Basic idea is clear, it's an Eldritch Evolution deck with 4 extra copies of Evolution. But Neoform being 2cmc inspires me to try to make the deck run as fast as possible. So you want a same-turn kill from Griselbrand-->Shoals-->second Rider+Neoform/Evolution into Borborygmos and dump your lands.
Zacama is carefully chosen based on Griselbrand math. +9 life from starting is two more activations. By the time higher cmcs offer more value, you've drawn your whole deck anyway (minus 3 cards). This is extremely convenient, because it also means Zacama can be Evolutioned from Rider, and either Neoformed or Evolutioned from Griselbrand/Borborygmos.
Summoner's Pact is Riders 5-8 so that we have full redundancy of both combo pieces; and fetches Zacama for Shoal.
Summoning Trap provides protection at one of two vulnerable points in the combo: casting Rider, and casting Neoform. Removal cannot stop the combo since we get to hold priority once Rider is out, and then sacrifice it as part of the cost of the spell. Removal on Griselbrand or Borborygmos can be troublesome, but we can finish their parts in the combo at instant speed in response. If Neoform is countered, you're in trouble but if Rider is countered you at least have the chance to back it up by cheating a free fatty into play.
I don't like the land setup; fetches and shocks affect Griselbrand math and it's difficult to balance the numbers between Borborygmos and so many pitch cards. Simian Spirit Guide feels iffy. He only works with Evolution or Manamorphose, but a fast mana effect is needed to go off Turn 1 or 2, or else it isn't possible to play the second Neoform. I may possibly go to 3 SSG. Another option is adding some number of Fire-lit Thickets to provide a filter.
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Super rough list. I like the idea of Dryad Arbor doubling as green creature. I'm not sure if borborygmos is needed or not. Seems like it might take up too many slots because you need manamorphose in the deck. Any argument to wild Cantor? It ramps early or filters Spirit guides into any color to combo off later? Also my argument against Borby is you need to draw enough after GBrand to make him, but you also need to make sure you still have a copy of him left in the deck so it really wants you to play a bunch of him even though he's bad outside of combo
Borborygmos is the best possible one-turn kill for the deck. He pitches to Shoal for 8, which is highly important and makes him a potential Pact target; drawn copies pitch to Rider unlike Lightning Storm; he can be hit off Trap; you don't need to draw him when you go off; and as a second Neoform/Evolution target you can chain straight into him when Griselbrand won't work or chain him into Zacama if you can't finish the kill.
Cantor is a solid option, possibly as a singleton to target with Pact if one feels brave.
Blue draw is extremely rough in a deck already running 4 SSG and trying to support 8 green pitch spells. If you want turn 1 plays I would look into the one drops that dig 5 for a creature, to find Rider.
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Chancellors are basically always worth it in Pitch World decks. They pitch to Shoals for a lot, affect the gamestate for free, and are solid if they ever come down for some reason. I probably wouldn't bother with the Spires, but I also don't know that a blue Pitch World deck would be cohesive at all anyway.
Tangle especially is fast mana and a 7-point Shoal, which is exactly a Griselbrand activation from any life total. If anything happens to land him in play (a bad Trap flip I guess?), he chains smoothly to 8 just like Rider.
I strongly believe Borborygmos is the best wincon for the reasons above.
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Makes sense. Isn't there a UG split card of some sort that digs 5 deep for a dude? I can't remember the name. I agree with your arguments though for borborygmos over storm. I can also see why you just straight up don't need Mandrills especially since it doesn't do anything with Neoform. Like I said, my list was literally me in 5 minutes just coming up with a really rough draft. Is summoning trap worth it? Also Zacama? Is he better than Wurm? I guess the land untap ability is important to be able to Neoform again? I'm just not sure why I want to get him over borborygmos ever unless I need to beat like a revoker or needle effect
Makes sense. Isn't there a UG split card of some sort that digs 5 deep for a dude? I can't remember the name. I agree with your arguments though for borborygmos over storm. I can also see why you just straight up don't need Mandrills especially since it doesn't do anything with Neoform. Like I said, my list was literally me in 5 minutes just coming up with a really rough draft. Is summoning trap worth it? Also Zacama? Is he better than Wurm? I guess the land untap ability is important to be able to Neoform again? I'm just not sure why I want to get him over borborygmos ever unless I need to beat like a revoker or needle effect
You're thinking of Incubation // Incongruity. Probably at home here, Removal casting mode is relevant sometimes as well, and unconditional removal that exiles is a healthy thing to have in any maindeck.
I tried the Borborygmos Enraged and Manamorphose + Wild Cantor win con last night. While more green cards and better cantrips pre-combo are pretty nice, I found I need 3 Borbos in order to feel comfortable with my odds that I can cheat out Borbo before all of them disappear from my library, and I found that 1 See Beyond was still good (if pricey) insurance against being unable to cheat out Borbo. The nasty part is that 2 Manamorphose didn't feel like quite enough, as my combo turn got shakier whenever I exiled Manamorphose to Allosaurus Rider or spent Manamorphose pre-combo.
The bad thing about Expedite (the card I ditched to test the new win con) is that it requires a target and is lame pre-combo. The good thing about Expedite is that it is a way to gain life (indirectly) that isn't named Nourishing Shoal.
Those reasons are why I started out with all 4 Borborygmos and all 4 Manamorphose. They're both essentially "free" slots; Borborygmos because he has so many places within the combo, and Manamorphose because it's literally a free card.
I would never bother with Expedite; if you have to untap with an 8/8 Griselbrand because you couldn't get there, that's fine. It's not worth shoving in narrow, non-green cards that only function at a point when your mana is already a premium resource.
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So this might sound crazy and I’m sorry for any poor grammar as I am on mobile. What if this played out like reanimator. Do we need to combo? Like just get a griselbrand or a fatty into play and protect it. This isn’t Goryos where it is going away. This griselbrand is here to stay. Curious t anyone that has done testing. Can we make the deck better by just making a fatty and attacking? I don’t know what the list looks like at that point. Just throwing it out there.
That's a solid plan in general with the original build. Like Legacy reanimator, you can simply get Griselbrand out, and then whether you try to combo that turn depends on the amount of pressure and likelihood of interaction. If they can't do anything about your giant demon you just have a huge value creature, and if they attempt to remove it you start to combo off in response.
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That's a solid plan in general with the original build. Like Legacy reanimator, you can simply get Griselbrand out, and then whether you try to combo that turn depends on the amount of pressure and likelihood of interaction. If they can't do anything about your giant demon you just have a huge value creature, and if they attempt to remove it you start to combo off in response.
Given the "don't combo off unless you have to" strategy (seems sound enough so you can get more life and mana for the combo turn), which win con would be the best? I'd suspect an instant-speed win con would be better, just in case they opt to kill Griselbrand on their turn (or worse, kill you on their turn). Otherwise, it's back to figuring out the optimal turn to fire off the combo or just win ASAP.
Also, it seems that you still need an ability to combo off that turn in case you go for the Turn 2 win with Summoner's Pact for Allosaurus Rider.
I would still use Borborygmos as the win condition, because no instant speed wincon fits into the combo as well. The idea behind being able to hold the combo isn't that you should always wait or always go for it, it's optimizing the ability to do both. If you feel pressured, or expect that you can just make it, you should push for the Turn 1 or 2. If you feel like Griselbrand is safe, or your hand is shakier; or for instance if you are up against Burn or similar where dumping 21 life at a time is dangerous, you can hold out and just have a big dumb flying lifelink man. The way that holding the combo would work is to start chaining activations and Shoals in response to whatever they do to interact; if they were threatening it the turn you Neoformed, you should be going off during your main phase anyway. If they do it on their turn, you won't have to discard to 7 and you can just untap with mana and the combo in hand.
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Have you tried some number of Bound // Determined in this build? I'm trying various Dinosaur Wrangler builds right now (my preferred name for this deck), and I find that they can be a bit slow at finding the combo sometimes. Bound // Determined is a cantrip (so it can help you dig for the combo), it's 7 cmc and green (so it pitches to Nourishing Shoal well), it's also black (so it pitches to Soul Spike well), and it even staves off counterspells. I'm concerned that 4 Iname as One don't dig for the combo well enough.
Have you tried some number of Bound // Determined in this build? I'm trying various Dinosaur Wrangler builds right now (my preferred name for this deck), and I find that they can be a bit slow at finding the combo sometimes. Bound // Determined is a cantrip (so it can help you dig for the combo), it's 7 cmc and green (so it pitches to Nourishing Shoal well), it's also black (so it pitches to Soul Spike well), and it even staves off counterspells. I'm concerned that 4 Iname as One don't dig for the combo well enough.
I think I'd rather just run something like spell pierce or something to protect the combo. Hitting 4 mana is rough, and there's still plenty of cards that pitch to shoal, spike, and allosaurus rider.
I tried the Borborygmos Enraged and Manamorphose + Wild Cantor win con last night. While more green cards and better cantrips pre-combo are pretty nice, I found I need 3 Borbos in order to feel comfortable with my odds that I can cheat out Borbo before all of them disappear from my library, and I found that 1 See Beyond was still good (if pricey) insurance against being unable to cheat out Borbo. The nasty part is that 2 Manamorphose didn't feel like quite enough, as my combo turn got shakier whenever I exiled Manamorphose to Allosaurus Rider or spent Manamorphose pre-combo.
See Beyond looks cute, I feel like there's still a chance you can kill with Griselbrand. We tend to forget he can attack !
The London Mulligan Rule really helps to get rid of a Griz or Borbo in the opening hand, and on the other hand I don't feel like Chancellor does anything, it's too hard to go off on turn 1, especially without the right Spirit Guide.
If we had Elvish Spirit Guide in the format, that would be a whole different deck. As is, Simian Spirit Guide is awkward and in my first reps, I didn't feel like 4 Manamorphoses were even enough. I too like the Wild Cantor as more color conversion, and also Incubation // Incongruity as a way to dig for Rider (especially the second one), and all those cards are pitchable to Rider. It's a bit underwhelming overall.
I wonder whether Elves is a better home for that combo (with Craterhoof as the kill), as it was tested when Evo was spoiled.
Huh, headminerve, I've never had trouble finding the second Allosaurus Rider mid-combo. It's the first Allosaurus pre-combo that's a pain to get.
Given the sheer speed and strength of the hate permanents that this deck needs to rebuff (Grafdigger's Cage is probably the worst offender, but anti-search gets annoying fast, Mistcaller can tear us a new one--especially if Vialed in response, one-spell-a-turn effects slow us down enough that Allosaurus bites it to removal before we can cheat in anything), I think Serum Visions will be a staple in this deck simply because it is so good at digging for anything.
I experienced bad luck with the deck then ! No Rider in the top 14 after I landed a Griz feels bad, obviously I have not enough reps to claim the 2nd Rider is harder to find, rather that Incubation helps not fizzling midcombo.
The card can dig for Reclamation Sage post-SB, but not for a cheap creature "fighter" (I think there's none printed in green yet). The Incongruity part can deal with Mistcaller or other hatebear of any kind though.
Food for thought.
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I can add two things to this deck that could make it better.
1. Conflagrate : we have drawn 20 cards after pitching 1 Shoal, we can just throw away our monkeys for the win
2. Some decks play 1 Leyline of Sanctity main. It would probably be wise to have some type of Art/Enchant removal main such as 1 Nature's Claim. The 4 life won't matter if you discard 24 cards to Conflagrate or 8 lands to Borborymos.
I can add two things to this deck that could make it better.
1. Conflagrate : we have drawn 20 cards after pitching 1 Shoal, we can just throw away our monkeys for the win
2. Some decks play 1 Leyline of Sanctity main. It would probably be wise to have some type of Art/Enchant removal main such as 1 Nature's Claim. The 4 life won't matter if you discard 24 cards to Conflagrate or 8 lands to Borborymos.
Thoughts?
I don't like Conflagrate in this deck. This deck's strengths are its ability to completely ignore graveyard hate (not named Grafdigger's Cage or perhaps Surgical Extraction on Nourishing Shoal), its sheer rate of Turn 2 wins, and its ability to win with a flying 7/7 with Lifelink that cannot do anything else (I've found not using Griselbrand's draw ability to be viable against Burn as long as they don't resolve Skullcrack). Using Conflagrate as the win con suddenly makes us weak to close to all forms of graveyard hate.
As for your Leyline of Sanctity worries, I haven't seen that maindecked in a while (even Bogles is dropping it), and I've seen far more maindeck Witchbane Orbs lately. This deck has enough consistency problems (especially after targeted discard and counterspells) that I don't think we can afford to maindeck permanent hate that doesn't cantrip and isn't on an 8-cmc fatty (although I guess being green helps Nature's Claim's case).
In no way does conflagration make us weak to gy hate. We still have priority after casting it. A main deck terastodon would be a nice play. Should the opponent have anything to prevent us from griselbranding them. It’s an 8 a green dude so it can be shoaled. And it can win games via Neoform on its own. Just be careful to not get it after pacting.
In no way does conflagration make us weak to gy hate. We still have priority after casting it. A main deck terastodon would be a nice play. Should the opponent have anything to prevent us from griselbranding them. It’s an 8 a green dude so it can be shoaled. And it can win games via Neoform on its own. Just be careful to not get it after pacting.
After thinking about Conflagrate some more, you're right in that our ability to hold priority and flash it back immediately does make it practically immune to graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Rakdos Charm. However, because it needs to be flashed back, Conflagrate is still hosed by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, and I am not interested in becoming weak to those cards when we have other win cons that dodge them.
Typically no one will have grave hate game one. The game plan game two doesn’t have to be all in combo. You can grab a different fatty like emperyial archangel, white or red akroma based on the matchup. Or just clock them with terrastodon if they have something to lock you out of graveyard. Alternatively you can play a wild cantor and a natures claim and just kill their piece before winning. We just need to be careful about not getting shoal surgicalled.
4 Neoform
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Griselbrand
4 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoning Trap
4 Nourishing Shoal
2 Zacama, Primal Calamity
2 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Forest
Basic idea is clear, it's an Eldritch Evolution deck with 4 extra copies of Evolution. But Neoform being 2cmc inspires me to try to make the deck run as fast as possible. So you want a same-turn kill from Griselbrand-->Shoals-->second Rider+Neoform/Evolution into Borborygmos and dump your lands.
Zacama is carefully chosen based on Griselbrand math. +9 life from starting is two more activations. By the time higher cmcs offer more value, you've drawn your whole deck anyway (minus 3 cards). This is extremely convenient, because it also means Zacama can be Evolutioned from Rider, and either Neoformed or Evolutioned from Griselbrand/Borborygmos.
Summoner's Pact is Riders 5-8 so that we have full redundancy of both combo pieces; and fetches Zacama for Shoal.
Summoning Trap provides protection at one of two vulnerable points in the combo: casting Rider, and casting Neoform. Removal cannot stop the combo since we get to hold priority once Rider is out, and then sacrifice it as part of the cost of the spell. Removal on Griselbrand or Borborygmos can be troublesome, but we can finish their parts in the combo at instant speed in response. If Neoform is countered, you're in trouble but if Rider is countered you at least have the chance to back it up by cheating a free fatty into play.
I don't like the land setup; fetches and shocks affect Griselbrand math and it's difficult to balance the numbers between Borborygmos and so many pitch cards. Simian Spirit Guide feels iffy. He only works with Evolution or Manamorphose, but a fast mana effect is needed to go off Turn 1 or 2, or else it isn't possible to play the second Neoform. I may possibly go to 3 SSG. Another option is adding some number of Fire-lit Thickets to provide a filter.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Nourishing Lich 9001:
Maindeck (60)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Allosaurus Rider
2 Griselbrand
4 Autochthon Wurm
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Adventurous Impulse
4 Neoform Thing
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Eldritch Evolution
2 Lightning Storm
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
Super rough list. I like the idea of Dryad Arbor doubling as green creature. I'm not sure if borborygmos is needed or not. Seems like it might take up too many slots because you need manamorphose in the deck. Any argument to wild Cantor? It ramps early or filters Spirit guides into any color to combo off later? Also my argument against Borby is you need to draw enough after GBrand to make him, but you also need to make sure you still have a copy of him left in the deck so it really wants you to play a bunch of him even though he's bad outside of combo
Cantor is a solid option, possibly as a singleton to target with Pact if one feels brave.
Blue draw is extremely rough in a deck already running 4 SSG and trying to support 8 green pitch spells. If you want turn 1 plays I would look into the one drops that dig 5 for a creature, to find Rider.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Tangle especially is fast mana and a 7-point Shoal, which is exactly a Griselbrand activation from any life total. If anything happens to land him in play (a bad Trap flip I guess?), he chains smoothly to 8 just like Rider.
I strongly believe Borborygmos is the best wincon for the reasons above.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
You're thinking of Incubation // Incongruity. Probably at home here, Removal casting mode is relevant sometimes as well, and unconditional removal that exiles is a healthy thing to have in any maindeck.
The bad thing about Expedite (the card I ditched to test the new win con) is that it requires a target and is lame pre-combo. The good thing about Expedite is that it is a way to gain life (indirectly) that isn't named Nourishing Shoal.
I would never bother with Expedite; if you have to untap with an 8/8 Griselbrand because you couldn't get there, that's fine. It's not worth shoving in narrow, non-green cards that only function at a point when your mana is already a premium resource.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Given the "don't combo off unless you have to" strategy (seems sound enough so you can get more life and mana for the combo turn), which win con would be the best? I'd suspect an instant-speed win con would be better, just in case they opt to kill Griselbrand on their turn (or worse, kill you on their turn). Otherwise, it's back to figuring out the optimal turn to fire off the combo or just win ASAP.
Also, it seems that you still need an ability to combo off that turn in case you go for the Turn 2 win with Summoner's Pact for Allosaurus Rider.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
1 Forest
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
2 Griselbrand
4 Nourishing Shoal
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Soul Spike
4 Iname as One
4 Serum Visions
4 Allosaurus Rider
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Neoform
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Seismic Assault
3 Gigadrowse
2 Fatal Push
1 Void Snare
2 Echoing Truth
3 Spell Pierce
4 Chalice of the Void
Have you tried some number of Bound // Determined in this build? I'm trying various Dinosaur Wrangler builds right now (my preferred name for this deck), and I find that they can be a bit slow at finding the combo sometimes. Bound // Determined is a cantrip (so it can help you dig for the combo), it's 7 cmc and green (so it pitches to Nourishing Shoal well), it's also black (so it pitches to Soul Spike well), and it even staves off counterspells. I'm concerned that 4 Iname as One don't dig for the combo well enough.
I think I'd rather just run something like spell pierce or something to protect the combo. Hitting 4 mana is rough, and there's still plenty of cards that pitch to shoal, spike, and allosaurus rider.
See Beyond looks cute, I feel like there's still a chance you can kill with Griselbrand. We tend to forget he can attack !
The London Mulligan Rule really helps to get rid of a Griz or Borbo in the opening hand, and on the other hand I don't feel like Chancellor does anything, it's too hard to go off on turn 1, especially without the right Spirit Guide.
If we had Elvish Spirit Guide in the format, that would be a whole different deck. As is, Simian Spirit Guide is awkward and in my first reps, I didn't feel like 4 Manamorphoses were even enough. I too like the Wild Cantor as more color conversion, and also Incubation // Incongruity as a way to dig for Rider (especially the second one), and all those cards are pitchable to Rider. It's a bit underwhelming overall.
I wonder whether Elves is a better home for that combo (with Craterhoof as the kill), as it was tested when Evo was spoiled.
I'm trying reps with this list :
3 Borborygmos Enraged
2 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Wild Cantor
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Neoform
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Incubation // Incongruity
4 Serum Visions
2 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
Given the sheer speed and strength of the hate permanents that this deck needs to rebuff (Grafdigger's Cage is probably the worst offender, but anti-search gets annoying fast, Mistcaller can tear us a new one--especially if Vialed in response, one-spell-a-turn effects slow us down enough that Allosaurus bites it to removal before we can cheat in anything), I think Serum Visions will be a staple in this deck simply because it is so good at digging for anything.
The card can dig for Reclamation Sage post-SB, but not for a cheap creature "fighter" (I think there's none printed in green yet). The Incongruity part can deal with Mistcaller or other hatebear of any kind though.
Food for thought.
1. Conflagrate : we have drawn 20 cards after pitching 1 Shoal, we can just throw away our monkeys for the win
2. Some decks play 1 Leyline of Sanctity main. It would probably be wise to have some type of Art/Enchant removal main such as 1 Nature's Claim. The 4 life won't matter if you discard 24 cards to Conflagrate or 8 lands to Borborymos.
Thoughts?
I don't like Conflagrate in this deck. This deck's strengths are its ability to completely ignore graveyard hate (not named Grafdigger's Cage or perhaps Surgical Extraction on Nourishing Shoal), its sheer rate of Turn 2 wins, and its ability to win with a flying 7/7 with Lifelink that cannot do anything else (I've found not using Griselbrand's draw ability to be viable against Burn as long as they don't resolve Skullcrack). Using Conflagrate as the win con suddenly makes us weak to close to all forms of graveyard hate.
As for your Leyline of Sanctity worries, I haven't seen that maindecked in a while (even Bogles is dropping it), and I've seen far more maindeck Witchbane Orbs lately. This deck has enough consistency problems (especially after targeted discard and counterspells) that I don't think we can afford to maindeck permanent hate that doesn't cantrip and isn't on an 8-cmc fatty (although I guess being green helps Nature's Claim's case).
After thinking about Conflagrate some more, you're right in that our ability to hold priority and flash it back immediately does make it practically immune to graveyard hate like Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Rakdos Charm. However, because it needs to be flashed back, Conflagrate is still hosed by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void, and I am not interested in becoming weak to those cards when we have other win cons that dodge them.