At first I didn't think this deck had any potential, and frankly, I laughed my ass off when I saw my freind David playing this in out last PTQ. Well, as always, he shut me up by placing T8 with it. It's incredible how fast this deck can end a game, as well as fix it's whole entire base by turn 2. Here is the list (to the best of my knowledge):
Note both the Flames and the Might. Both can help end the game, and both hit for at least 4. I have seen this deck swing with a 6/x Swiftblade turn 3 many times.
The SB seems a bit eskew, and I def. don't agree with the Plagues in the board. In that one toureny, there was a total of 1 Goblin deck.
The reason for this thread is because I feel that both this deck is competative, but it could do a bit better, especialy in regards to SB. If the majority of the other posters don't feel the same, I'll gladly let this slide into Casual or Decks for Critique.
EDIT: I apoligize for the lack in deck tags, but the deck refuses to be tagged properly.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
This deck and decks similar to it have placed in multiple PTQs, so it does belong here (that is to say, if Goblins can go here, so can this); no worries about misplacing it.
The SB needs Plagues. Soldiers against most builds of Chant, Goblins against (derf) Goblins, Psychatog on 2 wins the game, etc, etc. However, I think Magma Jet and Shock could become Lightning Helix (pulling this out of my butt completely) as White and Red seem to be the two main colors of the deck... and if this thing can regularly cast Swiftblade, there's no reason it can't do the same w/ Helix. And with the amount of damage delt by lands, it seems that Helix can turn games from "You have too much life to win before I hit 0" to "You have less life and I have more time to reduce you to 0."
The deck seems to scream out for Jitte, yet it's packed so tight with "SURPRISE, I JUST WON!" cards that Jitte's Sorcery speed (and 4 mana or 2 mana w/ Echo cost) may simply not be fast enough. Cloak's median between the two costs of Jitte (that sounds like a great article title, doesn't it?), auto-lifegain bonus, and auto-pump makes it an obvious boon when compared to Jitte, which takes some momentum before it does things (EG: win the game). Jitte also doesn't give your creatures trample, which is why Predator's Strike is so key- in a deck w/ this much aggro, to sit around and be chumped all day gives you an auto-loss against most decks and is basically the entire reason why Goblins can't survive here.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a "your friend" original, but the cards he chose in his build are certainly well thought out and well placed. I'd make an arguement for SB Putrefy and Helix as a last word on this- helix for the reasons above and Putrefy because it kills everything.
Some weaknesses: CAL drops Loxodon or Overgrown Estate and you simply lose. Moment's Peace in Brainfeeze spells the difference between win and loss on the result slip. Oxidize seems pointless with Kataki included; the only way it'll work against chant is if they stick you turn 1-2 and leave nothing open to counter with. If they're doing that without being at a lethal life total against you, then they're playing Chant wrong.
[EMAIL="Edit@everyone"]Edit@everyone[/EMAIL] questioning Strike: PS is included because it gives trample and damage to your guy. The reason it's good is because of "Goblins Example"- if your opponent can chump you all day in the environment, you're going to lose and badly. Strike's trample pushed damage through chumps. Not everything in this deck revolves around a Swiftblade-combo; Jitte+swiftblade didn't make it in standard.
I'm not really sure on the CAL matchup thing...Estate would be the pits, but Hierarch I can see just up and dying to Flames or whatnot. But yeah, maybe replace the Oxidizes with Naturalize? At this that way I would be able to shrug off a turn 3 Confinment.
On the Plague thing: It just seems to me that it would not be worth the turn 3 drop disrupting your tempo, just to *try* to take care of tog. By the time they would be ready to play it with enough backup, the game should be within a turn of winning anyway. And besides, like I said, Gobs are nearly non-existant over here.
I wouldn't really know how to deal with the Peace thing. Just seems like a case where if they have it, it becomes that much harder to win, but if they don't, they scoop.
But yeah, I would much rather have the 'I WIN' cards (love that name, btw) than Jitte, becuase the Jitte just seems like a mondo tempo-disruptor in this deck, and those things are bad.
I def. agree on the whole Helix thing, but, even then, I would have no idea what it would come in for. If used for removal, then it would probably just be better in the main, but that is what Flames is for.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I'm not really sure on the CAL matchup thing...Estate would be the pits, but Hierarch I can see just up and dying to Flames or whatnot. But yeah, maybe replace the Oxidizes with Naturalize? At this that way I would be able to shrug off a turn 3 Confinment.
Heirarch forces you to direct burn at him, otherwise he sits and eats your guys. He also gains your opponent 4 life when he comes into play, which was basically the entire reason I made the comment I did. He's a 4 life swing w/ a fat body- that's not good for a weenie swarm that's going all in for a kill.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
On the Plague thing: It just seems to me that it would not be worth the turn 3 drop disrupting your tempo, just to *try* to take care of tog.
Tog already seems like a 50/50 for this deck- being able to end the game (or name illusion against Meloku) by dropping a 3 mana enchantment is a decent trade off.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
I wouldn't really know how to deal with the Peace thing. Just seems like a case where if they have it, it becomes that much harder to win, but if they don't, they scoop.
You should probably read up on Nevermind- every moment's peace gives them 2 more turns to win which easily turns into 0 assuming they draw and kind of gas at all. If they get the engine going, an aggro deck cannot win.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
I def. agree on the whole Helix thing, but, even then, I would have no idea what it would come in for. If used for removal, then it would probably just be better in the main, but that is what Flames is for.
Whatever your friend sided Shock and Magma Jet in for will probably need the Helix. I can also see it as a pretty good answer against non-LD BDW (you will lose if you're playing against an LD BDW that has drawn it's LD).
Heirarch forces you to direct burn at him, otherwise he sits and eats your guys. He also gains your opponent 4 life when he comes into play, which was basically the entire reason I made the comment I did. He's a 4 life swing w/ a fat body- that's not good for a weenie swarm that's going all in for a kill.
I agree completely that Hierarch is a large hurdle, but it's def. not the end all for the deck. In fact, it would seem that all it would take is a PS or a Might/Flames to deal with it.
The Hierarch really would not be the end gamer, the Confinment or another thing with the time bought would be the game ender. Whenever I have seen fat vs this deck, it handles it better than a normal BDW would do.
Tog already seems like a 50/50 for this deck- being able to end the game (or name illusion against Meloku) by dropping a 3 mana enchantment is a decent trade off.
I'm not so sure on the percentages vs Tog. Theoretically, this deck should have the upper hand, because of it's ability to have one creature swing for an alarming amount, as well as the ability to catch Tog unawares with a hit for 5 in the head. I'll have to see how favorable the matchup is, though.
You should probably read up on Nevermind- every moment's peace gives them 2 more turns to win which easily turns into 0 assuming they draw and kind of gas at all. If they get the engine going, an aggro deck cannot win.
I agree MP is a big nuisance, but, like I said, what are you going to do about it? Off the top of my head, there is not much you can do. Coffin Purge would be the pits, and their is not much more I can think of. If you think of any, though, feel free to share them.
Whatever your friend sided Shock and Magma Jet in for will probably need the Helix. I can also see it as a pretty good answer against non-LD BDW (you will lose if you're playing against an LD BDW that has drawn it's LD).
Yeah, the LD is a pretty big threat vs this. Not so much for the mana deial thing, but for the 3 mana per land deal. Itgets you dangerously low, especially when you are playing a deck with Char, Helix, and Dart, all ready and willing to go to the face in a pinch.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I agree completely that Hierarch is a large hurdle, but it's def. not the end all for the deck. In fact, it would seem that all it would take is a PS or a Might/Flames to deal with it.
The tempo swing from Heirarch is the point I was making- you need to spend the burn that should clock out your opponent on a 4/4 elephant and then make up the difference in life he brings to the table. I don't mean it's a game ender, but it certainly gives them a running start towards finding and comboing you out.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
I'm not so sure on the percentages vs Tog. Theoretically, this deck should have the upper hand, because of it's ability to have one creature swing for an alarming amount, as well as the ability to catch Tog unawares with a hit for 5 in the head. I'll have to see how favorable the matchup is, though.
I was talking specifically about the bad synnergy your/friend's deck has against Darkblast seeing the MMORPX/1's in the deck. Smother kills wolves and mongrels that their darkblast (probably) can't. The deck also has no discernable way to deal with a live tog. That's why I threw 50/50 as a number- they have counters for stupid things like Cloak, early beats (force spike is the pants owner against this, I imagine), burn, and impossible creatures... aimed respectively at whatever needs to die (EG: they won't counter the Bob because they have the darkblast, but they will counter the cloak you put on him).
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
I agree MP is a big nuisance, but, like I said, what are you going to do about it? Off the top of my head, there is not much you can do. Coffin Purge would be the pits, and their is not much more I can think of. If you think of any, though, feel free to share them.
Off the top of my head, flaring pain seems like a suitable slot. The SB seems really packed, but if you think EP can go, I'm sure 2-3 FP would fill the void.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
Yeah, the LD is a pretty big threat vs this. Not so much for the mana deial thing, but for the 3 mana per land deal. Itgets you dangerously low, especially when you are playing a deck with Char, Helix, and Dart, all ready and willing to go to the face in a pinch.
I'd take your approach to MP w/ LD- there's not much you can logically do except play more lands and less non-basic ones. Since that's crazy talk, I don't know what to say about this.
The tempo swing from Heirarch is the point I was making
mmm, that is the issue with the damn elephant. aside from being an efficient beater at 4 for a 4/4, the man blocks your men all day long (sans a pump effect, but then thats a 2 for 1 right there for them, in addition to massive tempo), and intsead of dealing 20 damage now you need to deal 24. if you are aiming tribal flames at that man to keep him off the board, thats one less 4 or 5 point blast to the dome you arent dealing them. that essentially gives them more time to find a confinement or burning wish up and answer.
In my area people have been running a fair amount of RG beats, some with the splash white for the zoo look. one spot of nifty tech is moldervine cloak, aside from making men huge, it provides a recurring pump effect and it fattens lavamancer up like a christmas goose.
Driver, hows swiftblade working out? hes seems kind of meh to me just looking at him on paper, but if he is tried and true Ill take your word for it.
I know that Kudzu was kind of nixed already, but I will say; I ran into this deck online and the man I was playing was running the plant. Im sure you are well aware of this, but in conjunction with fetchlands kudzu gets two counters for each one you play and pop off after he is in play.
I think the first change I would make would be -1 isamaru for +1 watch wolf. ape and lions and 3 isamaru I think would round out the 1 drop section nicely, mine aswell go for the two slot beef.
just thinking about this, there are so many directions you can take this thing. but yeah, it looks pretty good :).
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
Swiftblade is actually pretty much gold in this deck. With a possible 6 pump spells, each one at least resulting in 8 dmg to the opponents dome. Even without it, it's essentially a 1/2 that eats x/1's for breakfast.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
have you thought about heirarch at all? I know he costs 4 which is a little high for this deck, but hey a 4/4 man that helps game 1 against affinity,BDW,Goblins seems to be worth a look at.
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Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
affinity and goblins are getting hated into the realm of unplayability. i would rather focus on the control, combo, and aggro/control matchups - tog, cal, bdw, desire, etc. because this seems to be where the format is going. of course, pt honolulu will be a definitive look at the format right now, but it will also be the end of the season, so...*shrugs*
affinity and goblins are getting hated into the realm of unplayability. i would rather focus on the control, combo, and aggro/control matchups - tog, cal, bdw, desire, etc. because this seems to be where the format is going. of course, pt honolulu will be a definitive look at the format right now, but it will also be the end of the season, so...*shrugs*
Goblins aren't being hated at all at the moment - simply because goblins don't stand a chance vs top tier decks in the environment.
If anything, it is Ravager that's getting hated / splash damaged by decks like BDW / Chant running kataki, dredgeatog sporting pernicious deed for CAL, The Rock sporting putrefy for both tog / scepter also being able to hit ravager.
Despite so much factors working against it, ravager is putting up surprising amount of numbers in the qualifier. This trend as well as my playtesting results lead me to believe that it's definintely something that you should watch out for.
Coincidentially, it's also one of the easiest deck to run in terms of the learning curve. Having said that, one should always be aware of Ravager's huge swining potential that can come out of nowhere - especially if you're running a beatdown deck yourself.
I know this is going to sound janky, but there's a common White spell that potentially answers annoying things like Tog and Hierarch.
Pacifism.
Yeah, yeah... it's only good in draft, right? Maybe. However, your aggressiveness will force Tog to play their creature pretty early. Even if they still have counter mana up, you can play a threat and get them to counter that, then Pacify their Tog. Against Hierarch, they still get the 4 life, but at least you don't have a 4/4 eating one of your attackers every turn.
I know this is going to sound janky, but there's a common White spell that potentially answers annoying things like Tog and Hierarch.
Pacifism.
Yeah, yeah... it's only good in draft, right? Maybe. However, your aggressiveness will force Tog to play their creature pretty early. Even if they still have counter mana up, you can play a threat and get them to counter that, then Pacify their Tog. Against Hierarch, they still get the 4 life, but at least you don't have a 4/4 eating one of your attackers every turn.
Thats actually what I have been debating. It fits the curve pretty well, and does what it is supposed to do: Get your creatures to there face.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Meloku is really the only legendary creature you have to worry about. The problem with Iwamori is that he costs 4, which is a lot for this deck. His built-in trample is saucy with Gaea's Might, but I think the 4-cc does him in.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Ah, I remeber David. Beat me to a pulp first game, that he did. Second game he failed. Third I was stupid, but that's just how the game goes. I was playing Balancing Tings, and yes, the deck generally plays only 2-3 lands, and that's it. So after a Tings, it was generally hard for him to recover. Boros Swiftblade was very efficient, as I had to keep on destroying that first, since he kept trying to put a Cloak or pump him. The domain-idea was very nice, as often he'd be killing my Anurid Brushhopper or me with Tribal Flames very often. And here I thought Domain decks were going to make a comeback.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
It seems to me (though I'm not a zoo expert) that Lavamancer is "meh" at best in this deck. Hear me out. If you have enough crap in the yard to make him really become a threat, your 2 mana per turn is better spent on new spells. You have a lot of land free, you say? Time to check and fatten up the curve then. Going by the original deck the changes I've made are:
Cloak is a tough call and there's certainly reason to leave it in, but I personally would like to avoid "swiftbladetrix.dec" and replace it with a last line of defense in Moments Peace. Lavamancers for Hierarchs and Ascetics are a more reliable beatdown, both of which have great abilities. Watchwolf for Isamaru is personal preference.
On to the sideboard. I like Kataki in here, definitely. But Kataki and Oxidize are overkill (unless you're in an area with lots of affinity of course). E Plague is also suspect, you should be able to beat down any goblins you come up against. To be honest, I gutted the SB (sans Kataki) and changed it to more of a work-board.
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Putrefy
3 Kami of Ancient Law
Needles to stop...most things (fetchlands, togs, seismic assaults), Putrefy for Creature/Artifact hate, Kami of Ancient Law for Enchantment hate, Kataki for artifact hate that also beats on the side.
Okay, long post but I had to decide that I like zoo first. Check.
Dropping Lavamancer's is a big mistake. It gives you the deperately needed edge vs BDW, as well as still getting in a few points despite being stalled out via Moment's Peace. And I would never, ever, think about dropping Cloak. It is just to ridiculously good in this deck, and it fits the curve perfectly.
I won't advocate the running of any 3-4cc creatures. This deck DESPERATELY needs to be swinging for the face asap. You can't do that good enough with dropping Troll turn 3, as opposed to doing something like Lions and Wolf, or Grim, Lions, and Hound, or something retarded like that.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
It seems to me (though I'm not a zoo expert) that Lavamancer is "meh" at best in this deck. Hear me out. If you have enough crap in the yard to make him really become a threat, your 2 mana per turn is better spent on new spells.
Lavamancer costs only R to activate (besides removing the cards, of course). It's a recursive damage source that can slip out under countermagic and gives you more outs against any matchup. There's no way I'd take Grimmy out.
-2 Cloak
No. Cloak is VERY good. It single-handedly can swing an aggro matchup. Cloak changes the math for any deck that wants you beat you by turning men sideways, and that's way too good to pass up.
+2 Moment's Peace
This is an aggressive deck. It has a low mana curve and a pretty high threat density. Why would you gum that up by playing a Fog effect?
+2 Loxodon Hierarch
Not supported by the mana, IMO. Your curve effectively stops at 2. A few 3-drops is fine; anything beyond that is asking more of the manabase than it was designed to do.
Bear in mind I didn't get to playtest any of those calls. They didn't look too bad theoretically though.
'Mancer I just don't know about. It's not the mana more than "Will there be enough cards in the yard to merit running four of him?". Is there usually?
I said Cloak is good and I meant it, but as a 2-of, I just don't see it as being reliable enough, but on that note I'd have no problem if it were a 3- or 4-of.
MP is a personal preference. Do you notice a complete lack of fliers in the deck? Because I do. Needle Storm would be a good substitute but the curve is a bit much. You would prefer Firebolt maybe?
Hierarch might not have the mana base, you're right. But he's the only thing in the 4-slot. He swung the curve a total of 2 cards, and I'd rather have (possible) late-game versatility than more of the same aggro that my opponent probably has figured out.
Good points all around, though. Reiterating, this was stuff that looked good on paper. We know how that goes, eh.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Watery Grave
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
2 Watchwolf
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Wild Mongrel
4 Kird Ape
4 Dark Confidant
3 Savannah Lions
4 Boros Swiftblade
2 Armadillo Cloak
3 Predator's Strike
4 Tribal Flames
3 Gaea's Might
4 Oxidize
1 Shock
2 Magma Jet
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Engineered Plague
Note both the Flames and the Might. Both can help end the game, and both hit for at least 4. I have seen this deck swing with a 6/x Swiftblade turn 3 many times.
The SB seems a bit eskew, and I def. don't agree with the Plagues in the board. In that one toureny, there was a total of 1 Goblin deck.
The reason for this thread is because I feel that both this deck is competative, but it could do a bit better, especialy in regards to SB. If the majority of the other posters don't feel the same, I'll gladly let this slide into Casual or Decks for Critique.
EDIT: I apoligize for the lack in deck tags, but the deck refuses to be tagged properly.
I don't know how exactly useful Strike really is, but it is brutal with a single Swiftblade, and that+Might+creature equals lots to the dome.
The SB needs Plagues. Soldiers against most builds of Chant, Goblins against (derf) Goblins, Psychatog on 2 wins the game, etc, etc. However, I think Magma Jet and Shock could become Lightning Helix (pulling this out of my butt completely) as White and Red seem to be the two main colors of the deck... and if this thing can regularly cast Swiftblade, there's no reason it can't do the same w/ Helix. And with the amount of damage delt by lands, it seems that Helix can turn games from "You have too much life to win before I hit 0" to "You have less life and I have more time to reduce you to 0."
The deck seems to scream out for Jitte, yet it's packed so tight with "SURPRISE, I JUST WON!" cards that Jitte's Sorcery speed (and 4 mana or 2 mana w/ Echo cost) may simply not be fast enough. Cloak's median between the two costs of Jitte (that sounds like a great article title, doesn't it?), auto-lifegain bonus, and auto-pump makes it an obvious boon when compared to Jitte, which takes some momentum before it does things (EG: win the game). Jitte also doesn't give your creatures trample, which is why Predator's Strike is so key- in a deck w/ this much aggro, to sit around and be chumped all day gives you an auto-loss against most decks and is basically the entire reason why Goblins can't survive here.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a "your friend" original, but the cards he chose in his build are certainly well thought out and well placed. I'd make an arguement for SB Putrefy and Helix as a last word on this- helix for the reasons above and Putrefy because it kills everything.
Some weaknesses: CAL drops Loxodon or Overgrown Estate and you simply lose. Moment's Peace in Brainfeeze spells the difference between win and loss on the result slip. Oxidize seems pointless with Kataki included; the only way it'll work against chant is if they stick you turn 1-2 and leave nothing open to counter with. If they're doing that without being at a lethal life total against you, then they're playing Chant wrong.
[EMAIL="Edit@everyone"]Edit@everyone[/EMAIL] questioning Strike: PS is included because it gives trample and damage to your guy. The reason it's good is because of "Goblins Example"- if your opponent can chump you all day in the environment, you're going to lose and badly. Strike's trample pushed damage through chumps. Not everything in this deck revolves around a Swiftblade-combo; Jitte+swiftblade didn't make it in standard.
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On the Plague thing: It just seems to me that it would not be worth the turn 3 drop disrupting your tempo, just to *try* to take care of tog. By the time they would be ready to play it with enough backup, the game should be within a turn of winning anyway. And besides, like I said, Gobs are nearly non-existant over here.
I wouldn't really know how to deal with the Peace thing. Just seems like a case where if they have it, it becomes that much harder to win, but if they don't, they scoop.
But yeah, I would much rather have the 'I WIN' cards (love that name, btw) than Jitte, becuase the Jitte just seems like a mondo tempo-disruptor in this deck, and those things are bad.
I def. agree on the whole Helix thing, but, even then, I would have no idea what it would come in for. If used for removal, then it would probably just be better in the main, but that is what Flames is for.
Heirarch forces you to direct burn at him, otherwise he sits and eats your guys. He also gains your opponent 4 life when he comes into play, which was basically the entire reason I made the comment I did. He's a 4 life swing w/ a fat body- that's not good for a weenie swarm that's going all in for a kill.
Tog already seems like a 50/50 for this deck- being able to end the game (or name illusion against Meloku) by dropping a 3 mana enchantment is a decent trade off.
You should probably read up on Nevermind- every moment's peace gives them 2 more turns to win which easily turns into 0 assuming they draw and kind of gas at all. If they get the engine going, an aggro deck cannot win.
Whatever your friend sided Shock and Magma Jet in for will probably need the Helix. I can also see it as a pretty good answer against non-LD BDW (you will lose if you're playing against an LD BDW that has drawn it's LD).
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I agree completely that Hierarch is a large hurdle, but it's def. not the end all for the deck. In fact, it would seem that all it would take is a PS or a Might/Flames to deal with it.
The Hierarch really would not be the end gamer, the Confinment or another thing with the time bought would be the game ender. Whenever I have seen fat vs this deck, it handles it better than a normal BDW would do.
I'm not so sure on the percentages vs Tog. Theoretically, this deck should have the upper hand, because of it's ability to have one creature swing for an alarming amount, as well as the ability to catch Tog unawares with a hit for 5 in the head. I'll have to see how favorable the matchup is, though.
I agree MP is a big nuisance, but, like I said, what are you going to do about it? Off the top of my head, there is not much you can do. Coffin Purge would be the pits, and their is not much more I can think of. If you think of any, though, feel free to share them.
Yeah, the LD is a pretty big threat vs this. Not so much for the mana deial thing, but for the 3 mana per land deal. Itgets you dangerously low, especially when you are playing a deck with Char, Helix, and Dart, all ready and willing to go to the face in a pinch.
The tempo swing from Heirarch is the point I was making- you need to spend the burn that should clock out your opponent on a 4/4 elephant and then make up the difference in life he brings to the table. I don't mean it's a game ender, but it certainly gives them a running start towards finding and comboing you out.
I was talking specifically about the bad synnergy your/friend's deck has against Darkblast seeing the MMORPX/1's in the deck. Smother kills wolves and mongrels that their darkblast (probably) can't. The deck also has no discernable way to deal with a live tog. That's why I threw 50/50 as a number- they have counters for stupid things like Cloak, early beats (force spike is the pants owner against this, I imagine), burn, and impossible creatures... aimed respectively at whatever needs to die (EG: they won't counter the Bob because they have the darkblast, but they will counter the cloak you put on him).
Off the top of my head, flaring pain seems like a suitable slot. The SB seems really packed, but if you think EP can go, I'm sure 2-3 FP would fill the void.
I'd take your approach to MP w/ LD- there's not much you can logically do except play more lands and less non-basic ones. Since that's crazy talk, I don't know what to say about this.
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mmm, that is the issue with the damn elephant. aside from being an efficient beater at 4 for a 4/4, the man blocks your men all day long (sans a pump effect, but then thats a 2 for 1 right there for them, in addition to massive tempo), and intsead of dealing 20 damage now you need to deal 24. if you are aiming tribal flames at that man to keep him off the board, thats one less 4 or 5 point blast to the dome you arent dealing them. that essentially gives them more time to find a confinement or burning wish up and answer.
In my area people have been running a fair amount of RG beats, some with the splash white for the zoo look. one spot of nifty tech is moldervine cloak, aside from making men huge, it provides a recurring pump effect and it fattens lavamancer up like a christmas goose.
Driver, hows swiftblade working out? hes seems kind of meh to me just looking at him on paper, but if he is tried and true Ill take your word for it.
I know that Kudzu was kind of nixed already, but I will say; I ran into this deck online and the man I was playing was running the plant. Im sure you are well aware of this, but in conjunction with fetchlands kudzu gets two counters for each one you play and pop off after he is in play.
I think the first change I would make would be -1 isamaru for +1 watch wolf. ape and lions and 3 isamaru I think would round out the 1 drop section nicely, mine aswell go for the two slot beef.
just thinking about this, there are so many directions you can take this thing. but yeah, it looks pretty good :).
Anon - control RGW
Anon - control RGW
Anon - control RGW
Anon - control RGW
Goblins aren't being hated at all at the moment - simply because goblins don't stand a chance vs top tier decks in the environment.
If anything, it is Ravager that's getting hated / splash damaged by decks like BDW / Chant running kataki, dredgeatog sporting pernicious deed for CAL, The Rock sporting putrefy for both tog / scepter also being able to hit ravager.
Despite so much factors working against it, ravager is putting up surprising amount of numbers in the qualifier. This trend as well as my playtesting results lead me to believe that it's definintely something that you should watch out for.
Coincidentially, it's also one of the easiest deck to run in terms of the learning curve. Having said that, one should always be aware of Ravager's huge swining potential that can come out of nowhere - especially if you're running a beatdown deck yourself.
Pacifism.
Yeah, yeah... it's only good in draft, right? Maybe. However, your aggressiveness will force Tog to play their creature pretty early. Even if they still have counter mana up, you can play a threat and get them to counter that, then Pacify their Tog. Against Hierarch, they still get the 4 life, but at least you don't have a 4/4 eating one of your attackers every turn.
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Thats actually what I have been debating. It fits the curve pretty well, and does what it is supposed to do: Get your creatures to there face.
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- Natsume
-4 Lavamancer, -2 Cloak, -1 Isamaru, +1 Watchwolf, +2 Moment's Peace, +2 Loxodon Hierarch, +2 Troll Ascetic.
Cloak is a tough call and there's certainly reason to leave it in, but I personally would like to avoid "swiftbladetrix.dec" and replace it with a last line of defense in Moments Peace. Lavamancers for Hierarchs and Ascetics are a more reliable beatdown, both of which have great abilities. Watchwolf for Isamaru is personal preference.
On to the sideboard. I like Kataki in here, definitely. But Kataki and Oxidize are overkill (unless you're in an area with lots of affinity of course). E Plague is also suspect, you should be able to beat down any goblins you come up against. To be honest, I gutted the SB (sans Kataki) and changed it to more of a work-board.
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Putrefy
3 Kami of Ancient Law
Needles to stop...most things (fetchlands, togs, seismic assaults), Putrefy for Creature/Artifact hate, Kami of Ancient Law for Enchantment hate, Kataki for artifact hate that also beats on the side.
Okay, long post but I had to decide that I like zoo first. Check.
-blsl
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I won't advocate the running of any 3-4cc creatures. This deck DESPERATELY needs to be swinging for the face asap. You can't do that good enough with dropping Troll turn 3, as opposed to doing something like Lions and Wolf, or Grim, Lions, and Hound, or something retarded like that.
Lavamancer costs only R to activate (besides removing the cards, of course). It's a recursive damage source that can slip out under countermagic and gives you more outs against any matchup. There's no way I'd take Grimmy out.
No. Cloak is VERY good. It single-handedly can swing an aggro matchup. Cloak changes the math for any deck that wants you beat you by turning men sideways, and that's way too good to pass up.
This is an aggressive deck. It has a low mana curve and a pretty high threat density. Why would you gum that up by playing a Fog effect?
Not supported by the mana, IMO. Your curve effectively stops at 2. A few 3-drops is fine; anything beyond that is asking more of the manabase than it was designed to do.
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'Mancer I just don't know about. It's not the mana more than "Will there be enough cards in the yard to merit running four of him?". Is there usually?
I said Cloak is good and I meant it, but as a 2-of, I just don't see it as being reliable enough, but on that note I'd have no problem if it were a 3- or 4-of.
MP is a personal preference. Do you notice a complete lack of fliers in the deck? Because I do. Needle Storm would be a good substitute but the curve is a bit much. You would prefer Firebolt maybe?
Hierarch might not have the mana base, you're right. But he's the only thing in the 4-slot. He swung the curve a total of 2 cards, and I'd rather have (possible) late-game versatility than more of the same aggro that my opponent probably has figured out.
Good points all around, though. Reiterating, this was stuff that looked good on paper. We know how that goes, eh.
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