short of an in-hand answer since I can deny them any draw which would threaten it. If I happen to have a counter in hand, it's nearly a hard-lock. I can gain the life back via Steel of the Godhead on Zur and I don't care if I'm denied EVERY draw since I don't need to draw additional cards at that point. I can just tutor everything I need.
I was pretty sure Elite Arcanist is terrible. More of a derpy combo piece to a kitchen table deck.
Your reasoning on Resonator sounds plausible. There might be a corner case where it would swing the game in my favor, but not worth it.
Copy Enchantment and Copy Artifact seem like wins-more cards too. Would you tend to agree?
I get the feeling that Flickerform is too clunky to run. At 4 mana to flicker him out, it's no Vanishing, but it's the nearest sub.
Sold! I'll make that change permanent.
Somehow I doubt Spear of Heliod is worth a slot in here. Probably too reactive and it won't kill utility dorks.
Permanent Change:
- Path to Exile
+ Go for the Throat
Testing:
Far // Away -> Forbid - a buyback hard counter seems advantageous.
Reliquary Tower -> Adarkar Wastes - I seemed to be short on WU lands, this one seemed good, may replace with Glacial Fortress.
Should I be using Celestial Colonnade instead of Adarkar Wastes?
TY for the advice all, keep it coming.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I'd honestly run diabolic tutor over mystical teachings. Going from instant >> sorcery speed is kinda meh, but you can fetch any card, and you don't have to reveal it. And I wouldn't run diabolic tutor either, 4 mana is a lot for a tutor.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I'll take it under advisement. I suppose that getting Mindcensor late isn't as backbreaking as I'd like. Turn 4 is pretty late and I'd rather be dropping Zur that turn.
I think it's good for the same reason as Cunning Wish.
I suppose I should start considering alternatives.
Probably Mental Misstep or another hard-counter.
EDIT:
It seems I'm not missing Bitterblossom here. I think I'll make that change permanent too.
Changelog
- Bitterblossom
+ Merchant Scroll
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I will totally concede that Fact or Fiction is much better than Mystical Teachings. I didn't realize he was missing FoF and I would suggest playing it. However I'm still gonna argue that Mystical Teachings is good. First off, instant speed in a control deck is HUGE; it lets you have so many options that Diabolic Tuor and Merchant Scroll do not such as tutoring up a counterspell or removal at instant speed or Tutoring EoT. Secondly, it has Flashback, which means you can use it early to tutor an answer and keep it active to use later in the game. 6 mana is a high price but completely playable in almost every matchup.
Also thank you Omega Furnace for thinking through Beefarow's suggestions. Dont take anyones word for granted in these forums (not even mine). I came to almost all the same conclusions you did. I do think that Reliquary Tower and Homeward Path could be cut. Tower is just unnecessary; like luklinda said, if you're discarding down to seven chances are you have won already. Homeward Path is largely a meta call, as I've found that steal effects are generally much rarer in 1v1 edh than multiplayer. Your creature list is fine (the only borderline guys are Sun Titan and Aven Mindcensor). All of the creatures you're playing have extremely strong effects you just can''t find on spells and are therefore justifiable in a control deck imo.
I also think Zur's Weirding isn't going to do much. It's a win-more card and I'll explain why:
1) Not tutorable by Zur (odd, right?), so dont expect to see it every game'.
2) It goes both ways. This Zur deck isn't a fast killer and I doubt any of your opponents are going to mind cutting off your draws. So you are going to need a STRONG board state to justify playing this. Because if there are any hiccups, this could as easily lose you the game as win it. So basically you need to be winning to play this, and if your winning why do you need it?
I think Fact or Fiction is a good choice over it.
My goldfishing with the deck has suggested that it'll be quite useful.
I tend to take all advice (and especially here) with a grain of salt. I know one of the mods IRL (not sure which one she is) and let's just say that she says there's a good deal of bad advice floating around here. I've seen enough bad advice on other threads to convince me that it's not all gold.
I'll consider replacing Homeward Path with Celestial Colonnade once I get a sense of the meta. I was predicting a low occurance of long-term steal effects in the format. They might come up in red, but I doubt those will be enough to kill me. I doubt I'll be able to scout effectively enough and I doubt people will be shy about playing blue.
I think Mindcensor is strong enough. It's evasive, and has flash (counter-bait?). It's effect on the game state is quite strong and one-sided. It will single-handedly shut down opposing Zur lists and anything else with a strong tutor package (including fetch lands and land ramp), which seems solid enough for my liking.
Sun Titan is a bit like a fatter version of Zur in the late game. Getting all my goodies back from the bin. Alternate finisher. It would go so well with Gift of Immortality, but that card isn't worth the slot. Hell, it's barely worth the paper it's printed on.
I figured Sorin Markov was too clunky for the format.
Yes :nod:, it's ironic that Zur can't tutor his own namesake enchantment.
I feel that my Zur toolbox is good enough that I can handle most threats after Weirding comes down with the toolbox alone. Failing that, I can tutor for Aura of Silence and blow it up myself. Yes, I can be denied every draw from then till the end of the game, but I don't need another draw at all. I tend to think of it as reading:
"Players can't draw cards.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, one of that player's opponents loses 2 life."
Zur may not be invincible on his own, but I'm comparing this one to an Armageddon. Late game, it will probably be a wins-more card, but early it'll be a pretty cheeky and devastating. Taking away their ability to even topdeck answers is very powerful. I'm liable to deny them all draws since I can maintain it longer. I expect Aggro decks to have minimal gas at this point.
I would argue that a turn 4 Zur, followed by turn 5 Weirding with a counter in hand is strong enough baring an overwhelming opposition.
In that kind of scenario my first fetch with Zur would be Pemmin's Aura to untap and block, followed by Steel of the Godhead for lifelink. I doubt much will stand up to that kind of lifegain while I wreck the board advantage with O-Ring and D-Sphere. I can also hobble the ability to attack between Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. I expect Energy Field might be missed here though. Damn do I wish we were playing with sideboards.
However, I also have to concede that I have a strong bias towards combos. So my intuition may be off here.
I was also thinking about Torpor Orb, since I hear that most players forgo instant/sorcery answers to artifacts/enchantments in favor of creatures that kill them on entry or as an ability (this comes from the rules council's reasoning behind the Humility banning, pathetic). It only hoses 1 of my guys where it would pretty much have it's way with most Animar lists.
What do you guys think about Crackdown? I don't think it's viable for mainboard, but in a sideboarded event, this could be a house.
Still considering:
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Cut Journey to Nowhere: You have O-Ring and Detention Sphere to tutor for. This is worse than Path to Exile.
Cut Armageddon. This is nowhere near as good as Cataclysm, and will not actually let you stabilize with Zur in play against far too many board positions. I know why it's in - it'll be a dead card way too often.
Cut Legacy's Allure. This is never your prime Zur tutor target for removal, and is just way too slow. You're not mono blue, you have no need for such unreliable ways to deal with creatures.
Cut Aura of Silence. The extra mana makes this much worse than Seal of Cleansing. Unless you plan on seeing Arcum Dagson artifact.deck, the tax effect is irrelevant (since you'll be tutoring for it to kill an artifact right away almost 99% of the time).
Cut Aven Mindcensor: Part of the reason creatures like this are good is because they disrupt while simultaneously advancing your game plan. Zur's gameplan is not advanced by a 2/1 beater - this isn't a maverick style deck. You also play only one equipment, which is the prime way utility creatures actually put pressure. Much better to just have a counter in this slot.
Cut Sun Titan. Your best 6 drop is replaying Zur; simple as that. You also lack sufficient targets actually worth bringing back (there's no recurring nightmare here).
Cut Zur's Weirding. You'll win 80% of more of the games Zur is around and swinging - you want to get to that board state, not help stabilize it with more cards.
Cut Propaganda / Ghostly Prison. This is better served as Solitary Confinement and a free slot. There's no way you need this much anti aggro tech when you're playing 3 wrath effects.
Cut Damnation or Wrath of God. Speaking of which - 3 wrath effects is way too many in a deck that also plays Mystical Tutor + Demonic Tutor. Unless you plan on seeing tokens galore, holding wraths in hand is counter to playing Zur. One or two is fine; not three. I would put another spot removal in this spot - I like hero's downfall here.
Cut Mystical Teachings. I agree with what others have said. This card is way too slow for a deck like Zur. Teachings is far better suited for the most hard control decks like Thraximundar, whereas Zur is just too good at shifting into a more aggressive playstyle if the matchup suits it. I wouldn't sacrifice that versatility by overloading the deck with clunky finishers (when Zur is the best finisher anyway). You want good counter magic to play the control game, but also want flexibility.
Other notes:
36 mana producing lands is way too little. I would play 39 or 40 + maze. You want to hit a land drop ever turn until minimum turn 6, and you simply can't do that consistently with 36 lands + maze.
You need a more consistent early game. I would play Thirst for Knowledge / Sign in Blood / Night's Whisper. They go a long way towards smoothing out early hands, and are extremely cost effective for what they do.
You also want more hard counters. Counterspell is basically your only one at the moment. I would look at Swan Song, or a simple Negate.
DERP!:
So dopey me, I used my sleeves to count out the deck. After adding it up, I'm at 103 :o, including general. I need 3 cuts people. Awkward.
On the other hand, at least I caught it in time and 3 extra sleeves!
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
- Legacy's Allure
- Gitaxian Probe
- Propaganda
- Ghostly Prison
- Damnation
+ Solitary Confinement
+ Pact of Negation
Well, that solves that problem. Thoughts?
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Journey to Nowhere was cut a while ago
Hmm, I'm skeptical of this one, I'll keep it for now. But I'll think about this one.
Done, it's pretty slow.
I wouldn't doubt seeing an Arcum Dagson deck.
You make a strong case there. I'll consider it.
Should I be running Recurring Nightmare?
done and done
done to make room
Zur should be a 6+ turn clock. Particularly if I have to keep counter-mana up. I think I'd rather have it for those long games.
Looking for the room, it's hard to fit everything in all at once.
Added Pact of Negation and Forbid
change log:
- Legacy's Allure
- Gitaxian Probe
- Propaganda
- Ghostly Prison
- Damnation
+ Solitary Confinement
+ Pact of Negation
Well, that solves that problem. Thoughts?
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
1) You have no way to take advantage of it in a vacuum - you play only 2 mana rocks. So if you're resolving Armageddon, you'll have no means of generating mana either.
2) Cataclysm is 95% of the time a better tutor target. If it isn't, it means you have so many enchantments in play, it's difficult to see how you're losing.
3) Most importantly, Armageddon simply doesn't seal the game like you think it does. Some decks can win against an active Zur - it's definitely extremely difficult, but still doable. Against these decks, if you've managed to gain board control, there's basically no way for them to take it back, given we're talking about midrange or tempo decks here. Consequently, destroying all lands is just the definition of "winmore".
Alternatively, hard control decks, which can take back board position from an active Zur (either through a board sweeper or a flurry of removal spells) will never let you resolve Armageddon. In that sense, it's basically just a 4 mana sorcery spell that reads "Target opponent discards one counter". Obviously that's horribly unoptimal, and most hard control decks will punish you for tapping out.
As for Sun Titan
Mentioning Recurring Nightmare was an analogy - the point is that most of the time you'll bring a fetchland back into play, and that's just not good enough. If you really want another creature, play Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. It's tutorable with Mystical Teachings (then letting you using teachings to tutor for any other creature in your deck), and also lets you resolve Zur at their end of turn, basically sealing the game in your favor.
I also very much like Gitaxian Probe, and would prefer Swan Song to Pact of Negation.
I also don't know if you've cut Zur's Weirding already, but if not, I would.
I also don't know how much I like Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of Feast and Famine in here.
I'm skeptical of your assessment of Armageddon. I realize that it doesn't win the game on it's own, or even when backing up Zur. But in a vacuum under reasonable circumstances in constructed, no card really can. There's almost always an answer, my experience with my Karona Prison list has taught me to consider that.
And wouldn't those same decks do the same thing to a Cataclysm? My typical answer to a counter-heavy meta is to start with running Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Probably a bad idea. By my count, it only helps 14 of my cards (counterable instant/sorcery with at least 1 colorless mana in the cost and no APC).
Sun Titan might go. In the rare instances where I draw it, it does seem to be dead more often than I'd like.
I liked Gitaxian Probe too. And Preordain, Ponder, Portent (this is a lot of 'P's), Serum Visions, and Ancestral Vision. Problem is that the direction I'm taking doesn't leave room for them.
I was aiming for a generalized hard counter. Swan Song is nice, but it's essentially a harder version of Flusterstorm. My understanding of EDH is that enchantments are typically very rare in most metas. I think the next counter I would add is Negate or Mental Misstep.
It's still in. I know it's slow and cuts both ways. I don't care that it does. If I can land it with an active Zur, protected Jace, or any superior board position, it will seal my victory. At the very least, it's FoW fodder
I find them to be useful. Sword lets me more freely abuse Pemmin's Aura, Mistveil Plains, and a few other goodies. Jitte is good for obvious reasons. Both speed up my clock, which I like, and have other effects. I doubt the dual protections from Sword with be overly relevant
Should I include Unquestioned Authority or Spirit Mantle? I'm more inclined to go with the latter for the mana cost and minor buff over the former's cantrip. Probably not since it's a purely defensive thing.
I also find myself dreaming of stupid tricks like Infernal Tribute to make D-Sphere and O-Ring permanent. Pity it's clunky, inefficient, and stupid.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I went in expecting to see at least 1 Animar List and was pleasantly surprised to find it absent. I understand that it's not a good matchup.
The meta:
2 Mayael the Anima
1 Rosheen Meanderer
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
1 Sen Triplets
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Zur the Enchanter (Me)
1st Place: Me with Zur
2nd Place: Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
3rd Place: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Round 1: Sen Triplets 2-0
A derpy mod on a multiplayer group hug list.
Round 2: Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief 2-0
Presumably MBC, 'Geddon ruined his day.
Round 3: Lyzolda, the Blood Witch 2-0
I was a little worried about this one. He was running Mikaeus combos.
The list as I ran it:
1 Zur the Enchanter
Lands (37 + Maze):
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Mystic Gate
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Fetid Heath
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Wasteland
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Homeward Path
Creatures (9):
One-Drops:
1 Weathered Wayfarer
Two-Drops:
1 Spellskite
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tidehollow Sculler
Three-Drops:
1 Vendilion Clique
Six-Drops:
1 Sun Titan
Planeswalkers (2):
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
Equipment (3):
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Non-Creature Artifacts (5):
1 Expedition Map
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Helm of Obedience
Instants (14):
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Tithe
1 Force Spike
1 Spell Snare
1 Daze
1 Counterspell
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Evasive Action
1 Force of Will
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Castigate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon
Enchantments (11):
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Rest in Peace
1 Hesitation
1 Standstill
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Detention Sphere
1 Zur's Weirding
Auras (3):
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Pemmin's Aura
1 Prison Term
Explanation for last minute changes:
Other cards I'm mulling over:
Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond - I'm leaning away from these because of their inherent card-disadvantage, but they still bear mention. While they might enable more explosive starts, those will probably be too rare to be worth it.
Mesmiric Fiend - Yes another targeted discard. I take a piece of removal and force them to use another to get it back. Either way, it seems good.
Impressions:
All in all, I'm happy with how the deck performed, but disappointed that I didn't get to put it through it's paces more thoroughly. I would have liked a sharper meta to get a proper idea of it's capabilities and limitations.
Thank you to everyone who posted advice, arguments, suggestions, and help. Without them, I doubt this deck would have become what it is now.
I will be checking back periodically in case anyone has any further insights.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
And from your list... they're not much of a threat to Zur.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
7 other players, so 8 total with me in the mix.
It was, admittedly, a pretty soft meta.
The tourney was at Game Stars. It's a shop in Langley, BC that I've been hanging out at.
Unfortunately, my victory was darkened by the fact that we only got 8 players, which wasn't enough to meet the minimum turnout for the From the Vault: 20 to be offered up as the top prize. I still can't complain though, since I got a nice chunk of store credit.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."